SteveOifer
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| Posted 07/27/12 at 01:05 PM | Reply with quote #101 |
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Quote: I haven't been able to come up with any viable strategy for educating these entities and, ideally, broad swathes of the public
Every journey begins with the first step. Since we can see the BSL states & municipalities within each state, we can target those in power and make them aware, that we are advocates for the Mastiff and any vote against our breed can have repercussions for them politically.
If fighting fire with fire is needed so be it.
A group of volunteers from the general membership, each with an assigned BSL state, can then forward the info to the right parties.
The issue is simply whether we wish to remain passive and complain after the fact, or become active & preemptive!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 284
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| Posted 07/27/12 at 01:26 PM | Reply with quote #102 |
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Yes, I agree!
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Karen |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 07/27/12 at 05:42 PM | Reply with quote #103 |
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The recent e-mails are as follows..............
I think the Board should reveiw and take a position---maybe come up with a "position paper", dvd---something that shows the even temperment, mastiffs at work and at play. The prior Board was meeting evey quarter by phone and trying to handle all otheeer business by email. Last year I recommended we meet every other month via phone. We just had our first phone meeting Wednesday (almost 3 hours). I think this would be a good phone topic but we don't have our next phone Bd meeting until the end of September. What I would recommend is sneding an outline of what you would like the Board to consider and discuss to Jennifer Lambden, the Corresonding Secy. She can send it to the Board and we can certainly give it some real thought, "discuss" via email, throw some ideas around. By the time the phone meeting comes around we can have a relaistic discussion about what we can do. I'm cc'ing this to Jennifer so she will know we "talked" and that it is coming. t |
Toni,
I will compose a general outline of suggestions for Jennifer and CC you with same. I fully understand the downside, when e-mailing becomes the primary method of interaction. The COE revision, among committee members, has been taking forever, due to this "modern way" of communicating in the 21st century! At times, the old fashioned way is more productive. Thanks for your involvement on this BSL matter. Regards, Steve
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 284
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| Posted 07/27/12 at 05:52 PM | Reply with quote #104 |
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Thanks for the update! This sounds promising -- particularly if we can recommend some compelling content. I like a 'multiple mode' approach -- a position white paper, dvd, emailable brochure, face-book content, etc.
I we are able to form a group of volunteers to interface with BSL states, we could also attempt to set up face-to-face interactions with appropriate organisations/legislative reps/agencies with and without our Mastiffs.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/03/12 at 06:09 AM | Reply with quote #105 |
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I've sent the letter out to the MCOA regarding the topic under discussion.
In several months the board should be discussing this issue.
It might be helpful if your thoughts and ideas re DVD's etc., were forwarded to:
Corresponding Secretary:
Jennifer Lambden
sunnydalemastiffs@yahoo.com
You don't have to be a member of the MCOA in order to help preserve the breed from BSL. I would believe, that all sound suggestions would be welcomed.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/12/12 at 10:51 AM | Reply with quote #106 |
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/24436191/Dog-attack-deaths-and-maimings-U-S-Canada-September-1982-to-December-22-2009
Interesting conclusion at end.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/12/12 at 07:25 PM | Reply with quote #107 |
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Erika,
I stated in my post.... "INTERESTING CONCLUSION AT END"!
I was referring to......Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant. What is relevant isactuarial risk. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, butwill not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If apit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as theirvictims are paying the price.
I posted the site, because you always ask me to post the sites when I post!
If anyone is saying saying ug, it should be me!!!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/12/12 at 09:36 PM | Reply with quote #108 |
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I never said the very end, so I left it up to interpretation, you know, just like the standard!
BTW, I enjoyed your Freudian......Quote: How is one to devine you
Now you have me blushing!.....Ug!!!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/13/12 at 03:27 PM | Reply with quote #109 |
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Damn! I thought you meant define!
I've stopped blushing thanks to you!!!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 09:13 AM | Reply with quote #110 |
|
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/17/georgia-woman-who-rescued-animals-killed-in-dog-attack/?test=latestnews
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 08:18 PM | Reply with quote #111 |
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Canine Aggression and Genetic ControlMay 26, 2010 — The control of different behaviours is a complex process that is influenced by both genetics and environmental factors. A new study throws light on interesting connections between canine aggression and genes that are involved in neurotransmission in the brain.
For his doctoral thesis, Jørn Våge has studied genetically controlled behavioural aspects in dogs, with particular focus on aggression. Behavioural problems in dogs, particularly aggression towards people, are often the reason why otherwise healthy dogs are put down. Aggression and anxiety-related behaviour also has a negative effect on animal welfare because stress influences both the mental and physical health of dogs. Different breeds of dog with various forms of specific behaviour act as genetic isolates and are therefore suited for use in studies of complex characteristics such as behaviour. Similarities in diseases in dogs and humans also provide good opportunities for comparative studies in the field of medical genetics and dogs can therefore be valuable genetic models for various human disorders. The central nervous system and its neurotransmitters and intricate networks of receptors play a key role in this study of behavioural genetics. Serotonin and dopamine are neurotransmitters in the brain and have an important function in the control of behaviour. Many of the medicines that are used for the treatment of psychological disorders have an effect on these neurotransmitters. The neurotransmitter systems have many different receptors and enzymes that regulate the production and breakdown of psychoactive substances. All stages of these reactions are controlled by genes and can be potential sources of behavioural changes. The doctoral study has revealed a variation in genes related to serotonin and dopamine in dogs. Våge used these variations as markers in the study and discovered connections between individual variants of genes and aggressive behaviour in dogs. The thesis also covers studies of genetic activity (expression studies) in different areas of the brain in aggressive and non-aggressive dogs respectively.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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erikam
Registered: 01/21/12
Posts: 1,458
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 09:09 PM | Reply with quote #112 |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898780/
ConclusionsThis study identifies the UBE2V2 and ZNF227 expression as being associated with aggression. Since studies reporting differential gene expression in canine brain tissue are few in numbers, we have included results elucidating the expression of eight genes in canine brain, including a novel finding of gene expression of LOC488837. Of the same reason we also report findings of differential expression between male and female dogs. We are not aware of any reports based on this high number of brain samples (n = 20). The statistical power of 20 samples is, however, not optimal and call for some caution when interpreting the result. Our work contributes with preliminary data in an important area of research that can improve the understanding of functional aspects of aggression.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 09:25 PM | Reply with quote #113 |
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Fleming's early samples on penicillin were not optimal either and neither was Salk's on polio!
Quote: this study contributes to preliminary data of differential gene expression in the canine brain and provides new information to be further explored.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 09:54 PM | Reply with quote #114 |
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Of interest:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3199282/
Quote: ConclusionsUsing new sequencing technologies it is now possible to develop genomic resources for species without a sequenced genome. That dramatically facilitates the study of interesting but previously inaccessible biological phenomena and helps to establish new animal models for genetic research. Overall, transcriptome sequencing from the prefrontal cortex of two fox individuals identified over 30,000 high-confidence fox-specific SNPs, fox orthologs of over 14,000 dog genes, and yielded new insights into potentially important differences in expression of genes in the pre-frontal cortex between tame and aggressive foxes.
Of further interest:
Quote: Genes associated with neurological diseases were over represented in the tame sample. Interestingly, the second biofunction group over-represented in the aggressive sample represents genes associated with cardiovascular diseases. The links between the cardiovascular system and behavior have been increasingly recognized recently [ 55- 58].
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 10:00 PM | Reply with quote #115 |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3199282/figure/F5/
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/13/13 at 10:20 PM | Reply with quote #116 |
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Tame foxes seem to show higher homozygosity levels compared to their more aggressive counterparts. Perhaps the inbreeding that has taken place within Mastiffs have accounted for better temperaments in our breed as of late, compared to the crossed heterozygous lot that existed pre 1970's.
That's not to say that inbreeding was not prevalent in the past, but access to those dogs were not easily acquired, nor was it as broadly based as we see in lots of pedigrees today, many of which are saturated with one famous individual. Early Mastiffs were a mixed bag genetically and even when inbred, they produced diverse types. It took many years to filter out unwanted genetic types, which is still a process in work today.
Therefore in the present, unwittingly, we may have delivered the temperaments we desired by shear accident!
No doubt breeders will protest, since many declare temperament uber alles, but it may have come about anyway, despite their targeted intervention, if the homozygous genetics prove out to be causative.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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augusta
Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 882
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| Posted 01/15/13 at 01:08 PM | Reply with quote #117 |
|
hi
we already know we can breed for aggression (and tameness), the fox farm experiment proved that and also included rats and river otters (although that was stopped due to breeding problems) and the dogs we have created, look at the socially engineered differences between beagles, who need to be good in a pack, and presa canarios.
best,
v |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/15/13 at 02:04 PM | Reply with quote #118 |
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Some would believe that it's all nurture and genetics don't really matter.
If genetics do matter, then it opens up a whole list of issues, that may be direct results of genetic manipulation of behavior.
For some, this would be unthinkable, since breed specific behavior could then be validated and cases made against those breeds exhibiting unwanted temperaments in society.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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erikam
Registered: 01/21/12
Posts: 1,458
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| Posted 01/19/13 at 08:26 AM | Reply with quote #119 |
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erikam
Registered: 01/21/12
Posts: 1,458
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| Posted 01/19/13 at 09:13 AM | Reply with quote #120 |
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Some who have in the past perpetuated inane myths like "locking" jaws and "bullet proof skulls" and "red lining" now have seen that rubbish for what it is (or at least understand that continuing to repeat such idiocy reflects on those who do so..).
Some insist that demonizing one breed is required to protect another (a particularly narsty way to justify fear mongering)...
And some would rather indulge in FoxNews sensationalism than actually work with the facts...
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/breed-identification-1/
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/media-myths-politics/
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/publications/ncrc-publications/
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/19/13 at 12:15 PM | Reply with quote #121 |
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Quote: Some who have in the past perpetuated inane myths like "locking" jaws and "bullet proof skulls" and "red lining" now have seen that rubbish for what it is (or at least understand that continuing to repeat such idiocy reflects on those who do so..).
Some insist that demonizing one breed is required to protect another (a particularly narsty way to justify fear mongering)...
And some would rather indulge in FoxNews sensationalism than actually work with the facts...
So as not to distort what I've actually said in the past, I must now insert a refresher for those who might believe otherwise, based on the last few posts.
I've never stated that pit types have locking jaws, or bullet proof skulls.
I have stated, that some dogs can go into a red zone and by that I mean, a highly agitated & aggressive state.
The ability to inhibit red zone behavior, is part of a biological factor that will vary from breed to breed, based on the genetics of the dog, which attributes to the chemical makeup in the brain.
If a specific breed is bred for aggressive action, these genetic markers will be higher for that breed than another, which has not been selectively bred for heightened aggression. There have been many Michael Vicks' over the centuries!
We must not confuse this with the phenotype expressed in multiple mixed mongrelized subjects.
When discussing group attributes, there can be a baseline drawn on breeds which have not been bastardized to the point of genetic dilution.
As in the fox study, there's no reason why similar behaviors could not be bred for in other canines. In the pit bull controversy, it is the generalized group statistics, which will influence governmental laws used to protect citizens.
Defining a pit bull's purity may not be at issue. Although phenotype cannot always be totally accurate, it can define a generalized group within a certain narrow time period.
Profiling has always been controversial and will remain so, until more accurate DNA methods are discovered, which may isolate specific markers for heightened aggression, or lowered inhibitory control. Until then, this debate will continue. In the meantime, people are being mauled & killed by breeds & breed types originally designed for quick & aggressive responses and continue to be sought by people who still want these attributes in their pit types!
We still see terriers fencing with other terriers at shows and it's considered desirable!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 01/19/13 at 12:30 PM | Reply with quote #122 |
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http://retrieverman.net/2012/08/29/are-pit-bulls-being-distorted-by-a-certain-kind-of-conformation-show/
http://retrieverman.net/2012/08/28/shar-pei-are-modified-chow-chows/
From another blog.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/28/13 at 06:33 PM | Reply with quote #123 |
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Quote: He said relatives insisted the toddler would play with the dogs and even "use them as pillows while watching TV."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/toddler-dies-ga-mauled-dogs-18826973#.UVS2cleyKtQ
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For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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Janine
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/28/13 at 08:41 PM | Reply with quote #125 |
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/14/pit-bull-attack-video-dog_n_2875584.html
Some counter arguments that may not be totally correct, or totally incorrect....
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-myths.php
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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erikam
Registered: 01/21/12
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| Posted 03/28/13 at 09:32 PM | Reply with quote #126 |
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/28/us/connecticut-shooting-documents
26 people, 20 of them schoolchildren ages 6 and 7 -- he shot dead in less than five minutes, firing one bullet roughly every two seconds he was at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Police also found more than 1,600 rounds of unspent ammunition inside the home, according to the documents. Gov. Dannel Malloy pointed out Thursday the mass killer left lower-capacity magazines behind, a fact that, he said, speaks to the need to significantly restrict the number of bullets that can be in each magazine. He also said assault weapons should be banned. The Newtown house also had three Samurai swords and several books -- one titled "NRA Guide to the Basics of Pistol Shooting," another about Asperger's syndrome and a third on autism -- the newly released documents show. Connecticut's chief medical examiner has said he had been told that Lanza had Asperger's syndrome. Research has not shown a link between violence and that condition, a high-functioning form of autism marked by social awkwardness. Opinion: Did we learn nothing from Newtown? Investigators also found a 2008 New York Times article about ashooting at Northern Illinois University that left six dead, including the gunman. They also took three photographs "of what appears to be a deceased human covered with plastic and what appears to be blood," a receipt for a shooting range in Oklahoma and National Rifle Association certificates for Nancy and Adam Lanza. The NRA, a gun rights advocacy group, has issued a statement saying neither Lanza nor his mother were members.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 07:47 AM | Reply with quote #127 |
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Should I now bring up the Enola Gay?
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 284
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 12:15 PM | Reply with quote #128 |
|
og attack death may not lead to chargesBy Pat Hurst Thursday, March 28, 2013 The death of a schoolgirl apparently savaged by a pack of dogs may not lead to a criminal prosecution.
Police investigating the death of 14-year-old Jade Anderson said they were working to establish whether any criminal offences had been committed.
The teenager was discovered with wounds consistent with a dog attack at a property in Greater Manchester.
Jade was visiting the house, the home of a friend, and was alone when she was attacked by four dogs — believed to be two bull mastiffs and two Staffordshire bull terriers — which were later shot by police marksmen.
Wilmington 45° Feels Like: 43°  Interactive Radar  CHESTERFIELD, VA (WWBT) - A Chesterfield golden retriever has been put down and the owner faces charges after an attack sent a woman to the hospital. Kim DeMaree is now back home after the attack left her with severe muscle damage in her arm. "The whole time I was screaming, 'Oh my God!'" recalls Kim DeMaree. "I mean you see this stuff on television. It's just crazy." Chesterfield animal control released a statement saying they decided to put the dog down after an investigation. "We were prepared to pursue a vicious dog hearing, but the owner chose to sign the dog over to animal control," the statement read.
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kcornel4
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 12:17 PM | Reply with quote #129 |
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Oh, crikey -- sorry about the added pictures and adverts!!!! They didn't show up until after I'd pushed the submit button!
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 01:50 PM | Reply with quote #130 |
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All animals with teeth can bite.
Most bees can sting.
The issue is over predisposed genetic propensities and their relationship to specific behaviors, that trigger an aggressive outcome.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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Teresa
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 05:35 PM | Reply with quote #131 |
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Just finished trying to read through all of this thread. Personally, it seems a really easy topic to handle. It is both nature (genetic) and nurture. As V said, we've basically genetically engineered various breeds for their job. We can continue to breed those dogs that fit what our ideal is in our respective breeds and thus define a relative norm for THAT breed. Then, we raise it in keeping with that norm and we have a fairly predictable out come.
If you have a large number of bozos out there genetically selecting aggressive temperament of any breed, you are going to cause that breed (and, unfortunately, every dog that kind of looks like that breed) to get the reputation that certain breeds are aggressive even when many aren't. Throw in the morons that let their dogs run in packs loose, you get a recipe for BSL. Until it actually cost irresponsible owners money, you will continue to see a push for BSL for those "pit type" or "Mastiff-like" dogs. The first thing that needs to be done is HUGE fines for anyone letting dogs run loose, ANY dog. In the case of breeders, they need to take steps to be sure their pups don't end up running loose.
That's one reason I microchip every puppy with me as primary contact. If I ever get a call from a shelter or rescue, I have a provision that I may immediately repossess the dog. There BETTER have been a natural disaster that caused that to occur or I have no problem hopping a plane and bring the dog home. As long as there are irresponsible owners and breeders who don't give a damn, whether we like it or not, BSL will always be one dog attack away from the law books. .
I think we all want to be of the mind set of innocent until proven guilty. I just wish that was more practical with this topic, but it is not. It makes me sick those kinds of people affect the reputation of truly good dogs but it is a tragic reality whether we like it or not, because at the end of the day, human life truly does trump any dog, good or bad.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 06:13 PM | Reply with quote #132 |
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__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 284
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| Posted 03/29/13 at 11:17 PM | Reply with quote #133 |
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I don't have the time nor inclination to rehash the scientific evidence -- or lack thereof -- of a gene for aggression again. However, Steve you seem to be advocating the annihilation of an entire breed. Extrapolating from Teresa's comments, I think the point is that if we exterminate Pit Bulls -- as you seem to desire -- then the bad azz bozos are going to start breeding Corsi or Neos or Filas or mastiffs (aka in common parlance EM's) for bad temperaments.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 09:31 AM | Reply with quote #134 |
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Not looking to annihilate a breed.
Looking to prevent annihilation from government action, if children keep getting killed & mauled on a daily basis.
If we remain blindly defensive in support of growing numbers of attacks, we then create the very conditions that will bring about that which you fear.
A preemptive approach is needed to stop BYB's, puppy mills and inner city types from breeding & ownership.
Will this approach step on the toes of constitutional advocates? Perhaps, but if we can ban a large soda & cigarettes, perhaps we can adjust our thinking to fix this problem with Pit types, before the government fixes it for us!
Only authorized breeders should breed a Pit and buyers should be screened as though they were purchasing a hand gun, before enabling them to buy a potentially lethal weapon.
If such practices were enacted, we could reduce child sacrifice in the name of there are no bad dogs!
In the news............
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh-county/index.ssf/2013/03/allentown_pit_bull_owner_plead.html
http://www.abbynews.com/news/200316081.html
http://www.wtoc.com/story/21832117/autopsy-results-in-toddler-pit-bull-attack-death-expected-monday
http://www.scnow.com/news/local/article_d967de22-97c4-11e2-b30f-0019bb30f31a.html
These just a few attacks in the last few days, now multiply this & others over the course of a year!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 12:10 PM | Reply with quote #135 |
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Very impassioned!
However, you seem to have overlooked one of my (and if I interpreted her correctly, Teresa's) principle points: Unscrupulous people (e.g., gang members, teens and young adults, who want a mean/vicious 'status dog' -- as well as the 'breeders' who cater to these markets) if deprived of Pit Bulls will simply begin breeding --selecting for aggressive temperaments --and conditioning/abusing other breeds to step into the role.
Just last year I had two young blokes from our neighborhood approach me whilst I was walking our Great Dane, offering me quite a lot of money if I would sell him, as they had heard he was human aggressive.
Quote: If we remain blindly defensive in support of growing numbers of attacks, we then create the very conditions that will bring about that which you fear.
If you are referring to me as 'blindly defensive.....", I assure you I am not, and this is coming quite close to naming calling -- which surprises me! Throughout this thread I have cited scientific evidence that exists or conversely does NOT exist. I also periodically review and monitor dog bite statistics/bite related fatalities as well as the impact of BSL and bans. Both are proving to be ineffective. In my view, we need owner-directed legislation. Hefty fines, as Teresa recommended, but I think -- because human lives are involved -- stronger legislation is also needed holding owners accountable for their dogs' actions, up to and including charges of negligent homicide and manslaughter, in the cases of fatalities and severe maulings.
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 12:26 PM | Reply with quote #136 |
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I was referring to those who totally exclude & dismiss any possibility of genetic causation, as being in the realm of happenstance, regarding heightened responses that can lead to an attack. I wasn't singling you out, or name calling.
If we see this behavior in Africanized bees, why would we knee-jerk & dismiss the potential genetic factors, that can bring similar responses in other species?
Certainly greater penalties can be put in place to make owners more responsible for negligent acts of their dogs, but if there is something innate, it's hard to make the same argument. You can have a pet alligator & try to hold it's owner responsible for it's actions, but you can't legislate away behavior if it is ingrained.
Breeding towards stable dispositions, or dispositions that we humans find acceptable, takes years and intervention.
We can't get better dispositions by increasing fines & penalties, all we'll get are more inner city people in jails.
As far as other breeds being indoctrinated into play, we've seen the Rotts & Shepherds come & go, but it's the Pit types that are the primary choice for those macho mentalities. Part of it is peer pressure and the culture of macho breed ownership, but there is also the inherent nature of the breed and it's history. You don't see many films of shepherds hanging on to a rope with it's feet off the ground for many minutes at a stretch. The tenacity and threat of the Pit, is what attracts such mentalities. These types are not just looking for a big dog, they want a dog that will be feared by those about them. It's an extension of the owners inner personality, or weakness, which is why such Pit types are found to be so attractive. An aggressive Saint Bernard doesn't quite fit the stereotype. Cujo left an impact, because it was a Saint that turned bad. We wouldn't have been as shocked, if Cujo had been a Pit.
Status symbols can change, depending on a number of factors. we've seen Cadillacs & Lincolns come & go and replaced by Mercedes & BMW's. No doubt Pit types could follow that same path and be replaced by Presas, Canes, DDB's, etc.
Why has the Bulldog been the mascot & iconic symbol for so many countries & organizations? A tough looking brute will always be appealing to factions that seek attachment to the image. We can't change that aspect of human nature.
If we are fast to legislate against assault weapons, why do we hesitate to legislate against a breed that has similar capacities in harming many in a single attack?
We keep house cats, but we don't advise keeping Tigers.
At some point, we will have to reconcile the general information with the ever increasing numbers of attacks, and perhaps recognize that there is a potential clear & present danger in Pit ownership as it presently exists.
The question is whether we wait for it to be forced upon us, or take preemptive action & self regulate, in partnership with authorities.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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Teresa
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 03:49 PM | Reply with quote #137 |
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Quote: Hefty fines, as Teresa recommended, but I think -- because human lives are involved -- stronger legislation is also needed holding owners accountable for their dogs' actions, up to and including charges of negligent homicide and manslaughter, in the cases of fatalities and severe maulings.
Agreed, and it doesn't matter what breed or mixed breed is involved. Furthermore, the owner should also be responsible for all medical bills, psychological counselling and other losses suffered by the victim and their family. In addition, EVERY city, county, township etc should have VERY strict leash laws.
As for filling up prisons, if we'd let out all of the three strikes Marijuana uses, we'd probably have lots of room, but since many prisons have become private enterprises with profit motive, the prison industry certainly doesn't want that to happen. (another topic for another day!)
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 03:55 PM | Reply with quote #138 |
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For some reason I can't copy and paste again....
Re: If we see this behaviour in African bees, why would we knee jerk and dismiss the genetic factors in other species?
So far as we know now, dogs have cognitive abilities and (aside from bee dances and singing )behavioural suites that are far more complex than bees. Genetics is not destiny. There is a middle ground, supported by current scientific evidence, that genetics are part of the picture, but far from the whole story. Thus far, as I have said before, a single gene for 'aggression' in canines has not been identified. There have been some candidates, but at this point it is generally believed -- in terms of published papers, at least --that aggression is under polygenic control. Dogs also have a far more complex genetic heritages, and have the most plasticity in DNA of virtually any species that thus far has had its genome mapped. Just as I agree it is a fallacy to 'dismiss' genetic factors, in my mind it is equally misguided to assume that there is a single 'killer gene' that will transcend all other factors.
I don't think your African Bee analogy is an apt one, either. My sister is a bee keeper -- a hobbyist, but very experienced and well informed. She tells me that African bees are not unpredictably 'vicious' -- going around in swarms randomly stinging to death everything they encounter, as the media would have one believe. They are hyper- vigilant and hyper-protective of their hives,maintaining a far more extensive protection 'zone' around them. They also have more guard bees than other species, and attack a threat in greater numbers. From what she tells me and quickly reviewing published papers, they ALL behave this way, not simply some individuals or some colonies.
Finally, if they are hybridised with European species (which is where the majority of genetic bee heritage in the US comes from), the resultant bees are far gentler and more manageable than their full African counterparts. My sister has one hybid colony, although she lives in southern Ohio, which is a bit north for them. She has observed no aggressive behaviour after one generation. Her biggest problem is that they swarm much further away, often abandoning the hive for 'greener pastures',and she keeps having to replace queens. So evidently the 'killer gene' in bees isn't that transcendent.
Quote: Breeding towards stable dispositions, or dispositions that we humans find acceptable, takes years and intervention.
I don't agree with this, as I would contend that (unlike killer bees) the majority of Pit Bulls have fundamentally 'acceptable' dispositions. We are not talking about wild/undomesticated animals such as the original silver foxes (or alligators or tigers) in which case I would agree. I think the aggression we see in some Pit Bulls and other breeds is due to a number of causes:
1. Breeding dogs with aggressive tendencies to others with aggressive tendencies -- which in my experience can result in puppies with aggressive tendencies in the first litter.
2. Abuse and conditioning to be aggressive towards people -- much like the treatment given -- prior to being loosed on the enemy -- 'the dogs of war'.
3. Having too many dogs on a property forming a pack, or running loose and forming packs. Pack mentality is very similar to mob mentality. Many of the incidences of dogs mauling or killing people have involved packs -- and often involving breeds other than Pit Bulls.
In my view, a big part of the problem is lax enforcement of local city/township dog laws and ordinances, as well as animal welfare statutes. WHY, if people are not living in a rural area, or are not licensed rescues are people allowed to have nine grown dogs (if I remember the exact number correctly) as in the case of the toddler who crawled out the dog door. In our township the maximum is four -- which is enforced. We also have a leash law -- which is strictly enforced. We have lived in our neighborhood for almost eight years. We have numerous Pit Bulls, a Bulldog, Rottweilers, Ovcharkas, GSDs, Domermans, as well as our own IWH and mastiff. There has been one instance of a dog running around loose, with its owner in hot pursuit. Never has there been a pack roaming around, or any dog bite incidents at all.
Quote:
We can't get better dispositions by increasing fines & penalties, all we'll get are more inner city people in jails.
First of all, I don't think 'the problem' lies entirely, or even primarily with inner city dwellers. Also, I believe that if the possible consequences of getting an aggressive dog, and making it human aggressive and uncontrollable, are severe, people may think twice about taking such a risk.
Quote: Status symbols can change, depending on a number of factors. we've seen Cadillacs & Lincolns come & go and replaced by Mercedes & BMW's. No doubt Pit types could follow that same path and be replaced by Presas, Canes, DDB's, etc.
Why has the Bulldog been the mascot & iconic symbol for so many countries & organizations? A tough looking brute will always be appealing to factions that seek attachment to the image. We can't change that aspect of human nature.
Precisely! Thus using your strategy, we gradually won't have any 'tough looking brutes' left.
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kcornel4
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 03:58 PM | Reply with quote #139 |
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Totally agree, Teresa!
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 06:29 PM | Reply with quote #140 |
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Teresa, please show where I have stated that there are killer genes at work?
Better to respond to what I actually do say.
In the past, our confrontations were always triggered by your distortions and I'm trying to nip it in the bud this time, before you take it well beyond anything I've said.
I used the African bees to illustrate a genetic behavior that is not seen in all bee types.
A red zoned Pit is not using cognitive reasoning. It's using a part of the brain that is more primitive.
The issue is simple, are there genetic factors at work that can trigger an aggressive reaction in a particular breed, bred specifically for aggression?
If you believe that selective breeding has no impact on genetic outcome, then you will believe that nurture overrules nature. But if you believe that genetics is not destiny, then every epileptic episode can be contained through good nurturing!
In humans, some genetic behavioral inclinations can be controlled through training. In dogs, this is less effective, especially where the drive is strong. It's why prey drive is stronger in some dogs than others. I'm out of town, so truncating most responses....to be continued.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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Teresa
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 07:17 PM | Reply with quote #141 |
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WHOA NELLY!!! I never said one word about a killer gene!!!! So, to quote you, "Better to respond to what I do say"!
I personally think behavior is polygenic but can be selectively chosen from phenotype (but remember, if it's polygenic some components may still be lurking in hidden genes). I do not believe in one single gene that determines relative outcome. I believe nuture can alter behavior somewhat, but once they hit red-line status, all bets are off with the nuture business. And, in using your epilepsy example (which actually is an EXCELLENT comparison), those individuals with epilepsy have a lower "seizure threshold" than an normal individual (and yes, if it's not injury/illness related, it is genetic) then they have seizures more readily than a normal individual. Using that same idea, a dog with a low "red line" thresh-hold will exhibit redline behavior at a lower level than a "normal" dog. So, if we selectively breed for low threshhold, we do get a more dangerous dog. And, so if we breed dogs proven to produce lower seizure thresh-hold dogs, we are selectively breeding for seizures...
Secondly, I DO believe that nature and nurture work hand in hand MOST of the time, but they can revert to raw instinct. That's one reason I believe so strongly in the idea that we MUST ALWAYS remember that these are animals and sometimes their genetics over-rule their nurture. I've had it happen in my own pack and it reminded me in the MOST unpleasant way that we MUST always be cognizant of that at ALL times even in the most wonderful of dogs. When we start forgetting that our dogs are animals and we just assume they never revert to pack behavior we set ourselves up for heartache.
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kcornel4
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 07:44 PM | Reply with quote #142 |
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Steve, you might take note of the author before offering a response. It was I, not Teresa who mentioned killer bees.
As you and I have been in strong agreement on most topics -- I believe this is the only one over which we have had discord -- I hardly think the statement " In the past, our confrontations were always triggered by your distortions and I'm trying to nip it in the bud this time, before you take it well beyond anything I've said" is valid.
YOU did not use the term 'killer bee' or 'killer bee gene' -- but that is the sobriquet given African bees in the media, as you must surely be aware. They developed their hyper-vigilance and hyper-protectiveness through genetic evolution in an arid and demanding environment which gave them competitive advantage. They evidently do not pass along these genetic -- or possibly learned traits -- to hybrid offspring.
The term, "Killer bee gene', in my mind is similar to 'Red Zones' -- a term largely disseminated by Caesar Milan. and picked up in common parlance, and not unique to Pit Bulls. Show me one scientific study which references a Pit Bull Red Zone.As another behaviourist/trainer commented about aggression in Pit Bulls and other breeds, ....."A proper diagnosis is necessary. “Red Zone” pretty much means: you have a serious problem on your hands, go consult with a professional. If that’s how the term is used, then fine. But, it doesn’t help with finding a solution to the problem when trying to change what is going on. It’s even worse when novices try to define behavior".
Quote: The issue is simple, are there genetic factors at work that can trigger an aggressive reaction in a particular breed, bred specifically for aggression?"
The issue is far from simple, imho. Pit Bulls were not bred to be human aggressive.
If you believe that selective breeding has no impact on genetic outcome, then you will believe that nurture overrules nature. But if you believe that genetics is not destiny, then every epileptic episode can be contained through good nurturing!
Steve, you talk about others' distorted thinking, but my observation is that you adhere tenaciously to one extreme, but when someone does not completely agree with your tenet, you cast them in the role of espousing the opposite extreme. Here is what I have said about two posts above:
Quote: Thus far, as I have said before, a single gene for 'aggression' in canines has not been identified. There have been some candidates, but at this point it is generally believed -- in terms of published papers, at least --that aggression is under polygenic control. Dogs also have a far more complex genetic heritages, and have the most plasticity in DNA of virtually any species that thus far has had its genome mapped. Just as I agree it is a fallacy to 'dismiss' genetic factors, in my mind it is equally misguided to assume that there is a single 'killer gene' that will transcend all other factors.
Help me understand how this, by any stretch of the imagination, can be construed as I believe selected breeding has no impact on genetic outcome!
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 07:47 PM | Reply with quote #143 |
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Oops, I think we were typing at the same time Teresa!
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 08:00 PM | Reply with quote #144 |
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* selective breeding
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SteveOifer
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 10:40 PM | Reply with quote #145 |
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I apologize for the transposition of authors, so please disregard the earlier attributions. As I said, I'm traveling and on an unfamiliar system in my truncated responses.
To be continued................
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For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Teresa
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| Posted 03/30/13 at 11:00 PM | Reply with quote #146 |
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LOL!! I think you were just EXPECTING it to be me!! 
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erikam
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| Posted 03/31/13 at 04:08 PM | Reply with quote #147 |
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Ah Teresa, Et tu ?
Quote: Just finished trying to read through all of this thread. Personally, it seems a really easy topic to handle. It is both nature (genetic) and nurture. As V said, we've basically genetically engineered various breeds for their job. We can continue to breed those dogs that fit what our ideal is in our respective breeds and thus define a relative norm for THAT breed. Then, we raise it in keeping with that norm and we have a fairly predictable out come.
And this line of reasoning might have some merit if "pit bulls" were actually a breed. Note that this thread started with SO talking about pit bulls, now it is "pit bull types". Surely you are aware that phenotype is not genotype. "Pit bull type", "pittie", "petit pittie", "bully type" etc etc etc etc.
One can NOT have one's cake AND eat it too.
If we are discussing a phenotype then please, let's not talk about genetics and breeding for behavior because WE KNOW (not guess, KNOW) that "pit bull types" run the gamete - ONLY thing they tend to have in common is a short sleek coat. I have seen "pits" that look like danes, and "pits" that look some daschund mix. If there are no common genetics, than the claim has to be that dogs of a CERTAIN PHENOTYPE display supra aggressive behavior. That would be despite the mix of breeds that compose them.
So if a Sharpe / lab / fox terrier mix and a shepard/ bull mastiff/basset hound BOTH are labeled "pit bull types" and they get out of the yard where they have been chained up for the last 4 years and run across an innocent neighbor who yells and them (like the kids do when they throw rocks) and they attack....Well, we have just PROVEN...what ?
Dogs that LOOK like the "pit bull" are in high demand because of crazy myths like "red lining" and bullet proof skulls and "hair trigger" and "locking jaws". Morons get dogs that look like them because they are supposed to be tough. They treat them like shit. They are a major problem when they are pushed.
Quote: If you have a large number of bozos out there genetically selecting aggressive temperament of any breed, you are going to cause that breed (and, unfortunately, every dog that kind of looks like that breed) to get the reputation that certain breeds are aggressive even when many aren't.
What breed ? Go look at the web sites that actually brag about their dogs ...none of these are a "breed". They are "thompsons olde bully" or DDD badass mofo bulls" they are no more a "breed" than any mutt you see. Vic electrocuted his "fighting bred" dogs because they were LOOSERS. Most of these guys (a couple of very sharp operators aside, fortunately not many of them and they hold their dogs close) are not "breeding" they are sticking 2 dogs together, throwing chains around the pups neck, sticking him on a tred mill, hanging tires above his head and then encouraging him only when he fights another dog !! I hate to quote HSUS, but here i go:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-08-21/news/bs-md-pit-bull-decision-20120821_1_pit-bull-tami-santelli-bull-terrier
Quote: "There actually is no such thing as a pure-breed pit bull," said Cory Smith, a senior director with the Humane Society of the United States. "It's not a breed of dog." There are three types of purebred dogs that are of the pit-bull variety: the American pit bull terrier, the American Staffordshire terrier and the Staffordshire bull terrier, she said. But the vast majority of dogs most people consider pit bulls — with big heads, strong jaws and muscular bodies — are of mixed lineage. "There is no way to visually identify a dog as a pit bull and there's no way to even prove it using DNA," Smith said. "Even veterinarians ... have a hard time identifying a dog as a pit bull." The Humane Society said the original ruling would have applied to about 70,000 pit bull-type dogs in Maryland. Smith guessed only a fraction of those are purebred pit varieties. David Favre, the Nancy Heathcote professor of property and animal law at the Michigan State University College of Law, said that because "pit bull" is not a registered breed, it's hardly definable by law. "I have no idea what constitutes a 'pure breed' pit bull," he wrote The Baltimore Sun in an email. "As nothing is registered, it would be impossible to make a factual finding that a particular dog is a pure breed."
Quote: Throw in the morons that let their dogs run in packs loose, you get a recipe for BSL. Until it actually cost irresponsible owners money, you will continue to see a push for BSL for those "pit type" or "Mastiff-like" dogs. The first thing that needs to be done is HUGE fines for anyone letting dogs run loose, ANY dog. In the case of breeders, they need to take steps to be sure their pups don't end up running loose.
Sorry no. The conditions that will cause a dog (ANY BREED OR MIX) to be a potential problem are well known, and it comes BEFORE the dog is running loose - alone or in a pack. Dogs isolated from poeple - mostly tied up out side. SIMPLE. We in MA have a no-tether rule. It ain't that hard.
Quote: That's one reason I microchip every puppy with me as primary contact. If I ever get a call from a shelter or rescue, I have a provision that I may immediately repossess the dog. There BETTER have been a natural disaster that caused that to occur or I have no problem hopping a plane and bring the dog home. As long as there are irresponsible owners and breeders who don't give a damn, whether we like it or not, BSL will always be one dog attack away from the law books. .
only so long as we perpetuate the myth of a "breed" of dog that is super dangerous.
Quote: I think we all want to be of the mind set of innocent until proven guilty. I just wish that was more practical with this topic, but it is not. It makes me sick those kinds of people affect the reputation of truly good dogs but it is a tragic reality whether we like it or not, because at the end of the day, human life truly does trump any dog, good or bad.
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I dont know what this means. Yes, people should not be bitten and people should not be killed by dogs. The issue is not "innocence" or "guilt" is how dogs are allowed to be kept in this country. We treat smart, driven, sensitive animals like shit and then gooooooolllllllyyyy, we are surprised when they act like maniacs. There is only one guilty party - owner.
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kcornel4
Registered: 07/07/10
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| Posted 03/31/13 at 04:09 PM | Reply with quote #148 |
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Well, HAPPY EASTER to you and your families!
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erikam
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