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SteveOifer

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Seems like the servers are once again full of problems, so I'm tranfering this topic from the Lennox thread, since it will better serve to illustrate the issue.
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Semyonova, A, Aggressive dog breeds: Document nr. 1; Heritability of behavior in theabnormally aggressive dog, The Carriage House Foundation, November 2006.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14810086/Heritability-of-Behavior-in-the-Abnormally-Aggressive-Dog-by-A-Semyonova


Conclusion: heritability of abnormal aggressive behavior in the certain breeds of dogThe heritability of abnormal aggression in certain breeds of dogs can no longer be denied.We have, first of all, to do with physical conformation. The bodies of these dogs have beenselected to be able to execute the killing bite better and more efficiently than other breeds of dogs. These dogs all share a certain physical conformation to the task of killing: theexaggerated jaw muscles, heavy necks and shoulder areas, and body mass that makes defenceagainst an attack much more difficult, often impossible. It remains a fact that if you want adog who can kill, these are the breeds of choice because they are physically better fit for itthan other breeds – no less than the border collie is best fit for herding sheep because of the particular way his body has been shaped by hundreds of years of selective breeding.But breeders also selected for behavioral conformation. For hundreds of years, they haveselected these dogs on the basis of performance for their specific task. To perform well, the pit-fighters had to attack without provocation or warning in a sudden outburst of unbridledaggression and to continue attacking regardless of the responses of the other. The bull- and bear-baiters had to be willing to attack in the absence of species-specific signs that normally provoke aggression, responding to the mere presence of another species, again not stopping in
the response to any external stimuli. The dogs used to guard extended farmlands in suchcountries as France (the Bordeaux) or South Africa (the Boerbull), the slave-chasers (DogoArgentino, Fila Brasiliero), they were all selected for killing performance at the sight of strangers of another species – thus again a willingness to attack in the absence of the normalsignals that provoke aggression in a dog and the unwillingness to stop (sometimes even after the other is long dead).As they selected for performance, breeders could not know exactly which physical changesthey were selecting for. That has changed now. Research now shows that, through selectionfor aggressive performance, we have in fact been consistently selecting for very specificabnormalities in the brain. These abnormalities appear in many breeds of dog as an accidentor anomaly, which breeders then attempt to breed out of the dogs. In the case of theaggressive breeds, the opposite was true. Rather than excluding abnormally aggressive dogsfrom their breeding stock, breeders focused on creating lineages in which all the dogs wouldcarry these genes (i.e., dogs which would reliably exhibit the desired impulsive aggressive behavior). They succeeded. Now that we know exactly which brain abnormalities breedershave been selecting, the assertion that this aggression is not heritable is no longer tenable. Itis also not tenable to assert that not all the dogs of these breeds will carry these genes. Thelack may occur as an accident where selection has failed, just as the golden retriever may .................pt 2 to follow

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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have
the genes due to failing selection against the genes. But the failure to have the gene is, in theaggressive breeds, just that – a failure. It is therefore misleading to assert that the aggressive breeds will only have the selected genes as a matter of accident, or that most of them will befit to interact safely with other animals and humans. We have selected intensively for thesegenes in these breeds, for hundreds of years, and the accident that may incidentally occur is
lack
of the selected genes.The bodies and brains of all these breeds have, just like the pointer, the husky, the greyhoundand the border collie, been selected so that certain postures and behaviors just simply feelgood. These dogs will seek opportunities to execute the behaviors they’ve been bred for, justsimply because the behavior feels good. The behaviors are internally motivated andrewarded, thus the behaviors are not subject to extinction. Learning and socialization do not play a role and will not prevent the behaviors from appearing. The owner of such a dog mighthope that learning and socialization could help the behavior to appear only at appropriatemoments, however this is unrealistic. It’s also not realistic to pretend that implusiveaggression is not pathological. The environments (the fighting pit, the baited bull, theescaping slave) for which these behaviors were selected as an adaptive response are soextreme that in fact there is no appropriate context for these behaviors in normal life.Functional in the pit or facing the bear, these behaviors must, in all other contexts, be called pathological. In addition, the fact we now know that selection took place for
impulsive
aggressivity (Peremans 2002) means, by definition, that the behavior will always emergesuddenly and unpredictably, thus always escaping secure control by the owner of such a dog.Speculating in favor of the aggressive breeds, let’s suppose that human artificial selection willfail as infrequently in the aggressive breeds as it does in the golden retriever (according toVan Den Berg 2006, in approximately one out of a hundred dogs). Such a similarity isunlikely in reality, since aggression in the GR is probably due to an inadvertent founder effect, whereas the aggressive breeds have been carefully selected for these genes for hundreds of years. But all the same, let’s suppose this favorable scenario for the sake of argument, that selection will fail in one out of a hundred dogs of the aggressive breeds. Thefigures that emerge remain appalling. They translate into owner of a golden retreiver taking a

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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1% chance of endangering others by choosing this dog, while owners of the aggressive breddogs are taking (in this favorable scenario) a 1% chance of
not
endangering others in their surroundings by choosing such a dog.Given the scientific proof that is now emerging about the source of the behavior in these dogs,it is time to stop letting the owners of these dogs deny that they could have known the dogwould execute a serious to deadly attack. It is time to hold them – and the breeders of suchdogs – fully responsible and liable for the risk they choose to take with others’ lives.Can you breed it out of them?The fiction that, for example, the American Staffordshire terrier is a different dog from the pitbull, just because the breeding has (also fictionally, by the way) been going on separatelyfor about 30 years is just that: a fiction. Although Beljaev succeeded in breeding fear out of foxes in only eighteen generations (Belyaev 1975, 1984/85), aggression is a more complexresponse and much more dangerous to live with while you try to breed it out. Furthermore,Belyaev’s foxes were bred under laboratory conditions, where there was absolute control over not having the wrong genes creep back in again. The same goes for the fiction that you cankeep the appearance of these breeds while making them into safe, peaceful dogs. Physicaland behavioral conformation mean that you cannot breed out behavior and keep the dog thesame shape. In fact, as Belyaev bred his foxes into the pettable creatures he wanted, they began to have an increasingly floppy-eared mutt exterior. Form follows function – you can’thave a dog whose entire body and brain are adapted to executing the killing bite withouthaving, in fact, a dog who will execute the killing bite.The appearance of this problem in other breedsAs pointed out above, this kind of aggression has appeared in some other breeds as anunexpected and undesired anomaly – the golden retriever, the Berner Senne hund, the cocker spaniel have all had this problem. The lovers of aggressive breeds try to use these breedingaccidents to prove that their aggressive breeds are just like any other dog, “see, they’re nodifferent from the cuddly breeds.” But a cuddly breed sometimes ending up stuck with agenetic disaster does not prove that the behavior is normal canine behavior. All it proves isthat the behavior is genetically determined. The occasional appearance of impulsiveaggression in cuddly breeds is most likely the result of an inadvertent founder effect, andthere has been mixed success in breeding it out of the dogs again.But what about dogs like huskies and German and Belgian shepherds, which also figuresignificantly in the statistics on impulsive-aggressive attacks as defined here? These breedsare a separate problem. The problem with the husky may well be due to myths about thehusky being a close relative of the wolf, which has resulted in some people breeding huskiesto wolves to get “better” huskies. It is possible that people buy a husky that possesses non-domestic genes from some far grandparent the present breeder doesn’t even know about, andthat this is the cause of the occasional (though still too frequent) maladaptive aggression in ahusky. Household breeds (such as the German shepherd and the Belgian shepherd) that arealso used for police work suffer a different problem. These dogs are often bred in specialguard-dog kennels, where selection unknowingly takes place for the same abnormalities in the brain as in the fighting dogs and other aggressive breeds. This is due to the mistaken idea thata good guard- or police-dog is a dog that will be anxious to bite and will do so savagely. Inany case, many of these police dog lines will be kept separate from the general police dog

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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population, but not all. When a dog fails to successfully complete the guard-dog training, heis often sold to be a household companion. His pedigree goes with him, and he ends up in thegeneral breeding population. As a result, his – apparently –recessive genes for abnormalaggression enter the general breeding population, polluting the gene pool and resulting inincreasing abnormal attacks by members of the breed in households. Again, the appearanceof this kind of aggression in these breeds is not proof that this is normal canine behavior, butacts rather as all the more proof that the behavior is genetically predetermined.Finally, a couple of quotes from Coppinger and Coppinger (2001) that illustrate the point:“If a dog is bred for exaggerated behavioral conformation and is expected to display it in aworking environment, it is hard to imagine that the household environment is going to providethe proper stimulation for such displays. … This results in dogs that have motor displays notonly inappropriate in the household environment, but that also can turn into compulsivedisorders. A highly bred working dog raised in a nonworking household environment willstill show the working behaviors it has been selected to display, but it will display themabnormally. Worse, it will display those behaviors in bizarre and obnoxious ways.” (p. 242)“Certain breeds make bad pets no matter what you do. We should recognize this and not tryto make pets out of them.” (p. 325, citing further the example of a border collie they owned)These comments by two eminent biologists were intended to show that it is a mistake to hopethat a border collie (for example) will make a great lazy living room dog. But they are all themore relevant when we speak of dogs who have been
genetically
selected not for staring andheel-nipping, but for impulsive aggressivity and sudden, all-out, non-stop, deadly attacks.Alexandra Semyonova

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

Wednesday, January 27, 2012



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Impulsive behavior without inner restraint.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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WARNING VERBALLY GRAPHIC

There are literally hundreds of videos & recorded incidents available, which clearly shows an issue of impulse aggression at work. There may be thousands of non reported attacks as well.

Some will attempt to offset these vidoes & postings with their own postings that display a calm & loving pit type with children. In the prior video, we see the pit at the shelter after the attack. He looks very calm and non aggressive, but a few hours earlier, he was tearing apart the Pom!

All animals can be aggressive under certain conditions, but the trigger, form and intensity of that aggression is what should concern us most about pit types. Not all pit types are impulsive, or unable to be called off if they attack, but governmental agencies must side on the public welfare. If the causations are not addressed, or if we deny & discount genetic culpability, which may indeed be at the root of the problem in many pit attacks, we will only see things get worse!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #9 
My god - that pit bull tearing up the man is horrible. Yes, I believe that temperament is heriditary. Even in our mastiffs I see temperament of different types in different lines. I always breed for temperament - with out it the do is usless.
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
Lynai

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Reply with quote  #10 
I have always believed (in a non-scientific manner) that aggressiveness is or can be hereditary.

Many years ago I worked at a very large Saddlebred stables. There was one line of horses that were just the meanest group of animals, I called them the Pirahna family and we would litterally have to put a cage around the mouth anytime we messed with the horses...as they would pin their ears and bite in a moment, mother and her sister were like this and each one of their foals for 10 years were just like them.

They were highly successful in the show ring and were bred yearly.  Seemingly regardless of the stud they were bred to, out came an unpredictible package of bitey-ness (is that a word??). There were probably 10 related horses in that stables decended from this one mare and her sister and all but one would bite you in a heart beat.

Because of that non-scientific experience, and others,  I have always thought much aggressive behavior was passed down thru genetics, never thought about the controversy, just what I have witnessed in life over the decades and decades and...oh wait..d'oh! 

Honestly if I had an aggressive dog, that dog would be a dead dog. Sorry, but it is true and it may not be politically correct, but I refuse to have an unpredictable animal on my property. I am not talking about a dog that gives a warnng growl or a dog that barks at a stranger here, I am talking about one that is aggressive. I returned an 16mos old dog to a breeder (Amstaff) within 48 hours of it arriving home as it displayed aggressive behavior. That lesson cost me 1700 dollars as this reputable breeder refused to refund the money (after my child was bit on day one). Breeder accused me of lying and refused to send my money back, since he lived in FORT MEYERS FLORIDA it was hard to recoup my money from such a distance. Lessoned learned and I have never strayed from my Mastiffs again.



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Grant

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynai


Honestly if I had an aggressive dog, that dog would be a dead dog. Sorry, but it is true and it may not be politically correct, but I refuse to have an unpredictable animal on my property. I am not talking about a dog that gives a warnng growl or a dog that barks at a stranger here, I am talking about one that is aggressive. 

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I found and was tempted to post horrifying videos of vicious attacks by non-pit bull type dogs, but I didn’t think that would encourage  further intelligent discourse. .It appears to me that the core questions  are  a). Is canine impulsive aggression a heritable factor?  b.) Is it caused by, (or does it perhaps result in) unique structural changes within the brains of particular breeds such as pit bulls, which are in turn sequelae of genetic manipulation to achieve a consistent suite of behaviours and physical conformation? Are there other factors implicated? Is this unique alteration of structure present in all members of the breed (which would strongly support BSL legislation? Are there (biochemical) facilitators,moderators or mitigators of this behavior.

 

In reading Ms. Semyonova’s article (which  is footnoted, but I can find no evidence of its having been peer reviewed and published in a scientific or veterinary medical journal), I found a number of flaws and failure to take into account the more recently recognized complexity of canine cognition, as well as research findings on canine brain plasticity and biochemical influences. I won’t detail them all here as it would take several very boring pages, but things that particularly stood out for me include: 

 

No one would dispute that we have bred dogs over hundreds of years to have conformation, physical abilities and behaviour suites suited to do various specialised jobs – she referenced Border collies, hunting dogs and so on. However, I disagree with her contention that dogs ‘feel good’ – thus self-reward – when they assume ‘natural’ postures and movement that are actually demanded (in terms of it’s the easiest way for them to stand and move) by their conformation and musculature.  There is no scientific evidence that they ‘feel good’ doing so and are thus reinforced to continue the behaviour. Hence, I think the implication that pit bull types ‘feel good’ when they are attacking and killing because they were bred for bear baiting is unfounded conjecture. (And, PS, I believe Mastiffs were used for this purpose at times as well – shall we ban them?). Interestingly, the breeds most frequently implicated in impulsive aggression are English Cocker Spaniels and English Setters ( ahem…bred as HUNTING dogs).

 

Many breeds are no longer bred to perform their original jobs, so there is a great deal of genetic diversity within breeds. In her study:  That Dog Is Smarter Than You Know: Advances in Understanding Canine Learning, Memory, and Cognition, Karen L. Overall, MA, VMD, PhD, Dipl. ACVB, ABS Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist

Volume 26, Number 1, February 2011

Dr. Overall said:

 

“A number of studies have begun to focus on differences in

performance, problem solving, and cognitive capabilities

across canid species.34-37 It is important that we interpret the

studies to date with the limitations of the studies and their

foci in mind. Although dogs were originally selected on the

basis of their behaviors—and specific tasks gave rise to

breeds—most dogs are no longer “worked.” This means that

there is a large amount of divergence in populations of any

breed that can be reflected in both their behavior and genetics.

38 We should not expect dogs, even within a self-labeled

“breed,” to be homogeneous with respect to behavioral capabilities,

even if those results are not dependent on the rearing

and learning environments, simply because dogs selected

for work and those selected to not work may look the same

but may not be the same. Studies within one culture have

shown that at some level dogs’ responses to basic cognitive

tests do not vary by breed or age39; however, they may vary

by culture. Pet dogs in one culture may have been developed

under a different set of expectations than those in another

culture. Specific expectations about performance (e.g.,

whether the dog is capable of being a trained detection dog or

a service dog) are, themselves, also affected by culture. This

means that source, culture, trainability/capability of the parents

(for dogs bred to be working dogs), early experience, and

in utero and early brain development may all be sources of

variation that may need to be considered.

cognition in domestic dogs is finally written”.

 

 

Next, let’s look at causes of changes in structure/size of areas within the canine brain. MsSemyonova references research done in the a930’s through ‘60’s, when it was believed that brains of humans (and the more ‘primitive’ brains of dogs) lost plasticity (the ability to change and develop) in adults. Research now shows that experience and learning can alter brain structure  and size of various areas as well as growing new synapses (in dogs and humans).

 

Current research shows that both experiences and learning can cause physical and biochemical changes to the brain.  As Dr. Overall’s research shows: “Learning is generally defined as the acquisition of information

or behavior through exposure and repetition. At the

cellular and molecular level, learning is defined as cellular

and receptor changes that are the result of stimulation of

neurons and the manufacture of new proteins. It is these new

proteins/receptors that then change the way the cell responds

when next stimulated. It is important to remember that no

cell/neuron acts on its own: region of the brain, neurochemical

tract, and interactions with other cells are critical for

determining response

 

3 Finally, when examining the rates of gene

expression mutations in regional brain tissue, the only species

studied to date that has comparable rates with those found for

humans is the domestic dog.14 Such data, when taken together,

strongly suggest that dogs can be excellent models for many

aspects of human social behavior, cognition, and pathological

behavioral conditions, including those involving anxiety.

 

Other research has shown that dogs suffer from psychological ailments such as depression, OCD, fear aggression, anxiety, panic, and so on that are analogous to human issues and are now used as models for these disorders.

Glutamate and inhibition of  Serotonin are also implicated in poor impulsive aggression. However, again, learning through good training (learning) and experiences seem to be able to mitigate these and change brain physiology and chemistry.

 

Hence, my conclusion is that there is a hereditary component, but it is not breed specific, and it can be mitigated through selective breeding and creating positive learning experiences.


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SteveOifer

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Quote:
Hence, my conclusion is that there is a hereditary component, but it is not breed specific, and it can be mitigated through selective breeding and creating positive learning experiences.


Dealing with the brain, has been the most difficult subject for scientific exploration.
It involves structure, chemistry, neuronal synapses, cognition, psychology, genetics and external factors in the milieu.
Dealing with the various forms of aggression, or more specifically, impulsive behavior, without a monitoring, or cut off switch , in intra specific breed related events, is very difficult to prove without any element of doubt!
Not only do we face the nurture vs nature groups, but the groups that demand positive proof of the genetic causation within a given breed. To date, we can only site various studies and the opinions of those in animal behavior, regarding a genetic causation, and just like Freud & Einstein, unpopular theories, albeit well founded, will still have detractors until a method is devised to give 100% proof to those who won't admit to the mounting evidence of genetic forces at work.
To not see, that breed specific behaviors exist in different breeds, to me, is just wearing blinders. If a breed was bred to do a specific task and breeders used dogs that fulfilled that task best in their breeding regimen, in order to pass down that behavior, how can we ignore the genetic component in such breeds? We don't! Until it involves aggression! Then we deny all genetic causation, just because of the political ramifications!
We can certainly show other breeds doing harm to other pets & humans. If we read the articles, we can see how that sort of aggression can be seen in other breeds as well. It's not just confined to one breed! The issue is the frequency of such impulsive acts of aggression in one particular breed over another, not the absence of that type of aggression.
The study on foxes clearly shows how certain behaviors are transmitted. The mode of transmission may be neuro-chemical, or structural, but both derived from genetic influences due to selective breedings. Plasticity of the brain vs hard wired elements are just modifying influences, as the hard wired brain will trump cognitive countermeasures and still pass on the genetic material that is primary in causation.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #14 
Oh, Steve, I am disappointed. I am busy with a client proposal but I shall quote recent studies ad nauseaum when I am finished
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Reply with quote  #15 
My personal reasons?

I have nothing against any breed, but there are 1 million pit types being euthanized EVERY year!

I guess if we could prevent that slaughter, I might have a personal interest in doing so!

Those who profess to be an advocate for pit types, seem to ignore the real facts that lead to the killings of millions of pit types!

Practical soloutions may not be popular, or may be seen as breed bashing. But it saves lives! Human & canine!!!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #16 



So here is another video to show that pit type attacks are different than most other attacks by other breeds on average. Not to inflame, but to show how pit types disregard most visual signals & cues, that most other breeds would use to break off an attack.

Pits have been known to continue an attack on an already dead animal. This is what was being described in part in the earlier articles.

Aggression per se is not the issue, it is the quality of the impulsive behavior and the oblivious nature of the pit, once the attack begins. This genetic element can also appear in other breeds, so not just confined to the pit. But it is the amount of this genetic factor that must be our concern, since it appears to be focused & concentrated in pit types. This is clearly evidenced in the countless numbers of attacks recorded on film and in police records of the quality of such attacks.

We would never deny the high agitation & energy level of many terrier breeds, yet when we cross terriers into other breeds, why would we expect a zero net effect, regarding that level of excitability in the new product from such crosses?

Yet, we deny that pit types would have any different genetic factor influencing their core temperament en masse, just because we find it politically distasteful to do so!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #17 


In this instance, we observe a pit type that is using his abilities to help save a man. But the tactics of this pit, are genetically based in his handling of the bull.

Other breeds would not have hung on as long as this dog, or ignored the trauma it endured during the encounter. This can't be taught, it is innate!

This same innate genetic ability, which helped save this man, could just as easily turn against other dogs, or people, under different conditions. The tenacity and intensity are what create the greatest damage in such encounters, coupled to a powerful dog, with latent impulse aggressive potentiality, and there's no wonder why the pit type is making headlines almost daily throughout the world!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #18 
The Bull Terrier has been refined throughout the past century, since it is not the type that modern fighting enthusiasts prefer. So although the tenacity can be there, the modern Bull Terrier does not appear to have the same level of impulse aggression we see in other more recent pit types, those specifically bred for aggressive qualities. The dog in the last video appears to be a Bull Terrier doing his job well.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
In general, unfamiliar male mice placed in the same cage begin to fight. But the fighting lasts only long enough for one of the males to establish dominance. The other mice then assume submissive roles and the fighting ends. The knockout mice, however, begin fighting almost immediately after being introduced into the same environment, and they keep fighting longer.


http://www.jhu.edu/news_info/news/home95/nov95/mice.html

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #20 
Ok, Erika,I see  your point
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Karen
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Reply with quote  #21 
I also see Erika's point!

I also wish she could see other points as well!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #22 
 
 
 

 

CINCINNATI - A man is dead after his own dog mauled him at his Avondale home early Wednesday morning.

Ronnel Brown, 40, was mauled by his male bulldog at his home located in the 3400 block of Cleveland Court around 1 a.m. Brown called officials and told them his dog, named Kilo, attacked him and he believed he was going to pass out.

When police responded to the scene, they couldn't get into Brown's apartment because of the vicious dog. When they finally got in, they had to shoot the dog to remain safe, according to authorities. Authorities found Brown dead in the apartment.

Why it all happened is a mystery to brown's family.

"(Kilo) was his pride and joy," said Brown's sister, DeLisa Brown. "He was very gentle with him. Both the dog gentle with my brother and my brother gentle with the dog. We don't have a clue what triggered this."

Officers also found two bags of marijuana and two puppies inside the apartment.

Harold Dates of the Cincinnati SPCA says the dog is a very rare breed called an Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, originating in the state of Georgia.

He says it requires strict training.

"There needs to be a pack leader," Dates said. "In a household, the humans need to show that pack leadership. If a dog becomes more dominant, then serious things can happen."

The breed is a mix of bulldog and pitbull and is sometimes used as a guard dog.

Brown had raised Kilo from a puppy. The dog was 3 years old.

The two puppies will be held at the SPCA kennels until authorities decide what to do with them.

Officials continue to investigate what led to the attack. They have not released any additional details at this time.



Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_central_cincinnati/avondale/avondale-man-dies-after-attacked-by-dog#ixzz20tG9cpq6

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #23 
Funny how Erika omits that the bite marks were very deep!

I guess easier to blame it on the IV coming out!

The reporters get their info from the official description of the breed, so if the reporters are clueless, then those in the breed are equally clueless!........

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/alapahabluebloodbulldogs.htm

From their Association......is it any wonder why there are issues???????????.................

 

Blair Stroeder dba Blue Steel Bulldogs
- Dual Registering dogs
- Purposely Breeding dogs with Genetic Faults
COE Violations:
6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

6.6 All genetic defects found in litters (i.e. crank tails, wry jaw, cripple ness, deafness, blindness, entropian, skittishness and etc.) shall be reported to the ABBA registrar with the litter registration as "Pet" quality Non-breedable (Spayed or Neutered).

Harold Phillips dba Bad Boy Kennels
- Dual Registering dogs
COE Violations:
6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

Anthony dba Power House Kennel Alapahas
- Purposely Breeding dogs with Genetic Faults
COE Violations:
6.6 All genetic defects found in litters (i.e. crank tails, wry jaw, cripple ness, deafness, blindness, entropian, skittishness and etc.) shall be reported to the ABBA registrar with the litter registration as "Pet" quality Non-breedable (Spayed or Neutered).

Linda Fadigan dba Jo-Lin Kennels

- Defamation of ABBA
- Dual Registering dogs
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

Kasey Cloward dba K-Bullez Alapahas
- Defamation of ABBA
- Dual Registering dogs
- Crossing breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Donald McKeever dba Bull Yard Kennels
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Crossing breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Fraud against Buyers
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

3.7. If verifiable proof is shown that a breeder is having dishonest interaction with buyers they can have disciplinary action taken against them, ranging anywhere from fines to having breeding privileges revoked.

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Kirk Beerman dba Beerman Kennels
- Defamation of ABBA
- Crossing breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Fraud against Buyers
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Frank Beckwith and Janeen Mendoza dba Beckwith Bulldog Kennels
- Fraud against buyers
- Dual registering dogs
- Fraudulent breedings
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
3.7 If verifiable proof is shown that a breeder is having dishonest interaction with buyers they can have disciplinary action taken against them, ranging anywhere from fines to having breeding privileges revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Gary and Carolyn Scharfe dba Marvel Alapahas
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Dual registering dogs
- Cross breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Troyrod Smith dba Alapaha Nation Kennels
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Fraud against ABBA Breeders
- Cross breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

3.7 If verifiable proof is shown that a breeder is having dishonest interaction with buyers they can have disciplinary action taken against them, ranging anywhere from fines to having breeding privileges revoked.

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

Albert and Teresa Dowe dba New Outlook Bulldogs
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Cross breeding with other breeds
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.3 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be bred to any other breed of any kind.
6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that require no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.


Ken Spitzig dba Triple X Alapahas
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Dual Registering dogs
- Crossing breeding with non ABBA dogs
COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that requires no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

The Bully Bunch Group dba Bully House Magazine
- Fraud Against buyers
- Cross breeding with non ABBA dogs
- Promoting Fraudulent Pedigrees
COE Violations:
3.7 If verifiable proof is shown that a breeder is having dishonest interaction with buyers they can have disciplinary action taken against them, ranging anywhere from fines to having breeding privileges revoked.

6.5 Breeding ABBA Alapahas to dogs of any other kind of breed or to Alapaha's that are not ABBA registered are grounds to have breeding privileges suspended or revoked.

6.8 If a breeder if found to have falsified a breeding ( IE: mixing with other breeds and registering pups as Alapahas , registering pups from different litters in another litter, lying about parentage) The breeder will have disciplinary action taken against them ranging anywhere from fines to having privileges revoked.

Lance Gentry dba Spartan Kennels
- Defamation of the ABBA
- Dual Registering dogs

COE Violations:
1.2 Members will at all times display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect positive credit upon the ABBA and the breed.

6.4 No ABBA registered Alapaha should be dual registered with any other 3rd Party organization (Registries that requires no proven Alapaha heritage like the ARF, ACA, UCA, URBA, IOEBA, OREBA, NKC, CKC, DRA and WWKC).




__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #24 
The above is just the tip of the iceberg in such issues related to pit types and municipalities will not police the various people engaged in such practices.

This breed falls under the label of Mastiff (see the descriptive info provided above) and it's the main reason why we should not be advocates of such crosses & pit types!

Some who are supportive may mean well, but there will be great harm to the Mastiff proper if left unchecked!

These are unstable crosses, and if we raised the issue with the Anatolian cross, how can we be so hypocritical in ignoring the effect of pit type crosses, coupled to the Mastiff name?

The phenotype will what is judged and the average judge will not see the difference in these large powerful Mastiff/pit types!

It's why a controlled ban is necessary for these pit type crosses, as it will ultimately bring our breed into question, or worse!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #25 
The phenotype will be what is judged.....corrected from above
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Posts: 332
Reply with quote  #26 
Boy mauled to death at family kennel
June 04, 2002, 12:00 AM
MARTELL, Neb. � The 4-year-old son of a veterinarian and a dog trainer was fatally mauled by a dog on the family�s property, where the couple own a commercial kennel.

It appears that one of the gates at Crown Kennel, which held 12 dogs including German shepherds, Labrador retrievers and Rottweilers, may not have been fully latched, the sheriff�s office said.

After family members noticed Colter Kumpost missing Sunday, they began looking for him and found him with a German shepherd standing over his body, the sheriff�s office said.

Crown Kennel, which has been operating since 1985, has �a strong interest in breeding German shepherds for what they were originally intended,� the kennel�s Web site.

ST. LOUIS — Ten-year-old Rodney McAllister was no match for the stray dogs that neighbors had complained about for days.

The fourth-grader was found mauled to death by a pack of dogs Tuesday, bite wounds on most of his body, pieces of his clothing scattered around the park across the street from his home. The attack has horrified many in St. Louis and led to the jailing of the boy's own mother for not keeping closer watch over him.

"He was literally eaten by the dogs," Police Chief Ron Henderson said. "They fed off of him."

Neighbors told police they heard the sounds of "suffering" Monday, two hours after Rodney told his mother he was going to play basketball in the park.

Before Rodney's death, neighbors had complained about stray dogs in the area around Ivory Perry Park. Just a few days earlier, two officers from the city's Animal Control division had responded to the complaints.

"We did not see anything," said Richard Stevson, Animal Control program manager.

Two-person crews are usually sent to investigate complaints, but Stevson said Rodney's death prompted the agency to evaluate its procedures to see if larger crews should be used.

On Tuesday and Wednesday, animal control officers rounded up 10 dogs in and around the park — two chows, a German shepherd, a Rottweiler and several mixed breeds. It was unclear how many of the dogs were involved in the attack.


Lorain County Coroner Paul Matus said Michael Winters, 30, was bitten “hundreds” of times during the attack by as many as nine of the family’s dogs. Winters’ clothing was torn off during the attack, which caused extensive bleeding, Matus said.

Seven other dogs were euthanised at the scene, Chief Deputy Dennis Cavanaugh said. A 10th dog that was inside the house at the time of the attack was spared, he said. Barker said authorities had no choice but to put down all of the dogs, which varied in size and breed, but included a mastiff and a Rottweiler.“All the dogs are going to be euthanised,” he said. “There’s no way to tell which ones were involved.”

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LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Massive dogs belonging to "Mission: Impossible" star Ving Rhames attacked and killed a live-in caretaker at the actor's Los Angeles home Friday, police said.

The caretaker, whose name was not released by authorities, was found dead on the front lawn of Rhames' gated home in an expensive Brentwood neighborhood, covered in dog bites, a Los Angeles police spokesman said.

Several large dogs were running loose on the property when police responded to the scene shortly after 7:15 a.m. (10:15 a.m. ET) and animal control officers took three huge bull mastiffs and an English bulldog into custody.

"It appeared that the person suffered a number of injuries as a result of the dog mauling," Sgt. Lee Sands said. "There were numerous dog bites all over his body, but the exact cause of death is pending the coroner's ruling."

Sands said four dogs, the largest weighing nearly 200 pounds, were being quarantined as part of an investigation into the attack.





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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #27 
See post # 2 & 3

Other breeds may possess similar genes, which countradicts the inhibitory response once impulse aggression is engaged. The issue is over which breeds appear to carry this genetic trait in greater percentages, as it appears in pit types at present, among others!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #28 
Erika,

I hear you!

In an ideal world, you can make your case.

In the real world, pit types will be combined into Mastiff types and Mastiff types will eventually include Mastiffs, and your rationale won't matter!

False data and false genetics re aggression, doesn't factor into municipal mandates!

If it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, they will call it a duck!

Children trump dogs and pit types killing children, will have no priorities!

Mastiffs will be next, because many pit crosses are linked to Mastiff types!

The stats will validate municipal decisions and breeds will be banned.

So, we either put down our angst against such pit type thinking and think of the Mastiff as breed, or we fly the banner, which states..... ALL BREEDS ARE EQUAL..... and lose the battle in the end, and with that, the breed we are supposed to embrace!

It doesn't matter if you are right and I am totally wrong!

What matters, is the net affect of Mastiff-pit linkage and the forces at play. One must be a realist, when many children are being maimed, mauled & killed by pit types, which the general public will see as Mastiff type crosses, after banned breeders use these breeds without thinking of the consequences!

Unfair, or not, I hope we think first about the Mastiff and the consequences if we don't consider our breed over another type, which may in fact harbor genes toward more aggressive negative outcomes!

All dogs are not alike!

Genetics rule in the end.

Let us protect our Mastiffs from the onslaught of crosses, which can destroy our breed, if we don't take a stand about Mastiff purity & temperament!

We can't fight for pit types being equal in all factors and then believe we can then protect our own breed!

If there is a perceived genetic problem in pit types, even though ALL pit types may not be affected, we must still distance ourselves from this issue and maintain sovereignty in Mastiff affairs!

That's the reality!

Sympathizing with pit types is understandable and I fully feel for those who own good dogs, but are being pressured to abandon their care & ownership. But we don't own pit types, we own Mastiffs!

Our concern must be for our breed, despite the forces that are objecting to pit types. We can't control all of the BYB who are crossing & raising bad Pit stock. It's unfortunate that many drug & macho types found their love in Pit Types over the years!

We are not responsible for that, nor should we become advocates for the protection of such crosses, especially if we don't know all of the genetic facts! What we do know, is that a large percentage of kids & adults are being ruined for life by Pit Type attacks! This can overlap into the realm of the Mastiff and we cannot allow THAT to happen, despite people of good intentions!

Genes rule in the end and aggression is controlled by genetic material.

If we deny this scientific fact, then we do a disservice to our breed and protect something which is a lost cause at this point in time. We are not responsible for the perception, right or wrong, of the public's view regarding Pit Types!

Realistic evaluations must be made to protect and insure that no harm will come to the Mastiff, because of extraneous forces at work. We can only accomplish that by being objective and not fighting the facts & percentages that are breing made public daily.

When we hear of a Buillmastiff attack, or a Mastiff cross, we ALWAYS state the fact that it was NOT a Mastiff!

Let's understand what we are doing, instead of knee-jerking our reactions based on our sense of fair play, instead of what the BYB are producing in Pit types!

Aggressive reactions are bred for and they are genetic in causation.

Once we can accept that tenet, we can view this topic with clear understanding as to the ramifications to our breed, if left unchecked!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #29 
Or, as Dr.Phil might say..........Do you want to be right, or do you want to be smart!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #30 
Is it morally wrong to reduce the maulings of children by Pit types through municipal legislation?

Is it morally wrong to fight against the AMMA, because they can affect the Mastiff proper due to the name similarity?

Banning Mastiff crosses, especially with Pit influences, should be every Mastiff fanciers priority. The public & government won't see it your moral way Erika, they will see it their moral way!

If kids are being killed & mauled, rest assured, they will vote for the banning of such Mastiff types!

One could argue, that it is a higher morality that they enforce by doing so!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #31 

Steve,

I think this is a trick question. I don’t think anyone would be likely to respond, “ Why YES, I do think it is morally wrong, and I think it is perfectly ok for pit types (and any other types) to maul children”. However, I also don't think your statement advocates the right municipal legislation (dangerous dog legislation instead of banning or eradicating entire breeds and mixes).

Quote:

If kids are being killed & mauled...


Let’s look at the larger picture:

In researching dog bite related fatalities, (DBRFs) I discovered that the statistics were variable – although less so for children than adults. There is no central agency or repository to which fatal dog bites are reported, hence different organisations employ varying methodologies for collecting data and/or making extrapolations. Reported DBRFs for adults in 2011 ranged from 15 to 34; for children 6 to 7.  I failed to  locate parallel information about deaths of children related to abuse and neglect for 2011, However:

Five children died from abuse or neglect every day on average in the United States between 2001 and 2007, according to a new report. Over the period, 10,440 child deaths due to maltreatment were registered by state child service agencies.

The report, issued by the advocacy group Every Child Matters (ECM), found that 1,760 children died of maltreatment in 2007, a 35 percent increase over 2001. It cautioned that the actual number of abuse and neglect-related deaths is estimated to be as much as 50 percent higher because of inconsistent recordkeeping across states and widely varying definitions of what constitutes a child abuse and neglect death. Additionally:

10 Incredibly Bizarre Death Statistics

Published on 12/12/2011 under Strange Stories - by Beverly Jenkins - 193,778 views

·         Texting while driving kills 6,000 annually in the U.S. alone

·         Autoerotic Asphyxiation Kills 600 people annually

·         Falling out of bed kills 450 people annually in the U.S.

·         Coconuts kill 150 people per year

·         Icicles kill 100 people per year in Russia

·         Jellyfish kill 20-40 people per year in the Philippines alone

·         Dogs kill 34 people per year in the U.S.

·         Ants kill 30 people per year

·         Vending machines kill 13 people per year

 Hence, about twice as many people were killed by vending machines than children by dogs. Shall we ban all vending machines?

 

Re: The Pit Bull ‘Breed’ As far as I can see there is one AKC recognized ‘Pit Bull  type’ dog:  The American Pit Bull Terrier.  This means there are breeders focusing on consistently  reproducing  dogs who uniformly conform to the APBT standard in terms of both conformation and temperament. I have yet to see a  report of a ‘pit bull’ mauling that upon investigation  turned out to have been committed by a registered APBT. Additionally, the problem  for other ‘pit bull types’ and mixes is as Erika said:  Anything that has sometimes even one  of the characteristics people associate with pit bulls is labeled as such. Following investigations  of Pit Bull attacks, such dogs have often proven to be other breeds such as various breeds of bull dogs (English and American),  Boxers, Presa Canarios,  terrier mixes, Great Danes and GD mixes, etc.  (Whilst I was walking  my Harlequin Great Dane, an astonishing number of people thought he was a ‘Giant Pit Bull&rsquo.

 

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which conducted a 20-year study that listed the breeds involved in fatal attacks, there’s currently no accurate way to identify the total number of dogs of a particular breed and, consequently, there’s no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill. In fact, the CDC says its own 20-year study is not an appropriate tool for making breed-specific policies or legislative decisions. Instead, the organization advocates “dangerous dog” laws that focus on individual dogs of any breed who show aggressive behavior.

The Humane Society of the United States, in its white paper Dangerous Dog Policies and Breed Specific Legislation

states:

It is imperative that the dog population in the community be understood. To simply pull numbers of attacks does not give an accurate representation of a breed necessarily. For example, by reviewing a study that states there have been five attacks by golden retrievers in a community and 10 attacks by pit bulls in that same community it would appear that pit bulls are more dangerous. However, if you look at the dog populations in that community and learn that there are 50 golden retrievers present and 500 pit bulls, then the pit bulls are actually the safer breed statistically.

A September 2000 study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (VetMed Today: Special Report) details dog bite related fatalities in the United States from 1979 through 1998, and reveals that over the nineteen years examined in the study at least 25 different breeds or crossbreeds of dogs were involved in fatally wounding human beings. Breeds cited range from oft-maligned pit bulls and Rottweilers to the legendary "forever loyal" breed of St. Bernards. The study was conducted by a group of veterinarians, medical doctors, and psychology and public health experts.

The main conclusion of the study was that breed-specific legislation doesn't work for several reasons: that there are inherent problems in trying to determine a dog's breed, making enforcement of breed-specific legislation difficult at best; that fatal attacks represent a very small portion of bite-related injuries and should not be the major factor driving public policy; and that existing non-breed-specific legislation already exists and offers promise for the prevention of  dog bites.

Communities that have banned specific breeds have discovered that it has not been the easy answer they thought it would be. In some areas, media hype has actually increased the demand for dogs whose breed is in danger of being banned. Animal control agencies, even those that are well funded and equipped, have found the laws to be an enforcement nightmare.

Restrictions placed on a specific breed fail to address the larger problems of abuse, aggression training, and irresponsible dog ownership. Again, breed alone is not an adequate indicator of a dog's propensity to bite. Rather, a dog's tendency to bite is a product of several factors, including but not limited to:

  • Early socialization, or lack thereof, of the dog to people.
  • Sound obedience training for recognition of where he or she "fits" with regard to dominance and people, or mistraining for fighting or increased aggression.
  • Genetic makeup, including breed and strains within a breed.
  • Quality of care and supervision by the owner (is the dog part of the family or is she kept chained outside?).
  • Current levels of socialization of the dog with his or her human family.
  • Behavior of the victim.
  • Whether the dog has been spayed or neutered.

If the goal is to offer communities better protection from dogs who are dangerous, then thoughtful legislation that addresses responsible dog keeping is in order. Legislation aimed at punishing the owner of the dog rather than punishing the dog is far more effective in reducing the number of dog bites and attacks. Well enforced, non-breed-specific laws offer an effective and fair solution to the problem of dangerous dogs in all communities. (That does not involve breed genocide).

I don't quite see how you are making the leap from


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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #32 
Ooops,

I don't quite see how you are making the leap from banning pit bull types to protecting our Mastiffs.  If anything I think supporting the precedence of breed specific legislation banning and committing genocide against pit bull types will endanger our Mastiffs far more than supporting sensible dangerous dog legislation.

In a couple of communities I've been working with as a consultant, they had banned pit bulls (which basically meant anything that even remotely resembled a pit bull). When that dismally failed to have any impact on the incidence of dog bites, their thinking was, "Hmmmm, we must not have targeted the right breeds, and began expanding the list to include, Rottweilers, huskies, chows, dobes, cane corsi, neapolitan mastiffs, dogo argentinos -- and in one community blood hounds.  Of course, that had no impact either, so they are reconsidering dangerous dog legislation.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #33 
I listed that Alapaha blue-blood bulldog and the description (which linked it to the Mastiff) and then added the post of banned breeders, in order to illustrate the reality of the problem and how it directly affects the Mastiff.

These cross breds fall under the label of pure breds and the municipalities aren't going to care one way or the other. Much like Bloomberg banning all large sized drinks, the same mentality goes into broad stroke actions to correct any municipal issue that can't be dealt with in other ways. Speed and expediency in removing the problem, is paramount in such matters of public protection. If there is an outcry to do something, then something gets done, even at the expense of innocent bystanders.

We can't control puppy mills and BYBs, so how do we stop the euthanasia of 1 MILLION Pit types every year?

You save these dogs from death, by breeding less of those types. You save the Mastiff from being linked to those breeds, by removing those types from the system. Banning, prevents death and overlap into existing pure bred breeds of long standing.

Temperament is genetic and if breeders have strayed from that control, then individual breeds will be subject to bans.

We can't overlook the genetic connection and place all this on bad owners & lousy nurturing.



__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #34 

Moving right along to aggressiveness and genetics, I don’t think I stated that aggression – particularly impulse aggression -- (or other attributes of temperament) has no genetic component.  What I said was, “ Hence, my conclusion is that there is a hereditary component, but it is not breed specific, and it can be mitigated through selective breeding and creating positive learning experiences. To that I would add: Positive learning experiences via good training, socialization, and so on do create biochemical and structural changes at the cellular level that mitigate against aggression. Further I certainly did not suggest that breed specific behaviours do not exist within breeds. I referred to these as ‘suites of behaviours’ . I simply think that breed specific aggression unique to pit bull types does not exist.

What research is showing  is that genes do not directly control aggressive behavior--they affect the behavioral regulators known as neurotransmitters, that in turn may influence the probability of certain kinds of aggressive behavior.

Association of dopamine- and serotonin-related genes with canine aggression

  1. J. Våge1,
  2. C. Wade2,3,4,
  3. T. Biagi2,
  4. J. Fatjó5,
  5. M. Amat5,
  6. K. Lindblad-Toh2,6,
  7. F. Lingaas1,*

Aggression in dogs comprises a group of complex behavioural phenotypes, often with a continuous, rather than discrete distribution. Large differences in breed-specific risks of aggressive behaviour coupled with high estimates of heritabilities (Liinamo et al. 2007; Pérez-Guisado et al. 2006) strongly indicate that canine genetic architecture significantly influences the risk of exhibiting human-directed aggression.

We observed significant allelic associations between human-directed canine aggression in ECSs (English Cocker Spaniels) and alleles at 4 of the 16 loci studied. In addition, haplotypes having both high and low OR for aggression were observed. All of the studied genes are related to neurotransmitter systems in the brain and are highly relevant to behavioural alterations both in normal and diseased states. Although the mechanisms for their actions are not fully understood, Siever (2008) describes a model in which reduced serotonin and enhanced dopamine decrease cortical suppression of aggression and reduced GABA activity in the limbic system can modulate limbic ‘drives’ for aggressive behaviour. As expected, we did not identify any single locus with specific alleles/haplotypes completely associated with the presence of the recorded phenotypes. Although the study identifies haplotypes associated with a risk of aggressive behaviour, it supports a complex nature of canine aggression, and the associated loci studied are only partly explaining the observed variation in the aggressive phenotype. This is also shown by the ‘attributable risk’ (risk if haplotype minus risk without haplotype) of aggression from risk haplotypes, varying between 0.21 and 0.36 for the four genes within the study population of cases and controls.’

 

     

One of the unique features of springer’s with this form of dominance aggression is the lack of warning before the aggression.  The “glazed look” noted by owners is actually a very intense stare and dilated pupils.  This is caused by sympathetic nervous stimulation, part of the fight or flight response.  Whereas most dominant dogs gradually escalate the level of threat in social situations, moving from a stare, to growl, to lip curl, to snap and finally to bite, springers seem to move from stare to full-blown attack, skipping the intermediate stages.  These dogs lacked impulse control and over-reacted in situations they perceived as threatening

 

 

 Genetics of Impulsive Aggression in the Dog

A New Research Project

We are genetic researchers from the University of California, San Francisco.

We are working on the Canine Behavioral Genetics Project, investigating the

genetics underlying various anxiety-related behaviors such as noise phobia,

separation anxiety, fear aggression, and impulse control problems. As members

of the Department of Psychiatry, our hope is to identify genetic markers that may

predispose dogs to certain behavioral traits, with future goals of applying this

knowledge to better treatment of affected dogs as well as learning more about

related pathways in human disorders.

 

One of our projects involves studying aggression, a complex behavior that is

probably influenced by a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

We work under the assumption that many aggressive behaviors are related to

underlying anxiety conditions. Specifically, we are interested in maladaptive,

anxiety-based fear-aggression, and impulse control aggression. Dogs with this

type of inappropriate aggression exhibit abnormal, aggressive behaviors that

are grossly out of proportion or out of context with the external environment.

We are very interested in the genetics and biology behind this trait.

 

We realize that this is a very controversial trait to research and want to assure you

that our entire group has publicly criticized breed-specific legislation. It is clear

that this type of inappropriate aggression is seen throughout all breeds of dogs.

It is our hope that by identifying genetic markers for predisposition to this type

of aggression, we might better address the need for modified training practices

at a young age and improved breeding and puppy-raising practices, which we

hope will remove the negative stigma associated with particular breeds

.

The dog provides a unique opportunity to study the genetics underlying different

behaviors. Because dogs from the same breed are more genetically similar than

dogs from different breeds, studying single-breed groups makes it easier to find

genetic markers that may predispose certain dogs to behavioral traits. Discoveries

made in one particular breed can then be extended to other, closely related

breeds for confirmation of findings (e.g., Australian Shepherds vs. Collies).

Given the strong interest in genetics within the Australian Shepherd community,

we have sought to initiate these studies with a breed where the importance of

genetics for understanding the breed is well-established.


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Grant

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Reply with quote  #35 
An example off whats happening in UK after pit ban !!!
Mastiff & Mastiff cross
     
 Price:£250
Location:Caerphilly
Number:

Dogs 4 & Bitches 4

Available:07 August 2012
Age of ad:1 Days
Mother Presa canario crossed with cane corsa mastiff dad is presa canario cross bull mastiff cross french mastiff these chunky puppies are top class ,home reared with children ,wormed and ready to go to loving homes D.O.B 12/06/12

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Grant

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Reply with quote  #36 
Mastiff & Bulldog cross
     
 Price:£650
Location:West Midlands
Number:

Dogs 5 & Bitches 7

Available:18 July 2012
Age of ad:2 Days
bullykutta x presa pups for sale, Males and females available, sire is a pakistani bullykutta bred from the finest quality dogs of ancient aseel lines. The dam is presa canario from j7 lines, she is bred from protection/ guard working dogs. Already socialised with toddlers and kids. pups will make exceptional family pets/ guard dogs. To good loving forever homes. ready to go.   More>>

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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #37 
Thank you Grant!
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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #38 
The only reference I see to mastiffs in the Alapaha blue-blood bulldog history is a weak citation of a 'Spanish type Mastiff' in the dogs' early heritage (along with all those bull dogs).How does that translate to endangering our English Mastiffs? Again, I strongly believe breed specific legislation is one of our greatest threats.

As I have brought forward points I have supported them with scientific studies and expert opinion. Simply restating your opinion/belief does not make it more valid.

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
 It is clear

that this type of inappropriate aggression is seen throughout all breeds of dogs.

It is our hope that by identifying genetic markers for predisposition to this type

of aggression, we might better address the need for modified training practices

at a young age and improved breeding and puppy-raising practices, which we

hope will remove the negative stigma associated with particular breeds

Perhaps some things get lost in translations, or maybe the quantity of information in posts don't get assimilated.
In either case, if I read the quoted info above, it basically states that inappropriate aggression (whatever that means) is universal in all breeds ( I've stated & posted articles saying, that it's not just a Pit phenomenon ). I've also stated that it's concentrated in Pit types, since genetic markers don't need to be found, in order to validate universal behavior, which must be linked to genetic factors.
If the above is valid and there is a genetic marker found for this type of aggression, it only validates the type of aggression.
Solving the issue is much more complex than improving upon puppy raising practices, which at best, might only delay the inevitable in dogs that are predisposed to this type of aggression.
I can modify the behavior of a great white shark, but it doesn't mean I've changed it's hard wired predisposition, nor can you guarantee a permanent resolve to such impulses.
If we view the fox study, it clearly shows how heredity (genes) can be isolated between groups, which control aggressive behaviors.
If Pit types carry the aggressive genes that were bred into the best fighting dogs, why would we ever believe that those genes are not expressing themselves within the general Pit type population as a group?
The fox model is obviously showing us that these genes exist!
Why wait for a marker, when we have the behavior showing us the behavior is genetically active?
If we take the unrealistic avenue of waiting years for a genetic marker to be found, it will be too late to recover what we still have at present! Sacrifices must be made. The government confined Japanese during the war. They will certainly ban dangerous breeds by phenotypes, make no mistake! They are doing it NOW!
Resistance is honorable, but also unrealistic. Not when BYBs are in full throttle and producing millions of Pit types to flood the market.
The government has limited funds and abilities to try and figure out what is a Pit and what is not a Pit.
If the maulings continue, municipality by municipality will follow the domino effect and eventually Mastiffs get brought into the equation by default.
Therefore, we should be pushing for a reduction of puppy mills & BYBs specifically producing these Pit types & crosses.
The MCOA should be pressing this issue with the government and getting ahead of the curve, in order to gain clout & recognition, to prevent the forces that are building from overlapping onto the Mastiff.
If the MCOA leadership convinces the government of our responsible, proactive position, and demonstrates that Mastiff breeders do not represent the same factions that operate in other Pit type circles, our breed may not fall prey to banning regulations looming on the horizon.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #40 
This is the REALITY!
Time to wake up...............

Friday, April 20, 2012



__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #41 

Ecuador Joins International Trend: Bans Pit Bulls and Rottweilers as Pets

 
Mixed Breeds Included
Ecuador - The country of Ecuador is set to ban rottweilers and pit bull terriers as pets, Quito-based newspaper El Comercio reported, citing the health and agriculture ministries. The new rule, which also includes dogs interbred with the two types, will go into effect in March. Care of dogs used by police and private security companies will also be regulated. The ban was announced after a child in Quito was killed by two pit bulls four months ago.
Ecuador now joins the South American countries of Guyana and Brazil that have instituted breed-specific laws, and likely others.
Many foreign countries have enacted breed-specific laws to protect citizens from dangerous dogs and to stop the importation of fighting dogs (pit bulls). Countries DogsBite.org has gathered include, but are not limited to: Argentina, Bavaria, Bermuda, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Guyana, Israel, Italy, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Lativa, Singapore, Spain, St. Kitts and Nevis, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, the UAE, United Kingdom, Venezuela and parts of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Malaysia, China and Japan.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

Pit Bull Mastiff-Mix Kills 10-Year Old Boy in Mexico

 
Family Dog Kills Child
Cuernavaca, Mexico - Police said a 10-year-old boy was killed by his family's dog. Public Safety officer Jose Antonio Lazcano said the pit bull mastiff-mix attacked Diego Arellano after the boy jumped over a wall to get into his house. The boy had apparently forgotten his keys. His mother called the police, who arrived to find the boy lying next to the dog. She gave police permission to shoot the dog before approaching Diego, but the boy was dead by the time they reached him.

Local newspaper El Diario de Morelos said the mother told police the dog had never been aggressive before Saturday's attack.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Posts: 332
Reply with quote  #43 
Ah, so now we expand the discussion to world wide versus the US.
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Karen
johnclt

Newbie to Mastiffs
Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #44 
Steve, thank you for posting all this.  It all makes sense. We as breeders (well, ethical breeders) strive to breed for good temperaments. It baffles my mind why some breed poor temperaments and breeds that have major aggressive issues. Those poor people and pets who have been mauled and/or killed. It's so senseless and should not happen.  There are already enough dangers in this world, why continue to breed these beasts?
johnclt

Newbie to Mastiffs
Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynai


Honestly if I had an aggressive dog, that dog would be a dead dog. Sorry, but it is true and it may not be politically correct, but I refuse to have an unpredictable animal on my property. I am not talking about a dog that gives a warnng growl or a dog that barks at a stranger here, I am talking about one that is aggressive. 

DITTO


Here Here!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #46 
No, not now, it is a UK issue as well and was discussed earlier.

Just attempting to show how the issue spreads and will eventually affect everyone.

It's why we need to get ahead of this, so that we can insulate the Mastiff from the same forces banning other breeds.

When we see designer Bulldogs in the news, or large Pit-Mastiff cross, it can easily overlap into the Mastiff proper. By becoming proactive FOR our breed, well in advance of the coming lay accusations, we can take a practical approach in fending off the government down the road. If we ignore what is coming, then our breed will suffer a similar fate as others have.

This is where the AKC & the MCOA can be instrumental in protecting the Mastiff. Those states that are seeking to enforce dangerous dog laws, need to be contacted by our parent club. Supportive understanding in reducing dangerous crosses, would be seen as a welcomed relief by many municipalities, who might otherwise use broad brush tactics, which may certainly include the Mastiff.

Denial won't help our situation down the road. If we confront the issue head on, in a rational mode of preparedness, we will have a game plan that we can illustrate to all, about the general good nature of our pedigreed Mastiff, bred by responsible members of a 100+ year old organization.

It's another reason to become a member of the MCOA. If we all organize an effort and present a unified front, the MCOA logo might truly protect our breed and become a meanigful sign, separating our breed from BYBs &  risky puppy mill bred stock.

If a ban does go into effect regarding Mastiffs, let it not target MCOA bred Mastiffs!

I'm trying to be realistic on this subject, even though these solutions are not my personal preferences for an ideal resolve. But if there is a coming storm, we best make sure we strengthen our house before it's too late!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MaineMastiff

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 229
Reply with quote  #47 
The most helpful thing for anyone who loves any breed to do is to help educate the public about appropriate human / canine interactions and behaviors.

Most dog bites result from confusion and poor communication between dogs and humans. REGULAR DOGS, not genetically haywire "bad" dogs from "bad" breeds.

The real problems are:

People failing to read dogs' signals correctly.
People petting dogs without asking owners and allowing their children to do so as well.
Dogs having been raised inconsistently and never trained.
Aggression being accidentally reinforced with poorly timed positive reinforcement or incorrectly timed and understood negative reinforcement.

All things that we can help stop with education.

I'm not arguing about whether there is or isn't a genetic factor in aggression. I'm only arguing that teaching proper canine / human interaction and ownership WILL reduce dog bites across all breeds.

Why don't we just agree to try to stop dog bites? All dog bites. Regardless of breed.

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Julia

UWPCH Mishka, Beast of the North CGC, OBT, WP1 December 10, 2005-November 11, 2011
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
People failing to read dogs' signals correctly.


This is one of the issues in some Pit types, as they don't convey that language before an attack.

Quote:
Why don't we just agree to try to stop dog bites? All dog bites. Regardless of breed.


Let's stop all wars while we're at it!

Look, I understand the utopian plane of reasoning, but in the real world, thinks are not so idealistic. If we wish to protect our breed, certain sacrifices and accommodations will be necessary. Stay tuned!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,528
Reply with quote  #49 
things....typo
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,528
Reply with quote  #50 

'Impulsive' Gene Identified in Finnish Men

         
Date: 22 December 2010 Time: 06:08 AM ET

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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