WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 748
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 04:11 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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I'm sure this is not an original idea, however I've not seen it commonly used...and so I thought I'd post it here.
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As is not a surprise to anyone, I'm going to breed Jade when she seasons next. This is not a thread about her litter, but it is about puppy contracts.
In getting ready to breed her, I've asked LOTS of respected breeders to give me their puppy contracts for me to review. Even before that, I'd spent (off and on) parts of the two previous years drafting an agreement for puppy buyers that reflects some of my own thinking on the matter.
So, in putting together the puppy contract I'm going to use for Jade's hoped-for litter, there will be some things that I've not seen elsewhere ... and a few things I hadn't fully thought through that, as a result of reading the agreements of those who'd sent them to me, will improve mine.
Anyhow, I'm putting this idea out there so that any other breeder who thinks this is a good idea can feel free to include it in their contracts, too.
The puppy contracts this hoped-for upcoming litter will include a section that will read as follows:
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Breeder will make a donation to Friends of Rescued Mastiffs (or similar organization dedicated to the rescue of large-breed dogs) (“FORM&rdquo in the amount of $______ within thirty (30) days after the Buyer takes possession of the Puppy. In the event that the Buyer returns the Puppy to Breeder, the portion of the Price returned to Buyer will be reduced by the amount donated to FORM.
Buyers’ Initials: _______ _______
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Now, that's not to say all the money will go to FORM, but that it will go to FORM and regional or country-specific (i.e., those outside the US) with similar objectives.
Again, if we're to be the guardian of the breed, then we need to do what we can to help those dogs who need it. And, I personally, don't have a problem increasing puppy prices a bit over the normal rates with the differences going to rescue.
So, regardless of whatever you're charging for a pup, increase it a hundred or two, and give it to your local large-breed (or Mastiff-specific) rescue group and/or no-kill shelter. They'll be giddy for the support and help.
Thoughts?
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http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Teresa
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 04:31 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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Though I think it's a nice thought, my personal feeling is that giving to rescue is a personal choice. I think puppy buyers would be offended if they felt "forced" to give to an organization they may or may not want to give to...
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Teresa
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 04:32 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Also, how would you enforce such a thing? If they didn't and were a great home, would you take the puppy back? In contracts you should always think of practicality. I always say that contracts should accomplish three things. Protect the puppy (first and foremost) and then protect both breeder and buyer equally. Anything more than that becomes excess baggage and complicates the issue.
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WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 748
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 04:45 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Is this sort of a thing any different than requiring that someone who represents themselves to be a show-home to actually show the dog?
Or, to do certain sorts of tests, or a spay/neuter at a certain age?
As breeders, we sell pups to people who want our pups. We place certain requirements on them. I'm not sure this any different.
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http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Teresa
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 04:57 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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There are so many things you can put in a contract, but in reality, you have to know what is REALLY enforceable and what is not. In my show contract (and quite honestly, I do not sell hardly ANY show puppies since I prefer pet homes) all I say is a "good faith" attempt at showing. Some people may try showing and absolutely hate it and I'd hate for a good home to lose thier beloved pet because of showing. I follow through on the spay/neuter part and have yet to have a home not spay/neuter. I think staying in close touch with puppy buyers and having a good relationship with them is key. I can honestly tell you there is only a handful of people I would truly trust with a full registration pup. The more full registration pups you have out there, the bigger the risk they'll end up in a bad situation. Yes, I'm paranoid!!!
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WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 748
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 05:09 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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The stress of deciding who is worthy of having full-registration pups is quite different than a piece of each pups price going to rescue. IMO.
And, I agree with you ... the VAST majority of pups do NOT need to be on full registration.  Rescue is busy enough as it is!
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http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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mscris
Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 352
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 06:16 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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I like that you are handeling the donation, it makes for easier tracking. As a buyer that most likely donates to other programs, they will see that you will be getting the tax deduction, not them. What if they donate to a spay/neuter program or a program that helps all sizes.
What about offering to match a donation, up to max amount of ?? Then if the puppy is returned to breeder, the total amount is deducted from price.
My question is to the breeders, how many people have actually had puppies returned? They are usually passed onto friends, then strangers and then into the rescue or shelters. |
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WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 748
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 06:31 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Good questions / points.
My primary objective in having this in the contract is to raise awareness with puppy buyers of the impact indiscriminate breeding has on our breed specifically and all breeds generally.
Again, it doesn't have to be a large amount to make for a good education lesson for everyone involved.
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http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Crossroads
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| Posted 08/17/12 at 06:32 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: My question is to the breeders, how many people have actually had puppies returned? They are usually passed onto friends, then strangers and then into the rescue or shelters
My contract stipulates that my puppies are to be returned to me at any point in their lifetime. Under no circumstance is the buyer allowed to rehome that puppy/dog without my written consent. I think most reputable breeders have a similar clause in their contracts.
I have had two puppies returned to me...out of the 27 I've produced. I was able to place both in pet homes quite easily...on a new contract...with the same stipulation, that they can't be rehomed without my written consent.
I like your idea, Darren. I think more breeders should donate to rescue. I see a lot of breeders make comments about how they donate the cost of one puppy from each litter to a rescue, etc., but SSMR doesn't receive those donations. I don't know who the lucky rescues are. lol
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 06:40 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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I see many down sides to this train of thought. As a buyer I wouldmnot want MORE money added on to the already high price I am paying for MY pup. If the breeder wants to donate a portion of their money then that is fine and dandy, but to put In contract that I have to donate to a rescue when I am in fact BUYING from a breeder when I could go out and get a rescue instead, then the breeder would be out iof the money for that pup I would,have bought from him. I hear so much about rescues or adopting, but still see so many breeders breeding and selling pups. Please just how many actually think that their dogs are thr perfect example of the breed and they just HAVE to pup more pups on the ground when they themselves are saying to many in rescue already.
Or charge Less for your pup and you put that money that you didn't ask a buyer to pay towards a rescue of your own. This is just my two cents worth and we all know that doesn't buy much
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 06:42 AM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Sorry for all the typos......only had a few hours sleep and am very groggy. Hope you all can read the muddle I just Posted
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Sue Havelka |
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WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 748
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 10:39 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Great points, Sue.
Because there are no "standard prices" for Mastiff pups, it's fairly easy for a breeder to move their prices a bit without anyone other than former puppy buyers who're coming back for another one to notice.
Similarly, because most breeders are somewhere in the range of $1500-3500 per pup, it's simply not hard to carve out $50-350 per pup to donate to rescue. The breeder wouldn't have to change their price at all to participate.
So, a breeder sells their pup for $2000 and tells the puppy buyer that they're putting (say) $100 into rescue. Does the puppy buyer feel that they were overcharged by $100 and they should have only had to pay $1900 for the pup? Maybe, but I'd doubt it.
Also, Sue, there are MANY puppy buyers out there who are not savvy about the financial needs that those intimately involved in rescue experience in order to try to move dogs out of a bad situation and get them into a good one. This item in a puppy contract is an opportunity to educate the puppy buyers and to remind them that if they ever decide they cannot take care of the dog, they should call me before doing anything else.
Thanks for the thougths.
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http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 369
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 11:01 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Morning, let's hope my post is somewhat better this morning.
Why even tell the buyer that money from the sale is going to rescue? I would have no problem with my breeder saying the cost of the pup is so ans so much and he/she will be donating so and so much of that to rescue. I would have a problem of paying so much for my pup then having to pay more to a rescue that someone is telling me I have to do.
I think your intentions are good, and you can still educate buyers about rescue without making them donate extra money.
Just my opinion, and I am sure there are many other opinions about the subject.
Have a great weekend!
The weather here in Illinois is finally beautiful!
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WalnutCrest
Registered: 07/10/09
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 12:37 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Sue -- That's how it reads -- the puppy is $X and of that $Y is going to rescue. Period.
Whether a puppy buyer believed they were being taken advantage of as a result would reflect more on their opinions of the breeder on other matters than on the breeders' desire to donate $Y to rescue. If a puppy buyer has this sort of concern about a breeder, they probably shouldn't buy from them for any reason or at any price. IMO.
__________________
http://www.WalnutCrestMastiffs.com
resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
"The most fundamental form of human stupidity is forgetting what we were trying to do in the first place." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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glaciermastiffs
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 135
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 01:13 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Not sure why you would even put it in your contract except for PR reasons. I believe most breeders donate to rescue on their own and in confidence. I do that without charging any extra to the puppy buyers. Fine if you want to raise awareness give them some information in their puppy paks but not part of a contract
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Cece Wardell
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 03:08 PM | Reply with quote #16 |
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Guess I understood it wrong, I thought you wanted the buyer to give a set amount, when really you are telling them if you donate let's say.....200.00 and then they return the pup to you, they get 200.00 less back. Keep records, cause I would want proof.
But like you said, the breeder and buyer have got to have faith in each other, else they probably wouldn't be dealing with each other. I don't think anyone gets a puppy thinking they will ever have to give it back.
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LindaGreesonRice
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 03:30 PM | Reply with quote #17 |
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Not sure why you would even put it in your contract except for PR reasons. I believe most breeders donate to rescue on their own and in confidence. I do that without charging any extra to the puppy buyers. Fine if you want to raise awareness give them some information in their puppy paks but not part of a contract
My thoughts exactly.
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the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.
We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
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Crossroads
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 04:18 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
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Quote: I believe most breeders donate to rescue on their own and in confidence
I can assure you "most" breeders don't donate to rescue, at least not to the rescue I'm involved with. It simply doesn't happen. There are a few breeders that openly donate to rescue and in the process raise awareness. I'm happy to give them tons of credit. They deserve it.
On the other side of the coin, we really don't find ourselves cleaning up breeder's messes. We deal with backyard bred dogs or puppy mill dogs. We have had two situations in NC where we have had people call and mention a breeder. In the one situation the breeder had us deal with it and I lost any little bit of respect I had for her. In the other situation, the breeder stepped up immediately and did everything that would be expected of her. That's only two situations out of a LOT. (Neither breeder was from NC, so don't start speculating).
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 06:38 PM | Reply with quote #19 |
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I think its a great idea.
For me it would make me feel better about buying a pup instead of rescuing! I also think it's a great way to raise awareness. You may loose some customers to rescue but that's really a win/win situation if you think about it.
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pambo
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 07:11 PM | Reply with quote #20 |
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Here in Florida, we deal mainly with back yard and puppy mill dogs. I have personally been involved with a couple of breeder dogs and they stepped right up and took their dogs back.
Our pet shops are loaded with cute mastiff puppies. They are the ones that are flooding the rescues now...they do not care who they sell to. Nor do they do any checks on the buyer.
There are several mills in Indiana that are shipping heavily to Florida. How do we stop them?
I am certain some breeders donate to rescues, but to be very honest most rescues along with RESCUING, Fostering, Home Visits, and all the other stuff we do.......WE MUST RAISE MONEY. It seems like when we get just a tiny cushion...all hell breaks out and the dogs come in, that need an enormous amount of medical care.
Figure out a way to stop the backyard breeders and MOSTLY the puppy mills and it will help enormously.
We have such a SMART GROUP on the Forum..lets figure this out.
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Janine
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 07:33 PM | Reply with quote #21 |
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I feel that it is public awareness that needs to be aroused, rallies held nationally and people getting out and spreading the message.
We have one here on the 16th of September, it will be held in most of the states at the same time. Steps of Parliament House and thousands are expected. The message is getting through, slowly.
The majority of people are against puppy farms, you get a big turn out and you will get publicity. You also have Oprah, she did that wonderful expose of them, if someone contacted her to speak at a rally you would probably have more listen.
Just an idea.
Janine. |
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glaciermastiffs
Registered: 03/10/07
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| Posted 08/18/12 at 09:11 PM | Reply with quote #22 |
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I totally agree in raising public awarness and I believe we should inform our puppy buyers about organizations that can be donated to, and things like the SSMR auctions etc.... But to add it to the contract, mine is already 6 pages long and It is all about the puppy, safety, feeding, shelter, care, spay neutering etc... Contracts are for the protection of the puppy, the breeder and the buyer and that is what I feel should be in a contract not to confuse them with PR.
I love giving my puppy buyers huge puppy packs filled with information, on all subjects, and where to go to learn more about mastiffs and I think Darren brought up a good message to inform them on donating so a good sheet with this infomation willnow be added to my pack.
JMO
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Cece Wardell
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