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Reply with quote  #151 

For the want of making myself terribly unpopular I just want to have a say on this.  I have known Elaine for quite a few years now, I have met her and seen her dogs, we have corresponded on a weekly basis for a number of years.  I judge people on my own experiences, I have never heard Elaine say or write a bad word about anyone, including Julie, or their dogs.  Even if she is beaten.  She has always been lovely to talk too.  I have seen her dogs at two shows, one was the MA Ch. Show, and the other was Crufts,  there was no aggression shown to other dogs by hers at all.  There was no aggression shown by the humans present either.

I think the dogs I saw under her prefix were lovely, especially Crouching Tiger. 

I will always make up my own mind about people and what I know from my experiences with them.  We have a breeder here who I dont get on with at all, we dislike each other intensely, but that is my opinion of her and she has hers of me, but that is between us, I am not going to go into it with anyone else at all, our relationship can get quite volatile at times, I am good friends with friends of hers though and I could not care less about their friendship with her because that is between them.

I am sorry when anyone has a bad experience with another, but the person you are speaking about does not even sound like the Elaine I know. 

Janine.



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Reply with quote  #152 

Thank you Tamara and Janine for sharing you good experiences --it gives people an opportunity to see people can treat one another different.  Everyone must always make up their own minds.

 

I do want to ask both of you some questions.  Were you aware of the suspension and what the charges were and what happened at the meeting?  Were you aware of the Skin Heads and their bats and the Vanity Plates on their car?  Were you aware of the Threats made to two families.  Were you aware of the issue of DNA?  Where you aware of the uncontrollable dogs sent here and destroyed?  If you answer YES to any of these questions--Please do not tell me --for I have too much respect for you both.



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Reply with quote  #153 

I am not aware of any of that stuff Deb, what I am aware of is only what I know from my own experiences.  Nothing I have ever heard from Elaine in person or read in her emails contains anything malicious.  I do know the number plates NEVER represented the KKK as in white sheets etc.  It meant something totally innocent.  I have a friend here whose last three numbers are 666 but she is not a devil worshiper.  I know of others being removed from the OEMC for things I did not think were all that serious at all, actually things that had been said on a list and removed and made public.  I DO know Elaine is the Secretary of the MA, travels thousands of miles and is working her butt off for the club and as we all know, these positions are voluntary.  I DO know that when she has a litter she shares everything with me and I have laughed and cried with her.   The Elaine I know is a lovely woman.  There are others both here and of course in the UK who know her and not once have I heard a bad word about her.  The opposite in fact, she is quite popular.

 

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Reply with quote  #154 

for someone's pictorial pedigree

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!



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Reply with quote  #155 

I've never seen a Greco pedigree with this dog in it......Interesting...

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #156 

I believe that she is looking for Greco's Hollesley Rogue to be exact.

It's quite possible that the above mentioned dog was never bred.

 

If you or anyone have a photo, Carrie would much appreciate it!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #157 

Hey Deb, As I said previously I corresponded with Elaine for 18 months prior to getting our boy. I took the idea of importing seriously, and also the took a long time to make sure this was the bloodline I wanted to bring in to my own. I was informed of 2 dogs owned by the same people that were aggressive. But I also spoke to many other Mastiff enthusiast from abroad who had attended shows with Elaines dogs over the years and I spoke with many other people that had her dogs. All the responses I received were very positive and all relayed the dogs they had or had encountered at shows were very stable minded.  

 I had never heard of anyone being threatened. Elaine informed me of the KKK plates at some point, but assured me it had no tie to the racist organization here, and was for Knight (their last name) Kumormai and Klansman. I have never heard it mentioned elsewhere. 

 

I can only tell you that Elaine has been nothing but pleasant with me. Very attentive to any questions I had, and always quick to respond to any news, pictures I sent of Koba. She has remained in contact and always shares pics of Koba's relatives.

 

Our Kumormai boy has never met a person he did not just wiggle with excitement to meet.  In obedience class he has always remained very calm even when other dogs jumped at him aggressively.

 

 I can only speak of my own experience, and that is for the last 4 1/2 years, Elaine has never been anything but kind to me, and always seems genuinely interested in our boy.  

 

 



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Reply with quote  #158 

Ken, with respect, and no yelling, for someone who seems to "live in fear" of the Knights you are doing a pretty good job of publicly condemning them.  As for living so far away from the UK, that really makes no difference, I correspond and ring the UK often.  The mastiff world is small.  I am not an idiot Ken, please do not think of me as such, you have come into this thread ranting and raving about Elaine and Ken and I have defended someone whom I believe is a good friend.  There is no snow job happening here.  If there were, I dont  believe Elaine could keep up such a good pretense for so many years.  Any why have I not heard about her evil deeds from anyone else? 

Betty Baxter for instance, she is family to me, I not only have the utmost respect for her I also love her like a sister, I am very proud to say she has been one my closest friends for many many years, she has stayed with me and I have stayed with her we ring each other weekly.  Not once has she said anything bad about Elaine or her dogs.  Quite the contrary.

I do know Jason Colebrook, and I know exactly why he was "removed" from the MCOV.  By bringing this into the conversation I can see you have no idea because there is no relationship what so ever between what you say happened with Elaine and that.  I am not going to go into it because it is none of your business or anyone else's for that matter. 

You have had your say, I have had mine and we will have to agree to disagree on this point. 

And as I also stated, I have not yelled my response to you, unless the capital button on your computer is stuck I ask you to show me the same respect.

Janine.

 



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Reply with quote  #159 

One more thing Ken, Elaine only took on the responsibility of Secretary after the tragic and untimely death of Karen Olsen, no one else stepped up to the plate. 

Also, back to Jason, there is no Mastiff Club of Australia, it is the Mastiff Club of Victoria.  Sorry, I just like facts to be right.

Janine.

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Reply with quote  #160 

A weighty subject.........c1977

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!



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Reply with quote  #161 

Firstly and for sure lastly, Deanne, if you want to put that on your number plate by all means do, perhaps you could follow it with YOU.  Did you ever think that KKK means nothing to us because we dont have a problem with them, they are nothing here and I am sure it is the same in Scotland.  I would never have given this a thought, I did not even know they still existed.  But I suppose when you are trying to destroy someone you will look for anything.   

Ken, fine,  so you have had your problems with the Knights, live with it, I believe what I know and you believe what you know.  You have certainly got your pound of flesh in the complete slagging you have given them here.

As for not being "in the loop" here, think what you want, I was on the committee for years myself and I know what happened, YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT.  READ THAT OK.

I bought Betty's name into it because she is not an idiot either, she is one of the smartest people I know, I was making the POINT that she has never said a bad word about Elaine either.  Are you going to tell me she has no credibility either?

You dont seem to be able to allow others to have a point of view, your cronies just get down right rude and abusive, all I have done or said was to put my point across in regards to sticking up for someone I consider a good friend.  You attack my credibility yet you dont know me, says a lot for you  Ken, someone has a different point and they are the worst in the world, you seem to think you know all about Jason and you know nothing of it, your words are your own testimony to this. 

And why dont you just use a bigger font instead of the CAPITALS, not yelling be damned.  I wear glasses too mate.  I can still type in a civilised manner.

If you want the last say on this go ahead.  If your friends want to jump in with anymore such constructive comments by all means go ahead as well, this can go around and around.  I said we will agree to disagree, this is over as far as I am concerned.  I came here to talk dogs, not destroy people.

Janine.

 

 

GatehseMstf

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Reply with quote  #162 

Looks like he SHOULD weigh about 200 pounds.  Poor dog. 

 


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Carrie Klaiber - Gatehouse Mastiffs
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #163 

Deanne,

 

I believe that you are saying ( correct me if I'm wrong ) that ignorance is not an excuse.

 

That said, I believe that Janine is saying, that a license plate which reads I.R.A. in America, could stand for a tax sheltered way of investing. In Ireland, that same plate could mean, the Irish Republican Army!

 

The swastika, in some American Indian tribes, means one thing and in Nazi Germany it meant another!

 

I'm not taking sides, just clarifying a point is all.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #164 

I AM SO MAD RIGHT NOW--The INDIAN was frist--Is nothing SACRED--Everything is stolen.  BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!

 

I was just wondering if you got Jason's dog from Elain and had a vested interest?  It does not matter.  I respect both you and Tamara.

 

Steve if you have magical powers--You got them from us and you may get them removed.

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #165 

Jason was in a NEMF c1977 newsletter. It's from my personal artifacts.

 

After it was published in 1977, pork belly prices started to tumble!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #166 

The INDIANS may give the powers back to you but we had them first--LOL

alexander121

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Reply with quote  #167 

Hello. My name is Sue Hill. I am one off only 2 black people who show mastiffs in the UK. I can a sure everyone from the USA, that Elaine as no problem with black people over here. I was once going to buy a puppy from Ken, but that didn't happen and there are no hard feeling between us over that. I would have no problem looking at her Kennel again.

May I point out that I am not a close friend of the Knights, but  have had a few phone calls about what you are writing. It was only last weekend that I chatting to Elaine at the ring side, about her new puppies. Which may I say I would have at the drop of a hat. 

This forum is here to talk about dogs. I do find this all very upsetting and would ask that you go back to what the main topic was. MASTIFFS.

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Reply with quote  #168 

"Let me open by saying Ken is not a her."

Elaine's husband's name is Ken.  "Her" kennel, I believe, meant the Knights collectively. 

 

 


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Carrie Klaiber - Gatehouse Mastiffs


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Reply with quote  #169 

I too have received the message and will not speak on this again.  People should always feel safe. 

Margaret

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Reply with quote  #170 

How sad it is that so often the benefit of the internet is misused to spread inaccurate and defamatory rubbish about people that the perpetrators have no real long term personal knowledge about. Elaine and Ken Knight are respected and successful breeders of quality mastiffs and have been so for a long time. I have been to many shows over the years, and indeed have judged their progeny, and never have I seen aggression in their dogs.

 

Before you pass judgement on the breeder I suggest you look carefully at the environment and handling of the dogs who you say have had to be destroyed due to temperament problems. Aggression is only 30% inherited - the rest is upbringing.

 

From a personal level we have known Ken & Elaine for over 15 years and have always found them both to be polite and friendly to everyone around the rings. They are a very nice family with well mannered and decently brought up children.  They care a lot for their dogs and are careful where they place them.

 

Incidentally, I have never read anything so down right daft as the KKK discussion. Thank goodness we DONT have that particularly ignorant racialist problem in the UK. I can tell you that there are thousands of vehicles on our roads with KKK on their registration plates. If you wish to have one there are at this moment in time 609 KKK plates for sale on the UK Vehicle Licencing Site.

 

There are many real problems facing the mastiff world and I would suggest that you would be far better to spend your time doing something positive to help rather than enjoying yourselves trying to destroy for no other reason than sheer vindictiveness. The mastiff breed deserves better.  

 

 Margaret Bromley

 



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Reply with quote  #171 

Margaret,

Thank you.

Janine. 

Caroline

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Reply with quote  #172 

I have never posted a message on any forum site before but felt I could not let this one go without a reply to some of the malicious comments made here regarding Ken and Elaine Knight.

 

Firstly I live in the UK, am a member of the OEMC and of the MA.  In fact I have just been co-opted on to the committee of the MA.  I have known Ken and Elaine Knight for many years and have over the course of time become very close friends.  One of my dogs is a Kumormai (who is the most gorgeous boy)  and I would never hesitate to purchase a puppy from them again.  My husband and I go to shows, meet lots of the other mastiff people and hope we have many friends in both clubs.   I have encountered many examples of their breeding and they have all been, without exception, wonderful in both look and temperament.  I am not going to go into specifics or to speak to any one person in particular but I would like to add my support for Ken and Elaine and to say that I think the comments that have been made about them are the unkindest and most malevolent things I have read in a very long time. 

 

I have to say that I have always found Ken and Elaine to be the nicest people and have the most gorgeous dogs.  When I first met them (on buying my puppy) they were very kind and extremely helpful.  They checked me out thoroughly as a prospective owner and thankfully I passed. Over the years we have built up a strong friendship and Elaine and I are particularly close now. 

 

With regard the criticism of aggression in their breeding, you certainly could not keep as many dogs as they have without them having the most genial of natures.  Elaine has stayed with me on two occasions when she has brought several of her dogs with her for showing.  I have a full male and female (6.5 and 7 years respectively).  She brought with her last time one full male, a bitch and another dog puppy (7 months).  They came into my home, lived with my two for two days and two nights and not once did we have a problem either with feeding, sleeping or when we went out walking as a group.  If there was any behavioral problems I am sure it would have come to light on one or more of these occasions.  My boy was a perfect host (apart from when Charlie the puppy ran off with one of his cuddly toys) and showed his guests around the house and grounds.  (My girl slept through most of it!!!)

 

My other concern is how anyone who lives in another country can be quite so sure what goes on here!  Some of the messages have laid claim to knowing what goes on in our clubs - my feeling is that unless you are actually present at the meetings or shows etc., you cannot be a judge of what is happening.  Neither should you be so quick to quote from some third party as it being the truth! Gossip should be left as precisely that - not quoted on the Internet as if you had actually been there!!

 

May I add my thanks to all who have spoken up for Elaine and Ken and hopefully put to rest this unmitigated drivel once and for all. 

 

Caroline Hesketh



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Reply with quote  #173 

Let it go or I will not.

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Reply with quote  #174 

I'm sure the 3 owners of the aggressive dogs that had to be destroyed do not feel it is " unmitigated drivel." I know one of the ladies- Nancy Garber of GA. was devasted to the point of not getting another Mastiff ! I met her because she bought a Frenchie from us.

According to her, she tried getting support from Elaine before the dog was put down. And had extensive training done in an attempt to change the dog's behavior. All to no avail. ( Oh, and Nancy had previous experience in Mastiffs too, she was not a novice!!)

Bad temperments can happen with these dogs either through genetics, or an inexperienced owner.

Regardless of all that, to this day I am leery of any breeder who offers NO GUARANTEE With pups they sell. That is way to chancey to deal with in my book!


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Gloria Davis


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Reply with quote  #175 

Let's all make a deal here--Everyone stop--not a good thing here--Let everyone go about their business--No one is out to destroy kennels or Dogs here--people have vested interest.

 

Let all do their own work in getting dogs.  If any one has doubts on anything when importing from any kennel any where in the world to the USA insist on DNA and no one anywhere will have any doubts.



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Reply with quote  #176 

I agree, stop this now, but one last point, Kumormai have more DNA tests on record that any other kennel in the UK.  Last count was about 30 dogs done.

Janine.

Keith

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Reply with quote  #177 

My wife and myself have known Elaine Knight for approximately 18 years. In fact one of her base stud dogs was bred by us Ch. Tresylyan Brogan. In that time I have judged her dogs and awarded some of them top honours. My daughter and myself have handled her dogs occasionally and at no time have we seen or heard of her with a vicious dog. I have been to her house and have witnessed the way in which her dogs live together in harmony and no way can any of them be vicious.

 

We have lately used one of her stud dogs Ch. Kumormai As Good As It Gets and are all very proud of the litter he has thrown.

 

On another point it was stated that thr Mastiff Association was an off shoot of the parent club the OEMC. This is not true the MA is a completely separate and totaly autonomous club and is regulated by the Kennel Club as is the OEMC and every other club and society associated with the canine world in th UK. 

 

Keith Taylor

LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #178 

Keith - is there a link for your club that you could post here? I would love to "visit" without having to fly over there!!


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Linda Greeson Rice
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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".


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Reply with quote  #179 

Great post Keith, and welcome to the group.....It's nice to hear a different side..The Duck



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Reply with quote  #180 

Would you have Mr. Fletcher's' E-mail?



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Reply with quote  #181 

If the request to end this subject is sincere, I hope that asking for Elaines ex-husbands email is innocent!!!!

Janine.



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Reply with quote  #182 
Bump
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Reply with quote  #183 

"Thus went we on through their houses, or rather tents, and found many of those serpents alive, and they were tied by the feet and had a cord around their snouts, so that they could not open their mouths, as is done (in Europe) with mastiff-dogs so that they may not bite:"

 

c1497

From:

 

http://www.bartleby.com/43/3.html


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ShawnWierck

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Reply with quote  #184 
Though the history of mastiff breeders (and mastiffs themselves) is checkered... Buyer Beware.  I am a fan of art.  I love seeing old mastiff pictures and will continue to visit this thread for that reason.  (So long as Stever or someone else continues to post them!)
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #185 

c1887...... a good artist and a very typey mastiff!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #186 
Thanks for this one, it's nice.
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #187 
History The Dogue's history is believed to predate the Bullmastiff and the Bulldog. It is said that the Dogue can be found in the background of the Bullmastiff, and other claim the the Dogue and the Bullmastiff breeds were both being accomplished at the same time. Some believe that the Bulldog is the building block of the Dogue, and again, another group believes that the Bulldog was used in the breeding programs further down the line. Another theory, is that it originates from the Tibetan Mastiff. Dr. Raymond Triquet is quoted as saying: "It is often said that the common stem of all European Dogues was a big dog coming from the confines of India and China, more than 3000 years ago, and by stages would have gone from Thibet to Mesopotamia, there, where begins the history of men, then to Epire, small kingdom of ancient Molosse; then to Rome and from there to Gaule. He would have made this long journey by the side of conquerors, warriors, and merchants. It is possible that this prestigious connections part true, but let us not forget the fact, maybe preponderant, that archeologists have found in the land that would become France, bones of dogs dating from prehistory, bones that were those of a Dogue." There are notions that the Dogue has ties to the Alano, an extinct dog of Spain, similar in many ways to the Bordeaux. It is said that this dog was brought to Europe by the Alans, an Oriental tribe. It is also said the Bordeaux is related to the Greco-Roman mollosids used for war, as there was a breed similar to the Dogue de Bordeaux in Rome at the time of Julius Caesar's reign. This would make the Dogue a cousin to the Neapolitan Mastiff. Yet another theory suggests that the Dogue is a descendent of a breed which existed in France a long time ago. In France, the Dogues were bred depending on the region and jobs they were required to do. The general appearance was inconsistent, the Dogue had various colors and varieties of coat, they had scissors bites in some regions, undershot in others, but they all had a general type similar to today's Dogues. We do know the Dogue de Bordeaux was used as a guardian, a hunter, and a fighter. They were trained to bait bulls, bears, and jaguars; hunt boars; heard cattle; and protect the homes, butchershops and vineyards of their masters. The Dogue de Bordeaux were prized as protectors and were often found in the home of the noble and wealthy of France. During the French Revolution, many of the Dogues are thought to have perished with their wealthy masters during the uprising of the classes, but the Dogues of the common man must have thrived. These Dogues became the champions of the arena, and were powerful dogs bred to do their jobs and do them well. It was in 1863 when the first reference of the Dogue can be found, at the first canine exhibition at the Jardin d'Acclimatation in Paris, France. It was more of an inventory of breeds than a conformation event. The winner was a bitch named Magentas, and the Dogue de Bordeaux was given the name of the capital of their region of origin. There is not other known reference to the Dogue until the year 1883. There was such diversity in the breed at this time, and much controversy over this. They had big heads and small heads, some were exceptionally large in body, while others very small. Some breeders preferred the scissors bite, others the undershot. The mask color was the subject of many debates and discussions. There were three styles of Dogue at this time, the Toulouse, the Paris, and the Bordeaux. Our modern Dogue is a mixture of these different types, but is primarily Bordeaux. The Toulouse was a Dogue that had almost every color in its coat, a fawnish tiger (a light brindle perhaps), with a longer body and smaller bones. Dogues in Paris had a scissors bite, while others had a undershot of almost one inch. Finally the breeders came together and decided upon the undershot, which is today's standard. In 1895 a few breeders tried to establish the Dogue in England, and also that year, John Proctor or Antwerp, who had judged the Dogue de Bordeaux, published an account of his experiences with the "fighting dogs of the South of France" in the magazine, The Stock Keeper. In 1896, Pierre Mengin put together a synthesis of the best Dogue de Bordeaux shown and know from 1863-1895. He published Le Dogue de Bordeaux, that featured a description and characteristics true to the Dogue. This effort, put forward by Mr. Brooke, Mr. Mengin, Dr. Wiart, and a group of authorities in France, was the first standard of the Dogue de Bordeaux. In 1897, Henry de Bylants work, The Breeds of Dogs, introduced the breed standard to the world of dog breeders. J. Kunstler, Professor of Comparative Anatomy of the Science Facility of Bordeaux, studied the Dogues in 1907 and in 1910 published A Critique Etude du Dogue de Bordeaux (A Critical Study of the Dogue de Bordeaux). During the 1960's, Dr. Raymond Triquet headed the rebuilding of the breed, and in 1970, Dr. Triquet wrote the new standard for the Dogue de Bordeaux. The standard has once again been updated, this time by Dr. Triquet and Mr. Tim Taylor. The Dogue can also be credited to taking part in the breeding programs of two other mastiffs, the Argentine Dogo and the Tosa. Dr. Martinez, who bred "The Fighting Dogs of Cordoba" or the Argentine Dogo, used a menagerie of breeds to produce the Dogo, and the Bordeaux was used to increase the size of the head and accentuate the overall courage, strength and jaw strength. During the 1930's, the Bordeaux were imported to Japan to cross with the Tosa (Fighting Dog of Japan). This increased the head size and the overall body size of the Tosa. Prof Triquet notes the first dog recorded to be exported to the USA was Fidelle de Fenelon, to Merle Campbell in 1959. Fidelle was used in breeding Mastiffs, not Dogue de Bordeaux. Recently, the son of Merle Cambell wrote to the DDBS with some interesting history to add on Fidelle: "Franklin "Merle" Campbell Sr. was my father. Dad was probably the longest living breeder of Old English Mastiff's at the time of his death in 1987. My mother Henrietta B. Campbell was also very much involved in the breeding and cared of Mastiff's, both for their entire adult lives. Dad brought the female bitch dogue in 1959 from France. There is not a Old English Mastiff in the world today that is NOT a descendant from this bitch. She was rather smallish by Old English Mastiff's standards but well with in the the breed standards of size and weight. Her confirmation was near perfect and she resembled a Brindle Mastiff/BullMastiff cross to some degree. My father conferred with the Mastiff Kennel Club before introducing her to the Old English Mastiff Breed. After the fact a great degree of controversy developed. Mrs Moore, a later friend of my fathers and a DuPont, wrote a book on the Old English Breed. She later thought that the introduction of the Dogue of Bordeaux to Mastiff line actually improved the Breed. An interesting side note was that she was an adult dogue and did not understand English. It took her several months to learn English command. She was a beautiful dog. We loved her." - Merle Campbell Jr. The second dog was Rugby de la Maison des Arbres by Dr. Philip Todd. Dr. Todd moved to Holland with his Dogues, and there were no other records of any in the country until 1969 when Steve and Wendy Norris, with the help of Dr. Todd, began to import Dogue de Bordeaux into the United States. It was in the 1980's when the United States saw a small Dogue boom occur. In 1986 Touchstone released Turner and Hooch, showing a big messy slobbering Dogue, which was believed to be a Bullmastiff or mutt. In reality, it was the Dogue de Bordeaux. The Dogue was brought in to the country mainly by dog brokers, and many people received below par stock. But thorough the years, the Americans have improved this stock, with selective and careful breeding, to have some of the finest Dogues in the world. Today there are breeders of Dogue de Bordeaux that stretch form New Jersey to California, Texas to North Dakota. One must be careful when purchasing a Dogue de Bordeaux, although they are considered a rare breed in the US, they carry a hefty price tag and are a favorite breed among the puppy millers. The Dogue is not yet a recognized AKC breed, this is in the very near feature. They are recognized world wide by the FCI, and are a UKC recognized breed. There are a myriad of rare breed shows for the Dogue, that they are eligible to compete in.
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #188 

Fidelle was probably a "Dogue du midi" based on the descriptive analogy.

 

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/dogue-de-bordeaux.html


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #189 

Anyone see Capt. Ahab?


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #190 

THIS WAS THE STATE OF AFFAIRS IN THE 70's!
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Old post 8/27/06 at 12:36 PM


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #191 

From a Norman H.Carp Gordan article:

To some Mastiff authorities, on both sides of the Atlantic, the fancy had gone overboard in breeding the 1:3 muzzle. In England W. K. Taunton, a founder of the OEMC (1883), blamed the decline of the mastiff on the short muzzle. Time and again during the first decade of the 20th century he complained: (1901) ".....the rage for abnormally short muzzles which existed a few years ago...brought with it many faults: dogs deteriorating in height, length of body and in other essential mastiff qualities..." (1903) " Faults such as short bodies, short legs, straight hocks, and bad hindquarters have been far too numerous, whilst the benign expression of the mastiff has to a great extent been lost. Altogether, the mastiff of recent years has approached far too near the bulldog....That the mastiff is a short -muzzled dog everyone will admit but there is a medium in everything; breadth and depth of muzzle... is of far more consequence than extreme shortness, and far more difficult to obtain." (1910) "We do not want dogs with long, snipy muzzles, but we do want them with muzzles bearing some proportion to the size of the dog".


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #192 
Steve

Thanks for posting these articles please keep them coming. Really enjoy reading about the old kennels and lines that were produced.
 Thanks Ken


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Reply with quote  #193 

Thanks Ken, I'll do my best!

 

BTW, where's the "tuck up" in Moby Dick?

 

Seems to me that the standard wants something, that some of the better mastiffs can't deliver!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #194 

1927 calendar


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #195 

100 yr old photo


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #196 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #197 

40s-50s British photo


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #198 

1907


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #199 
"Just give him a good whack and send him here!"...1926


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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From a 30 year old Xmas card sent to me from Mike Gensberger.....

 

Note* Dame sybil was one of my dog's dame and dame to MCOA Spec. winner Resounder, Dinah-might was a half sister to two of my dogs and an aunt to a third. Littles Atlas was the sire to one of my dogs as well.

 

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!

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