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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #1 
Some fanciers have stated that a very short coat on a Mastiff, is just as bad as a long coat.

While I can understand the logic is such conclusions, it is factually incorrect.

Going back to Stonehenge, Wynn and early OEMC standards, we see that the preferred coat was short and close lying. It was later amended to read...but not too fine over the shoulders, back & neck. Later still, the AKC standard added ....outer coat moderately coarse, under coat dense, short and close lying.

Presently, we see a whole range of hair lengths, with outercoats and undercoats appearing in a multitude of acceptable ranges.

Once again, many fanciers will discount the coat, since they will argue it is only cosmetic.

I would argue, that the Mastiff does not do well when it is overheated. A dense undercoat would only serve a dog well in colder climates. In a warm environment, a dense undercoat would only serve to retain heat, and it's but one reason why dogs shed.

With the Mastiff, we are dealing with elements of body mass pushed to it's limits.
Heat dispersion should be a prime requisite, when factoring in coat qualities of a dog this size. Unlike other large breeds, that were used in mountainous, or cold weather venues, the present Mastiff form was not designed for hot climates coupled to a dense undercoat.

The human brain is large and needs to be cooled by heat regulation through perspiration. In fact, we humans have the greatest surface area dedicated to perspiration of any other creature. It's one reason we have lost our body hair and have more glands per square inch, that enable us to perspire compared to any other creature on earth.

The dog has a limited area for this transferring of heat. Basically, the mouth, pads & ears, are the only mechanism designed for this process. It works well in smaller canines, but it does not work well in giants.

Therefore, a dense undercoat in a Mastiff would not be a desirable trait in areas that are subject to warm weather conditions. One could also make the argument, that even in more northerly moderate temperature zones, a dense undercoat could still adversely affect a Mastiff that is active in it's daily life.
Perhaps it is the reason why the founders called for a finer coat than we see today in a number of our present Mastiffs. It's bad enough at shows when we need to keep ice & wet towels handy, so that our dogs don't stroke out. Why compound the chance of heat stroke by maintaining dense coats, even though the AKC standard enabled this to develop.

Fur is an insulator and less fur will have lower R values compared to dense coats. Logically, we should attempt to maintain a finer coat if health is at issue. I would not be opposed to a reversal of wording in the AKC standard, going back to part of the original description regarding coat quality (i.e. Hard, Short and Fine ....c1880).

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #2 
logic in such.....typo
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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WalnutCrest

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Reply with quote  #3 
Well, Steve, one way around the "not enough surface area dedicated to staying cool" is to continue breeding larger-eared specimens.
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #4 
Or, we just need to reduce the size of their brain!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
erikam

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Reply with quote  #5 

Quote:

The dog has a limited area for this transferring of heat. Basically, the mouth, pads & ears, are the only mechanism designed for this process. It works well in smaller canines, but it does not work well in giants.
Therefore, a dense undercoat in a Mastiff would not be a desirable trait in areas that are subject to warm weather conditions. One could also make the argument, that even in more northerly moderate temperature zones, a dense undercoat could still adversely affect a Mastiff that is active in it's daily life.


Hate to inject logic into a good rant, but....

Think about it ....dogs do not sweat through their skin - there is not a huge cooling advantage to having slightly less coat. We sweat through our skin, getting naked is helpful. Horse sweat through their skin, being shaved is helpful. If there was a cooling advantage for dogs, most vets and goomers would shave all dogs - they do not. Northern breeds or super heavy like rough Sts or Newfies but few mastiffs get close to that coat.

Fine like a greyhound - the smooth, silk-like nature was what was admired, if one considers the importance and expense of really good textiles it makes sense as a mark of refinement  ...also if a house dog, cleaner.

And as anyone who has lived in England knows, it is frigging cold and wet, and then in summer, warm for about 2 days, then cold and wet again.

But, subjectively and personally, I like a finer coat.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #6 
It's why I mentioned the R-factor.

Body temperature is radiated through the skin. If trapped under a dense undercoat, there is less loss of heat (more logic for the rant)!
If there was not a huge cooling advantage to having slightly less coat, then why do coats vary in density? It's why bald guys wear hats in the Winter.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #7 
Insulation , works both ways remember !! 
A thick coat will keep the sun of the body mass, while as a short coat will let the sun straight through !
A polystyrene cup will keep drinks hot or cold !! 

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Grant
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Reply with quote  #8 
Also if a thick fur coated animal, soak's in a pool on a hot day, once out, it will stay cooler for longer than a short haired coat which will dry almost immediately !! 
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CChauncey

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Reply with quote  #9 
Can we have a coat that doesn't shed pls?
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Grant

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CChauncey
Can we have a coat that doesn't shed pls?

Cindy, have you forgotten this post of your's ?
Kijiji: Mastiff x Poodle

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Grant
erikam

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
If there was not a huge cooling advantage to having slightly less coat, then why do coats vary in density?


Well the short answer is the second law of thermodynamics LOL
"
Heat conduction, also called diffusion, is the direct microscopic exchange of kinetic energy of particles through the boundary between two systems. When an object is at a different temperature from another body or its surroundings, heat flows so that the body and the surroundings reach the same temperature, at which point they are in thermal equilibrium. Such spontaneous heat transfer always occurs from a region of high temperature to another region of lower temperature, as described by the second law of thermodynamics."


Long answer...
Lots of reasons Steve. 
Dogs dissipate heat through evaporation (like us) but they do not have sweat glands to provide the moisture for evaporation through out their skin surface (as we do) they expel heat through evaporation from mouth and feet.  Yes indeed blood circulates through skin, and where there is no fur, there is some cooling effect (hence the joke about larger ears, if posts from the past about heat dispersion through larger mastiff ears is forgotten, perhaps that is for the best LOL) but it is trivial compared to main method of dissipating heat.  Insulation works in both directions - the 6 inches in my attic keeps my internal house temperature stable so it does not fluctuate with outside temperature.  Imagine that there is only one window air condition in one window in my house - to cool off the house on a very hot day, pulling insulation from the attic would not be terribly effective, and 2nd law says if the house was cooler than outide, removing the insulation would cause hot to migrate IN !!

There a lots and lots and lots of reasons dogs have different coats (and gee, some are aesthetic LOL) If you look at wolves, or coyote, or wild dogs - you dont see excessively short or excessive long coats (please let's not try to prove the rule with the exception)

Lots of reasons Steve.  Remember that story about the Monks crossing Newfies with Sts to get longer hair so the dogs would be warmer ? They too misunderstood the role coat plays in dogs. Recall the problem that introduced ? 
Coats can be too long, so they attract fleas, hold dirt, get caught on things (plants, burrs, etc), tangled, matted, etc. Lots of reasons that it would make sense for certain dogs (and animals) to have shorter coats. If the climate was not cold, it would make even more sense as they have no major differences between external and internal temperatures - 101 or so inside and 102 outside dont need insulation.
Coats can be too short for all kinds of reasons - major differences between external temps (-20) and internal (101) ... 2nd law baby !!, skin gets scraped or cut on vegetation (briars or tough terrain) or by other animals or in burrows or cairns, need water proofing or buoyancy (newfies, porties, chessies, labs, goldens) --well you get the idea.
Just about the only really naked beasts around are reptiles, and they have no internal heat regulation. Oh, and us of course!
Hope that helps to answer your question.





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CChauncey

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Reply with quote  #12 

Grant.....I have forgotten!?


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #13 
A short coat can still block the sun and reflect rays, provided it is silver fawn. Brindles would absorb the sun's rays more readily. Although a dense coat would hold water longer than a shorter coat, most dogs don't walk around wet 24/7. Evaporation is what cools the skin and a wet coat that traps water won't evaporate well and displace heat efficiently.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #14 
I might add, that a shorter coat enhances & enables the muscles to be sharply defined, as called for in the OEMC standard.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #15 
We tend to forget, or discount what a long coat does to type, since it's hard to visually see well defined muscles in a Newf.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #16 



VS



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CChauncey

Grant.....I have forgotten!?


Shedding: The Mastidoodle can be a low to moderate shedding dog depending on the coat type the inherit.

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Reply with quote  #18 

Tks Grant!  Let me be more specific.....non shedding & NOT long haired either!


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Reply with quote  #19 
Hair changes type...serious eye roll. I guess paint color changes engine power too then.

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Reply with quote  #20 
 

I see what you mean Steve !!

I have three Mastiff dogs, one with hair very short like a Greyhound, one more like a Labrador without under coat and the other like a Lab with a heavy coat.
I prefer the middle one, but all would show, and not be penalized, the one with the longest heaviest coat looks bulkier although no heavier than the middle one, and because the hair is not as long as the newfy's it actually makes the muscle look bigger !!  

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Grant
erikam

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
I might add, that a shorter coat enhances & enables the muscles to be sharply defined, as called for in the OEMC standard.


I agree. And i really do like a coat fine as a greyhound. Would I move heaven and earth to get it or keep it...no, but I do like it !!

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h

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Reply with quote  #22 
I like a short coat on a Mastiff as well.  I like to see the musculature.

H

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
If you look at wolves, or coyote, or wild dogs - you dont see excessively short or excessive long coats (please let's not try to prove the rule with the exception)

Lots of reasons Steve.  Remember that story about the Monks crossing Newfies with Sts to get longer hair so the dogs would be warmer ? They too misunderstood the role coat plays in dogs. Recall the problem that introduced ? 


If you look at wolves & coyotes, you see very dense coats. It's why they were used for collars on Winter clothing. The Saint issue was one of ice forming on the coats, due to heavy snow, which inhibited their performance in the field. It had little to do with it not being a better insulator in cold weather.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #24 
Grant, enhancing muscle mass is different than sharp definition.



VS


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Hair changes type...serious eye roll. I guess paint color changes engine power too then.


Think it through Teresa!



VS




A Komondor vs a shaved Komondor. Is type not affected?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Teresa

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Reply with quote  #26 
Mastiffs aren't Komondors. Mastiffs are not a coat breed.

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Reply with quote  #27 
I was referring to those who believe the fluff has no impact on type.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #28 
BTW, did you hear? The Mastiff is no longer a head breed either!!!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #29 
It's not. It takes the sum of the parts to make a whole. Though i agree the Mastiff should have a nice head, it should also have a nice, sound body. I've recently heard someone say that type is important but movement is not. To me, it's all important. A head without a good body isn't what I strive for. A typey mastiff that is crippled is a heart breaker for both the dog and the owner.
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Reply with quote  #30 
I have a neutered male that has an absolutely wonderful head. He's neutered because he has a hideous rear. I would not have considered breeding him because he had a great head. However, if he'd had a so so head and wonderful body, I might have considered breeding him to a girl with an awesome head.

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
Grant, enhancing muscle mass is different than sharp definition.



VS


Steve
I posted the picture of the Hungarian Puli to show i understood, what you were saying in the extreme, but your extreme examples are pointless in the enhancement of your point, as the Mastiff is not a typically muscular breed, and your top picture here, likely sums them up on average !!!
To show an average Mastiff's available muscle tone to anything like your bottom picture, you would have to feed huge amounts of protein, and treadmill them daily right through there growing years !!!

In other words a Mastiff can only show the muscle it has, as defined.

So although your premise is correct, the judge when two exactly the same muscled Mastiffs, but one has very short hair, and the other has longer plus under coat is put in front of him, the bulkier looking Mastiff, because of the thicker coat, has more chance of drawing his eye over a more muscular looking less bulky, thinner looking Mastiff !! 

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
Quote:
Hair changes type...serious eye roll. I guess paint color changes engine power too then.


Think it through Teresa!



VS




A Komondor vs a shaved Komondor. Is type not affected?


Seriously, how could you tell what the dog's type is under that mop? 
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Reply with quote  #33 
Going back to Stonehenge, Wynn and early OEMC standards, we see that the preferred coat was short and close lying. It was later amended to read...but not too fine over the shoulders, back & neck.

This coat offers an advantage for an outside working dog as it is where the elements would hit it offering some protection from them.
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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
A head without a good body isn't what I strive for


Who would strive for one without the other?

For some strange reason, some fanciers believe if a dog is considered a head breed, other body parts must suffer!

To that I say...... NONSENSE!!!

To deny that the Mastiff is a head breed is also .....NONSENSE!!!

A Mastiff without a Mastiff head is no longer a Mastiff, despite it's great pedigree & great movement!!!!



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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
This coat offers an advantage for an outside working dog as it is where the elements would hit it offering some protection from them.


One of those elements is ambient temperature!
A heavy dense undercoat will work against a Mastiff built with a large body mass, not speed.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #36 

Quote:
Seriously, how could you tell what the dog's type is under that mop? 


That's just the point!
Hair, is an inseparable component of type. Even if at times it may somewhat impede the ability to detect structural form when too abundant.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #37 
Grant,

Well defined muscles, means the ability to observe muscle definition and not just muscle mass.

We have come to accept the lot we generally see at shows and then use the argument of the entries at the show, to justify poor definition in Mastiffs.

Quote:
In other words a Mastiff can only show the muscle it has, as defined.


That's like stating a Mastiff can only be as tall as it is defined by it's height. So do we then justify 25" Mastiffs?


Loose skin, heavy coats and poor muscle tone, all detract from good muscle definition.


Anything in extreme will counter an argument.
But it's the concept that is being introduced, not the distorted exaggeration.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #38 

 

Old type Neapolitan and what happens when we forget the tenets of a standard!




VS




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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #39 


Infra-red thermal image of a dog.
Note the green & blue areas, which represent lower radiated
loss of heat. Areas of thinner fur density in red, enabling heat to escape.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #40 

In this photo of an Arctic fox, we see why the infra-red image displays the original protective design. The extremities are tucked under the insulated body and the head is insulated by the tail. The dense undercoat insures that heat is retained. This same principal applies to the northern wolf as well. These canids are typically lean, with little body fat to insulate them from very cold climates. They primarily rely upon the density of their undercoat to survive the frigid environment.

The ability to retain heat is provided by this dense undercoat, it's why the modern Mastiff is not served well with a heavier coat. The mass of muscle and typical body fat percentages in our modern breed, is more than adequate for our moderate climates. It does is not serve the breed well by adding a dense undercoat.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #41 
It does not....corrected typo

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #42 
http://www.isiutm.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/german-shepherd-dog.jpg

Of interest, is the saddle pattern in some breeds, which when compared to infra-red photos, becomes obvious that the black saddle may be designed to absorb heat over the area, that appears to radiate the least amount of heat. This may maintain body heat and act as a survival mechanism depending on terrain & milieu. The Arctic fox needs to be invisible, so white serves it best in that capacity, even though a black coat would in theory attract more heat. Considering the undercoat density of the fox, that heat might not reach the body, therefore it would not act efficiently in that capacity. The compromise is a white coat with dense ground.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #43 


The Arctic fox, during summer months, changes color to blend into the surrounding earth tones when the snow recedes. It then sheds it's darker coat in exchange for it white camouflage.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #44 
it's...typo
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #45 
The short muzzle preference in the early Mastiffs and the focus on not having long legs, both contribute to reduced surface areas which displace heat. The Mastiff is built in a way that retains heat and a dense undercoat is not a preferential trait we should encourage.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #46 

I was out this weekend getting ready for the upcoming winter, and I used my FLIR B series high resolution infrared camera to make sure the water bucket heaters and heated dog mats were working. It had just rained here in Riverton, UT and the two dogs were wet and chewing away on their new rawhide bones. I couldn't help but take some thermal images of these Golden Retrievers.

The are the same twin Goldens that made the Orvis Fall catalog. http://www.orvis.com/coverdog

Infrared Photo of Golden RetrieverInfrared Photo of Golden Retriever

Back in the summer, one of the guys was limping on his right front, we found nothing in his foot. But the infrared camera found his right shoulder 2 degrees warmer the his left shoulder and his brother's were normal. Guess what ? The vet found his right shoulder was inflamed. Equine science is now using high resolution infrared cameras on horses.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #47 
The above should be in quotes, as it was not my piece.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #48 
Why Dogs Blow Coat

Bretaigne Jones, DVM
Scientific Communications
Royal Canin, USA

It never seems to fail, you are within weeks of three major shows, and your bitch blows her coat. Talk about rotten timing, and it's going to take months for her to grow that hair back! Why now? What went wrong?

Well, for all the frustration it can cause, it is totally natural for dogs, especially bitches, to blow coat periodically. All dogs have the potential for that sudden, heavy shedding that leaves them looking like a grooming experiment gone terribly wrong. It is most noticeable in those dogs that have more undercoat, commonly referred to as double-coated.

Dogs have three types of hair. Primary hairs are also called guard hairs, and these are the outer coat hairs that are typically longer and stiffer. Secondary hairs refer to the short fluffy hairs that make up the undercoat, and serve as insulation. Puppies have all secondary hairs until about 6 months of age, which explains their soft coats. The third hair type is the tactile hairs which are commonly recognized as the whiskers found on the face.

The coat differences seen between breeds results from the ratio of primary to secondary hairs, as well as the texture of the individual hairs. Some breeds have an equal amount of guard hairs and undercoat, providing the water proofing and insulator effects needed for their original geographic location. Other breeds may have little undercoat, and their guard hairs will differ in length, such as Irish setters and beagles. Obviously, even within a breed there are coat variations, as seen in dachshunds which have smooth, wire-haired, and long-haired genes. Furthermore, in the long-haired lines, there are differences with the amount of undercoat present.

In order to fully understand how the sudden blown coat can occur, it is necessary to understand normal hair growth. The season and changing day lengths can influence this normal process, though with indoor dogs that influence is minimized. Outdoor dogs will usually have two fairly distinct sheds each year as they respond to environmental stimuli. Indoor dogs tend to shed at a continuous rate for the most part, unless some other factor triggers a more pronounced effect.

The life of a hair begins with the anagen stage, where the hair follicle is actively producing hair cells. This activity begins and continues in response to hormonal signals. Of the entire "life span" (hairs are dead material) of a hair, 80 to 90% of that time is in the anagen stage, actively growing from the hair follicle.

The next stage is called catagen, and occurs when new hair production ceases. This stage, too, is in response to signals, although in this case it is the sudden absence of the stimulatory signals that triggered the anagen, or growth, phase. This is a dormant stage for the hair follicle. The hair is not actively attached at the base of the follicle any more, but stays in the follicle due to friction. In this stage it is easily pulled out. These are called club hairs.

The last phase is a transitional stage called telogen. The follicle is reactivated out of the dormancy of catagen, and prepares for active production of hair in the anagen phase.

All of the hair follicles on a dog's body will be in any of these three stages concurrently. The amount of hair at any one time in the anagen phase (remember that 80 to 90% of the lifespan of a hair is spent in anagen phase), compared to catagen and telogen determines when shedding occurs, the length of the hair coat, and whether or not there is an undercoat present.

Poodles have the majority of their hair follicles in anagen stage consistently, meaning that their hair grows in length almost constantly. Therefore, their hair needs to be clipped routinely to control matting and remain aesthetically pleasing.

Alternatively, hairless breeds such as the Chinese Crested have the majority of their hair follicles in the telogen stage.

Other breeds fall in-between these two extremes.

There are many things that influence hair growth and shedding. These include genetics, nutrition, age, sex, the health status, the season of the year, and if it is an intact animal - where it is in the normal hormonal ebb and flow. Radiation and some drugs will affect rapidly dividing cells and usually stop hair growth. This is commonly seen in people experiencing hair loss during chemotherapy and radiation treatments for cancer. Normal radiation from taking diagnostic radiographs is not a cause of hair loss.

Some diseases can mimic a blown coat, such as endocrine imbalance involving the adrenal, pancreas or thyroid glands. Parasitic infestations, both internal and external, can have a profound affect on coat quality, but won't necessarily mimic a normal blown coat. An important consideration is the health of the skin in areas of hair loss. When a dog blows coat, the underlying skin is normal, healthy skin. With external parasites such as fleas, there will generally be evidence of skin reaction to the bites, and itchiness.

The sex of the animal definitely impacts the coat. Spayed and castrated dogs may have more pronounced undercoats, giving a cottony appearance. Excessive or absent sex hormones can cause changes in a normal coat. These are not considered to be "blown coats".

When a dog does blow coat, there is extensive hair loss, but the underlying skin is normal. Other names for this are telogen effluvium and telogen defluxion, referring to the resetting of the follicles to the telogen stage. The most common influence causing a dog to blow coat is reproductive cycle activity. Usually, it results from a pregnancy and birth, but it can occasionally occur after an estrous cycle. This can be confusing, because the hair loss doesn't happen at the same time as the causative event, but instead follows 1 to 3 months after. The hair follicles get simultaneous signals to reset to a telogen stage, so the hairs shed all at once, over a short period of time. The animal doesn't generally go entirely bald, and the areas with the most pronounced hair loss will be in the lumbar area, on the sides over the ribcage and on the flanks. The hair loss pattern is more or less symmetrical from side to side. The most important thing to remember is that the coat will regrow fully; it will just take 2 to 4 months to regain its full coat.

Sometimes extreme stress will trigger this sudden excessive shedding. Events such as surgery, or just general anesthesia, will stimulate the synchronization of the hair follicles to the telogen stage. This of course results in a blown coat. Just like the reproductive causes, it usually happens 1 to 3 months after the event, and a new coat will grow in within 2 to 4 months after shedding. Sudden severe illness and fever, or shock, can have the same affect.

A different situation that is sometimes confused with blowing coats is "after clipping alopecia". When this happens, the hair does not grow back immediately after having been clipped. The clipping may have been cosmetic grooming, or it may have been part of surgical preparation. In any event, there is no way to predict which animals may be affected. It is more common with breeds that have thick undercoats (Huskies, Chows, Shelties). The coat will eventually regrow, but it may take up to 24 months.

As you can imagine, there are a myriad of things that can cause hair loss, which may or may not have skin lesions associated. Veterinary consultation and diagnostics are necessary to fully identify the primary cause in most cases.

As we now know, with typical blown coats, all we need is time.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

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Reply with quote  #49 
Please tell me the chap in post 37 is not real, it is a fake photo.
As for coats, I like a nice short coat personally, much less trouble and a cleaner, more defined looking dog. 
With my two shepherds, one is solid black and his coat is not classed as long but it is certainly not short, when he goes outside in summer and comes back in he is so hot to touch, the heat he retains is unbelievable.  His brother is the shorter coated sable, his black areas are so much hotter to touch than his browner areas.  Both have that horrible shepherd undercoat, it is so thick and no matter how much you try stripping them out you just never seem to make a dent in it.  I groom them three to four times a week and I can never understand why they are not bald.  Mastiff coats are so much easier to maintain.  I thank God for Mr. Dyson and my furminator quite often.
We have dogs come into work and they will drop their coats with stress in the waiting room.  This happens frequently.
But I remember a woman bringing in two beautiful Himalayan cats, their coats were glorious, she wanted them shaved down to the skin, I asked her after why, (I did not admit them and would have refused), I could not understand why this had to be done, she told me that she wanted to keep them cooler in the hotter weather, I told her that the coat was insulation and now she would have to keep them inside as they would burn up in the summer sun.
We also had a Golden Retriever having chemo, he lost all of his undercoat, and another Shepherd needing Atopica has gone from short coat to approx 5 inches long over the shoulders now.  
Janine.
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #50 
Janine, #37 is a computerized enhancement.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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