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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

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On the National Geographic bite force show, they measured a protection-trained APBT at 235 lbs., german shepherd at 238 lbs. and a rottweiller at 328 lbs. with a bite meter. I'm not sure where in the mouth they got these measurements, but it looked like the measurements were taken at the molars (usually a higher figure than at the canines) or from a full-mouth bite (i.e. they add the force exerted at the canines, pre-molars and molars).

The problem with any measurement of actual bite force (i.e. biting on a bite meter) is are the animals really biting their hardest. I think this may be less of an issue with domestic dogs, especially protection breeds, that may be able to be trained to bite. Thus, I take a lot of these tests with a grain of salt.

A member from Animal Elite posted this Swedish study below on domestic dog bite force. According to this poster, they used something similar to the tool from the National Geographic to measure the dogs bite force. Supposedly they took a very large number of readings and picked the maximum figures. This poster mentioned that the dogs used a full-mouth bite and the researchers added up the force from the canines, pre-molars and molars to arrive at the total bite force.

Figures are in KG.


[image]


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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KarenK

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Reply with quote  #2 
Interesting.  Wondering if the Mastiff would come in around the same area as the Boerboel?  Also interesting that they are showing the Bulldog to have such low bite force in light of the fact that I thought they were bred to grab and hang on.  Or am I wrong on that?
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h

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Reply with quote  #3 
On another show I saw, a Rottie did 385 while a Mastiff mustered a "mere" 685.  The Mastiff was the highest for a dog and almost twice as high as the Rottie which came in second.

I think the show was on Animal Planet.

H



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augusta

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Reply with quote  #4 
hi karen,

you are right, the bulldog was originally bred to bait bulls, to grab and hold, often biting the bull's nose.  it was bred to be agile and fast.  it also looked much more like a skinny american bulldog 150-200 years ago. 

the breed has been very (in my never humble opinion) deformed, or at least dramatically changed from the bulldogs of 1850 or earlier.
in a quick search, this was the earliest i could find, there might be even earlier prints around.

http://www.collectorsprints.com/834/antiqueprint/bulldog

v
Grant

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Reply with quote  #5 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenK
Interesting.  Wondering if the Mastiff would come in around the same area as the Boerboel?  Also interesting that they are showing the Bulldog to have such low bite force in light of the fact that I thought they were bred to grab and hang on.  Or am I wrong on that?

Karen
I think if the bite meter was in a bulls nose, the score would change !!!
And i wonder if all the dogs tested, were suitably wound up to be equal in aggression ?

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erikam

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Reply with quote  #6 
I am wondering why anyone cares ? Isn't this a bit of the case of "my legs are long enough to reach the ground"? If a Shutz protection dog can hang on his weight (off the ground on the sleeve) who cares the pounds per inch ?  When a shark chomps a surfers leg, do you care if it is reef shark or a blue shark ? Chomp is chomp.
This reminds me of the "smartest dog" tests, they put a barrier and see if the dog can figure out how to get around it, and the "smartest" dog is the one that does it the fastest, and they turn a box upside down and the "smartest" dog is the one that gets the cookie out from under the box...if the dog doesn't particularly want to be with the person on the other side of the barrier (let's say it is coursing hound that has been bred for 100 years to be aloof.....) or the dog really doesn't give a poop about the cookie (let's say it is lap dog that has been bred for 100 years to only eat Skaggs Liver Pate or the like)...
What does the "bite-o-meter" actually tell us ? Anything about skull proportions ? Bone densities ? muscle development? motivation ? eagerness to learn ? ability to adapt? importance of zygomatic arch development ? head proportions ? herding ability ? protection ability ? dentition ? Under bite vs level vs scissors ?  anything other than what most people who have fussed with dogs for any length of time already know, bite inhibition in puppies is critical because today ANY dog-bites-man is news (unlike "the old days" when people knew dogs bit, horse kicked, cows pooped, cocks crowed etc etc??) ???
(whew, pent up rant-feelings I guess LOL )

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #7 
I guess Erika it's much like 0 to 60 times in cars!

It's a combination of factors that create low 0-60 numbers, even though one may have little use for the outcome in everyday driving.

Still adds to the mystique if nothing else!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
erikam

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Reply with quote  #8 
Good answer Steve !!!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #9 
B-r-e-a-t-h-e.  Feel better now?  

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikam
I am wondering why anyone cares ? Isn't this a bit of the case of "my legs are long enough to reach the ground"? If a Shutz protection dog can hang on his weight (off the ground on the sleeve) who cares the pounds per inch ?  When a shark chomps a surfers leg, do you care if it is reef shark or a blue shark ? Chomp is chomp.
This reminds me of the "smartest dog" tests, they put a barrier and see if the dog can figure out how to get around it, and the "smartest" dog is the one that does it the fastest, and they turn a box upside down and the "smartest" dog is the one that gets the cookie out from under the box...if the dog doesn't particularly want to be with the person on the other side of the barrier (let's say it is coursing hound that has been bred for 100 years to be aloof.....) or the dog really doesn't give a poop about the cookie (let's say it is lap dog that has been bred for 100 years to only eat Skaggs Liver Pate or the like)...
What does the "bite-o-meter" actually tell us ? Anything about skull proportions ? Bone densities ? muscle development? motivation ? eagerness to learn ? ability to adapt? importance of zygomatic arch development ? head proportions ? herding ability ? protection ability ? dentition ? Under bite vs level vs scissors ?  anything other than what most people who have fussed with dogs for any length of time already know, bite inhibition in puppies is critical because today ANY dog-bites-man is news (unlike "the old days" when people knew dogs bit, horse kicked, cows pooped, cocks crowed etc etc??) ???
(whew, pent up rant-feelings I guess LOL )


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erikam

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Reply with quote  #10 
b-i-t-e  .....Now I do
Steph

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Reply with quote  #11 
Bulldogs bite and lock, they do not tear. We had Bullies up until the last one passed in 1989. When they lock, they lock those jaws.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #12 
Seizing and holding is not locking and that myth has overlapped into Pitbulls as well.

The design is not meant for tearing & slashing, it's constructed to grip & hold.

The modern Bulldog's jaws & body are not as efficient as their predecessors and would not perform as well in the task they were originally meant to do.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Steph

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 912
Reply with quote  #13 
Ours would grab and hold.  They DO lock their jaws.

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“Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
Steve Jobs
erikam

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
They DO lock their jaws.
  With what ? Does the muscle sieze or permanently contract and won't un-contract ? Is there a piece of bone that moves into a hole or a groove or cup that stops the jaw from opening ? What is the locking mechanism? 
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

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LOCKING JAWS? IMPOSSIBLE

skull.jpg

The diagram above shows the correct skull structure, jaw alignment, and dentition for mesocephalic breeds of dogs. Mesocephalic refers to those breeds whose length of muzzle approximates the length of the top skull. These breeds when correctly structured have a scissors bite, with the top teeth meeting tightly in front of the bottom teeth.

Most of the breeds of dogs lumped under the ubiquitous heading of “pit bull” are mesocephalic, but some are not.

There is no supernatural structure to these breed’s skull, jaw, or teeth. That any dog is capable of locking its jaw is a myth.

Sound, correct dogs have 42 teeth after the seven month molars erupt. Dogs may exhibit malocclusions, or genetically missing teeth, usually pre-molars.

There are two more types of skull that are displayed in dogs. The brachycephalic which is the very short faced seen in breeds such as the Bulldog, Pug, Boston terrier, Pekingese, American Bulldog, etc. These breeds are predisposed to malocclusions, and to missing teeth due to crowding. These breeds are prognathous jawed, with the lower teeth protruding in front of the top teeth.

The dolichocephalic type of skull is long, and narrow, the muzzle is longer than the top skull. It is common in breeds such as the Borzoi, the Bull Terrier, and the Collie. The long narrow jaws appear to be able to hold more teeth, but these breeds also have 42 teeth.

These are the facts about dog skull configuration.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Denny

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 867
Reply with quote  #16 

I keep looking at this thread and hoping that someone will tie this into something like how much pressure does it take to say remove a leg or arm or finger.  I'm not trying to be too descriptive but without that I don't know which ones to possibly be afraid of - kinda thing - maybe only expose my legs and keep my arms and fingers to myself.  I mean these stats sound impressive but my son's cat almost removed the tip of my thumb when the cat was about 2 yo. - so I'd have to know how much pressure it takes to do the job - what ever the animal thought the job might be.

collie

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Reply with quote  #17 
I thought everyone knew "locking" was a muscular thing, nothing to do with the skeleton!
There is however, an interesting passage in Wynn, "Rufus had a 

remarkably prolonged muzzle, and I kept his skull ; it shows 

that he had two supernumary false molars direclly behind 

the canines on each side of the superior maxillary." This something I've never seen.

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Tracy

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Reply with quote  #18 
Those bite force numbers only matter if you are the one being bitten!!
I have been bitten by a few different breeds, several cats, and at least two very large birds, and by far the bird hurt the most, the cat caused the most damage ( lots of bite force on a feral cat, bitten 21 times on both hands , long story), the rottie bite was a rescue bit with tremendous force, crushed some tissue but healed quickly.
I know that steve never posts anything without a reason, so I assume a bite happened. Biggest problem that you will see now is a cellulitis in a non healing wound, and if in combo with a crush injury can be a problem, because the normal granulocytes ( wbc) that fight infection cannot get into the area and cells to fight the infection.

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erikam

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
I thought everyone knew "locking" was a muscular thing, nothing to do with the skeleton!

I thought everyone knew it was nonsense, which was why I asked a (rhetorical) question as to the mechanism....
Could you please explain how certain breeds of dogs "lock" their jaws with their muscles ? I am particularly interested in the distinction between "a locked jaw" and simply keeping the the mouth closed, an action which is not restricted to bully breeds, as anyone who has had to view the bite on a toy breed knows. 

erikam

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
I know that steve never posts anything without a reason, so I assume a bite happened.

I think he said it was like a guy thing Tracy...
Quote:
it's much like 0 to 60 times in cars! 
It's a combination of factors that create low 0-60 numbers, even though one may have little use for the outcome in everyday driving.          
Still adds to the mystique if nothing else!


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