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DaveOwen

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Posted 06/21/12 at 03:20 PMReply with quote #1 

Delilah was tested after impregnation, she is CMR1 affected.

Our puppies have been tested, we have 9 carriers, and 6 affected.

Our guarantee is as follows in our contract...........................

 

      4 - Affected Mastiff is warranted for life at 110% of purchase price towards any CMR1 related veterinary costs.

      4a- In the case of affected dogs, the breeder will reimburse the cost of a CERF exam by a veterinary ophthalmologist at 4-6months and again at 2 years in addition to part 4

       4b- CMR1 was explained to me and I am aware of the links to the Optigen website on breeder’s website. 

 (Buyer’s Initials: __________)

 ...............................................................

Any monetary costs I feel are our responsibilities.

Unfortunately so far, the non-monetary costs have been immeasurable for us.

 

 

 

 Is there more we can/should do?

 
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LindaGreesonRice

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Posted 06/21/12 at 03:49 PMReply with quote #2 

Ungortunately, your puppy results mean that your stud dog (sire of the puppies) is also a CMR1 carrier. This is why testin is so important - if your affected bitch had been bred to a clear dog, you would hae onl produced carriers, none affected. 

 

I think it would be important to place the affected puppies on a spay/neuter contrat.

 

I know this is a heart breaking experience for you - and an expensive lesson to boot. I totally admire your honesty with this situation - hopefully others will learn from it too. Some good will come fromj this if it teaches other breeders the importance of tesing.
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Linda Greeson Rice
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
KarenK

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Posted 06/21/12 at 04:40 PMReply with quote #3 
Linda is right on that the stud dog must be a carrier.  I'm so sorry this has happened to you but I think you are handling it responsibly.  All affected puppies must be spayed/neutered and all carriers must only be bred to dogs tested clear.  

One thing I would do if I were still breeding is sell "pet quality" for full price with a $500 refund when proof of spay or neutered is provided.  I think that provides a pretty good incentive to follow through.   

Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaGreesonRice

Ungortunately, your puppy results mean that your stud dog (sire of the puppies) is also a CMR1 carrier. This is why testin is so important - if your affected bitch had been bred to a clear dog, you would hae onl produced carriers, none affected. 

 

I think it would be important to place the affected puppies on a spay/neuter contrat.

 

I know this is a heart breaking experience for you - and an expensive lesson to boot. I totally admire your honesty with this situation - hopefully others will learn from it too. Some good will come fromj this if it teaches other breeders the importance of tesing.
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Dixie

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Posted 06/21/12 at 05:11 PMReply with quote #4 
Some of life's lessons are incredibly hard to bear. I know you must
be devastated. Thank you for being so open about this and trying
to do the right thing.
I agree with a mandatory spay/neuter as this is something you don't
want to pass to the next generation.
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LindaGreesonRice

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Posted 06/21/12 at 07:26 PMReply with quote #5 

I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS ALL DAY - and I just feel so sorry for the breeders and how completely devistated they must be.  I know they should have tested, but this is just so awful to happen to them. I hate when bad things happen to good people.
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Linda Greeson Rice
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
LindaGreesonRice

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Posted 06/21/12 at 07:38 PMReply with quote #6 

I checked out your web page - you have beautiful girls. I hope you breed them again - just be sure to breed then to CMR1 N/N boys. You can keep babies back for yourself and go forwards - by testing you can eliminate this problem completely - don't throw the baby out wit the bath water
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Linda Greeson Rice
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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
Crossroads

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Posted 06/21/12 at 08:34 PMReply with quote #7 
I couldn't help but be struck by the words used in the other comments here...heartbreaking, devastating, incredibly hard to bare. Really? For goodness sake, this is not the end of the world. CMR1 is not a disease that kills, it's not even a disease that causes pain! Dave is perfectly willing to do the right thing with his contract. There is no reason what so ever that these puppies can't go on to live happy, healthy lives. This does not fall under the definition of tragedy, trust me. Geez!

If everybody would just stop and think about it, Mastiffs have been walking around with CMR1 for a long time. Just because they've only just started testing for it doesn't mean Mastiffs have only just started having it. I agree that people should test for it. Don't jump on me for that. I test my dogs. I just think we could tone down the drama a bit. The affected are beautiful puppies that will make awesome pets. This shouldn't be a deal breaker for anyone.



From the Optigen website: (notice blindness is NOT mentioned!!)

The disease generally develops in young dogs before 4 months and might progress slowly, might appear to heal, or might even appear and then go away again. Some dogs affected with CMR do not show clinical symptoms of disease until later in life. The modifiers of CMR disease are a subject of research interest. Some lesions disappear with no remaining sign, while some lesions leave a wrinkled area – a fold. Some leave the lasting lesion of a blister formation. Most dogs exhibit no noticeable problem with vision despite their abnormal appearing retinas. And in almost all cases, CMR does not progress significantly over time. The disease seems to have a consistent pattern among the breeds identified so far, although lesions in the Coton de Tulear are often more serious and seem to remain longer than in some of the other CMR-affected breeds. In rare severe cases, the clinical diagnosis could be confused with progressive retinal atrophy (PRA). The full range of clinical symptoms will learned as more dogs are tested for their genetic status.



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DaveOwen

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Posted 06/21/12 at 08:47 PMReply with quote #8 

 Thank you, all we can do now is continue with knowledge, I am very familiar with the breeding strategy, and am thank full this is something that can be bred away from, no puppies are being sold with rights from this litter and yes I have a spay neter on pets. We require a notary to witness.

Based on the few tested, I suspect the #'s would be further skewed once this is tested for more. not many people test for it 

           The least I hope for is by having Cerf tests done, possibly more is known, I have contacted quite a few people to ask for information..

 

from Optigen

 

as of May 31

 

375 tested mastiffs

 

19 affected....approx  5%

 

98 carriers....approx  26%

 

now..390 tested

 

25 affected  6.4%

 107 carriers  27.4%

 

 

 

 
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alwcm4

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Posted 06/21/12 at 11:18 PMReply with quote #9 

CMR and PRA were the 1st two tests I ran on Brinkley, mainly because she was only 8 months and I could do them with DNA with no age restrictions.  I noticed that CMR is one that isn't as readily tested for like PRA is and I always wondered why. 


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alwcm4

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Posted 06/21/12 at 11:23 PMReply with quote #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaGreesonRice

I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS ALL DAY - and I just feel so sorry for the breeders and how completely devistated they must be.  I know they should have tested, but this is just so awful to happen to them. I hate when bad things happen to good people.

 

I read this at work earlier too and have been thinking about it all day too, it's just horrible.  I'm so sorry you're going through this.  They good thing is you are doing all you can going forward and will be there to support these puppies for their whole lives, kudos for being responsible when so many would not if they were in your shoes.

 

Could you talk to the stud dog owner too and see if they would waive the stud fee seeing how you are taking on such a huge future committment to pay for these puppies eye care?  I know it sucks, and I'm not trying to 'blame' anyone, and you obviously feel terrible, but the stud dog owner is just as responsible in this situation IMO.  It takes 2 to tango.
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Posted 06/21/12 at 11:27 PMReply with quote #11 

I agree with Amanda. The stud owner is part of this now and she needs to get involved.

 

H
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dixierockstarr

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Posted 06/21/12 at 11:57 PMReply with quote #12 
I have major respect for you to come out completely honest. You're name is definitely on my list to contact when I'm ready for my puppy.
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Posted 06/22/12 at 12:23 AMReply with quote #13 
Thanks Dave for being so HONEST!!!! Takes a good person to" man/ woman" up when things are rough. Heartbreaking, YES!! But I admire the fact you are honest. It still means a lot to some of us!!!!
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DaveOwen

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Posted 06/22/12 at 01:28 AMReply with quote #14 

 these are our puppies with our prefix, I take full responsibility for my choices, choice of stud was ours, same as not testing Delilah sooner.  

 

 

 as for being honest, it's just the right way to live.

 

 

 

 
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LindaGreesonRice

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Posted 06/22/12 at 11:25 AMReply with quote #15 

Rockport - no tesing
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Linda Greeson Rice
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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
Becky

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Posted 06/22/12 at 12:56 PMReply with quote #16 
If i remember right only 6% of affected dogs have vision issues, unlike PRA which is 100%. Feel free to correct me if this is wrong... I think CMR was part of a health seminar at the 2009 MCOA specialty so maybe somebody has the stats?
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DaveOwen

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Posted 06/22/12 at 01:22 PMReply with quote #17 

my intention with posting this was to be able to further my own research into CMR past what I can read about it, and to share what I have found out.

 

this issue is mine, choices were made that I can not change, I hold no one else accountable.

 

I am thank full to have my girls,

 

knowing what I know now, I still would not trade either of them for anything,

 

I have learned an incredibly humbling lesson and will ensure I never have affected puppies again.

 

 

 

Becky, in that 6%, that would vary from slight obstruction of peripheral vision to ???????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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Becky

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Posted 06/22/12 at 01:45 PMReply with quote #18 
That is what i am not sure about, how affected the vision becomes?. I know of a breeder who had affected pups but said it was such a non issue, and is basically ignoring. I own a CMR carrier bitch so I'm always glad to get the word out about CMR and prevent any affected pups. At least 25% of tested Mastiffs are carriers or have it, yet they have only 400 results, so do most people think its not something to worry about? I'm curious as well.
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Teresa

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Posted 06/22/12 at 02:36 PMReply with quote #19 
I have two carrier bitches so that's a test that is a must for any any living stud dog I use. The exception was when I used frozen on a long deceased dog. We tested every pup and against all odds, there wasn't even one carrier. That was a huge relief. But, the lines I bred to didn't have any CMR in later generations so I felt pretty confident all would okay. I think more and more people are testing for it now since we know it seems to be relatively prevalent in our breed. I do applaud owners for letting us all know so we don't double up on it!
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Posted 06/23/12 at 02:41 AMReply with quote #20 
My 2 cents, for what its worth. I think being up front & honest is a true testament to your character! IMHO, I think people sometimes try to hide any problems that arise in their lines/breedings maybe feeling as though its a reflection on their success or knowledge in breeding or maybe out of embarrassment or (hopefully not) just not caring. Honesty really is the best policy! I think that is the first thing a puppy buyer should look for in finding a breeder...to me, that is reputable!
If I can trust you, I would feel you are there for the life of the dog!
When trying to cover things up...it may not come out now, but eventually turns up in the wash, so it may be later when people find out the hidden "problem", but once they do, the trust is gone & the reputation tarnished!
As a buyer, I think the contract is most generous!!! I know some would hide it, some would disclose it, but only offer a "pet" price & sterilization contract. So that is really great from a buyer's perspective!
I think you are doing the right thing just by being up front about it alone!
And just one thing about it being "not painful"...I cannot imagine if having an ulcer on the eye would NOT be painful! Animals are great at hiding pain! The eye is a sensitive area & an ulcer WOULD be painful to ANY living being! :/ That kind of surprised me...

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Posted 06/23/12 at 03:20 AMReply with quote #21 
  Sadly, this is why you must do the PRA, CMR-1 and the cystinuria testing on any stud dog you use--I don't care who owns it, breeds or what lines it is out of--if you don't test you can't know what is there.  I recently was considering a very beautiful import dog as a stud--I asked his owner to do these tests--his Cystinuria test came back 4+--so there will be no breeding to him for me.

You know it's there--so that knowledge can help you prevent a repeat with your next breeding.  Take it as a lesson learned.  

Dave--I definately, would not line breed again on any of the lines behind your girls.  You know the problem is there--so breed away from it.  As Linda stated--look for a good stud dog  who is tested normal/clear of CMR-1.   Linda has a couple--I have one--there are a couple that Eileen bred out there--all of them very nice fully health tested proven stud dogs.
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Posted 06/23/12 at 07:10 PMReply with quote #22 
Dave, I am so sorry this happened but MAJOR KUDOS for the way you're handling it!!! You've certainly earned my respect for what that's worth lol! 
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Posted 06/23/12 at 09:59 PMReply with quote #23 

By being upfront, and knowing each puppies status I hope that the Cerf exams will help to find issues before they are problems, if a puppy shows anything on either of the Cerf exams we will know that at least a yearly eye exam is needed.

through a member, I have an invitation to call Dr. Grahn, he first described and named CMR. I am very much looking forward to speaking with him, I will share what I learn.

 
 
 
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Posted 06/24/12 at 12:11 PMReply with quote #24 
Both sire & dam should be clear of any health issues. Clear to clear and nothing else being bred.
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Posted 06/24/12 at 03:42 PMReply with quote #25 

Kathy, are all of your breeding stock tested for CMR? The reason I ask is that I don't see too many breeders testing for that in all of their breeding stock. I just learned about it 2 or 3 years ago and do test for it now.

 

I disagree with not breeding Carriers as long as you breed to a clear. If you have a really nice carrier and breed to a clear and then continue that process, you no longer have affecteds. I can't imagine passing up a really nice bitch or stud dog simply because it was a carrier (assuming you are breeding to a clear). Of course, the exception to that is with a dominant recessive gene then that changes the whole equation.


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Posted 06/24/12 at 04:51 PMReply with quote #26 
So as not to add to the confusion, genes are "recessive", "dominant" or even "co-dominant" but not "dominant recessive" which would be like saying a dog is dominant submissive.  

Dominant genes do not need to come in pairs to have an effect.  Recessive genes require two copies to have an effect. Carriers of dominant genes can usually readily be identified because the effect can be seen.  Carriers of recessive genes cannot be identified unless there are DNA tests for the presence of the gene. I believe it was stated that the CMR screening tests for the presence of the marker for recessive CMR gene.  Markers are areas of a chromosome closely associated with a gene and usually passed along with it so it's assumed, if you see the marker, the gene is also there.

Clear as mud?    


Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa

... Of course, the exception to that is with a dominant recessive gene then that changes the whole equation.
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Posted 06/24/12 at 04:57 PMReply with quote #27 

LOL, you are absolutely right Karen. I totally misworded that!


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Posted 06/24/12 at 09:33 PMReply with quote #28 

the pick girl from our litter is a carrier.


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Posted 06/24/12 at 11:07 PMReply with quote #29 
Congratulations!  Bet you never thought you'd be happy to find your pick of the litter is a carrier.  
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Posted 06/25/12 at 12:03 PMReply with quote #30 
While we're on the subject, did you test the entire litter and, if so, what was the cost and how long did it take to get the results?  Is it run on blood or cheek cells?

I could probably find those answers if I did a little research but I'm being lazy.  
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Posted 06/25/12 at 12:33 PMReply with quote #31 

with the pick girl, we are very thank full

 

we did test the litter, 15 puppies... in hind site I wish we had kept tissue samples from the still born and the pup we lost at week 1. so not sure if that 15 could truly be called the whole litter

 

Optigen gave us a 25% discount off of the $95 us cost, our vet was very kind to us as well on the blood draws. the risk of contamination pretty much ruled out cheek swabs at 4 weeks

 

not sure on shipping

 

we had the results in 15 days

 

 

 

 

 

 

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gallantmastiff

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Posted 06/25/12 at 04:57 PMReply with quote #32 
I just wanted to step in here and say that I also was made aware of this abt 2 yrs ago and tested all of mine here also. I think if I am not mistaken, I actually mentioned this on this site and I beleive Catie was the only one that responded. However, I do so agree with Teresa, it would seem a shame to have a beautiful bitch or stud that is a carrier and not be able to use them.
My one bitch is a carrier and I spent 6 months looking for a clear stud last year. I must say that every Breeder I looked at, who had not tested for CMR, did do it for me and I am very thankful for that. But I was quite surprised with the amount of studs that came back as carriers. Safe to say, I do know most of the ones now that are NOT carriers! lol!
So, yes, CMR is definitly one of the least invasive diseases our dogs can be affected by,but if we know how to get rid of it, we certainly should try.
I agree Dave is doing the right thing by testing his litter and all affecteds shud be sold as pets only.
Hopefully, this will be the least issue that these precious pups have in their lifetime, but not having any testing done on the stud would be of concern to me.
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Posted 06/25/12 at 05:15 PMReply with quote #33 
I know Linda has tested and cleared her dogs--I have tested and cleared all of my dogs that I breed.

I am still amazed at the number of breeders who have no idea what CMR-1 is , how it is inherited , or how to breed to decrease/eliminate it in a breeding program.

Dave, keep your keeper girl--find a male that is tested clear--in her litter test and hopefully your next keeper will be a clear--if not, once again only breed to a clear.  I did the same with the long-hair gene (recessive) and in 2 generations I had eliminated it from my lines.

Health testing provides knowledge about your lines--knowing it's there is a positive for you because you can now breed to eliminate it from your program.  Sticking your head under a rock and ignoring it (like some breeders)--does't fix the problem.
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Posted 06/25/12 at 07:10 PMReply with quote #34 

I just had a very encouraging conversation with Dr. Grahn, I will be condensing our conversation and very graciously he agreed to look at it before I post it...

 

Connie, I cannot express my self disappointment with words, only echo what you said

 

 "Hopefully, this will be the least issue that these precious pups have in their lifetime"

 

Thank you Catie, I will say, I will never breed without testing on my girls, and will certainly require it of the stud
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Posted 06/25/12 at 10:10 PMReply with quote #35 
Dave I learned the testing lesson the hard way myself. I had a big brindle girl with complete testing, and going to a stud with complete testing, the stud had no semen at the time of the breeding, so I brought one of my boys in. We put him on the table and the X-rays showed a bad hip, and his heart had a murmur, the results of which I didn't get back until after I had bred them. The breeding didn't take, but a big lesson learned for me.

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Posted 07/15/12 at 02:18 AMReply with quote #36 
Have been in contact with Optigen and they will be offering a 20% off + 5% off for registering online for the CMR1 & PRA testing in a week and a half.They sent me swabs so I'm all set to test.
Was going to a clinic in Flanders,N.J. but this will be easier on my Mastiffs with the hot weather.
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Posted 07/15/12 at 05:36 AMReply with quote #37 
Dave. I have been following your litter and now this. I commend you for your honestly and integrity. You are doing the right thing and should be very pleased with yourself. I am sorry for the results, but knowing what you can do to follow up in your breeding program should be a comfort. You are ethical and I'm proud to know ya!
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Posted 07/16/12 at 09:54 AMReply with quote #38 
Kathy, I have searched the Optigen site for the testing information (for the discount), I need to have some done, can you please put up a link?

Thanks!
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Posted 07/16/12 at 03:02 PMReply with quote #39 
It wil be posted in 1 1/2 -2 weeks I was told. Will be on Optigen home page & clinic page. They can mail you swabs if you call them & ask. Or could do the blood test if you rather.
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Posted 07/17/12 at 04:16 AMReply with quote #40 
I haven't checked the forum for a long time. I just wanted to respond to a comment from AngiS about it being painful. It is not understood to be painful. It may be described as a lesion, but it is actually a malformation in the eye, not a sore or ulcer. People can develop retinol folds and it is not painful, but with people it usually comes from a disease process, unlike CMR which is genetic.
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Posted 07/17/12 at 09:15 AMReply with quote #41 
Thanks Kathy!
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Posted 09/15/12 at 11:00 PMReply with quote #42 
 Bacardi, Mae & Nan are clear/normal for CMR1 & PRA Homozygous Normal.
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DaveOwen

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Posted 09/28/12 at 12:09 AMReply with quote #43 
got the first cerf exam results back on one of the pups

"Retinal folds not lesions and they do not think it is progressive. did tell us to come back in a year to check again."
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People say Mastiffs are stubborn, I say ‘they actively question the validity of what we want‘

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EyotaMastiffs

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Posted 09/28/12 at 08:55 AMReply with quote #44 
We were just able to offer a CMR & PRA clinic at the Northeast Ohio Mastiff Clinic two weeks ago (and got my CMR1 testing results back yesterday , BTW). Clubs and shows offer numerous clinics throughout the year, and Optigen encourages them.

Here is a list of current upcoming clinics. Some are breed specific, and some are all breed:
http://www.optigen.com/opt11_calendar.taf

They also offer "discount days" for Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter every single year. Testing SCHEDULED online in (typically) January, July, September and December will get you a 25% discount on both tests. Once scheduled, you have 30 days to get it done and shipped to Optigen. I try to post them on the boards when I know they are up and the discount codes are available.

Doing both tests at our clinic at the picnic saved me about $60, if I remember right.
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