| Posted 02/27/08 at 02:28 PM||Reply with quote #1 |
|Hello to everyone ,
Which follows can be or become of interest for fanciers who desire to get a dash of historical facts , follies and fallacies set in the admirable decorum of Britain' countryside or its capital , London , where the Old English Mastiff Club was founded in 1883 by a collective of friends with a common goal .
Thanks in advance for the practical work of moving the old stuff , Deborah .
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 03:22 PM||Reply with quote #2 |
Mr Edmund Gifford Oliver’ & his wife Tracey’ foundation pair of Hellingly , champions Joseph & Joy, was bred by Henry Young , ‘ Tweedview ’ , 31 Blakewell Road ~ Berwick , situated at the southern bank of the mouth of the river Tweed , and only twenty miles away from the Scottish border .
Henry Young bred three KCSB registered litters , strongly related to the Cleveland strain of the Cook family of Middlesbrough , hundred miles southwards , also situated on the East coast of England .
The first ‘Tweedview’ litter was sired by ch King Baldur , almost completely going back to the Cleveland stock , out of [Cleveland] Hecuba sired by ch Weland’ sire Adamite x Penwortham Fanny, the latter going back to the grandams , sisters ch Brompton Duchess & Ashenhurst Matron and to grandsires ch Lidgett Viscount & Ruthless Defender [ch Master Beowulf’ sire Survivor x Gyrlie unr] ; this ch King Baldur ex Hecuba litter contained a/o ch Wantley Joy & Havengore Prince Regent .
The second ‘Tweedview’ litter was sired by ch Menai Yosemite’ brother Wantley King Baldur [ch King Baldur x ‘¾ Cleveland’ ch Ashenhurst Bernicea] out of ch Cleveland Premier’ sis Tweedview Belle ; between their progeny were a/o ch 'Studland' Joseph & Goldhawk Fairy .
The last ‘Tweedview’ litter was sired by ch Cleveland Premier out of Wantley Bretwalda Maid [Wantley Bretwalda ~ch Ashenhurst Cedric ex Brunhilde ~ x Dollymount Shiela ~ ch Cleveland Premier’ brother Defender ex Penkhull Lady’ daughter Dervot Diana by ch King Baldur ~] . This litter gave a/o Hellingly Roger & Dervot Dantes , the latter being exported to the States .
Eighteen Hellingly litters were mentioned by the Kennel Club Stud Books ; eleven were bred from non-Hellingly parents, five from one Hellingly parent and only two from both Hellingly parents .
Seven KCSB Hellingly litters were sired by ch ‘Tweedview’ Joseph which resulted in four Hellingly champions , namely Josephine , Joy , Patricia and Antony .
Note I ~ from one Hellingly litter , containing a/o ch Ajax & Arethrusa , the sire was disputed , or ch Joseph or his cousin ch Arolite . Scrutinizing the progeny of both sires , one fairly can ‘guess’ it was rather ch Arolite because ch Joseph never produced anything else resembling at ch Hellingly Ajax , displaying a deep square head , accomplished by a definite amount of wrinkle on skull & cheeks , opposite ch Arolite whom sired a/o Satelite , showing similar head features and presumably the origin of them are backed by ch Arolite’ grandsire ch Ashenhurst Cedric . This interbellum stud pillar was out of ch Boadicea , a very typical brood showing a/o those marked cheek curtains , whom goes back to famous great-grandparents , ch Hazlemere Ronald’ daughter Berenice & ch British Monarch , both exported to Morris Kinney , of Kinnelon kennels , United States .
Other sires of KCSB Hellingly litters , all only once , were in chronological order ~
ch Duke , brother to Evans’ ch Prince [ Jersey Lion x Jersey Queen ] linebred to Penkhull Lady;
ch Cleveland Premier;
ch Arolite [ch Ashenhurst Cedric’ son Sadberge Duke x ch Cleveland Premier’ sis Sadberge Countess] and in that way cousin to ch Joseph;
Cleveland Julian [Wantley King Baldur x Langwith Boadicea ~ ch Ashenhurst Cedric x Ashenhurst Bernicea ~] whom sired ch’s Hellingly Cardinal & Marksman;
Hellingly Robert , sis to Hellingly Queen Bess [bred by Cleveland kennels ~ ch Cleveland Premier’ brother Chancellor x Princess Bunty ~ ch King Baldur x ch Master Beowulf’ sis Lady Kathleen ~] ;
Hellingly Brian [bred by Benton kennels ~ ch Joseph x Benton Elisabeth ~ ch Westcroft Blaise x Westcroft Shiela ~] ;
Hellingly Marksman [Cleveland Julian x ‘Cleveland’ Hellingly Queen Bess] whom sired ch Hellingly Mark ;
ch Hellingly Ajax [ch Arolite or ch Joseph x Formstone’ Lumbering Shiela] whom sired ch Hellingly Duchess;
Hellingly Duke [ch Hellingly Ajax x Hellingly King Baldur’ sis Berenice] ;
Hellingly King Baldur [ch Joseph x ‘Cleveland’ Hellingly Queen Bess] ;
Trelyon Dick [ch Joseph x ‘Tiddicar’ ch Hellingly Prudence , sis to Tiddicar ch ’s General & Diana] .
The Hellingly broods in chronological order were ~
ch Wantley Joy [bred by Henry Young] , two litters and one champion , Joy;
Hellingly Almost [bred by Bob Thomas of Menai] , one litter ;
Westcroft Flavia [by by Norman Haigh of Ashenhurst] , one litter , one champion , Josephine ;
Hellingly Hecuba , ch Wantley Joy’ daughter , one litter ;
Lumbering Shiela [bred by Formstone] , two litters , two champions , Ajax & Mark ;
Hellingly Queen Bess [bred by Herbert Cook of Cleveland] , two litters , two champions , Cardinal & Marksman;
Ch Hellingly Josephine , two litters , one champion , Patricia & Duchess ;
Hellingly Jessica , Flavia’ daughter , one litter ;
Hellingly Antonia [bred by Herbert Cook of Cleveland] , two litters , one champion , Antony ;
Hellingly Lady Rose [bred by Bob Thomas of Menai] , one litter ;
Hellingly Berenice , one litter ;
Hellingly Elaine [bred by Viscount Weymouth] , one litter ;
Hellingly Prudence [bred by Leonard Crook of Tiddicar] , one litter .
Globally spoken , one can state that the majority of Hellingly litters were bred from not home bred parents ; only four on eighteen Hellingly litters were out of home bred broods and only Hellingly home bred brood got champion progeny  , namely ch Josephine , grandaughter to ch Ashenhurst Cedric , ch Arolite’ grandsire . Regarding sires , one can consider the same matter ~ only four KCSB registered litters are sired by home bred studs and only two sired champion progeny  , ch Ajax and ch Marksman . Hellingly counted nine champions , but only one [ch Hellingly Duchess] was bred from home bred Hellingly parents .
The Hellingly strain was by far the most successful in the 1930ties , but one definitely cannot speak of specific long-term influence because most of their breedings weren’t built up through generations of home bred stock but rather the outcome of well considered [expensive] purchases of also adult stock , on the whole mainly going back to the Cleveland kennels of the Cook family , Middlesbrough , whom bred some forty KCSB litters between 1898 and 1931 , a/o nine champions , Felix b ’06 , Brompton Duke b ’10 , Brompton Duchess ’10 , Lightning b ’11 , Cleveland Premier b ‘25 , Cleveland Ponoroggo b ’29 , Broomcourt Comedienne b ’31 , Broomcourt Black Mask b ’31 , Cleveland Hugo ’31 .
The Cleveland kennels provided quality home bred studs also to other breeders as a/o Adamite whom sired ch Weland , Ashenhurst Duke whom sired the Ashenhurst ch’s Cedric & Bernicea and grandsired ch Havengore Bill , Adamas whom sired the Westcroft ch’s Blaise & Bulger , Sadberge Countess whom gave ch Arolite , Cleveland Premier whom sired ch Ileden Volo [out of the Hellingly home bred Honor !] , Queen Bess giving birth to ch Hellingly Cardinal & Marksman and Antonia producing ch Hellingly Antony . So besides the nine Cleveland home bred champions , they participated at the breeding of not less than ten other interbellum champions.
The Hellingly’s bred the same number of champions as the Clevelands , but in a much shorter period of only nine years and also their studs did a good job outside as ch Cardinal siring champions ‘Trelyon’ Beta & ‘Tiddicar’ Hellingly Prudence , Tiddicar General & - Diana and Cardinal’ brother ch Marksman siring ch Broomcourt Marcon while ch Ajax’ sis Arethrusa giving birth to three ‘Cleveland champions’ , Broomcourt Comedienne , Broomcourt Black Mask & Cleveland Hugo , and finally Hellingly Honor producing ch Volo of Ileden , or an ‘outside’ Hellingly participation of nine champions , one less than the Clevelands .
Everyone knows quality breeding should not only be measured upon numbers of champion titles , especially not in the States where the upcoming stars do not have to conquer the already made up champions , so quite a lot of ‘heavy’ challengers are already ‘hors concours' which made titling much easier than in the Mother Country . During the interbellum years , only fifty Mastiffs were made up in England or averagely only 2 or 3 pro year ; so a definite number of very nice specimens were never made up due to the hardy ‘open’ competition and the comparatively low numbers of yearly championship shows , averaging some eight pro year . But history learns also that those very nice non-champion specimens usually were bred on the same lines as those which are to find back in champion pedigrees .
Note II ~ Re numbers of litters , one needs to understand that a breeder can have bred more litters than those which are traceable within the Kennel Club Stud Books of the interbellum years , namely through specimens whom had won 1st, 2nd, or 3rd prizes in Limit , Mid-Limit or Open Classes at Championship level . In Mastiff Mems of Our Dogs , January 8 , 1932 , EG Oliver wrote ~ ‘ My wife has bred more than three hundred Mastiff puppies during the last five years ‘ while in that same period only ten litters were traceable within the KCSB or containing approximately 50 puppies against a totality of 300 . Mr Oliver further mentioned ~ ‘ Mr Herbert Cook tells me that his experience in the Cleveland kennels has extended over practically the whole of his life and that he has had personal supervision for about 24 years . During this period he says more than 1000 Mastiff puppies have been bred by his father and himself ‘ . Running this period of time , only 33 Cleveland litters were KCSB registered or containing some 160 puppies . These Hellingly - as well as Cleveland figures may suggest that only 1/6 part of the interbellum breeding practices ever got at the KCSB level in England .
Winding up ~In the history of the Mastiff , there’s always made a great fuss re Hellingly, while the Cleveland strain of the Cook family was rather neglected and hopefully with this article ‘some’ injustice is rectified , although only in a very limited order .
A great number of above mentioned names are well-known to the historical interested Mastiff fancy as their pictures are depicted by quite a number of canine books & - magazines or even breed specialised internet sites ; if there should be nevertheless some interest re a picture of a specific mentioned specimen , let know and see what I can do .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 03:27 PM||Reply with quote #3 |
|Thanks at all for the welcome . As already known , our rich breed history is quite fascinating and a wonderful source of joy & pleasure , ‘hunting’ after relevant insights re breed interpretations postulated by former breed stalwarts , pictures of less known specimens of historical value in order to get ‘some’ grip on the inevitable changes or call it ‘developments’ based merely upon contemporary fads .|
Arthur Croxton Smith , once Chairman of the Kennel Club , member of the OEMC and Mastiff judge at Championship show level , cultivated a special ‘fad’ for soundness in big dogs , and wrote many articles on this subject .
An excerpt of one of them , published in ‘Country Life’ 1947 ~ ‘The type has changed materially since the 1870s , when there were winning in the show ring dogs which had heads very similar to those of Great Danes with jaws of a normal shape . Then came the craze for short heads and , with it , efforts to increase the bulk . The general consequence was that many of the modern dogs are unsound , it being a problem to rear them with good straight bone and hind legs that are parallel with one another , instead of those the hocks of which turn inwards . Personaly I would rather see a somewhat smaller dog that was thoroughly sound and able to move freely . Unsoundness is a lamentable failing in other big breeds . The trouble is not so much in front , as we frequently see the forelegs with heavy bone and beautifully straight , while behind the dogs are more often than not cow-hocked which is a sad eyesore .’
It is obvious that AC Smith’ remarks are to be taken in general , as it is well-known that in those 1870s there was already a bunch of breeders whom fancied the counterpart of the Dane – or Boarhound type aka a/o Miss Hales’ champion Lion [vide MA Moore’ The Mastiff] .
It seems , IMO , that Edgar Hanbury’ ch Rajah , became the centre point of this ‘movement’ towards prominent massiveness ; one of his get , ch Wolsey , a magnificent brindle , displayed square bulkiness in head together with refinement in body & tail , i/e his underlining was definitely ‘tucked up’ towards the loin section while his tail was long , refined even so thin as shown by early famous dogs bred by Thomas HV Lukey of Morden , one of the breed godfathers of pedigree breeding practices . His foundation stud , Pluto , owned by the Marquis of Hertford , possessed quite similar features re body styling & tail characteristics [vide painting by George B Cole] .
The Stonehenge standard of 1866 , quite some time before the emergence of the Old English Mastiff Club  , mentioned ~ ‘tail fine , but with a very slight indication of roughness’ while the Mastiff Breeding Club standard  says ~ ‘Stern , many good breeders prefer a long one ; but I [MB Wynn] do not care for it to reach below the hock ‘.
It might be wrong , but IMO , there was in those early years of dog showing , a kind of duality re breed characteristics . On the one side a strive to obtain an impressive guard for the middle class homes , on the other side to behold the aristocratic ‘Pluto’ refinement , so appropriate to the breed’s former ‘habitat’ , namely the glamour of stately country houses .
During the Victorian era , London was considered by the Englishmen as the centre of the world , cfr a/o Greenwich Mean Time . Great Britain was the the height of its imperial powers , Victorian architecture was marked by flamboyance and exaggeration , cfr a/o St Pancras Railway Station , &c. In times when only ’the sky was the limit’ for the well-to-do part of society , also dog breeding & showing were influenced by this air of superiority which definitely had to reflect upon their fancy , in particular an innate dog breed of so-called great antiquity , which became characterised by a number of superlatives re [three-dimensional] sizes and guarding capacities , and that in times of burglary and other kinds of crime .
So it came , IMO , that the basic ‘guard’ original progressively changed from a rather commonly looking ‘big dog’ to an exponent of Victorian flamboyance , a striking , even deterrent , colossal brute with an outspoken forbidding mimicry , clearly opposite the air of ‘benevolence’ displayed by the then popular St Bernard breed .
Back to Hellingly . Mr EG Oliver came from a distinctive family , was well educated and very successful in his business affairs as senior partner in the firm of ‘Sutton , Ommaney & Oliver’ , solicitors of London , Paris and Berlin . The Olivers resided at Bedale Hall , Yorkshire , and were acquainted with the upper class of society , as a/o Count Hollender , Sir John Buchanan Jardine & Henry Frederick Thynne , Viscount Weymouth of Longleat House . Mrs Oliver was Secretary of the ‘exclusive’ Big Breeds Canine Society [formerly San Rocco Society] , amongst the members were Her Grace the Duchess of Newcastle , Colonel Reid Kerr , James Voase Rank of Ouborough , Mrs Vlasto , &c. , all prominent personages of the then dog fancy .
In that perspective , IMO , one has to place the breeding prospects of the Olivers , namely a quest in order to regain the former ‘magnitude’ of the breed , as a companion of elitarians , being of aristocratic descent or belonging to the new born classes of captains of industry , ‘upgraded middle class’ self-employees , &c .
The emphasis of the breed should be laid on ‘grandeur’ matching that elusive ‘refinement’ sought after by those wealthy and famous participants of society , a refinement not to confuse with a Greyhound but striving after that great antiquity of great heroism , exemplified by that famous bitch owned by the Sir Piers Legh of Lyme Hall , or by Lion [vide MA Moore’ The Mastiff] , that splendid Mastiff housed at Chatsworth , the home of the then 5th Duke of Devonshire , about whom was said ~ ‘ A man of few words who was happiest at home with his dogs , a habit that in the Devonshire house set earned him the nickname ‘canis ’ .
Steve is a passionate fancier , just as I am but in a different way and that’s fine because it can work complementary . Neither of us , IMO , wants consciously to press forward own ‘opinions’ , but as you certainly know , passion can ‘fog’ meanings . A/o = amongst others .
I firstly present some Cleveland Mastiffs bred by George Cook between 1906 and 1925 [next time those bred by his son Herbert].
Ch Felix , b ’06 – Nuneaton Lion x Marton Kitty , the latter also grandam to G Cook’ next champions ,
Ch Brompton Duke & sis – Duchess , b ’10 – Cleveland Leopold x Felica ,
Holloway Tiger , b ’17 – Survivor’ son Pegasus x Cleveland Leopold’ daughter Cleveland Belle ;
note – Survivor grandsired also ch Master Beowulf , ch Havengore Bill’ sire ,
Ashenhurst Duke , b ’17 – Adamite x Thunderbolt’ daughter Tilly Dunn ;
notes – Thunderbolt was brother to G Cook’ champion bitch Lightning – Cleveland Leopold x ch Felix’ daughter Coatham Daisy , not to forget – Duke sired the Ashenhurst ch’s Cedric & Bernicea ,
MacDuff , b ’21 – Adamite x ch Lidgett Viscount’ grandaughter Penwortham Fanny ;
note – MacDuff was uncle to the Hellingly foundation brood , ch (Wantley) Joy (see pic with her mistress) ,
Cleveland Chancellor , b ’22 (Mc Duff’ nephew) – Adamas x Vilna
note – Adamas sired also ch Westcroft Blaise and his brother ch Bulger,
Ch Cleveland Premier , b ’25 (Chancellor’ brother) ;
Note - his dam Vilna , b ‘ 20 , goes straight back in an uninterrupted way to one of G Cook’ early broods Marton Kitty (ch Felix’dam & ch’s Brompton Duke & - Duchess’ grandam) along Penwortham Fanny b ’16 , Beeches Sally b ’15 , Ashenhurst Matron b ’12 , Felica ’07 = Marton Kitty’ daughter .
Studying this Cleveland line up , one cannot speak of a recognisable kennel head type , but based on these few pictures , one can suggest that on a whole , without being overdone , most Clevelands show a more than averagely constructed framework , as also shown by Tweedview Belle , ch (Hellingly) Joseph’ dam whose picture follows a next time as also of Menai Markie as a youngster , Joseph’ uncle along the male line .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 03:46 PM||Reply with quote #4 |
|The Cleveland kennels belonged to the Cook family of Middlesbrough , George & his son Herbert . |
Middlesbrough , on the south bank of the Tees estuary , was a small fishing village of 40 people before a group of Quakers , including Joseph Pease and Joseph Gurney , associated with the Stockton & Darlington Railway , decided to turn it into a town in 1829 . John Vaughan and a German entrepreneur , F. W. Bolckow , opened an ironworks in Middlesbrough in 1840 . The discovery of workable ironstone in the nearby Eston Hills in 1851 helped their business expand . In 1879 the company became the first to make use of the new Bessemer steel-making method .
The Bolckow family resided at Marton Hall nr Middlesbrough . George Cook ‘ foundation brood was Marton Lady purchased from the Bolckows , KCSB unreg. , but according to Mr EG Oliver’ article in Our Dogs’ Mems , sired by WS Shearer Clark of Wishaw’ Duke of Fife [ch Prince of Wales’ grandson Captain Marryatt x ch Prince of Wales’ daughter Lady Florence ot of ch Crown Prince’ sis Queen Liberty] .
Mr EG Oliver wrote a/o the following in Mastiff Mems – Our Dogs , January 1932 – ‘ Mr Herbert `Cook , who knew Marton Lady well , imforms me that she was a perfectly good fawn , and that he has not the slightest doubt that she was a pue-bred Mastiff . she was a big bitch of a very light fawn colour , with a coat of a very fine quality . She was originally purchased by the Bolckows at a guard at Marton Hall , near Middlesbrough , but owing to her hunting proclivities she has to be sold , and wa purchased by George Cook as a guard . it was only later that he thought of using her for breeding .’
Maybe Marton Lady was sis to Robert Leadbetter fabulous ch Hazlemere Ronald’ dam Lady Winifred as Duke of Fife bred only one KCSB registered litter … .
George Cook’ first KCSB registered litter was out Marton Lady of sired by W. Price’ Duke of Cleveland [ Rev Van Doorne’ Lady Dorothy’ brother Alfgar x ch Ilford Chancellor’ daughter Lady Constance out of Captain Piddocke’ ch Toozie] .
Their daughter Marton Princess was mated to AJ Thorpe’ Blondin’ brother Prince Hampton [ch Mark Antony x Sir Stafford’ grandaughter Silverdale Lady Evelyn] owned by JH Lee , resulting in Beauty & ; later on she whelped a litter sired by ch Marksman’ brother Lord Stanley [ch Mark Antony x Lady Constable] , which contained a/o Ap Thomas , the future sire of ch Nuneaton Helga , bred by Huson .
A following Cleveland was Marton Kitty , KCSB unr. , who gave two litters sired by Nuneaton Lion [Invicta’ brother Mellnotte x Caractacus’ sis Nuneaton Molly ] , producing a/o Cleveland kennels’ 1st champion ch Felix , Dick & Betty ; Kitty whelped another litter , sired by Adam [Invicta’ son Black Prince x Lady Curly , unr. ] resulting in Felica , the future dam of the 2nd & 3rd Cleveland champions , namely Brompton Duke & Brompton Duchess [both sold] mated by Cleveland Leopold [Caractacus x Marton Princess , now in the ownership of William Price , who also bred Saints] .
Marton Peggy [ ch Mark Antony’ grandson Marton Fido x Floss , unr.] sired by Adam gave Shy Portia [2 cc’s ] , who on her turn , mated to ch Felix’ brother Dick whelped Galazora , the dam of champions The Scarlet Pimpernel , Young Mary Bull & John Bull [2 cc’s ] , bred by Mrs D Berry .
Peggy mated to Cleveland Leopold produced Belle , dam to Gascoigne Queen sired by W Joice’ Heatherville’ Duke [ch Felix x Oscott Shielah , linebred to Mellnotte ] ; Gascoigne Queen became the dam of ch Weland bred by F Jackson .
His Belle , mated to his ownbred Pegasus , produced a litter containing a/o Holloway Tiger , reserve cc winner at Crufts ’21 under Miss CM Garland , beaten by Collyhurst Squire’ Beeches Brunna , 3rd place for ch Master Beowulf’ brother ch Bricket Hood .
Coatham Daisy [ bred by Rylands out of ch Nuneaton Helga sired by ch Felix] mated to Cleveland Leopold produced Cleveland kennels 4th champion , Lightning , owned by George Cook himself , getting the certificates under Fred Gresham , Dr John Sidney Turner & WK Taunton . Her brother Thunderbolt mated to Marton Kitty’ grandaughter Jessie resulted in a/o Tilly Dunn , who , at her turn , whelped the Cleveland homebred [Ashenhurst] Duke & Duchess , sired by his Adamite , himself the result of a Cleveland litter out of Adam’s Last bred to Count Willington resulted in Adamite , the future sire of ch Weland ; so one can state that ch Weland’ parents were bred by George Cook what also can be said of ch King Baldur’ parents , ch Young Mary Bull & her brother Young John Bull …
Ashenhurst Duke bred by the Cleveland kennels of G Cook sired the illustrious Ashenhurst litter , a/o ch Cedric & ch Bernicea , Bob Thomas’ Menai foundation brood , bred by Norman Haigh out of ch Boadicea , daughter to ch The Scarlet Pimpernel whose both parents were also ‘Cleveland’ bred .
Another ‘Cleveland’ brood of George Cook was Penwortham Fanny , bred by GD Penny out of Beeches Sally [grandaughter to h Brompton Duke’ sis Matron], sired by ch Lidgett Viscount’ son Vereton Titus .
George Cook mated Fanny to his Adamite producing a/o Mac Duff , Vilna [ch Cleveland Premier’dam & his brother Chancellor] & Hecuba [EG Oliver’ Hellingly foundation brood ch Wantley Joy ] . Vilna mated to Cleveland homebred Adamas , resulted in Cleveland 5th champion Premier [ch Ileden Vol’ sire] ; his sisters were a/o Tweedview Belle [EG Oliver’ ch Hellingly Joseph’ dam ] & Sadberge Countess [ JG Joice’ ch Arolite’ dam] .
George Cook’ son Herbert bred his 1st KCSB litter in 1926 out of Collierley Duchess [ bred by Norman Haigh out ch Ashenhurst Cedric by Ashenhurst Duchess ] sired by ch Premier’ brindle brother Chancellor ; their daughter Yolanda came in the hands of the Olivers of Hellingly kennels and got a reserve ticket at Crystal Palace ’28 under ‘Our Dogs’ editor Theo Marples .
His following brood was Princess Bunty bred by Adams out of ch Master Beowulf’ sis Lady Kathleen sired by ch King Baldur with definite ‘Cleveland’ roots.
Princess Bunty mated to Chancellor produced Robert & Queen Bess [renamed as ~ of Hellingly] ; the latter mated to Terry’ Cleveland Julian produced Lady Antonia , ch Hellingly Anthony’ dam ; later on Queen Bess was sold to the Olivers ; they did the same mateing which gave ch H Cardinal & H Marksman .
While mateing Princess Bunty to Chancellor’ brother ch Premier , the result was a/o Canute [renamed as ~ of Hellingly ] and finally mated to ch Woden’ son Cleveland Comedian [bred by P Barritt] she whelped the 1st champion for Herbert Cook , namely Ponoroggo .
Seemingly encouraged by this outcome , Herbert Cook used Cleveland Comedian at stud on three other broods ; firstly on Queen Bess which gave Prince Boris [ Broomcourt Jem’ sire & Queen Bess purchased by EG Oliver] , secondly on ch Arolite’ sis Brenda resulting in Jolly Boy [renamed as ~ of Ileden & winner of reserve ticket under Dr Aubrey Ireland , beaten by ch Michael & ch Arolite’ son Satelite in 3rd place ] , and finally on [probably] another ch Arolite ‘ daughter & sis to ch Hellingly Ajax , namely Hellingly Arethrusa which was Herbert Cook’ last KCSB registered litter but also his best , containing a/o three champions , Comedienne , Black Mask & Hugo but also Tess , the future dam of ch Broomcourt Romeo and – Venus , his wonderful sis , exported to the States !
The Cleveland kennels were , IMO , of the greatest impact on Mastiff breeding during the interbellum era ; besides the nine ‘Cleveland’ homebred champions , some dozen champions were bred from ‘Cleveland’ parent stock [ sire and/or dam ] , so in first instance the Cleveland kennels delivered many quality specimens enabling others to produce their own champion stock , a feature unequalled by a lot of other first-class breeders of the day !
You’re right , and ‘The Animal Estate’ or the English and other creatures in the Victorian era , written by Harriet Ritvo , Harvard University Press - 1987 , is warmy recommended for each fancier who’s trying to discover the specific culture wherein the breed became developed towards an unique member of dogdom . An excerpt –
Lady Wentworth , being a baroness in her own right and the wife of an Earl , distinguished her from most serious fanciers of pedigreed dogs but also by the approach of the dog fancy displayed in her book ‘Toy dogs and Their ancestors’ in 1911 . She charged that the establishment assessing and certifying dogs was designed to enforce standards that had no basis in nature or aesthetics but reflected the ignorant , self-interested caprices of fanciers who wished to boost the prestige of their own stock . ‘Any breeder with even a smattering of Darwin would have agreed that art should follow nature in preferring the strong and beautiful to the weak and grotesque .’
Her criticism struck at the heart of the fanciers , focused as it was on a series of finely graded differentations which functioned both to establish the unique character of each breed and to assess the relative excellence of dogs of the same breed . Firmly grounded in the animals’ physical attributes , this elaborate system of categories exemplified metaphorically expressed the hopes and fears about issues like social status and the need for distinctions between classes .
Unlike Lytton , most late Victorian dog fanciers belonged to the urban business and professional classes . To many of them , the figurative dimension of the dog fancy may have been the more important ; it offered a vision of a stable , hierarchical society , where rank was secure and individual merit , rather than just inherited position , appreciated . The content of fancying categories thus became a by-product of the process of assigning ranks and orders , and one powerful criterion for the specification was whether it made this process easier .
Mrs Lytton claimed that ~ ‘the dog fancying establishment cherished the letter of tradition with their punctilous recording of pedigrees , while disregarding the spirit of tradition .’ and insinuated only aristocratic fanciers who strove to maintain old values and old stock , really belonged there .
This association of dog breeding with the social elite was one of the things that attracted the fanciers whose self-interested manipulations led to adopt an upper-class avocation as a way of reinforcing their own social position . The British had owned dogs from the beginning of recorded history , but the relation of most Victorian fanciers to their dogs , kept purely for companionship and amusement , was rather new , especially outside the highest social ranks .
Pets first appeared in the middle ages , as the playthings of courtiers and members of privileged religious orders . Although working dogs were ubiquitous in the Renaissance – they turned cooking spits , pulled carts , herded sheep , retrieved game , baited wild animals , and competed in sporting events – pet dogs remained the province of the upper class . When in 1808 Lord Byron buried his Newfoundland ‘Boatswain’ , many of his less distinguished countrymen shared his sense that a dog offered greater loyalty and affection than any human friend or servant or as Byron put it on the monument ~ ‘all the Virtues of Man without his Vices’ .
By the middle of the nineteenth century the Victorian cult of pets was firmly established. Punch frequently satirized the foolishness of dog lovers who fed their pets from the table , dressed them in elaborate outfits , and allowed them to inconvenience human members of the household .
An expanded market inspired a sudden stream of dog books beginning with Sydenham Edwards’ Cynographica Britannica [1800-05] reflecting both emotional & material concerns of genteel pet owners .
Whereas earlier dog literature seemed simply a specialised branch of natural history , the new books included not only description of the dog’ physical and moral characteristics , but a selection of heartwarming and enlightening anecdotes . In addition , like the animals they described , most were luxury items , suitable for conspicious display . The cherished animals themselves carried impressive price tags which increased as the dog fancy flourished .
Charles Rotherham , the veterinarian who attended Queen Victoria’ kennel , attributed an absolute rise in the canine population of London between 1865~1887 to the snowballing value of purebred dogs . Price was a sensitive indicator of differences among dogs ; pedigreed but undistinguished specimens of popular breeds could be had for about 3 guineas if there were of ‘pet quality’ and a minimum of £10 if ‘sufficiently perfect’ to win in the least competitive shows . Such carefully chronicled expenditure referred ultimately to the status of the owner rather than to the dog .
Elite patronage could boost the stock of a breed , as fanciers strove to identify their own tastes with those of their social superiors . Keeping a well-bred dog metonymically allied its owner with the upper ranges of society , then the elaborate structure of pedigree registration and show judging metaphorically equated owner with elite pet . The institution that defined the dog fancy projected an obsessively detailed vision of stratified order which sorted dogs and , by implication , people into snug and appropriate niches . The structures that evolved in the third quarter of the nineteenth century to regulate the breeding and showing of pedigreed dogs figurately expressed the desire of predominantly middle-class fanciers for a relatively prestigious and readily identifiable position within a stable hierarchical society .
Most of the institutions of the fancy had been borrowed from high stock breeding , and their conservative symbolism survived the translation . Yet the Kennel Club was not simply a scaled-down imitation of the Smithfield Club . While recognising the seductive charm of aristocracy , the Victorian fancy embodied a set of values that undermined the traditional social code that structured high stock breeding . The identification of elite animal with elite owner was not a confirmation but a way of redefining it . Thus a metaphor that signified stability of prize cattle signified change in the world of prize dogs .
Congrats , and be sure , someone who tries to do his best only deserves respect . And indeed I’m fostering a bunch of ‘antique’ keys but I rather don’t know yet if they shall fit the newly designed American locks , cfr Presbyterian ‘Mastiff Memories of the past’ and the Penny’ article ‘Fight between a lioness and a Mastiff’ .
Nice fellow-on-the-rock , enjoying Nature . Love that sloping topline , some way curious about his breeding backgrounds .
Included some first-hand tidbit about the ancestry of ch Hellingly Ajax and a head study of Ajax as a youngster . May this give some extra light on the trivial matter .
Although opinions inevitably shall differ , the (interbellum) dog coming straight to my mind re that train of thoughts is without doubt champion Michaël of the Cinque Ports , bred by Mrs Samuelson , being cousin to ch Hellingly Ajax (dams were sisters) sired Goldhawk Imperator bred by WK Taunton’ friend Fred Hawkings out of ch (Hellingly) Joseph’ sis Goldhawk Fairy sired by ch Ashenhurst Cedric , brother to Bernicea who produced a/o those stately female champions Beechwood Queen and sis Menai Yosemite , the latter grandam to ch Havengore Christopher . Michael’ head study was once chosen by Mr Douglas Oliff to ‘teach’ the German fancy about correct type after he judged their club show in the eighties .
Ch Michael got his cc’s under Wm Hunter-Johnston , an old OEMC stawart , at Crufts ; under Dr Aubrey Ireland , also a well—known OEMC member and finally made up under the famous soundness adept Mr Arthur Croxton Smith at the Crystal Palace Kennel Club Show , October 1932 , at the age of 2 ½ years . Michael was described by the canine gazettes as – ‘A big dog , good mover , eyes rather too close together ; another judge wanted him slight longer in back and somewhat broader in head while some other reports mentions good big skull and well broken-up face , extra good legs , ‘lengthy body’ and again a ‘good mover’ . The dog was also seemingly a favourite of the Dutch gentleman PMC Toepoel , who once judged at Crufts (not Mastiffs) and author of several splendid canine books , one of them featuring the attached picture .
About the Mastiff he wrote (translated) – ‘The Mastiff ~ The typical English watchdog and very ancient , as undoubtedly he was mentioned within the letters written by the Roman stadtholders . Maybe Phoenicians traders brought him to England in the 6th century BC . One is so inclined to imagine the Mastiff lying on the lawn before a large estate that it is difficult to consider him as a hunting dog . But the Assyrian bas reliefs , some 26 centuries ago , and the forestry laws of 1016 which prescribed that three claws of the forefoot of the Mastiff had to be removed , give us another view . Nevertheless I only understood this breed as a hunting breed after I have seen hunting Mr Rutgers’ Mastiff bitch – happily there was no rabbit outdoors . In the era of Queen Elisabeth , the Mastiff was used for fighting against bulls , bears and lions . During daytime he used to be chained up or muzzled . Amongst the past Mastiffs in this country [ed. note – The Netherlands] there were several rascals and one can understand what this means regarding such strongl dogs . Luckily the breed is otherwise mild tempered . Mastiffs & other related breeds with all their power & courage have for me something pitiful , bashful , which is touching and that makes that one loves them much .
They are , as the Englishman call , ‘a one man dog’, attached to one person in particular. They are yet more bourgeois than other breeds , making a roster of the day and the state of their properties and are very unhappy with any violation upon it . Totally different as my delicious Bohemienne of my Sealyham bitch , whom in a large gesture deemed the whole day and the whole world as her property and growled every dog away whom dared to lie on her mat .
His smooth coat, civilised temperament , fidelity , courage and strength makes the Mastiff an ideal dog for the country house were it not he slavered . The one does it more than the other and many only when seeing or smelling food . World War I has already damaged this breed and his recovery with the help of the Bullmastiff brought about a bad backhand , which hardly was recovered when World War II almost exterminated the breed .
Happily now both breed clubs in Great Britain work together and when the first two post-war Crufts had no Mastiff entries, the one of 1951 got five , and on the one of 1953 already 24 . One aims at level bites . The gait looked great .
Height and weight are quite rightly not taken down in the breed points . The taller the better , if the height is combined with mass , and the taller and heavier , if the dog is well upon his feet . Thin dogs and dogs on table-legs are worth nothing , the taller the former , the heavier the latter may be . 30 inches for 170 lbs are given as a good average by Robert Leighton in ‘The New Book of the Dog’ . But there exist taller and heavier ones , up to over 200 lbs , and Joe looked over the shoulders of my wife while he nevertheless stood sloopingly .
Besides the competition for height , the breeding on abnormally short muzzles has done much damage to the Mastiff . For that purpose he likely was crossed with the show Bulldog and this caused the definite undershotness, although admitted by the breed standard but never sufficiently so as to become visible when the mouth is closed .
The head needs to be square when viewed from any point and very broad , and should be in ratio to the length of the head and face as 2 to 3 . The skull flat , but wrinkled when the chap’s attention is excited . Brows slightly raised , muscles of the temples & masseter well developed . Strong stop . Muzzle short , broad under the eyes and keeping nearly parallel in width to the end of the nose , blunt and cut off square in profile , therefore the lips diverge at obtuse angles from the septum . Nose broad . Great depth from the point of nose to underjaw . The breed point require that the length of the muzzle should be in ratio to the length of the whole head as 1 to 3 , thus the muzzle 1 and the rest 2 . The main feature at the moment is , thanks to Mr Oliver , not the shortness of muzzle but – a time forgotten - the correct character in head .
One sees the new [old] head on page 110 [ed. note ~ head study of Miss Yanthe Bell’ ch Woden daughter Lady Here of Hellingly of Mrs Oliver ; at right Mrs Oliver’ Hellingly Cardinal also published in Toepoel’ Our Dogs] .
Small, thin ear, set on the highest points of the sides of the skull , so as to continue the outline across the skull. Small eyes , wide apart set on at least the space of two eyes, showing no haw. Circum-ference of the muzzle [measured midway the eyes & nose] to that of the head [measured before the ears] as 3 to 5 .
The Mastiff is a massive , powerful bloke standing broadly and strong on his legs . Feet large and round . The skeleton very heavy , mighty neck , only somewhat less in circumference than the skull before the ears . Broad chest well let down between the fore-legs , ribs arched and well rounded .
The circumference of the chest has to be 4/3 in ratio to the height at shoulder . Loins flat and very broad in a bitch , slightly arched in a dog .
Dense , close-lying coat , apricot , silver grey or brown brindled . In any way muzzle , ears and nose and ditto orbits and extending upwards between them.’
An excerpt from PMC Toepoel’ Bullmastiff’ chapter ~ ‘I never understood the fuss which , which also in this country , was made for the Bullmastiff breed as a working breed . A working breed needs to have good legs and this cross of Bulldog and Mastiff is understandably more badly than his big cousins . I consider his origin when the head of the Mastiff became shortened by this cross . He became recognised in 1924 and one of the famous specimens of the early years stood so cow-hocked that I became cross-eyed when I stared at him for a time . The first-class specimens are Mastiffs in a smaller version , but now the Mastiff has regained his old expression !
Re you next question , I understand you’re meaning a Hellingly home bred one , is quite more difficult to answer because , staying in line re overall linings , I prefer to look after a Hellingly bred ‘male’ , but unfortunately the one I dare to take as an example is only only pictured half-way , namely the brindle ch Hellingly Mark , out of ch Ajax’ dam sired by ch Hellingly Marksman (vide MA Moore’ book) , brother to ch – Cardinal , another fine specimen was Hellingly Damon (most probably) pictured as a well boned youngster somewhat lacking in break up , being out of Berenice (ch Joseph x ch Marksman’ dam Queen Bess) sired by ch Hellingly Duchess’ brother – Duke (ch Ajax x ch Joseph’ daughter ch Josephine) ; based on images of his ancestry , he definitely wasn’t still filled out . So he probably became a worthy guard of castle garniture .
Indeed the Oliver purchased high quality from a number of first class breeders , but scrutinizing their pedigrees one shall find that most of those trace back to specific lines , foremost to ch King Baldur and in lesser degree ch Ashenhurst Cedric , iow quite a number of Hellingly purchases were decently 'familiar' to each other , in that way and IMO , Hellingly did quite a lot of 'line breeding' by using carefully 'pedigree selected' stock of other kennels . One needs to know that Mr Oliver, the breed historian in those pre-computerised days , was outstanding re knowledge in pedigrees , having a/o very extensive database on alphabetical memo cards !
Hellingly breeding was a/o 'free' of Havengore or Miss Bell's strain based on ch. Woden, nevertheless they owned his daughter Lady Here , oozing a thrilling head piece but so far I know , never bred from .
A pity Hellingly came so soon to an end , a/o due to the passing of Mr EG Oliver , and I'm convinced that otherwise , they definitely should have been quite a 'match' within English post-war breeding. For sure.
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 03:52 PM||Reply with quote #5 |
Quite correct. This 'red colour' matter was one of the 'hot' themes throughout the canine magazines of the early 1930ties , Mr EG Oliver being of the leading men . As you know , he was rather a 'purity' knight and tried eagerly to trace sources in order to proof his claims re purity within his own Hellingly strain partly built upon the Cleveland strain . So one needs to place his 'inquiries' within this particular context .
The fact Herbert Cook himself , son of George who purchased Marton Lady , should have told him the 'story' , procured Mr EG Oliver some extra argumentation to 'clean' his noble Hellingly kennels from any insult re impurity .
A decent number of fanciers didn't believe his claim , so there was definitely , said euphemistically , quite some headwind , also because a/o Mr EG Oliver made a 'strong case' of Penkhull Lady , a brood linked to Bullmastiff blood , whom was running through the veins of Hellingly challengers , a/o the strains of Mrs Evans of Jersey island , Havengore & of Miss Bell , all members of the OEMC , while Mr EG Oliver has distantiated him from the old club and decided to found a 'counter' Mastiff gathering .
An eye for an eye !
Re Ajax/Joe , you're entitled to have your own opinion , I only try to bring elements into light , food for thought , nothing more and indeed I do respect your angle of view on the matter .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 03:57 PM||Reply with quote #6 |
Mr Edmund Gifford Oliver of Hellingly was also known for the ‘Norah Dickin’ court case and the well-known article about the OEMC history mentions the following -
Mrs Norah Dickin became the Club Honorary Secretary in 1932 and in 1936 in conjunction with the St. Bernard Club a small book called ‘The St. Bernard and Mastiff’ was published with the history of both breeds, Mrs Dickin wrote the Mastiff part .
Unfortunately, although all of the Mastiff history could be found by anybody with time for research , Mr Oliver took exception to what Mrs Dickin had written claiming that she was guilty of ‘literary larceny’ in copying from his article on Mastiffs as published in the Kennel Gazette, and although she was innocent of this offence Mr Oliver took her to court on the charge of plagiarism.
Unfortunately Mrs Dickin lost her case and the book was ordered to be withdrawn from publication. Mrs Dickin tendered her resignation as Club Secretary to the Committee of the O.E.M.C., but the Committee, convinced of her innocence, asked her to continue as Honorary Secretary to the Club, an office she held for 32 years retiring in 1964.
The part about the Mastiff numbered some 44 pages , illustrated with a number of interesting specimens ; it contained also a chapter ‘Who’s who in Mastiffs’ displaying short written portraits in alphabetical order .
Because it’s very rare and indeed of more than average interest , the numbered text about the Mastiff is attached ; most of the pictures (vide list below) are well-known to fanciers of breed history , therefore a selection of them - head studies of ch Broomcourt Romeo’ sire Broomcourt Jem & Broomcourt Hugette as a youngster , sired by Jem’ uncle ch Cleveland Hugo together with the only Victorian specimen , Blondin , sired by ch Mark Antony who sired also the top-class brindle champions owned by Robert Leadbetter of Hazlemere , Marksman (bred by Henry Wilkinson) and Marcella (bred by JS Hopkins) .
P 46 From the lion hunt , an Assyrian frieze in the British Museum taken from Assurbanipal’s Palace at Nineveh , data about 650 B.C.
P 49 Babylonian bas-relief in the British Museum , date about 220 B.C.
P 52 Ch Uther Penarvon , breeder & owner Miss Ianthe Bell
P 54 Ch Lady Turk , breeder & owner Miss Ianthe Bell
P 56 Challenge Cups , and Cups and Specials won outright by Miss Ianthe Bell’s Mastiffs
P 58 painting by Herring , date about 1865 , figuring a Mastiff and a pony
P 58 Ch Beaufort , bred by Dr Sidney Turner and ‘reputed to be the most perfect Mastiff of his day . Exported to America where he was unbeaten ‘ .
P62 A group of Goring Mastiffs of Mrs Dickin
P 65 Broomcourt Hugette (ch Cleveland Hugo x Snowflake) .
Note - Snowflake was by Hellingly Robert bred by H Cook (Cleveland Chancellor x Princess Bunty) out of ch Hellingly Joy’ sis Hellingly Janet (ch (Hellingly) Joseph x ch Wantley Joy .
P 67 Broomcourt Jem (Broomcourt Prince Boris ex ch Broomcourt Comedienne , both bred by the Cleveland kennels) .
P 69 ch Broomcourt Comedienne (Cleveland Comedian x ch Hellingly Ajax’ sis Arethrusa)
P 83 Blondin , b 28th April 1897 (ch Mark Antony x Silverdale Lady Evelyn) , bred by AJ Thorpe and owned by Luke Crabtree , later on by W. Shearer Clark , Esq.
Re interbellum schemes , I include some which I hastily could track down , but shall look after other ones or some analysis which I’ve made in the past.
Note – the numbers after each stud are counted as following 10 for siring a champion , 5 for grandsiring and 2,5 for great grandsiring . Quality is of course not measurable by those figures alone but along generations of breeding , this simplified method definitely can give some indication .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:00 PM||Reply with quote #7 |
Thanks for bringing it into attention . I’m having a bronze lookalike , length 9 i. breadth 4 i. (vide pic) , signed by the French artist Charles Valton and purchased in the early eigthies .
Maybe of some interest , there is or was a quite similar decorum in stone (vide pic) closeby the statue of Friedrich Wihelm II (1744-1797) , situated into the castle garden of Babelsberg near Potsdam , artist unknown .
Another one , a gilt-bronze or ormolu (vide pic) , is claimed to represent the regency art , bearing a studded collar and placed upon an original belgo nero marble , and is the favourite within my collection.
One of WK Taunton’ articles , published in the early XXth century , mentions - ‘The colour is sometimes deceptive and what appears to a novice as a brindle puppy turns out to be a very dark fawn which gradually gets lighter as the puppy grows . It has occurred that puppies bred from dark rich brindles have been whelped of a blue or slate colour . In course of time , the stripes of the brindle appear , but puppies of this colour , which are very rare , generally retain a blue mask and have light eyes .
Many such puppies have been destroyed ; but it this practice is a mistake ; for although it is not a colour to be desired , some of our best Mastiffs have been bred through dogs or bitches of this shade . As an instance, I may mention my own dog , Constable .
His grandam , Columbine , was a blue brindle . I parted with her as a puppy to a well-known breeder who afterwards offered her back to me on account of her colour . Knowing how she was bred , I readily accepted the offer . She was by Cardinal , out of Cleopatra by Cardinal out of Gwendolen by Green’ Monarch . Putting her to her sire , I obtained Empress of Tring , a capital brindle of good size .
Just at this time I wanted a cross-out and Dr Turner offered to let me have , at quite a nominal price , Hotspur , a son of Crown Prince and a dog for which he had refused 100 pounds as a puppy ( note – actually valued at ± x 70 ) . Mating Empress of Tring with him I got many good Mastiffs , one of the best being Constable, who made his debut at the Barn Elms’ Kennel Club show in 1887 , where he caused a sensation among Mastiff breeders .
Well , slate color stands for a dark bluish gray pattern . A canine example of a similar color , IMO , can be found within the Great Dane (blue) and the Neapolitan . There are sources within our breed history which mention the Boarhound , predecessor of the Great Dane , as having been played part within the early crosses of Mastiff breeding , so maybe , IMO , there’s some colored link in that very direction .
The definition of cool granite-grey is also used to describe color patterns of antique Oriental carpets , usually balanced by the warmth of camel , ivory , and terracotta outlinings .
The strongest Victorian brood line [vide specific scheme within Edwin Nichols’ article , part II] started off with the Duke of Devonshire’ Bendigo’ daughter Juno followed by Ansdell Leo’ Duchess ~ Sir Domville’ Oscar’ Venus [ch Hales Lion’ dam] ~ Nichols’ Quaker’ Brenda I ~ Field’ ch King’ Brenda ~ Lindoe’ Druid’ Druidess ~ Nichols’ Big Ben’ champion Lottie ~ Hanbury’ Prince’ Ida ~ Parkinson’ ch Colonel’ Negress ~ Hanbury’ ch Rajah’ Lady Rowena ~ ending with Woolmore’ ch Crown Prince’ Lady Isabel , dam to Dr JS Turner’ champion Beaufort , owned by WK Taunton . Ch Lady Isabel had 5 ch sisters/brother , Elaine, Rosalind , Lady Gladys , Orlando & Hotspur . The above strain presented also several interesting branches through Sir Domville’ Oscar’ Venus’ daughters Slut [ch Hodge’ Empress’ dam] & Hilda [ch Turk’ dam & Charles Mason’ ch Salisbury’ great-grandam ] .
The splendid Hanbury brood line passed also through an Ansdell’ Leo’ daughter , namely Empress ~ George’ Tiger’ ch Duchess [1st breed champion] ~ Lukey’ Governor’ Phoebe ~ ending with Pemberton’ Wolf’ Phillis who produced champions Queen , Rajah & Taurus .
Also worthful to mention is the input through the ‘Old Flora’ line , dam to champion The Countess , who was on her turn dam to the stud pillar ch The Emperor , belonging to the all times most influential stud line , namely ch Crown Prince ~ ch Orlando ~ Orlando II ~ Captain Piddocke’ ch Ogilvie .
Champion Turk’ daughter Nell , another interesting line up , through ~ Lukey’ Baron’ Grace [ch Nero’dam , f3 dam to ch Leo VII , f4 dam to ch Coombe Baroness] ~ ch Gwendolen ~ Stella [ch Ogilvie’ grandam & f4 dam to ch Constable] & Phoebe [ch Griselda’ dam & ch Carshalton Prince’ grandam] ; champion Turk’ Venus was grandam to Merlin [ch Crown Prince’ dam & f6 dam in line up to ch Elgiva] .
The ‘Warwick’ brood line ran along Baron’ Lena ~ ch Crown Prince’ ch Toozie ~ ch Jubilee Beauty [dam to ch Brampton Beauty , Tom Bowling’ sis , ch Ha Ha’ & ch Marcella’ grandam] , Lady Cobrey [ch Ilford County Member’ dam & Robert Leadbetter’ ch Marksman’ grandam ] & Lady Dudley [ch Plutarch’ dam & ch Holland Black Boy’ grandam] .
Coming to the after-Victorian era , the Hereward’ Sybil line is especially succesful through Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker’ strain of the Fox Hollies Hall which died out after he stopped breeding around World War I . Sybil’ grandaughter ch Ilford Chancellor’ Chocolate Girl became not only grandam to ch Peter Piper & and his unexcelled brother Leyton Jim but also to Joan , on her turn grandam to ch Marchioness & Paula [ch Countess Invicta’ dam , ch Lord Manor’ grandam & ch’s Charming Duchess , Britain’ Queen’ & Britain’ Belle’ great-grandam] .
The already scrutinized ‘Helen unr.’ brood line became somewhat ‘dormant until 14 generations further on f 14 Sparry Faithful Gillard’ Sparry Cleo became dam to Copenore Jason , the most influential stud after ch Crown Prince’ times . The line up is as follows ~ Helen ~ Stapleford Agrippa’ Penkhull Lady ~ ch King Baldur’ . Shirebrook Lady ~ Ashenhurst Duke’ Rookery Duchess ~ ch King Baldur’ Lady Clare ~ Comet Menai’ Wantley Fair Freya ~ f6 Hellingly Robert’ Cleveland Joy’ [other Helen’ f6 progeny were the three Tiddicar champions General, Diana & [Hellingly] Prudence] ~ Cleveland Comedian’ Deleval Joanne ~ Deleval Hereward’ Deleval Boadicea ~ ch Uther Penarvon’ Hortia ~ Brunwins Robin’ Coldblow Sally ~ Templecoombe Taurus’ Frithend Nydia ~ Valiant Diadem’ Baroness ~ Heatherbelle Sterling Silver’ Melita Salome ~ Sparry Faithful Gillard’ Sparry Cleo.
Interesting note is that Robert Leadbetter’ grand champion Hazlemere Ronald’ brood line stopped with his grandam Lady Argyll unr. while in 1887 the ‘grocer in spirits’ William Shearer Clark of Wishaw bred a ‘Duke Argyle’ sired by Edinburgh Duke out of Victoria Regina , also bred by WS Clark [out of ch Crown Prince’ sis Queen Liberty sired by ch Crown Prince’ nephew ch Prince of Wales].
This scheme clearly shows that A R Fish’ Penwortham Fanny bred in August 1915 by G D Penny was behind first-class show winners ; she was sired by Vereton Sir Titus [Brookes’ ch Lidgett Viscount x ch Brompton Duchess] , a stud without show successes due to the break out of World War I .
Penwortham Fanny , a challenge winner at Manchester Manchester June 1916 , only ten months old & a reserve certificate under the renowned Mastiff breeder AW Lucas , beaten by ch Miss Bull , was according to some old ‘Our dogs – Mems’ report been able to easy get her champion title if war wasn’t broken out !
Between the remaining brood lines was a/o the ‘Floss unr.’ line started off along her daughter George Cook’ Marton Peggy by Marton Fido , great- grandam to champions Weland , Young Mary Bull & The Scarlet Pimpernel & f4 dam to ch King Baldur.
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:05 PM||Reply with quote #8 |
Re ‘the American Mastiff Club 1886’.
Norman Howard Carp-Gordon mentions in chapter V of ‘The Making of the Modern Mastiff’ – ‘The American Mastiff club , founded in 1879 (sic) , had died ; its records and challenge cups disappeared .’ Further on he goes on saying – ‘but after ‘only a few years’ of existance (sic) , the original ‘Mastiff club of America’ vanished without a trace . Vide also attachment from ‘The History & Management of the Mastiff’ which mentioned approx. 1888 as the year of founding .
In Carp-Gordon’ case it should have been only three years after the Westminster Kennel Club was founded ; the WKC presented the ‘first annual New York bench show of dogs’ in Gilmore’ Gardens (the Hippodrome) , Madison Avenue , on May 8th , 9th & 10th , 1877 . The worldwide known St Bernard breeder , English Reverend John Cumming Macdona judged the twenty five entered Mastiffs and prizes went to Vandal & Norma .
Harper’ Weekly reported about the WKC bench of 1884 a/o – ‘ There were almost half a hundred Mastiffs , many of them majestic-looking brutes , with fawn colored coats handsomely marked with black ‘ . Between the winners were ‘Jumbo , bad in ears and not good in condition , & Ponto’ .
Count Henri de Bylandt’ Les Races de Chiens’ mentioned the American Mastiff Club under the Presidency of Robert Lenox Belknap and Secretary by Herbert Mead , Lake Waccabuc , New York .
The New York Times , 14th March 1896 mentions a/o - Robert Lenox Belknap, who was for many years prominent in the business life of this city, died last night, at his home, 5 Gramercy Park. He was born in this city on July 23, 1848. Mr. Belknap's father, Aaron B. Belknap, was a lawyer, and was for many years an Elder in the First Presbyterian Church of New-York. His mother, Jennet Lenox Maitland, was the daughter of Robert Maitland and the granddaughter of Robert Lenox. . Robert Lenox Belknap was graduated at Columbia College in ISG J. He then entered the employment of Messrs. Fuller, Lord & Co., merchants and manufacturers, at Greenwich and Cedar Streets.
He became Vice President in 1873 of the Mercantile Loan and Warehouse Company, and in 1879 he was elected Treasurer of the Northern Pacific Railroad Company, which was then commencing the work of construction where it had been interrupted by the failure of Jay Cooke & Co. He remained with the road until 1888, taking an active part in the completion of this great artery of commerce. Mr'. Belknap took a. leading part in the formation of the Land and River Improvement Company, which, in 18S3, laid out the present city of West Superior , and he was the first President of that company. Mr. Belknap became a member in I860 of the Seventh Regiment, National Guard State of New-York. He became Commissioner of Subsistence, with the rank of Captain, on the staff of Gen. William G. Ward, commanding the First Brigade, in 1873. He became Lieutenant. Colonel, and Chief of Staff in- 1870, and continued in that position until 1880. when he resigned. Mr. Belknap devoted much of his time to charitable and philanthropic work. He became a manager of the Presbyterian Hospital in 1877, and was its Treasurer from 1880 to 1882. He had been a manager of the American Bible Society since 1879, President of the Board of Trustees of the Presbyterian church, on University Place , and Superintendent of the Sabbath school of that church since 1880.
He was also a Trustee of the Theological Seminary at Princeton, a manager of the Society of the Lying-in Hospital of the City of New-York since 1881, and its Treasurer since 1892 and a member of the New-York Sabbath Committee since 1887. He was for several years one of the Vice Presidents of the Presbyterian Social Union of NewYork City.
Mr. Belknap was married in 1870 to Mary Phoenix Remsen, daughter of the late Henry Rutgers Remsen. His city home was at Gramercy Park and his country home at Huntington. He was a member of the Union League, University, Downtown, New-York Yacht, Sewanhaka Yacht, St. Andrew's Society, and Upsilon Clubs of New-York and of the Minnesota Club of St. Paul, Minn. He was a hereditary member of the Society of the Cincinnati and of 'the Society of Colonial Wars, and a member of the New-York Society of the Sons of the Revolution.
Mr. Belknap was Secretary of the Niagara Falls Association, which was instrumental in securing to the State of New-York the ownership of the land on the American side contiguous to the Falls, thus preserving them intact from, commercial encroachment.
For a number of years he had. been associated in business with William P. STEVENSON at William Street, and he was also President of the Northern Trust Company of West Superior , a Director of the Land and River Improvement Company, and Chairman of its Executive Committee, and a Trustee of the Real Estate Trust Company of New-York City. He was one of the honorary associate editors of The American Historical Register, and took a great interest in the various patriotic societies of which he was a member.
Maybe this Robert Lenox Belknap was also the President of the American Mastiff Club while his business associate associate William P Stevenson was the one who imported ch Crown Prince’ son Cato and Queen II (ch The Emperor x ch Wolsey’ dam Mr Edgar Hanbury’ ch Queen ?
And maybe was the son of the American Mastiff Club former Secretary , Dr Richard H Derby married to former US President Theodore Roosevelt’ daughter Ethel , as he also was named Dr Richard H Derby ? Could you give relief on these matters ?
Shield’ book ‘The American book of the Dog’ (1891) mentions a/o – ‘ R L Belknap and Gen. S L M Barlow , also imported several Mastiffs some fifteen or twenty years since ; but the pedigrees of such of Mr. Belknap’ as far I have seen are unsatisfactory , while those of General Barlow’ Ruth and others are clear and correct .
By the way , do you have a copy of an article (20 pp) written by Col. Hobart Titus of Manthorne kennels and called ‘ The English Mastiff , war dog of the ancients , watch dog of the ages ‘ , 1935 , published by the author , 63 Lombard Street , Newton 58 , Mass. ?
Included also pic.s of Homer and of ch (Hellingly) Joseph , a Kennel Gazette article , a report about the OEMC meetin 1890 attended by Dr Richard H Derby and his son described as 'Master Derby' , a description of the Babylonian bas-relief by MB Wynn , &c .
Most of this information is most probably already known by you , but just in case there should be something fresh in it !
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:12 PM||Reply with quote #9 |
Thanks for your contribution . In connection some with my former post some ‘wider’ explanation .
Genetics in the XIXth century .
During the Victorian period , it was widely believed that ‘biology is destiny’ and virtual all characteristics are inherited . How heredity actually works was a considerable mystery . Most characteristics seemed to be average of those of their parents , so-called ‘blended’ and perhaps ‘regressed towards the mean’ of the population as a whole . This seemed to imply that unless there were careful restrictions on choices of mates , the population would eventually become more and more average in his characteristics as par example size & proportions .
Domestic animals and pedigree dogs were bred based on selective breeding practices regarding particular aims, but their breeders didn’t possess the knowledge of the Mendelian basic laws of heredity .
It was only at the end of the era that a/o Dr Sidney Turner became aware of their possibilities concerning pedigree dog breeding . PMC Toepoel , The Netherlands’ most prominent cynologue, mentioned Dr Turner freely in his testamentary book ‘Our dogs ‘ in order to quote the theory of Mendel which states that dominant & recessive genes determine the outlook of a specimen .
When both are present , the dominant gene fixes the characteristic on its own while the recessive gene , although present , remains invisible . By absence of the dominant gene, the famous reliability of the recessive genes gives pure bred features in the Mastiff breeding process , as par example two fawn parents can only produce fawn progeny .
Looking at ‘Mother Nature’ , species as a/o the wolf are the result of long-termed inbreeding because it are the strongest males who mate the majority of bitches within the herd . Inbreeding brings about, sooner or later , the appearance of the recessive genes which become fixed during the course of the following generations . In that view it is obvious to understand that recessive genes adjoin closely to ‘Nature’ ; wild coloured , golden to yellow eyed , long haired , hardish coated , long legged and long tailed , features belonging to a/o canis lupus , weighing up to 170 lb.
The Mastiff breed stands far away ‘Nature’ , thus the breeding is strongly dependent of the presence of a great number of dominant genes , as par example the ‘short haired’ & ‘black mask’ genes , which are not ‘true’ in passing on to progeny . Deducing from the above mentioned genetic procedures , one could state that it becomes more difficult to breed as ‘pure bred’, those breeds which are more remote from the natural ‘wolf ’ form .
In a great number of cases , a fault becomes eventually corrected by mating with a specimen which is faultless in that respect due to the basis law of Mendel which states that hereditary factors do not combine but are passed intact , each member of the parental generation transmits only half of its hereditary factors to each offspring with certain factors ‘dominant’ over others ; different offspring of the same parents receive different sets of hereditary factors .
Gregor Mendel’ work was impeccable , as far as it went , but some inheritance patterns did not match the expectations proposed by Mendel’s principles as a/o single gene variations whereby dominant genes lack dominance , fail to completely mask the recessive allele or both alleles are equally expressed in the heterozygote specimens .
When there is no real dominant allele , the heterozygote will have a phenotype , different from either homozygous form .
This is sometimes referred to as an intermediate phenotype . In this case one could correct a fault by crossing with a specimen showing the opposite fault in order to beget the mentioned intermediate form . Inbreeding is an accelerated way of making a breed ‘pure bred’ ; degeneration related to inbreeding is nothing else than undesired recessive genes , at first invisible , becoming fixed as ‘pure bred’, so as par example light eyed specimens . This usually appears when one overestimates the importance of some breed features and neglects the rest of characteristics .
Regarding eye colour , there exists a ‘yellow overlay gene’ which , when combined with the basic pigment gene , alters light brown to hazel , the tone aimed at by the original OEMC breed standard of 1883 , drawn up by Reverend WJ Mellor , Walter K Taunton & Dr J Sidney Turner .
It is of extremely interest to combine within a further mateing the undesired recessive gene with the respective dominant gene . A practical example of another undesired recessive gene was the ‘Dudley’ front of Crown Prince (liver coloured markings) , but when matched with an appropriate bitch he got also correctly marked offspring as a/o champion Orlando , bred by Dr J. Sidney Turner of Upper Norwood , London .
Original ‘Wolf’ and ‘Mastiff’ types were already very distinct in the early ages of civilisation . In this matter there’s a passage of Malcolm B. Wynn’ The History of the Mastiff which detailed a Babylonian bas-relief of 2200 B.C. , a very informative piece of ancient Middle East sculpture .
‘Assyrian dogs showing the ‘ hunting tribe ‘ of the Molossian race from the walls of Assurbanibal ’ palace of Nineveh , 668-662 B.C. , within the land of Tigris & Euphrates ( 220 miles north of Baghdad presently in Iraq) , being now in the property of the British Museum .
The Babylonian bas-relief shows probably the ‘ fighting tribe ‘ of the Molossian race but also standard guard for the houses of the reigning families & court officials ~ founf in the land of Tigris & Euphrates , 60 miles south of Baghdad 2200 B.C. , British Museum .
Sir Henry Rawlinson , the one who discovered this Babylonian bas-relief , succeeded between 1835 and 1839 in copying most of the great Behistun inscription which was set up by Darius the Great of Persia about 550 B.C. . Later on Sir Rawlinson became world-wide known for his decipherment of this ancient cuneiform containing the same three scripts which also appeared on several other Persian artefacts .
Sir Henry Rawlinson [Chadlington , Oxfordshire 1810-1895] was an Orientalist and after his service with the army of the East India Co. , he became consul general at Baghdad . Between 1849 and 1851 , he had given his collection of antiquities to the British Museum . He wrote a/o ‘ The Five Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World ‘ , London 1879 and together with several Assyriologists he examined the excaved ruins at the ancient religious centre , Birs Nimrud [Borsippa] or ‘the second Babylon’, 12 miles south of Babylon and nearby the Euphrates River .
Sir Rawlinson found that the tower consisted of seven stages of brick-work , each stage of a different colour , which shows that the temple was devoted to the seven planets . It is believed by Orientalists to be the site of the Tower of Babel . Even with its three higher stages or floors in ruins , it still rises 154 feet above the level of the plain . This planet-tower was dedicated to Nebo , god of Wisdom , and wherein also Baäl , the god of sun , was worshipped by a/o astrologers .
The Tower of Babel drawn by O. Schultz from the model constructed by Sir Henry Rawlinson . According to the Old Testament the building was erected on the plain of Shinar in Babylonia by descendants of Noah .
Already in those times dogs have been associated with the powerful . The everyday life of rural Assyria was disrupted by lions killing livestock and farmers alike , gazelles and wild asses eating crops and trampling fields .
The king’s performance as first huntsman symbolised both his bravery and his care for his subjects’ welfare . Not only did he hunt , he had to be seen to do so . Whether recorded in bas-relief or staged in huge arenas, Assurbanibal’s hunts were lessons for the Assyrians in the king’s power and magnificence .
These events required large numbers of Mastiff-like dogs . For royal families , especially in times of turmoil and intrigue , dogs have always been valuable for their symbolic role as ideal subjects , always obedient and loyal , as well as for their guarding ability and companionship. Their devoted behaviour towards their masters have been a pointed reminder to courtiers.
Concerning the heredity of temperament , much is assumed but less is proved . Even in case of nervousness is not caused by inheritance , it remains of utmost importance to breed from a correctly tempered bitch because her behaviour during the gestation and first weeks after the whelping can induce similar emotional habits regarding her progeny ; in this respect it seems that eventual shyness of a ‘foreign’ sire cannot harm in that same order .
If Sir Henry Rawlinson was related to Mrs Rawlinson of Ulverston ’ Graythwaite Old Hall , the breeder of Stanley and champion The Emperor , Crown Prince’ probably sire , is unknown .
Around 1200 BC , the Phoenicians advanced from Cyprus , toward the west and established colonies in Sicily , Spain , France and England . In a fascinating and sharp-witted treatise , Tschudy proposed the theory that the descendants of the old Assyrian dogs existed along the old commercial roads of the Phoenicians . Tschudy suggested that the Assyrian dogs , brought to Europe by the Phoenicians , were the ancestors of a/o the Mastiff in England .
Many known Greek & Roman illustrations show the Molossian as a large , well muscled dog with erect ears, a lean head and a ‘ mane ’ . The characteristic curled tail and darker color of the Assyrian dogs is never pictured or described by either the Greeks or the Romans . An example is the ‘Dog of Alcibiades’ , British Museum , displaying ‘lion-like manes’ round his neck , an artistic freedom or did there exist such antique kind of dogs as also the Babylonian bas-relief shows similar pattern of manes in the same area . And even when you look at Sir Edwin Landseer' painting of an Alpine Mastiff , one can discover 'some supplementary roughness' around neck & shoulders .
Re the ‘curtain matter’ , IMO, when ‘not overdone’ by a singular cheek fold , it somewhat enhances the idea of squareness which of course in first instance has to come from correct skull outlinings and quality of temporal & masseter muscle tone ; it’s quite true the OEMC standard only mentions about the wrinkling on the forehead , without any description of folding on cheeks .
But , IMO , it’s quite clear that the continuation of the lowest wrinkle (upon the eyebrow) down under to a rather ‘thick’ singular cheek fold enhances the finishing touch of a beau tout-emsemble . IMO , on the one side ‘wrinkle upon the forehead’ & on the other side , a limited amount of throatiness cannot be well balanced by a complete ‘dry’ cheek , but again said - in proportio to the common idea re forehead , ‘wrinkled when attention is excited’ , thereby knowing that a particular situation of excitement doesn’t change much the folding on the cheeks , and also taking into consideration that the mouth remains closed for reason of comparison .
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:19 PM||Reply with quote #10 |
Scrutinizing former somewhile passionated posts , an anthology of quotes re the roots of the OEMC standard .
‘ The English set out to create a breed standard based on information and the old carvings of these ancient progenators. ‘
‘ Wynn felt that the mastiff was indigenous to Britain ! I don't believe that Wynn set out to base his findings and standard on the antiquities ! His views on the standard were based on more ‘up front’ perceptions of type , based on related British stock ! ‘
‘ Thinking of Victorians who would have seen these magnificent relics I can only imagine that they would have wanted to make claim to certain type characteristics .
‘ English are a peculiar breed themselves wanting a whole lot in their giants - Majestic, Formidable, Dignified, Benevolent, Aristocratic, Gentle, Courageous...... And everything needs to balance out to achieve the goal(s). ‘
‘ Excessive leads to grotesque ‘ .
‘ Let's all hold hands and walk into the fire ! It doesn't matter what history states, nor does it matter what Barnaby Goog bred , nor why ! I suppose one view is as good as the next ! Perfume aside ! ‘
‘ This statue is History and it is speaking to us. Look at those shoulders, depth and bone just for starters . Many may have claimed to have a massive dog but when faced with a really massive dog they may not see their dog as very massive after all . ‘ NOTE – Can one access the real size of the breed depicted by this statue ? Was it Mastiff – or Bulldog sized , or somewhere in between ?
‘ Perhaps Britain laid claim to the Mastiff because it was a War dog , and so were they. ‘
Some considerations –
A number of posts lay on an obvious connection between Britain’ overall popular character and its breed , the Mastiff which seems , IMO , to give a clue re the emergence of the OEMC Mastiff standard , not solely laid down by a club of single elitarians but carried by Britain’ soul during the Victorian era characterised by , again the same wording , flamboyance or call it an expression of ‘rococco’ , screaming out the splendor of the British Empire , the then one and only World Power before the ‘Yanks’ took over the lead . British people were unawarely brainwashed by that ‘constellation’ , cfr Britannia , rule the waves , Union Jack , first World exhibition at Crystal Palace , first railway in the world , first dog shows , &c . So , IMO , the Mastiff breed and its standard is only an extrapolation , a metaphor of the Victorians’ superiority .
An attempt re an historical overview of the making of the OEMC standard during the Victorian era –
It was along Hyde Park’ Serpentine that Mr Lukey met the Marquis of Hertford’s magnificent black Mastiff Pluto whom was probably also well-known amidst gentry lounging along Park.
‘Mr Lukey told me in 1851 the Marquis of Hertford’Pluto was black and was the largest and best Mastiff in all points he ever saw . I believed I am justified in saying that Mr Lukey was indebted in a great measure to this dog in producing his fine breed .
However we may gather he was a dog of vast size , hardish coat , and with a tendency to throw roughish progeny , resembling the Newfoundland somewhat in character.’ dixit James Wigglesworth Thompson of Halifax , the great early Yorkshire breeder favoured by Malcolm B Wynn .
One decade later dog shows emerged and they rapidly made clearly the necessity of breed standards written by Dr John Henry Walsh mentioning also that ‘ if we take Mr Lukey’ breed as the foundation of most of our strains , it is indisputable that the brindle is a true Mastiff colour‘.
Cynological authorities , in case of the Mastiff, it were firstly Stonehenge [rather adherent of the Lukey’ strain] and later on Malcolm B Wynn .
Stonehenge [aka John Henry Walsh 1810-1888] of Putney near Mortlake , London ~ Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons , was an ophthalmic surgeon but gradually abandoned it on account of the success of his many works on the subject of sport .
December 1857 he became editor of ‘The Field’ magazine founded in 1853 by a/o R.S. Surtees who envisaged ‘a sporting, a farming , and a sort of high-life-in-London paper with a summary of all that is going on’. Walsh not merely transformed a loss-maker into a profitable business but established The Field as indisputably the sportsman's newspaper .
Stonehenge was one of the judges on the first dog show , held in the ‘ New Corn Exchange ‘ Newcastle-upon-Tyne , the 29th & 30th June 1859 [Newcastle Race Week], confined to Pointers and Setters ; 23 entries for Pointers and 37 for Setters , many being from distant parts of the kingdom .
Besides JH Walsh it were Mr J. Jobling of Morpeth and Mr Thomas Robson of Newcastle appointed as judges . The show was organised by Richard Brailsford , b. 1796 at Knowsley , breeder & trainer of to Edward Stanley , 13th Earl of Derby of Knowsley Hall , Prescot Lancashire , prominent zoologist , creator of the country's largest menagerie outside London Zoo and correspondent with the woamous naturalist Charles Darwin .
Dr Walsh wrote & published the first breed standards as an aid in judging and a goal for breeders . While privately written , theirs merits were quickly recognised and many eventually were adopted by the Kennel Club as official standards until later improved or revised .
His Points of the Mastiff  were given a/o as following ~ ‘red or fawn , brindles and blacks , or fawn-and-white , the eye small , the tail carried high over the back when excited’ ~ b. 1855 chosen as illustration [see former page] .
His points  mention a/o ~ ears small and wholly pendant , lying close to the cheek [though set on farther back than in the hound] , eyes mild & intelligent , square muzzle , not too tapering towards the point of the nose ; teeth level sometimes a slight projection of the lower , legs straight , with great bone [this point is not generally well displayed , owing to confinement [small sized kennelled or chained] , as is also the case with all large breeds] ~ Lukey’ Governor , born 1861 , [see below] chosen as illustration drawn by L. Wells [dito Wallace] & engraved by Butterworth & Heath .
Although Governor wasn’t a great winner , his exceptional height [33 inches] portended a fad for great size until the early 1870ties and generated winners , particularly originating from Edwin Nichols’ stock which goes back to Lyme Hall Leo owned by the influencial artist Richard Ansdell , a/o Hales’ Lion , Aglionby’ Turk & Nichols’ Punch ; another winner of definite height was Green’ Monarch , a great grandson Lyme Hall Sultan .
It seemed that in those days Lyme Hall blood was almost unanimously considered as ‘breeders’ gold’ until the appearance on the show bench of MB Wynn  who rather relatives its value ; by investigating the matter it wasn’t so obvious that Lyme Hall provided that antique pure bred strain of high quality specimens but rather found itself in decline [maybe due to isolement or shortage of knowledge] .
Opposite , a range of dedicated first class Mastiff breeders as TH Lukey , E. Hanbury , E. Nichols , Miss Aglionby & MB Wynn [albeit deviating visions] worked fruitfully together . In 1867 Stonehenge suggested that ‘ the Mastiff was being crossed with Bloodhounds , heads becoming narrow, eyes sunken and the haw exaggerated ; the Bulldog was used in order to get a shorter face , for the Mastiff head then was a longer head than was desired ’.
In this respect , it’s interesting to know that in 1875 Reverend WJ Mellor’ Mastiff , the world-wide known champion and ancestor of many fine specimens , namely Turk bred by Miss Aglionby [born 1867] , came into the hands of the internationally known Bloodhound breeder Edwin Brough [ born1844 ~ Southfield House , Somerset ] .
Champion Turk died in his kennels at Ballhaye Park , Leek [Staffordshire] , a town of great character situated on the edge of the Peak District surrounded by splendid countryside . He also owned Turk’ daughter Thekla & Una , a bitch out of MB Wynn’ Formosa .
The Summer Show at The Ranelagh Club’ report by the Kennel Gazette mentions the problems of the early dog shows ~
‘ It was still much more frequently seen that the most wretched apologies of a breed were entered that might have puzzled the judges to decide upon the sorts to which they did belong and at the same time there were some famous specimens of many of the principal breeds that were picked out to serve as landmarks of the future but too much veneration cannot be felt for these old heroes of the past , and for the good men who selected them , as these were the earliest lessons in teaching the public all the necessary distinctions of type and characteristics as a/o the Mastiff Rajah , the Gordon Kent , the pointer Bounce cum multis aliis , stood out more by themselves at the time , but their positions were of greater importance than those of more modern show winners , as they were looked to as the types of the future for people to breed up to ‘ .
In 1873 the twenty-one years old M.B. Wynn made a description adopted by ‘The Mastiff Breeding Club’ as the standard of points in Breeding Mastiffs . While Walsh displayed an allround knowledge concerning the breed , MB Wynn can be regarded as the breed student par excellence , learned by a/o the distinguished breeders TH Lukey & Edgar Hanbury whose Rajah could have played model for MB Wynn’ first standard , nevertheless illustrated by Wynn’ Peeress’ . Striking new or deviating features are a/o ~ ‘head broad between the eyes , muzzle blunt & as deep as possible, profile square , a deal of loose skin down the sides of the face , ears either half erect or wholly pendant’ .
Malcolm Bush Wynn ended as following ~ ‘I append now a carefully considered scale of points , the work of Edgar Hanbury , Esq., with which I perfectly agree’ .
Note – The young age of MB Wynn is quite peculiar . MB Wynn was born at Wickham , Hampshire , on 9 March 1852 , and was educated privately at home by his father , Robert Wynn , an Anglican Reverend , born in London’ Camberwell nearby Brixton who was a scholar [Master of Arts] at Wadham , Oxford . Following the 1881 census for Scalford Vicarage , he was stated as ‘ Vicar of Scalford son ‘, unmarried . During the same year his father Robert Wynn and Malcolm’ invalid sis Eva died . He further on resided at his parental home , The Rectory , Church Street , Scalford until the end of his ‘Mastiff career’ in 1887, the year his mother Elisabeth died. In 1883 he married Miss M.A.B. Sunderland , a daughter of John Sunderland, Esq. , J.P. [ Justice of Peace ] , Coley Hall , an historic seat at Hipperholme near Halifax. His interests besides Mastiffs were also local history and archaeology . In 1888 he resigned as a member of the OEMC and became trained at the Gloucester School , the following year he was ordained a deacon and finally priest in 1890 . Malcolm Bush Wynn became Rector of the parishes East - & West Allington [ some five miles north of Belvoir castle] , nearby Grantham until his death on 3 March 1909 . He was President of the Grantham Clerical Society , and Co-Manager of the School .
MB Wynn bred his first Mastiff litter in the year 1867 , being an only fifteen years old boy . So it is obvious his father , the Vicar Robert Wynne , was certainly involved with the Mastiff scene , as MB Wynn was also only eighteen when he firstly entered Mastiffs at shows in 1870 . According to the 1873’ KC Stud Book, his first males were LL Pemberton’ Wolf , Monarch , Hercules & Lima , his first bitches champion Empress and her daughter champion Peeress . Hercules was bred by Reverend Baxendale of Kent . And , IMO , much of the research to be found within MB Wynn’ ‘History of the Mastiff was also due to his highly educated father , Master of Arts and maybe especially hobbying that indigenous breed of dogs , oozing such antiquity & pride of Britain .
In 1878 Stonehenge published a revised standard , warning especially for the Bloodhound cross regarding ‘the flews should be no means be pendulous , the eyes mild in expression but without sad & solemn look, the ears without the slightest approach to a fold & no troatiness .
Further on he mentions ‘ jaws moderatly long , full upper lip, flews distinctly marked so as to make a square outlook , the neck of sufficient length to avoid loss of symmetry ‘ .
He also remarks that ~ ‘ Sometimes white is shown on the face , but this is certainly a defect , though not a great one ‘ opposite Malcolm Bush Wynn’ vision of 1873 ~ ‘from time to time , the white face especially has and will occur , and generally in the finest specimens , and those which most closely resemble the paintings of their progenitors’…
Stonehenge 1878 goes on ~ ‘ Mastiffs were by no means a breed of handsome dogs , for we read that the feet were often weak and flat , the legs small in bone and bend at the knees , and that they frequently had cat-hams , and to gallop was quite beyond their power ’~ ‘Captain Garnier thinks that a cross of brindle is necessary to keep up the black points, but I scarcely think this can be correct , for the black is well marked in the Lyme Hall strain , as well as Mr. Kingdon’ crosses , none of which are derived from brindled sires or dams ’ .
In 1880 it was MB Wynn who revised his standard , a/o ~ expression lowering , broad stop , muzzle not tapering towards the nose , line of profile level [not drooping as in Hounds] .
Large nostrils , lips should fall forward [not hanging at the corners of the mouth as in Bloodhounds] , body thick-set & muscular with great length & bulk on comparatively short legs , neck short , thick & muscular .
The scale of points became also adapted based - muzzle breadth , squareness & flews 15 [Hanbury 10 ~ Stonehenge 5] ; neck , shoulders , breadth of breast 11 [Hanbury 6 ~ Stonehenge 15] ; legs , thighs , hocks & feet 13 [Hanbury 8 ~ Stonehenge 10] ; height 10 [Hanbury & Stonehenge 15] .
While Stonehenge seemed to use Thomas VH Lukey’ Mastiff as true ex amples and MB Wynn probably based his points upon Edgar Hanbury’ stock , represented by ch Rajah ( Lukey’ Governor’ great grandson ) , the OEMC head model , drawn by RH Moore and , IMO , mainly based upon champion Orlando , born 1882 , linebred by Dr John Sidney Turner towards ch Rajah , can be considered as the blueprint of Mastiff head type accepted by the majority of the then prominent breed stalwarts , emerged after considerable time of early dog show fancy and chosen after carefully taken compromises between doggy people carrying one common goal ~ the dedication to the ancient faithful guard of master & property .
Note 1 – A pity the OEMC never published a lateral impression of this ‘front’ view as it gives easily some distorted idea re length of skull/muzzle due ‘telescopic’ effect and that while ch Orlando and also his brother ch Hotspur both matched the standard ratio 2:1 .
Note 2 . The attached trade card Fry’s shows a similar pattern of chiselling , but , re ratio skull/muzzle 5:3 , somewhat sinning in rather over-bluntness .
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:26 PM||Reply with quote #11 |
No direct reference found re the possible inspiration of Dr Henry Walsh (Stonehenge) within the Mastiff standards he laid down , but maybe MB Wynn , educated by this father , a Master of Arts and scholar at the renowned Wadham College , Oxford , was more ‘penetrated’ by the lyrical world of antique sculpture , pottery , carving , painting & engraving when putting up his points of the Mastiff , in order to ‘secure’ an account re the solvability concerning the content of his ‘ideal description’ .
The 1859 – 1883 era isn’t only the period of progressively refined or tuned concept re points of standards , but also the cradle time of pedigreed dogs , in particular the Mastiff , even there exists pedigrees ( a/o Ormonde’ ) going back to Robinson’ Bold of Bold Hall & his mateing partner Thompson’ Rose , owned by the father of MB Wynn’ acquaintance the partner of THV Lukey in breeding Mastiffs , James Wigglesworth Thompson ; this parentage gave the brindle progenitor Holdsworth’ Lion , born 1820 . But as everyone knows , pedigrees became only established from 1874 when the first Stud Books were published , based upon short ancestral description re each winner at one of the many yearly dog shows since 1859 .
The ‘palpable’ cradle of the main ‘ Mastiff stud line ‘ was at London’ Leadenhall Market , established in the 14th century around a manor house with a lead roof . It became one of the best places in London to buy meat , game , poultry & fish . In 1666 it was destroyed in the Great Fire ; over the next years new buildings were erected on the old site . In Victorian times, this market was very busy, and had different days of the week for meat , fish , leather & hides .
A celebrated character in Leadenhall during the 18th century was ' Old Tom ', a gander which managed to escape execution even though it is recorded that 34,000 geese were slaughtered there in two days . He became a great favourite in the market and was fed at the local inns . After his death in 1835 at the age of 38 , he lay in state in the market and was buried there .’
It was at Leadenhall market Bill George bought Eve from a dealer ; later on Eve came into the possession of Colonel Garnier who mated her to f1 Adam [of Lyme Hall] , a dog standing 30 ½ inches at the shoulder , good length of body , good muscular shoulders & loins but slightly deficient in depth of body & breadth of forehead , also having a peculiar forward lay of his small ears , maybe as a result of a remote dash of Boarhound …
Their son , F2 Col. Garnier’ Lion , was described by MB Wynn as ~ ‘ A longish headed and somewhat leggy animal , with little pretention to true Mastiff character , showing according to his breeders’ own admission, unmistakeable signs of the boarhound .’ MB Wynn goes on writing ~ ‘ Mr Lukey , in possession of this grand animal [Countess] , failed to mate her judiciously , being carried away with the vulgar error for great size ; he crossed her with Lion [F2] , a dog bred in America ; the infusion of this mongrel blood nearly ruined Mr Lukey’ dogs …’ [ F3 Governor’ parents ! ] .
A representant of the Mastiff breed around 1860 as seen through the artist’ eye of (most probably) Harrison Weir (1824-1906) who also has drawn the Mastiff engravings within Reverend J.G. Wood’ The Illustrated Natural History , first edited in the early 1860s .
This chromolithograph plate depicting an array of breeds is part of Henry J. Johnson' Natural History , Comprehensive, Scientific , & Popular , Illustrating and Describing the Animal Kingdom based upon the writings of the eminent naturalists Audubon , Wallace , Brehm , Wood and others , edited by Hugh Craigh , M.A. Trinity College Cambridge . Illustrated with 64 full page chromolithographs executed in eight colors & tints , measuring 7” x 9 ½” , contributions by Samuel Goodrich , New York , 1874 .
F3 Lukey’ Governor , according to MB Wynn , ~ ‘appears to have taken after the boarhound type in his progenitor Adam ; Lukey himself admitted the dog’ deficiency of girth of chest and wretched long muzzle ; in fact Governor , grand large dog as he was , nevertheless was unquestionably to long in head and pointed in muzzle , he inherited plainly from his sire the wedge shaped head of the boarhound, Great Dane & Alpine sheepdog type.’Lukey’ Governor was superseded by his son F4 Hanbury’ Prince [out of Hanbury’ champion Duchess] , the one especially renowned for his bone .
Reverend J Rowe , old friend of the Belgian Reverend HKE Van Doorne , mated F4 Hanbury’ Prince to his Nell , full sis to champion King , resulting in Bellona , owned by Miss Hales , Ursa , owned by Miss Aglionby and finally in F5 Griffin .
Griffin F5 , was chosen by Edgar Hanbury [MB Wynn quoted him as ~ ‘ wresting the premier position from him [Mr Lukey] , a position that clever breeder has honestly held, and well merited , off and on ever since .’] to mate his Phillis [ Pemberton’ Wolf ex F4 Hanbury’ Prince’ sis Phoebe] ; the result was ch Rajah F6 the grand headed champion , looked at as the type of the future for people to breed up to .
WH Balleston of Palewell villa , East Sheen ~ London , bred F7, the internationally shown champion The Shah , sired by F6 ch Rajah out of his Ino [Lukey’ champion Beauty’ brother Baron x ch King’ daughter Nell , also grandsired by Lukey’ Harold] .
Mrs Rawlinson’ champion Countess [ch Turk’ son Sultan x Old Flora] was crossed with F7 ch The Shah which gave F8 ch The Emperor , owned by Joseph Evans of London .
Henry Woolmore [most probably] used F8 ch The Emperor to his Merlin , a F7 ch The Shah’ daughter , also going back [along Rupert] to Miss Aglionby’ great bitch champion Lottie [Big Ben x Druid’ daughter Druidess] , her great-grandam ; between their progeny a/o F9 ch Crown Prince .
Vide engraving of ch The Emperor issued by a German canine book which mentions that , according to Thomas Bewick [1753-1828] , the ‘modern’ Mastiff was the result of crosses between the Bulldog , the Great Dane and the ‘Ban-dog’.
Dr John Sidney Turner owned a F6 ch Rajah’ daughter , The Lady Rowena , also going back [along Rupert’ sis Ida] to Miss Aglionby’ ch Lottie ! Four litters out of The Lady Rowena were sired by F9 ch Crown Prince , one of the pups being F9 ch Orlando , so famous for his head properties .
Ch Lottie belonged to the most successful brood line ; her sire Big Ben sired also WK Taunton’ ch Cardinal and grandsired MH Beaufoy’ ch Beau [sired by ch Wolsey’ brother Prince] & Dr JS Turner’ Cedric The Saxon [bred out of ch Wolsey’ brother Prince’ Lady] while Lottie’ dam Druidess was halfsis to Hanbury’ brindle champion Queen , ch Wolsey’ dam . One can imagine the Edgar Hanbury’ ch Rajah ex ch Queen combination could have been the centre point of the then breeding for show purpose !
The Belgian Reverend HKE Van Doorne , owner of F10 ch Orlando used him for an inbreeding to ch Orlando’ daughter Hertha , also grandaughter to Dr Turner’ Cedric The Saxon ; their son F11 Orlando II was described as ~ ‘heavy bone , immense chest , large skull , weak hind quarters , moving badly .’
Captain Leo Piddocke preferred F11 Orlando II for mateing his ch Montgomery’ daughter Zillah III , also ch Cardinal’ grandaughter ; their son F12 ch Oglivie became the start off of a exceptional line up of brindle champions , a colour very much in favour at the turn of the century . Two years later the Captain bred a litter out of his ch. Victor Hugo’ champion daughter Jubilee Beauty using F12 ch Ogilvie , producing a most unusual quality litter containing a/o champion Brampton Beauty , Stella III [ch Ha Ha’ dam] , Iron Duke [ch Elgiva’ grandsire] & F13 Tom Bowling . Henry Woolmore bought the latter , F13 Tom Bowling , and bred from him a/o the quadruple Crufts winner ch Peter Piper & his unique brother Leyton Jim , out of his Selina [grandaughter to champions Beaufort & Ilford Chancellor] .
Unfortunately this stud line came to an end , so it was through another F13 Tom Bowling’ son the line continued , namely F14 Mellnotte , bred by Arthur W Lucas our of his Di Vernon [ch Beaufort’ Sir Stafford ex Rev Van Doorne’ ch Jack Thyr or Wodan’ daughter Erna] .
F14 Mellnotte sired a/o Robert Leadbetter’ Prince Sonderburg, bred by J Laquhee out of unr. Nell , who got a challenge award at Scottish Kennel Club Show under Fred Gresham & at Crufts under N Walker Hall . Nevertheless the most successful line up got through F14 Mellnotte’ grandson , the brindle champion Felix , bred by George Cook of Middlesbrough .
Robert Leadbetter’ Prince Sonderburg shows a nice bevelled off look but sins in being not cut square off in muzzle , i.o.w. forming a right angle with the upper line of the face ; in order to obtain also ‘ length of muzzle to whole head and face as 1 to 3’ , the muzzle has [approx.] to follow the dotted angle without such a protuding underjaw . His daughter Widmere Winnie got a challenge award at Birkenhead 1908 under Lt. Col. Zaccheus Walker !
Quote – ‘ I personally think the breed looks brilliant in the old and ruddy working dog condition . ‘
Indeed , very true connotation . Age gives the individual Mastiff ‘charisma’ , an air of wisdom , even of comtemplation enhanced by the greying of his black markings and slowering way of general behavior . He duly seems to relativise daily happenings in perspection of his own environment . One of the Mastiff people who artistically observed the works of aging is Mr Rosingh , the author of a visualised specialist breed book ‘Mastiff Images’ , displaying his Lazybones in quite natural poses and environments opposed to those artificial show / advert photographs or cabinet portraits . Definitely recommended for lovers of ‘essential purity’ without any superfluous lumber , Mastiif although oozing dictinction all over , even in snap shooting results .
A nicely written testimony about the aging Mastiff is to be found in Dr John Brown’ Rab and his Friends ' ed. 1858 , the first volume in the series 'Little Prose Masterpieces' issued by Foulis .
Dr John Brown [ Biggar 1810-1882 ] was an Edinburgh' physician and a man of letters who possessed an unique insight into dog-nature . The essay ' Rab and his friends ' treats of the story of an old Mastiff , called Rab , and the way he touches the lives of those around him . ~ An excerpt ~
' There , under the single arch of the South bridge is a huge Mastiff , sauntering down the middle of the causeway , as if with his hands in his pockets ; he is old , grey , brindled and as big as a little Highland bull , and has the Shakespearian dewlaps shaking as he goes .The Chicken [a bull terrier] makes straight at him , and fastens on his throat . To our astonishment , the great creature does nothing but stand still , hold himself up , and roar – yes , roar ; a long , serious , remonstrative roar . How is this ? Bob and I are up to them .
He is muzzled ! The bailies had proclaimed a general muzzling , and his master had encompassed his huge jaws in a leathered apparatus . ‘A knife ! ‘cried Bob ; and a cobbler gave him his knife . I put its edge to the tense leather ; it ran before it ; and then ! – one sudden jerk of that enormous head , a sort of dusty mist about his mouth , no noise – and the bright and fierce little fellow is dropped , limp and dead. A solemn pause ; this was more than any of us had bargained for.
I turned the little fellow over , and saw he was quite dead : the Mastiff had taken him by the small of the back like a rat , and broken it . He looked down at his victim , appeased , ashamed , and amazed , snuffed him all over , stared at him , and , taking a sudden thought , turned round and trotted off .
There are no such dogs now . He belonged to a lost tribe . As I have said , he was brindled , and grey like Rubislaw granite ; his hair short , hard , and close , like a lion’s ; his body thickset , like a little bull - a sort of compressed Hercules of a dog . He had a large blunt head ; his muzzle black as night , his mouth blacker than any night , a tooth or two – being all he had - gleaming out of his jaws of darkness . His head was scarred with the records of old wounds , a sort of series of fields of battle all over it . Rab had the dignity and simplicity of great size ; and having fought his way all along the road to absolute supremacy, he was as mighty in his own line as Julius Caesar or the Duke of Wellington and had the gravity of all great fighters .
Fit end for Rab , quick and complete . His teeth and his friends gone , why should he keep the peace and be civil ? He was buried in the braeface, near the burn , the children of the village , his companions, who used to make very free with him and sit on his ample stomach , as he lay half asleep at the door in the sun , watching the solemnity . '
Quote – ‘ I never said it was a bad thing, I like War Dogs ‘ .
L’histoire se répète , and that some centuries after the battle fields at Agincourt where Sir
Sir Piers Legh was wounded and fell, but his Mastiff bitch stood over him and protected him against all attackers during the long battle. Although Legh later died, the Mastiff returned to Legh's home and was the foundation of the Lyme Hall Mastiffs and a source of chivalry , so beautifully described by then very popular author , Sir Walter Scott , a/o in Ivanhoe  , a tale set in the age of Richard the Lion-Hearted .
In bird’s-eye view - Wilfred of Ivanhoe loves The Lady Rowena * of Avalon , but his father plans marry her to Athelstane of Coningsburgh . Ivanhoe serves with King Richard in the crusades . King' brother John tries to usurp the throne with the help of Norman barons . Richard appears in disguise at the tournament at Ashby de la Zouch , where he helps Ivanhoe to defeat John' knights . At the tournament Sir Brian falls in love with Rebecca , a beautiful Jewess . She is taken captive with her father Isaac , Rowena , Ivanhoe , and Cedric by the Norman barons and imprisoned in Torquilstone .
The King and his band of outlaws , among them Robin Hood , release the prisoners . Rebecca is carried off by Bois-Guilbert and charged of witchcraft . Ivanhoe appears as her champion , opposing Bois-Guilbert , who dies . Rebecca , seeing Ivanhoe' love for Rowena , leaves England with her father . There are basically two sides to this struggle for control of England , the Normans and the Saxons ; the Normans were from the English-hated France , so they didn't have much of a chance of being liked by the Saxons .
So , of course , the English stiff upper-lip is indeed a caricature of the real Briton’ ‘ romantic ‘ nature , but that same conclusion can also be made re his national breeds , the Bulldog & Mastiff , soft souls covered by cloths of harsh determination .
A nice tribute to the Brits , Deborah !
* Note – Dr Sidney Turner , prominent Victorian breeder , OEMC President & Chairman of the Kennel Club renamed his foundation brood ch Rajah’ daughter & ch Colonel’ grandaughter ‘ Laura ‘ into ‘ The Lady Rowena ‘ !
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:32 PM||Reply with quote #12 |
We all know that our breed and its history has led to many conflicts of opinions since the emergence of dog shows and , be sure , as the tide , it will be a never ending story of opposing interpretations in the future . The Mastiff fancy is only a mirror of global social behavior .
History cannot be only purely factual ; historical data & documenta need interpretation in order to become ‘alive’ instead of remain dull & boring as in case one should be supplied with all the KC Stud Book records i.e. names , data , parentage , prizes , but without any other information .
Now, one can arguing about the degree of objectivity re historical interpretations ‘tout court’ and that’s quite right , but one cannot demand that everyone should handle the same methods of interpretation and of course ‘de gout et de couleur , on ne discute pas’ .
One should always take in mind that information needs to be scrutinized , i.e. double checked or cross-examined by sources as much as possible . That’s , IMO , the only available option in order to ‘create’ an although imperfect global approach , but in some way workable as a kind of historical touch stone for actual ‘hot’ breed matters . The study of Mastiff history shall always remain only a courageous attempt to reconstruct a huge jigsaw without owning the whole set of little parcels ; those lacking pieces give reason for confusion or even worse frustration , but they also can ‘spur’ the passionate historian on digging further for enlightening the remaining ‘dark’ backside facets of that fine glittering kaleidoscope of the past .
Therefore another jump back through history in search of truth .
Of English Dogs , the Mastiff described by Joannes Caius (1510 – 1570) , court physician-in-chief to Queen Elizabeth I , scholar and refounder of the Gonville & Caius College at Cambridge .
‘ This kind of dog , called a Mastiff or Bandog , is vast , huge , stubborn , ugly , and eager ; of a heavy and burdenous body , and therefore but of little swiftness ; terrible and frightful to behold ; and more fierce and fell than any Arcadian cur , nothwithstanding , they are said to have their generation of the violent lion .
They are called Villatici , because they are appointed to watch and keep farm places and country cottages sequestered from common recourse , and not abutting upon other houses by reason of distance; when there is any fear concieved of thieves , robbers , spoilers , and nightwanderers . They are serviceable against the fox , and the badger ; to drive wild and tame swine out of meadows , pastures , glebelands , and places planted with fruit ; to bait and take the bull by the ear , when occasion so requireth . One dog , or two at the uttermost , are sufficient for that purpose , be bull never so monstrous , never so untameable . For it is a kind of dog capable of courage , violent and valiant , striking cold fear into the hearts of men ; but standing in fear of no man ; in so much that no weapons will make him shrink , or abridge his boldness .
Our Englishmen [to the extent that their dogs might be the more fell and fierce] assist nature with art , use , and custom . For , they teach their dogs to bait the bear; to bait the bull , and other such like cruel and bloody beasts [appointing an overseer of the game] without any collar to defend their throats ; and oftentimes they train them up in fighting and wrestling with a man , having [for his safeguard of his life] either a pikestaff , a club , or a sword . And by using [accustoming] them to exercise as these, their dogs become more sturdy and strong .
The force which is in them surmounteth all belief ; the fast hold which they take with their teeth exceedeth all credit . Three of them against a bear , four against a lion are sufficient , both to try masteries with them , and utterly to overmatch them .
Which thing , HENRY the SEVENTH [1457 -1509] of that name , King of England [a Prince both politic and warlike] perceiving on a certain time , as the report runneth ; commanded all such dogs how many soever they were in number should be hanged ; being deeply displeased , and conceiving great disdain , than an ill favoured rascal cur should , with such violent villainy , assault the valiant king of beasts .
An example for all subjects worthy remembrance , to admonish them that it is no advantage to them to rebel against their ruler ; but to keep them within the limits of loyalty .
I read an history answerable to this , of the selfsame HENRY , who having a notable and an excellent fair falcon , it fortuned that the King’ Falconers , in the presence and hearing of His Grace , highly commended his Majesty’ Falcon , saying , ‘that it feared not to intermeddle with an eagle , it was venturous and so mighty a bird’ ; which when the King heard , he charged that the falcon should be killed without delay ; for the selfsame reason , as it may seem , which was rehearsed in the conclusion of the former history concerning the same King .
This dog is called , in like manner , Cathenarius , à Cathena , of the chain wherewith he is tied at the gates, in the day time ; lest being loose , he should do much mischief ; and yet might give occasion of fear and terror , by his big barking . And albeit CICERO , in his oration Pro S. Ross had been of this opinion , that such dogs as bark in the broad daylight should have their legs broken ; yet our countrymen on this side of the seas , for their carelesness of life , ‘setting all at cinque and sice’ are of a contrary judgement. For the thieves rogue up and down in every corner , no place is free from them ; no , not the Prince’ Palace , nor the countryman’ cottage . In the day time , they practise pilfering , picking , open robbing , and privy stealing ; and what legerdemain lack they ? not fearing the shameful and horrible death by hanging .
The cause of which inconvenience doth not only issue from nipping need and wringing want ; for all that steal are not pinched with poverty : but some steal to maintain their excessive and prodigal expenses in apparel ; their lewdness of life , their haughtiness of heart , their wantoness of manner , their wilful idleness , their ambitious bravery , and the pride of the saucy Salacones vain glorious and arrogant in behaviour , whose delight dependeth wholly to mount nimbly on horseback , to make them leap lustily , spring and prance , gallop and amble , to run a race , to wind in compass , and so forth ; living altogether upon the fatness of the spoil . Othersome there be which steal , being thereto provoked by penury and need , like masterless men applying themselves to no honest trade , but ranging up and down impudently begging ; and complaining of bodily weaknesses , where is no want of ability .
But valiant VALENTINE the Emperor , by wholesome laws provided , that such as having no corporal sickness, sold themselves to begging , pleaded poverty with pretended infirmity , cloaked their idle and slothful life with colourable shifts and cloudy cossening , [cozening] should be a perpetual slave and drudge to him , by whom their impudent idleness was bewrayed and laid against them in public place ; lest the insufferable slothfulness of such vagabonds , should be burdenous to the people ; or , being so hateful and odious , should grow into an example .
ALFRED , likewise , in the government of his commonwealth , procured such increase of credit to justice and upright dealing by his prudent acts and statutes , that if a man travelling by the highway of the country under his dominion , chanced to lose a budget full of gold , or his capcase farced [stuffed] with things of great value , late in the evening ; he should find it where he lost it , safe , sound , and untouched the next morning ; yea , which is a wonder , at any time for a whole space if he sought for it , as INGULPHUS Croyladensis , in his History , recordeth . But in this our unhappy age ; in these I say , our devilish days , nothing can escape the claws of the spoilers ; thought it be kept never so sure with the house ; albeit the doors be locked and bolted round about . ‘
Note 1 . The Mastiff & Poodle tale is unfortunately without any reference , but propably dating from Victorian age . Attached another tale , this one was published by Chatterbox , a Victorian children story paper founded by Reverend John Erskine Clarke . The drawing is by Harrison Weir .
Note 2 . Indeed , the clergy was well represented within Mastiff history , mentioning only a few of them – Reverend Malcolm Bush Wynn , author of early Mastiff breed standards & ‘The History of the Mastiff’ (1886) ; Reverend Wiliam James Mellor , once owner of ch Crown Prince , and one of the authors of the OEMC standards ; Reverend Rowe , breeder of champion Stella b 1867 ; Reverend Bulkeley Jones , breeder of champions Nero & Gwendolen ; Miss Mary B F Hales , aka Sister Mary Clare of the Carmelite order , and owner of a/o that famous ‘ pre - Crown Prince era ‘ champion Lion (vide pic) .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:38 PM||Reply with quote #13 |
Nice people !
One of the prominent breeders of the ‘romantic’ Victorian heyday of the breed was
THE BELGIAN REVEREND HENRY K E VAN DOORNE , owner of champion Orlando & breeder of champions Jack Thyr & Frigga , the latter together with her sis ch Frigga Secunda , stood model for Arthur Wardle’ drawing of ‘Ideal Mastiffs’ , which till present is used by a number of English stalwarts as an example for overall type (seen in lateral view).
His curriculum vitae . Henry Van Doorne was born in 1841 at Poeke , a small rural village in the East of Flanders [30 miles west of Appelterre] , as the son of Joannes Van Doorne, the burgomaster of Poeke who was also a wealthy notary.
Henry was an ex-student of the Flemish poet Guido Gezelle who teached him at the seminary of Roeselare where also English pupils resided.
Gezelle , who craved to become a missionary in England , only became appointed as co-director at the English college and as a teacher at the Seminarium Anglo-Belgicum , both in Bruges . But under the impulse of the English converts and art-lovers residing at Bruges , a wave of ‘Anglomania’ arised between Flemish colleagues . It became proclaimed that Englishmen should embrace Catholicism if there should be enough priests.
Gezelle’s pupil Hendrik Van Doorne succeeded in his master’s dream and became ordained Roman Catholic priest at Melior Street , South East London , by Bishop Thomas Grant [1816-1870] , August 24th 1865 , after that he continued his studies at Rome . In September 1866 the Reverend Van Doorne became rector of a Convent at St-Leonard nearby Hastings on the South Coast , further on he became appointed at the mission of the port of Southampton and in 1871 he once again moved to another mission at the South Coast , Christ Church some seven miles West of Lymington where he got acquainted with the aristocratic John Weld of the Lodge . Being a skilled hunter , enamoured by horses and pedigree dogs, he ever was a welcome guest at the Lymington’ Lodge in the nearby of the Isle of Wight . Later on , when working in the London’ Southwark area , he loved to spend some days at the Lodge . In 1878 he accompanied Bishop Danell on his educational trip by railway into the direction of Lymington ,where they stayed at the Weld’ Lodge at the borders of New Forest . In 1873 he became rector of the Convent at Roehampton , North of Wimbledon and the following year he became chaplain of Jos. Charles Mc Grath , the Presbytery, Camberwell New Road nr Lambeth . Rev. Mc Grath was his old fellow student at the Seminarium Anglo-Belgicum at Bruges.
The Reverend Van Doorne was preferably active at Brixton where he justly in 1881 became appointed as pastor . At Brixton wasn’t a chapel nor a school and the parish only counted 75 catholics . The expansion of Brixton parish should become his life’s work remaining there till February 1901 . Many well-to-do families resided there in stately mansions . Father Van Doorne sojourned gladly and easily in higher companies , a/o befriended with James Barry-Ball , the otorinolaryngologist who wrote several medical studies an who was married Flora Weld ‘sis Clara , daughter of Joseph Weld of Lymington . Also a great number of scientists and artists belonged to his circle of friends.
The Reverend Van Doorne was also co-founder and vice-warden of the ‘ Guild of St-Gregory and St-Luke ’ , aiming the promotion of the study of the Christian Antiquity & Archeology and the renewal of the Christian art according to the genuine Neogothic principles . The founding of the Guild was inspired by an ex student of the Seminarium at Bruges , namely James Waele and the first warden was Sir Stuart Knill , ex Mayor of London . It counted under their members a/o the painter PH Westlake , the archeologist Edmund Bishop and the architects J.H. Eastwood & John Bentley , the latter being the designer of ‘ Westminster Cathedral ‘ by order of Cardinal Vaughan.
at left ~ A group portrait f l to r ~ Reverend Henry Van Doorne , Guido Gezelle’ nephew Reverend Caesar Gezelle , Dr Hullin , Miss Eliza Weld & an unknown women.
In 1881 he searched after an appropriate ground for his Neo-gothic parish church and found a propriety ‘ No 4 , Gwydyr House ‘, Trent Road Brixton Rise Brixton , only 500 yards away Her Majesty's Convict Prison Brixton built in 1819 . After episcopal opposition regarding financial support and being a son out of a race of wealthy Flemish notaries , he decided to take the entire charge on one self and bought the mansion & grounds for £ 2.600.
He also constantly collected for the building of his church but also for his school . In this respect , he organised a/o a ‘Grand Garden Party‘ in the Gardens of Gwydyr House , where the well-known artist Westlake signed ‘collecting cards.
Reverend Henry Van Doorne leaved this whole ‘school action ‘ to a group of prominent ladies , under whom maybe also Dr John Sidney Turner’ wife Mrs Isabella Scott , born at Stockwell village , part of Brixton Parish .
Already the next year the Reverend Van Doorne could open a ‘Convent School‘ at Brixton Hill, trusted to the ‘ Notre Dam Nuns ‘ , originating from Namur , a provincial capital in Belgium . Later on it became ‘ Lambeth College ‘ . In 1882 he ordered J. Bentley to design a plan for a Neogothic ‘ Corpus Christi ‘ church in red bricks and a spire 190 feet high , costs were estimated at £ 20.000 . On June 12th 1887 , Bishop Butt opened in state the East part and the left transept and the parish of Brixton flourished , counting eight hundred Catholics but pastor Van Doorne had still to collect for the remaining expansion of his Neogothic Church till he resigned in 1901 .
Due to the industrialisation of the area , many rich families has left Brixton and gradually Brixton became housed by a majority of workers and unemployed people . One couldn’t expect much interest regarding the expansion of a ‘cathedral church ‘ !
Some source mentions that justly before his resignation he stayed some time at the Lodge or Lulworth Castle as a guest of the aristocratic ‘ Joseph Weld family ‘ , conspicuous for its zeal for the Roman Catholic Church .
An interesting note is that the Mastiff breeder JS Cockerton resided only two miles away from Lulworth castle ; he bred a/o Princess Staffordia b April 1892 sired by ch Lord Stafford out of a daughter of the Rev HKE Van Doorne’ champion Jack Thyr , Amalaswintha [Queen of the Ostrogoths , a Germanic tribe that influenced the Roman Empire during the 6th century] !
This dramatic 17th century hunting lodge was inspired by chivalric literature so loved by the Jacobean Court . In 1643 the estate was purchased by Humphrey Weld , a wealthy Londoner , and it became the Weld family’ principal home , superbly set into beautiful parkland with views on the Channel . In the park was built the Catholic church of St Mary by Flora Weld’ great-grandfather , Thomas Weld . A neo-classical building looking like a large garden temple . The interior has a central dome and a marble altar obtained from Rome . Thomas Weld’ son Thomas Weld (1773-1837) was ordained Cardinal in 1829 while his other son , Flora Weld’ grandfather launched in 1830 the famous cutter yacht ‘ Alarm ‘ at 1993 tons , the biggest ever built to that time . It became known as the ‘ Queen of the South ‘ being one of the products of Joseph Weld’ knowledge and understanding of the relatively new science of naval architecture as applied for yachts .
Following the Census Returns of 1891 , the Rev. van Doorne had taken British citizenship and was the head of the household , containing Arthur de Backer , born in 1866 , a painter and listed as a visitor . Probably it was a craftsman who decorated the ‘ Corpus Christi ‘ church .
The Reverend Henry Van Doorne was obviously a Jack-of-all-trades , known as a keen collector of religious & other ‘antiques’ and being a poet and novelist , publishing in 1881 his autobiographical novel ‘ Jan van Noorde ‘ , wherein some didactical references concerning the consequences of alcoholism , the education of children and the benefactions of physical exercises , being very fond of hunting & horse riding .
at left ~ Cardinal Thomas Weld [ 1773-1837] , son of Miss Flora Weld ’ great-grandfather .
During his missionary he made regularly holiday at Poeke where he loved to hunt and ride on horseback in the neighbourhood of the Ruiselede’ farmhouse & wood , owned by the Van Doorne family . In 1901 the Reverend , being weary and ill , returned finally back to Poeke where he resided in his parental house .
Miss Flora Weld [1861-1935] , the daughter of his best friend Joseph Weld of the Lodge , followed him some time later and became his governess at Poeke.
She managed the work of the maids and looked after his goats & pedigree dogs …
If he brought , when on holiday , Orlando or other Mastiff stock with him at Poeke , isn’t known nor if he owned Mastiffs during his retirement there .
The Reverend Henry Van Doorne suffered from liver cancer and he regularly moved via Ostend ~ Dover to Dr James Barry Ball London for an X-ray treatment , but finally he died in 1914 , just before the break out of the 1st World War .
His Mastiff involvement
Since 1878 , the Reverend Henry KE Van Doorne attended the principal Mastiff shows, but he only started his show career in 1886 at the Crystal Palace where his Holda got 1st puppy prize under the eminent judge , Dr John Sidney Turner of Stanton House , Upper Norwood , London SE.
The show report mentioned ' Mastiff bitch puppies had but two entries , much to the regret of the Reverend owner of Holda , who met a warm welcome from Mastiff men , and upon whom the mantle of his old friend , Father J.B. Rowe , may descent .
Holda is of the highest promise and has wonderful size , length of body , perfect symmetry , standing on legs which for bone and shape I never have seen equalled ; her skull and muzzle are very good , her teeth level and but for a light eye and rather light mask .
It would be difficult to find a fault ; her weight at eight months is 117 lbs in fair condition , her toilet was all that could be desired and reflected the greatest credit upon her Belgian keeper, Reverend Henry Van Doorne of Brixron Rise ' .
It seems that the Reverend must have maintained some regular contact with Dr Turner of Upper Norwood , only some 3 fair miles away from Brixton and quite accessible by train . Holda was bred by the Rev. Van Doorne out of Wunna sired by the well-known champion Dr John Sidney Turner' Orlando who later on , according to 'de Bylandt ' , became in the ownership of the Belgian Reverend .
Dr Turner’ Cedric The Saxon sired Wunna , which was his only successful mating according to the Stud Books. He got back to Big Ben and ch Wolsey's brother Prince . Wunna's dam was Mona , pedigree stated in the Stud Books as unknown ; nevertheless it seems interesting to seek after the origin of Holda's mentioned qualities .
Wunna had also a sister , named ' Gytha II ' , so maybe related to Githa b. 1875 , bred by Mr Fritzgerald . She was sister to Crown Prince's dam Merlin b. 1876 , bred by Mr Fitzherbert . They were out of Rhoda sired by the famous ch. The Shah whose [presumably younger] sister Mona , owned by her breeder Mr Balleston , has given a litter in 1878 sired by ch. Wolsey . It could be possible that later on Fitzherbert acquired this Mona and mated [± 1881] her to Cedric The Saxon with as result Wunna and Gytha II , as such called after her niece Githa . In this case Wunna and Gytha II were also going back to the very much-used ' The Shah ' line along his sis Mona .
Maybe , as stud fee , both puppies were firstly possessed by Dr Turner who preferred for some opportunity to conceal Mona's ancestry because of the already omnipresence of The Shah's double grandson, Crown Prince in his own breeding stock and later on they changed hands for some reason and the Reverend Van Doorne became the owner . The Mastiff breeding of Henry Van Doorne was very close , almost an inbreeding to his foundation stock , Wunna , Gytha II & Orlando .
He bred two champions , Frigga b. 1886 & Jack Thyr b. 1886 ; the following was mentioned in the Kennel Gazette review ' The past year 1889 ' written by ' A Young Breeder ' [maybe Mr Charles Court Rice' nom de plume , breeder of champions Frigga Secunda (out of Van Doorne’ ch Frigga) & Elgiva] .
It is noteworthy that in respect to almost all breeds there is an agreement as to the improvement in general quality . It ssems to be practically admitted that the average winnersd of the present day are almost equal to the phenomenal dogs of a few years ago , and that even if entries are comparatively smaller than formerly , it is simply because inferior specimens , such as formed the rank and file in days gone by , are now seldom shown .
at left ~ ch Jack Thyr’ sire ch Orlando , brother to a/o ch Hotspur & uncle to ch Beaufort ; at rigt ch Jack Thyr’ grandsire along the maternal line , ch His Majesty King Canute , brother to Mrs Geo Willins’ ch Cambrian Princess , the dam of the Am. ch Minting ; Canute was also half brother to ch Beaufort . Interesting to note is that ch Jack Thyr’ GGG sire , Gurth [ch The Shah x Rev Hichens’ Mab] was also owned by Mrs Geo Willins of Bradmore House , Hammersmith ; reports about HM King Canute were as following ~ ‘ extraordinary size [206 lbs] , well knit frame , very typical head , rather too much lip ; lacked condition , not straight in his pasterns & now narrow in his thighs .’
' Jack Thyr has since come into Challenge class , where he should do well . Now that Minting is dead I believe Jack to be the best Mastiff living , coming nearer to my ideal than any other dog we have ; he is not a tall dog ( 28 ½ at shoulder , 156 lbs weight ) but has wonderful bone and substance . I consider his skull and muzzle excellent , and his wide and powerful under-jaw put the finishing touch to a very good tout emsemble . His eyes and mask might be darker and there is undoubtedly more of the navvy than of the gentlemen in his look. But I may add that I do not consider this latter characteristic a fault , for I feel that an English Mastiff should be the reverse of a carpet knight . Frigga is as good a bitch as we need wish for , I consider that she would be perfect but for her large ears and her slight tendency to straightness in hocks.'
Later on , Frigga became the dam of the well-known ' Frigga Secunda ' sired by ch. Beaufort's son Sir Stafford and bred by Mr Court Rice . Dam & daughter served as models for the drawing ' Ideal Mastiffs ' by Arthur Wardle [see Appendix , Crystal Palace report by the OEMC Secretary Richard Cook] .
The Reverend’ most influential own-bred Mastiff was Orlando II born August 1887 who sired ch Ogilvie . Orlando II [Orlando ex Holda’ sis Hertha] was described by the Ilford breeder Richard Cook of Ilford kennels [July 1888] ~ ' a very massive dog for his age , with large skull, immense chest & good forelegs but moves badly. Vide below at left .
Ogilvie's breeder Capt. Piddocke (Feb. 1889) described him as : ' has a grand skull frontispiece , with heavy bone , but appears to inherit the weakness of his sire Orlando in hind quarters .'
Orlando II ' son , ch. Ogilvie was the ancestor of all the Mastiff champions born after March 1891 , only two years after Ogilvie's birth ; this can be considered as an unique record also the fact Ogilvie [vide RH Moore’ drawing above at left] shared with the Bulldog ‘British Monarch’ the first prize for best Non-sporting Dog at the Bristol championship show 1891 was a very rare event in the breed history .
Rev Van Doorne resided at the Vicarage , Trent Road , nearby his lifework , the Neo-Gothic Corpus Christi Church at Brixton Hill and nearby the Windmill [see blue point] where convicts of Brixton Prison had to perform penal servitude in the treadmill .
The whip ‘Cat o’nine tails’ , so called because it leaves marks like the scratches of a cat , was invented in ancient Egypt and also used in Victorian prisons ; it consisted of nine knotted cords fastened to a handle.
The Reverend's maiden performance of judging Mastiffs was at the Kennel Club show (Agricultural Hall) in 1890 where he already wrote an very extensive report , only surpassed in length by those of Malcolm Bush Wynn . Van Doorne mentioned a/o ' The late Rev. J.B. Rowe , one of the great & leading authorities on Mastiffs some twenty years ago [bred ch. Stella , niece to ch. Hale's Lion] and who used to be not an infrequent visitor of my kennels , always professed himself a strong adherer to the under hung style of muzzle which is now spoken and condemned by many as the 'modern Bulldog type ' .
In the Field Jan 1st 1869 , the Rev. Rowe writes ' I believe that none of our present dogs can be traced back above 5 or 6 generations . Now as none can be found without some slight stain on their pedigree , we must select that cross which partakes most of the true Mastiff character , and this is , I believe , the Bulldog ; of all strains , if strain must be called , fear the Bulldog least , for it will keep up the character of the dog , if it will lessens his size . He followed the line cut out by Youatt who says the Mastiff head considerably resembles that of the Bulldog , but with ears dependant , also other many other Mastiff critics were expressed in the Field about that same date , almost all of them advocating undershotness .
How then can the accusation that the short bluff undershot muzzle is a 'modern Bulldog type' be substantiated ? How differently the leading organ of sport (The Field) judged then from its reports of to day : - ' Quantum mutatus ab illo .' And yet Stonehenge knew what he was about . I want a Mastiff that possess a bluff, blunt and short muzzle , not to excess , of course , but he must be broad under the eye and carry that width right down to end of the snout . That is where Jack so admirably excels . In the challenge class the Reverend gave 1st prizes to W.K. Taunton' ch Hotspur and Mr Court Rice' ch Frigga but it were the 1st prizes of Open Class who got the challenge awards , Captain Piddocke' Ogilvie and Mrs Lee' Holda . The Reverend' last show entry into the Studbooks was with his champion Jack Thyr , winning the challenge award at Crufts 1891 , beating WK Taunton' Hotspur and Dr Turner' Ayrshire while the bitch cc was awarded to Mr Court Rice' ch Frigga , bred by the Rev. Van Doorne who bred his 11th and also last registered Mastiff litter some months later after which he disappeared from the scene . From 1886 till 1891 only Mr Jason Hutchings has bred more litters , namely 21 .
The Reverend Henry van Doorne named many of his Mastiff stock after Norse mythology . Jack Thyr, Tyr , god of war & athletic sports , whom one hand was bitten off by the wolf Fenris ; Frigga , Frigg , goddess of marriage and the wife of the chief Norse god , Odin ; Heimdal , Heimdall , watchman of the bridge Bifrost which led to the underworld ; Edda , Edda , goddess of myth , oral history & inspiration of poets ; Gerda , Gerd , giant goddess of light , the most beautiful of creatures ; Widar , Vidar , Odin’ son . Orlando [named by Dr Turner] was probably derived from the poem ‘ Orlando Furioso ‘ by Ludovico Ariosto [1473-1533] who described the love of the knight Orlando for Angelica and later on it became a worldwide known opera .
It was at Crystal Palace that Rev Van Doorne made his show début , winning 1st prize puppy class in ‘86 with Holda under Dr Turner . His Jack Thyr got the challenge twice at Crystal Palace [in ‘89 with his son Piddocke’ Don Juan II 2nd Open class after Andrews’ Lord Stafford & in ‘90 , Piddocke’ Ogilvie winning Open Class] . Mr Rice’ Frigga , bred by Rev Van Doorne, got the highest female honours there in ‘90 & ‘91 , beating Dr Turner’ Seabreeze & C Rice’ Frigga Secunda , her daughter .
Crystal Palace was admirably adapted for big exhibitions such as the annual Dog Show of the Kennel Club . The animals were benched all along the nave , which was 1608 ft long . The central transept was reserved for the Judges’ rings . The Palace was a good location because its light airy atmosphere made the barking of the dogs more tolerably than they would have been in a smaller building . The best bred dogs in the country were sent to the show . The Kennel Club had the same authority in the world of dogs as the Jockey Club had on the Turf .
Judge reports concerning ancestors & specimens of Reverend Henry Van Doorne’ stock . Note - Reverend Van Doorne got prizes mainly in London or London’ boroughs ;but also 3x at Brighton [50 miles] , 2x at Warwick [100 miles] & 1x at Manchester * [200 miles] * under WK Taunton .
Cedric the Saxon [sired VD’ foundation bitches Wunna , Holda & Hertha] ~ has a grand shaped head , but he wants wrinkle , and falls away in his quarters ~ a grand dog , and good enough to win in ordinary company ~ we would like him better if shorter and heavier in muzzle .
Orlando [sired some five VD’ litters] ~ is a wonderful dog for his age [11 months] ; with a smaller ear and a darker eye , he would be perfect~ if he goes on improving he will be a crack one of these days , his fault now being that he is too straight in his stifles and hocks ~ a magnificent dog as far as his front is concerned , but he is spoilt by a pair of very straight stifles , which are hardly capable of bearing his weight .
His head is broad and massive , and his muzzle is very square and deep , bone enormous , and colour good~ his head is magnificent , but he has bad forelegs and is too low at the shoulder ~ in stud dogs he had it all to himself and was looking more active and better than we last saw him , and his head simply smoothered everything in the show [Ranelagh 1887] except that of Beaufort ; and Gerda , Frigga and Holda satisfactorily prove that he can beget good bodied , symmetrical offspring .
Hotspur [sired one VD’litter]- another puppy, has his ears set on too high , making his skull appear small, he is inclined to be up-faced , and is not good in his hind quarters ~ by far the best headed Mastiff in the class , is so dwarfed in his hind quarters that is a pity so valuable a dog for stud purposes should be entered for competition , otherwise we felt justified in so doing , we should like to have placed him first for head and shoulders alone.
He is about the most perfect Mastiff in head properties now on the bench , but his straight hocks make him move very badly behind ~ has a better head than either , good in skull and muzzle , perfect dark eye and small thin well carried ear ; in body he is on the small scale , but were his hind-quarters as good as his fore he would have held higher place ~ in very fair trim , a grand type of dog , and his head will long remembered as the model to be attained . Gytha II [Frigga’ & Gerda’ dam] ~ has a nice skull, and is good under the eyes , but she is small in bone and wanting in substance .
Heimdal [from VD’1st litter Orlando / Wunna] ~ wants time to make up ; his skull and muzzle are good , but his hind quarters are too straight .
If he improves in this respect , he may yet become a nut to crack .
Holda [Heimdal’ litter sis] ~ a bitch puppy of the highest promise , and has wonderful size, length of body , perfect symmetry , standing on legs which for bone and shape I never have seen equalled .
Her skull and muzzle are very good , her teeth level , and but for a light eye and rather light mask it would be difficult to find a fault . Her weight at eight months was 117 lb.~ has to much ear , but stands and moves well and her body is perfection ~ a very good type of Mastiff bitch .
Wodan [VD’ 2nd litter Beaufort / Gytha II] ~ just over a year old , promises to make a first-rate dog. His body is as yet unfurnished , but he has a first-rate head , and a good dark eye, his legs are straight and he moves well ~ shown in bad condition , just managed to score first , owing to the really good points he possesses .
We gave him he benefit of the doubt for possessing soundness and robustness of constitution , of which his condition caused us to have grave doubts , and we hardly know if we were justified in placing him forward under the circumstances.
He is not sufficiently massive for his size , and still shows the cone , being very deficient in temporal muscles ~ has a grand head , almost too short and square , but he is flat-sided .
He possesses a very short head and square muzzle, but he still wants more substance in body for his great length ; in this particular he is , however , showing signs of improvement ; he is too much wrinkled over the muzzle , which gives it a telescopic appearance , and spoils his expression .
He is still making up and looked better than we last saw him ~ possesses so prominently that fine quality and Mastiff character, this dog’s failing is a flatness of rib ; were it otherwise he would as nearly as possible approach the grandeur of his sire , Beaufort .
Gerda [VD’ 4th litter Orlando / Gytha II] ~ has a grand head and plenty of bone , and showed herself to perfection . Except for want of blackness about the ears , she is a little model , well grown , thoroughly symmetrical , and reminded us greatly of Mr Lukey’ once famous Beauty . Gerda is every inch a Mastiff, but is small ~ is on too small a scale, and is short in the middle , good in skull and muzzle but too full and light in the colour of the eye .
She is a very pretty bitch , whose only fault is lack of size ; her head is very good and with a little more substance she would be hard to beat .
Note – Gerda produced the American champion Beaufort’ Black Prince sired by ch Beaufort .
Champion Frigga [Gerda’ sis] ~ is spoilt by her large ears , but her head is good ~ a trifle larger than Gerda , but is not so good in muzzle , colour or bone , still, she is thoroughly symmetrical ~ wants length of body ~ is good in skull and splendid in body, legs , size and condition . Her muzzle is broad , but too pronounced in stop between the eyes ; her greatest fault is large and light ears ~ a large bitch, full of quality , standing on good legs and feet , and but for her large ears would be difficult to beat in any competition ~a bitch possessed of first-class characteristics; her faults, few, being a long way overbalanced by her good qualities .
Alfgar [VD’ 3rd litter Orlando or Hotspur / Wunna] ~ he is not a large dog , but possesses fair size , and except for a slight want of length is very symmetrical . His worst faults are his over large ears and full eyes but his hind-quarters are a credit to his sire ~ he is on the small scale , with fine legs and feet , fair skull and muzzle , but too full in eye , with badly carried ears ~ a moderate specimen only , but has some good points ; his full eye and small bone are against him , whilst a slight dish up in fore face spoils his expression .
Edda [Alfgar’sis] ~ a sweet bitch of very symmetrical form , and possessing what is now a very rare point in Mastiffs , a dark hazel eye ; in skull and muzzle she is good , ears well carried and of the right size and colour , good in body , legs and feet , but she would be improved by more bone ~ she was out of form , especially weak in thighs and quarters ; her head is very typical and true in all points , but her want of muscle and condition should her put back .
Champion Jack Thyr [Orlando / Lady Canute ] ~ a dog of great power , and possesses a good formation of skull and muzzle squarely modelled ; he is exceedingly strong in foreface , and very powerful in underjaw ; his head is equally good , whether viewed in front or profile ; his ears are well carried , but he would be much improved by a darker eye , more colour of mask , and a little more wrinkle over the forehead ; age may however , improve the last point . In bone , body , legs and feet he is good , and he walks very squarely , although he turns one foot a little when standing still . His condition of coat was bad , which detracted a little from his appearance , but his general Mastiff character and general all-round points carried him to the front of this class very easily ~ in good trim , is a very good all-round Mastiff, especially strong in front of the eyes , well shaped in skull , with good body and legs , and he moves in good style . He is mealy in colour of mark, and rather light in eye ~ a very square , well-built dog , with large bone , and well formed skull.
Lady Dorothy [Edda’ sis] ~ showed herself very badly , carrying her ears at the top of her skull , and standing if her forelegs were very weak , otherwise a very near thing with Gerda . Orlando II [Orlando ex Hertha ]~ is a very massive dog for his age , with large skull , immense chest , and good forelegs , not good in his hind-quarters , and moves badly ~ has a grand skull frontispiece , with heavy bone , but appears to inherit the weakness of his sire, Orlando, in his hind-quarters.
Alonso [Jack Thyr’ brother] ~ good type of dog , but he moved badly , and was shown in wretched condition , having every appearance of mange , for which he afterwards was turned out of the show ~ a finely grown dog , since the judging been sold to Mr Moore of Boston U.S.A.
Fjoldswieder [Jack Thyr : Fjorda ] ~ what a name~ is a very fine , large , long dog , one of Jack Thyr’ best , but not to be placed in the front rank .
American Ch Beaufort' Black Prince' greatest match was at Crufts 1896 against that formidable brindle ch Peter Piper , the latter ultimately being the winner under judge Henry George Woolmore , Peter Piper' breeder who bred a/o also ch Crown Prince ...
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:46 PM||Reply with quote #14 |
Accurate historical descriptions of subtle color of coats are a rather ‘tricky’ matter because of the then personal interpretations, revealed by quite a number of discussions re the exact wording concerning concerning specific specimens . Even the very well-known fawn ch Crown Prince was described as being a red by a contributor of ‘Our Dogs’ Mastiff Mems , early 1930s , which is certainly untrue based upon a/o many color references given by his judge reports .
The Kennel Club Stud Books give no mention re color of Governor , but the extensive Ormonde pedigree , published by Chas E Bunn , Peoria , Illinois , gives ‘red fawn’ for Governor . Scrutinizing this specific pedigree from its very beginning , namely Robinson’ Bold without color code & the ‘brindle’ Thompson’ Rose , both born around approx. 1818 , there are quite a few ancestors who were described as red fawn or red smut .
Firstly , Waterton’ Tiger , also born around 1818 , an upstanding ‘red fawn’ animal , procured in Ireland with cropped ears and bobtailed , standing 34 inches at the shoulder and much of the boarhound in appearance . His owner , Squire Charles Waterton (1782-1865) , was an eccentric travellist and pioneering naturalist who explored the tropical forests of South America [a/o British Guyana] and observed the richness of their natural history . Afterwards he returned to his home in Yorkshire at Walton Hall near Sandel , Wakefield , where he then set about managing his estate for forty years as a protected environment for wildlife and is thought as the world's first nature reserve . It was supposed by Kirklees’ gamekeeper John Crabtree that Waterton’ Tiger was a descendant of the strain of Lord Altamont [ John Denis Browne 1756 –1809 , Westport , Mayo ~ Ireland ] who seems to have had two distinct kinds , one Greyhound-like, and the other Mastiff shaped , smooth coated , and marked with dark patches on white .
Secondly , Thompson’ Dorah , Waterton’ Tiger’ great grandaughter , described as ‘red fawn’ , was a f5 ancestor to Governor .
Thirdly , the important ‘light brindle’ Bill George’ Tiger , born 1859 , was sired/grandsired by red fawns , respectively Sir Titus Salt’ Lion & Armitage’ Lion .
Finally , Lord Waldegrave’ Couchez , described as ‘red smut , imported from Mount St Bernard’ .
MB Wynn mentioned hereby that the Alpine Couchez , imported approx. 1839 by the London’ dog dealer Geo. White ∼ ‘had a cross of the Spanish Bulldog blood in his veins , however his blood enters into the most of the present day Mastiffs , as he was the 2nd cross Mr Lukey made .’
Dog fighting was a Sunday morning amusement among certain noble patrons who believed less in the Homilies of St Chrysostom , for they delighted to pit other dogs against the redoutable Couchez , who although often much smaller than his antagonists , was always victorious ; as a fighting dog he was simply [to use the language of Shakespeare] unmatchable ~ sic MB Wynn p. 164 .
at left ~ Spanish Bulldog ; at right ~ a part of a painting (d 1853) by Castellano, figuring also this 'Spanish Bulldog' like specimen .
Couchez aka Turk [height 30 i weight 130 lbs] owned by Lord George Edward Waldegrave , 7th Earl [1816-1846] , who resided at Walpole’ Strawberry Hill Twickenham , 20 miles South West of London . once the residence of Horace Walpole [1717-1797] , writer & antiquarian , and being the youngest son of England’ longest-ruling Prime Minister , Robert Walpole .
After his schooling at Eton & Cambridge , he traveled on the Continent for two years with Thomas Gray , returning to take a seat in Parliament . In 1747 , Walpole bought a house near Twickenham which over the course of his life , he turned into a fantastic neo-Gothic castle called Strawberry Hill. There he housed one of the most extensive and eclectic collections of art in England , and set up a small private press , publishing works by Gray , Joseph Spence , Hannah More , and others . Horace Walpole is best known for writing the first Gothic novel ‘ The castle of Otranto’  .
About the Spanish Bulldogs one can find in the history of the English Bulldog that in the 1870ties ‘The Bulldog Club Inc.’ was established in order to save the pot-house dog from gradual extinction as well as from the Spanish Bulldog 'threat' .
It was under the generalship of Mr Frank Adcock that there was a fancy to enlarge the Bulldog from its average size to one of a weight of 100 to 120 lbs by using the Spanish Bulldog . One can get an impression of this extinct breed through a painting of Castellano  , which shows a Molossus type of dog in the company of Spanish aristocracy .
Within this general scope of 'foreign breeds' interests by London’ residents , one can imagine the bloom into the dog breeding of the day . This was certainly the case when they could supply the doggy people some fresh , exotic and exuberant cynological creatures as par example the Spanish Bulldog . London became also the centre of Mastiff breeding , where also a relevant number of dog dealers were involved in Mastiff breeding , maybe crossing the old native breed with the Spanish breed in order to create a more characteristic face , accomodating the exaggerating folie of the day .
In 1840 Bill George , London dog dealer , imported a brindle pied marked Spanish Bulldog which he named 'Big headed Billy' . Around 1870 several Spanish Bulldogs were imported by a/o Bill George' acquaintance , Mr Adcock ; these male specimens were around 90 lbs , height 22i , girth of skull 22i & described as very muscular with powerful shoulders & neck , broad & deep chest , large feet , head with cropped ears , lots of wrinkles, deep stop, undershot muzzle with deep flews .
Frank Adcock of Shevington Hall ∼Wigan [solicitor , well-known to his skill , thorough knowledge and excellent judgement of the Bulldog] , mailed a description of the Mastiff , anno 1800 , to the Reverend Wynn ∼ ‘ Of a very powerful make , 28 to 30 inches high , ... colour tanned or brindled , with a black muzzle , a dark spot over each eye, and these colours varied with white‘ . It seems that Mr Adcock wanted to believe that those pied bald markings were inherent to the 'pure' old English Mastiff type .
That color description ‘tanned’ or tawny was also used by C Court Rice to describe ch Elgiva’ sire Ethelred , born 1892 , in Our Dogs Mastiff Mems , March 10 , 1933 - ‘ He was a truly magnificent animal , big , strong , sound , and a good winner , but it must be admitted he was a deep red or tawny with dark shadings , apart from the orthodox black mask , and had a coat of unorthodox length , especially on forequarters and thighs . Whence did these attributes come ? Could they not have been atavism to the St Bernard ? Yours , etc. Sydney , New South Wales .
Note - The owner of Ethelred , W Norman Higgs is Mrs Betty Baxter' grandad !
Note – About the time of Ethelred’ birth , Dr Geo Inman & his associate Mr Ben Walmsley did an outcross to improve their St Bernard strain of Bowden , using (most probably and even sure) Captain Leonard Piddocke’ grand brindle ch Ogilvie , sired by Rev van Doorne’ Orlando II . It became a great success as in the early XXth century the Bowden’ were almost invincible in the show ring .
The linguistic definition of ‘tawny’ isn’t quite obvious but rather plural ; an anthology .... a pale orange brown , a warm sandy color vide ‘the lion's tawny coat’ , a dark yellowish or dull yellowish-brown , a shade of brown tinged with yellow , dull yellowish brown .
So , IMO , it’s rather a matter of subjective comprehension re systematization of subtle color patterns . On the face of it , one can superficially consider the color of some breed specimens as brownish , but most breed adepts don’t use that description due to the rather plural meaning of the wording ‘brown’ .
One also need to consider that in the days when the standard became progressively developed , there seems to have been a constant thrive to expel details which were common in a/o the St Bernard who was originally described by the wordings – ‘red , brown , mahogany , orange , &c ‘.
Re the earliest ‘pedigreed’ origin of apricot into our breed , one should thus suggest it was Waterton’ Tiger , b approx. 1818 , being quite definitely present into the stock of not only Thomas HV Lukey but also into that of James Wigglesworth Thompson , his breeders’ associate fromYorkshire .
For those Americans planning a historical breed crusade a recent image of the Belgian Reverend HKE van Doorne’ life work at Brixton , London ...
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:52 PM||Reply with quote #15 |
Freely guess you don’t care , but my lyrical heart is bleeding because even in the 1860s a Tiger wasn’t a Tiger !
The first Kennel Club Stud Book edition (in 1873) listed not less than 123 Mastiff specimens , a/o Bill George’ Tiger whose description was by far the most extensive of all , even more than ch Turk ; truth commands to mention that the KCSB of 1877 contained an even wider pedigree of the latter .`
At stud , Bill George’ Tiger not only sired the all time first breed champion , Mr Edgar Hanbury’ Duchess but also sired Wolf KCSB No 2358 who grandsired the next Hanbury’ champions , Queen & Rajah , parents to the historical well established ch Wolsey . Bill George’ Tiger great grandsired also THV Lukey’ ch Beauty and her brother Baron , who grandsired ch Rajah’ son ch The Shah who on his turn double * grandsired ch Crown Prince , his better balanced brother , ch Prince Regent . * In case ch The Emperor was the natural sire of them instead of ch Rajah’ grandson Young Prince , as many contemporary breed connoisseurs definitely suggested .
Contemplating about this fine line up without any historical equals , one can , IMO , state that Bill George was indeed a superior stud pillar of early Mastiff pedigree breeding , nevertheless he was described by MB Wynn as – ‘crooked in his legs and slack in loin , both defects probably owing to bad rearing , as his immediate progenitors were very good in both respects (although some of Mr lukey’ old strains were , Mr Thompson informed me , slack in loin , and very weak and crooked in their legs) and Tiger’ stock , although one or two were a little slack in loin , were very straight in the legs , and also very active animals . Lord Kingsdown’ Rufus ( note – a Bill George’ Tiger son ) could hump a five barred gate when past eight years old and Captain , another son of Bill George’ Tiger’ was one of the fastest and most determined cat killers of any breed I have seen . Bruin , another son of Tiger’ , was a remarkably muscular and symmetrical animal with vast bonz , and splendid limbs Four sons of Tiger’ , out of different bitches , died in my possession , all being old dogs , and had the best of limbs , and were very active up to the last .’ MB Wynn also wrote that – ‘Bill George himself , like many modern London breeders , was somewhat cramped for room , and having at times a number of dogs on the ground , his home reared puppies had not sufficiently liberty and exercice , the result beibg that this Mastiff breeding operations were anything but satisfactory , I believe . Wolf , Phillis , Bruin , Rufus , and Branch were very unoform in type . The most striking characteristics of the Tiger line were magnificent head , jet black ears and muzzles , generally stone fawn with the dark clouded or sooty back , showing the brindle blood of their ancestry , ears medium size , but rather inclined to be too large and thick , coat hard and fine .’
That Mr Edgar Hanbury , a highly regarded breed specialist judge from the early days of dog showing until the 1880ties , had chosen Bill George’ Tiger , seems not to have been a mere accident because the man was in-the-know and most probably looked at a stud , well linebred throughout quite some generations , decently based on the strains of the two most prominent breeders of the 1840s & 1850s , the ‘breed associates’ , THV Lukey of Morden , London & James Wigglesworth Thompson of Halifax , Yorkshire .
Another interesting detail is that Bill George’ Tiger was a full cousin to that other stud pillar bred by JW Thompon , that famous Cautley’ Quaker who’s behind ch Turk along paternal (f3) & maternal (f4) line .
Studying Ormonde’ enormous pedigree , on can presume that the nucleus of ‘recorded’ early Mastiff breeding must have been situated in the North of England , confirmed by Stonehenge' words ∼ ‘the good English Mastiffs have all come from Lancashire , Cheshire & the North of England , where some years ago they were still in considerable request for guarding large bleaching grounds‘.
An example a fortiori was ‘Cautley’ Quaker’ bred by a breeder from Yorkshire [North of England] . Malcolm Bush Wynn' History of The Mastiff mentions ~ ‘Quaker [bred by James Wigglesworth Thompson , Halifax Yorkshire] carried all before him at the Birmingham show and a portrait of him appeared in the Illustrated London News [December 1861] being among a group of prize dogs , drawn by Harrison Weir , who very cleverly, by way of contrast , placed the prize bloodhound by his side . Instructive talent of this sort should be paid his due .
The drawing shows that Quaker carried his ears partially erect , a characteristic of the true old English Mastiff as shown in Bewick' cuts .’ Quaker was sold as a puppy to Henry Cautley of Bramley near Leeds and later on obtained the sobriquet of 'champion of England' .
Note - George Fox founded the Society of Friends or Quakers , a variant of Puritanism, which carried through strongly on the Puritan concern for a Spirit-mediated encounter between God and man who literally 'trembles' at the word of God , a decidedly different religious experience opposite other Puritan groups a/o the Congregationalists with Sir Titus Salt as a prominent member .
It could be possible that Mr James Wigglesworth Thompson , who was seemingly on friendly terms with the wealthy manufacturer Sir Titus Salt , named this dog 'Quaker' as a kind of nickname ; by the way , Edgar Hanbury and Mark Beaufoy , leading Mastiff breeders of the Victorian era , both descended from Quaker families .
James Wigglesworth Thompson [1818-1875] bred as already stated also another very renowned stud pillar , the brindle Bill George' Tiger sired by the red fawn Lion owned by Sir Titus Salt who lived in 'Crownest' , Lightcliffe nearby Brighouse , only some miles removed from James Thompson' residence and also in the close nearby of Kirklees Hall , the living place of Sir George Armytage whose Lion sired Sir Titus Salt' Lion .
Sir Titus Salt [1803-1876] was a wool stapler who discovered the fabulous qualities of the 'alpaca' fibre ; later on alpaca garments were found in the finest fashion houses all over the world . By the mid 19th century his massive Salts Mill was the leading edge of textile industry , employing more than 3000 people . He was a leading member of the West Riding Congregationalism and also a philanthropist who ordered to build a model manufacturing town , called Saltaire , which comprised 900 houses , stores , parks , playgrounds , schools , almshouses for older people and a hospital . He advocated a severe discipline but he refused to have a police office in the village , otherwise pubs were forbidden .
Malcolm B. Wynn’ ' The History of The Mastiff ' mentioned ∼ 'The Lancashire cloth Mills were places where Mastiffs were kept in considerable numbers both for fighting among each other and as watch dogs .' So it could be possible that also Salts Mill , some 20 miles away from Lancashire , also housed a Mastiff crew …
Sir Titus Salt was also Member of Parliament from 1859 until 1861 , so it could be he regularly resided in London where he could have contacted Bill George , a very well known dealer of quality dogs . In 1876 the big industrial city Bradford gave Sir Titus Salt a civic funeral ; the procession was watched by more than 100.000 people .
Another Yorkshire man who kept Mastiffs at that period was Mr Holdsworth of Ashdale Hall , near Elland ; he was James Wigglesworth Thompson’ relative by marriage who owned another Lion who was mated to Duchess , a bitch found in a fox trap by the Kirklees' gamekeeper John Crabtree .
Looking at images of those breed forebears long gone by , they definitely do not match in quality the actual Mastiff bests , cfr Miss World in the Neanderthal Dark Ages , but it was from these kinds of dogs the today Mastiff owes his multi-colored pedigreed origin , a history of splendor (in goods & bads) which many fanciers of other breeds envy us .
Hope that hereby our ‘ Tiger ’ is rehabilitated in some suggestive way ...
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 04:56 PM||Reply with quote #16 |
MW Wynn seems to have been rather opportunistic in making his ‘point’ on a scala of matters re Mastiff purity , i.e. favouring with dedication the King line upon which his own strain was built and which somtimes featured those mentioned characteristics , as a/o his white blazed champion Peeress .
Indeed , there were also non-erect examples in pre-pedigree times as a/o the Mastiff of the Duke of Hamilton , painted by Sawrey Gilpin ( XVIIIth c.) but as you know he wasn’t unicolored , seemingly white basic coat covered with dark (black ?) plates , while the Mastiff of King Charles I ( XVIIth c.) shows a white blaze ; Abraham Rees’ Quadrupeds ( 1810) displays a Mastiff , with a white blaze , muzzle running further to an even white breast and white socks ; Edward Jesse’ Anecdotes of Dogs shows a pied bald Mastiff with a curled tail .
So there are quite a number of examples in old canine literature , also written descriptions , quite opposite your statement re ‘true’ Mastiff blood .
In those pedigreeless days dogs were , IMO , mostly bred for function and/or individual taste and breeds weren’t separated distinctively by well-known respective standards , so giving much room for interpretation all kind re labelling those dogs within the respective breed types .
It’s my belief , quite unpopular , that the canine population was at some height a constant melting pot of different kindry . Carolus Linneaus (XVIIIth c.) , the designer of modern plant- & animal classification , listed the Mastiff as Canis Anglicus (bellicosus) , the Bulldog as Canis Molossus , the Boarhound as Canis Fuillus , &c .
As far as I know , there wasn't a XVIIIth or early XIXth c. Babylonian look-a-like kind of dog and if the a correct OEMC Mastiff shows some similarities , it’s , IMO , only the human hand of selective breeding towards points of standard , that ‘created’ those phenotypes , not by breeding like-to-like but by breeding in complementing way using different kinds which each in their own way attributed a piece to the OEMC puzzle , a/o Wolfhounds , Deerhounds & Boarhounds for height , Bloodhounds for wrinkle , Alpine Mastiffs for bone & size , Bulldogs for squareness in head , &c .
Breed purists as a/o Harry de Spencer Kingdon were frustrated by this sort of mongrolism and he became the champion of the Lyme Hall strain which he considered as being pure since centuries alike the rank of nobility of its owners , but couldn’t hold his own and became a mere outsider in the Mastiff show arena , dominated by intermixed phenotypes approaching the breed standard in a more appropriate way as also was the case in a lesser degree in the after-war periods . And after all , IMO , the ancient Bulldog has contributed much to the ‘beauté’ of the modern Mastiff , and most probably also to other Molosser breeds , no shame on that !
Do you think that 'brown' Mastiffs can enhance the eye catching appeal of our breed ?
What you say ,
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:02 PM||Reply with quote #17 |
There always were , are , and shall exist different views re breed standard matters and that’s quite right ; for the sake of the breed it’s important to compare opinions or angles of view based upon arguments all kind .
Where got Mr Edmund Gifford his mustard from ?
Reading breed history , one cannot deny Mr Oliver ‘ controversiality . The KC Crystal Palace show , October 1927 , was the first KCSB entry of a Hellingly owned Mastiff where their Wantley Joy , bred by Henry Young , got a 3rd prize in Limit bitches ; the bitch cc was for ch Woden’ daughter ch Ursula , bred by Miss Ianthe Bell .
Less than three years later , the Mastiff Breeders Association was formed by Mr & Mrs Oliver . In the meanwhile their foundation brood ch Wantley Joy got seven cc’s and Joseph , but their foundation stud achieved a palmares of six challenge awards while their mutual daughters Hellingly Joy & Honor got respectively two and one tickets .
The male show challengers were ch Westcroft Blaise’ brother ch Bulger (4) , ch Duke’ son ch Benvolio (3) , Cleveland Premier (3) , ch Arolite (2) , ch Uther Penarvon (2) , and four others each one cc , namely ch Woden , chHavengore Bill , ch Duke’ brother ch Prince & ch Westcroft Blaise’ son Benton Adonis ; the female show challengers were the Menai’ Yosemite (2) , her daughter Juno (2) , Juno’ niece Stella (1) , the Woden’ daughters Ursula (2) , Helga (2) , Lady Here (1) , ch Westcroft Blaise’ daughters Dervot Dawn (2) & Hardingham Lady Barbara (1) , and finally ch Cleveland Premier’ niece Benton Joan (1) .
Before trying to give some relief on the mustard matter , firstly some relevant quotes of his article published in the Kennel Gazette , November 1930 .
‘At the Crystal Palace Shows during the five years from 1871 to 1875 , an average of 76 dogs was benched each year , showing that at that period Mastiffs were the backbone of the shows , and much more important than any other large breed ‘
‘We find that in 1883 , the year in which the Old English Mastiff Club was formed , 219 Mastiffs were registered , although the decline in the popularity of the breed has already commenced . This total has never since been equalled , and it was recorded at a date before registration became a compulsory preliminary to exhibition .’
‘There can be little doubt that the decline may be attributed largely to lack of attention to soundness in the past . It is useless to attempt to built on unsouns foundations . The average man who desires to keep a big dog , wants a sound active animal , with four good legs and feet , and shapely hind quarters . He is not attracted by a fat and lazy unsound dog , and cares little for specialised head points .’
The standard description itself was well thought out , and , on the whole , admirably drafted . It does great credit to its authors , Dr J Sidney Turner , the Reverend W Mellor , and Mr W K Taunton . The numerical value of points was invented in 1890 . Evidently those should be used with the greatest caution . If they were adhered to rigidly and unsound monstrosity , devoid of all type and quality , might putstrip all competitors .’
‘Fortunately , there are some signs of improvement in Mastiffs in the direction of soundness , though much more is still to be desired . Straight hocks and stifles , and flat sides , are still apt to be the rule than the exception . Burdensome hindquarters , cow hocks , goose rumps , and ungainly tails are far too commonly met with .’
‘ In considering the maintenance and improvement of type , it is possible to pay attention too much attention to the old dogs of thirty or more years ago . The type was then much more uniform than at present , because the older breeders better understood the value of ood blood , and there was little crossing .’
‘ For instance , one fetish which to-day would be sternly discouraged is the search for the too short head and muzzle , which contributes to unsound hindquarters , though , of course , too long a muzzle is equally objectionable . We want neither the pig face nor the fiddle face ; a just medium should be aimed at . ‘
‘ Height has become of even more importance since the Bull Mastiff was erected as a separate breed . It is a common error in many minds that the Mastiff should be low on the leg . We do not want a leggy animal , but there should be just proportion of height combined with great length of body to secure symmetry .’
Two years later he wrote another article in the Kennel Gazette (December 1932) . Some excerpts –
‘ At one time , about the irst ten years of the present century , some blamed fanciers for giving preference to the brindle colour , wich was then in the ascendant , and surmized that the diminution of interest was largely due to this cause , as the brindle colour would never be popular with the public .’
‘ I cannot help feeling that the standard description and numerical scale of points have in themselves been an important contributory factor .’
‘ I feel that judges and breeders would be greatly assisted if there were added to the standard description , a list of faults indicating those that should be regarded as disqualifications , and those which should be considered as less serious . For a great deal of the standard description itself I have nothing but approval , but it seems to me to require reconsideration , and in some particulars amplification , in others reasonable amendment .’
‘ What is the use of a watch dog which can run no faster than a child and is exhausted within fifty yards ? Is not the dog that can spring upon a felonious intruder more formidable than one , however massive , which can only painfully rear itself up on it hind legs ?
‘ If the 1:2 muzzle/skull ratio is intended as a maximum it appears to me simply fantastic ; if it is intended as an average I am satisfied that more latitude is required . ‘
‘ I would suggest a proportion 6:10 muzzle/skull .’
‘ Next the excessive cult of foreface has distracted the attention of breeders from the enormous importance of obtaining correct expression . It is dignity , and ot impudence , which is looked in the Mastiff , and the enlarged pug desired does not fulfil what both public taste and expert canine opinion will require , if the breed is ever again to take the place which it should hold in the canine world .’
‘ I am sorry to see that at some recent shows animals , underhung like the roof of a house , dish-faced , with a definite lay-back of the muzzle , have been favoured in the show ring in spite of lack of size and substance .’
‘ Another mistake no doubt unintentionally made in the 1883 description was the extended latitude accorded to the undershot jaw . The Old English Mastiff was level mouthed , not underhung .’
‘ The undershot mouth deceives the eye with a false impression of squareness . In most cases the underjaw , instead of being wide and square , has a tendency to be semi-circular , and the lower canines being brought too far forward , and closing too far in front of the upper canines , causes a kind of puffing of the upperlip , thus making the muzzle appear squarer than it really is . An underhung mouth is particularly inappropriate in a dog whose characteristics are supposed to be power and strength without ferocity and vindictiveness ; it tends to destroy the true Mastiff expression and causes to be or appear to be dish-faced .’
‘ Squareness of face is no doubt desired , but this should be subordinate to the look of good-natured grandeur , allied to strength and courage .’
‘ The eyes should be small and wide apart , rather deep sunk , not so much in the socket as in the folds of skin from the eyebrows , with close fitting eyelids , not showing the haw nor triangular as in the hound .’
‘ There should be no flues , or wrinkle , on the cheeks , which should be well developed with the maxillary muscles standing out boldly .’
‘ If the standard is to be a real guide to judges some differences between male and female type should be given . The sexual characteristics in Mastiffs are well marked . They are by no means exhausted by difference in size and weight .’
Later on he wrote a quite extensive historical article illustrated by following specimens – Miss Hales’ ch Lion b 1866 and his nephew ch Turk b 1867 , ch Green’ Monarch’ b 1871 and his son Mark Beaufoy’ Nero b 1875 , ch The Shah b 1873 , ch Beaufort’ progeny Ilford Lady Coleus b 1887 and ch Beaufort’ Black Prince b 1890 , Eldee’ Duke b 1892 & the brindle Black Peter b 1895 , the brindle ch Lidgett Viscount b 1911 , ch The Scarlet Pimpernel b 1913 and his younger sis ch Young Mary Bull b 1914 , ch (Hellingly) Joseph b 1925 and the brindle ch Hellingly Cardinal b 1930 , in a way of comparison together with the statue of Molossus on the same page .
It’s no fact but rather one seems to be inclined these examples could be somehow representative re Mr Oliver’ flavors ; it is quite odd , Mr Oliver being a brindle fancier , the article doesn’t figure illustrations of famous brindles as ch Wolsey , his grandson ch Cardinal , ch Ogilvie or his grandsons ch Peter Piper & ch Marksman but also other historical specimens are lacking , as a/o ch Beau and his son Beaufort , ch Crown Prince and his very succesful F1 progeny or even grand contemporary non-Hellingly examples .
Reading between the sentences , one could , IMO , get the impression that Mr Oliver would copy the general type of top winning specimens during the early 1870s , considered by Mr Oliver as thé heyday for the breed with examples as Miss Hales’ ch Lion , his nephew ch Turk , ch Turk’ nephew ch Briton and that very large ch Green’ Monarch . It were those dogs who got the champion prizes at those mentioned Crystal Palace’ shows from 1871 to 1875 , all quite resembling in type , somewhat houndy on the leg and rather pale in head requisites but maybe oozing Mr Oliver’ idea about the breed – ‘ good-natured grandeur ‘ , exemplified by their height at shoulder and dignity in the face .
Nevertheless , it isn’ proven that this historical period ( 1871-1875 ) was characteristed by a much higher degree of soundness opposite the following times , highlighted by the more stocky type representants of the Crown Prince - & Beau strains .
Also already mentioned in a former post it was Stonehenge who remarked in his book ‘ The Dogs of the British Islands ‘ , published in 1878 ~ ‘ Mastiffs were by no means a breed of handsome dogs , for we read that the feet were often weak and flat , the legs small in bone and bend at the knees , and that they frequently had cat-hams , and to gallop was quite beyond their power ‘ .
Ch Turk’ hindquarters weren’t examples of great power as being rather poorly muscled in second thighs and his most famous son at stud , Big Ben , wasn’t shown due to lameness . MB Wynn mentioned that Ch Turk’ dam Hilda (Miss Hales ch Lion’ sis) – ‘was a long bodied , large bitch , but very poor in head , light bone , and decidly leggy .
Miss Hales’ ch Lion’ photograph as an older dog , in standing position , displays rather a slackness in his hollowed loin , being high at the rear and obviously straight in stifles and hocks ( vide No 21 p 96 of Henry Webb’ Dogs , 1873 , palmares of 21 , owned by Miss Hales , is given on p 287 ) , altogether displaying a stature of 'grandeur' but , IMO , not even a sounder Mastiff than ch Crown Prince !
There seems to exist only photograph (vide Dr JS Turner’ Kennel Club Encyclopaedia) of another famous dog of that era , ch Green’ Monarch’ , but unfortunately in a lying position , being a good boned specimen , having rather some more depth in head opposite the older ch Turk , but seemingly also long legged . An image in standing position could have given some relief re his soundness , especially as his son , Mark Beaufoy’ ch Nero , born 1875 , seemed to have been a quite sound animal in respect to his contemporaries .
Disappointedly , no ‘Brown’ named Mastiff breeders but the actual British Prime Minster is your namesake , Gordon Brown . Hope this satisfies your pride .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:06 PM||Reply with quote #18 |
Coming back to what Mr Oliver called ‘ the excessive cult of foreface ‘ and his reference to ‘ impudent pugginess ‘ , it is of interest to scrutinize the then breed show population in search of those ‘ recent shows animals , underhung like the roof of a house , dish-faced , with a definite lay-back of the muzzle , have been favoured in the show ring in spite of lack of size and substance ’ and his statement that the undershot mouth , causing a puffing of the upperlip , should suggest ferocity & vindictiveness (December 1932) .
Who were those meant Mastiffs ? Without much doubt , one can presume that the main subjects of Mr Oliver’ attack were Mrs Lucy Scheerboom’ successful Havengore Bill and Miss Ianthe Bell’ Woden , his daughters and great grandson Uther Penarvon .
Havengore Bill was out of Crescent Rowena , a brood mainly going back to the Cleveland stock of George Cook , also present in the Hellingly stock , but ‘complemented by a controversial grandam called Penkhull Lady . She was going back to grandsire Stapleford Pedro , brother to Pinxton Edward registered as a Mastiff under KCSB No 1354S ( Salisbury 1700J – 2 cc’s – ex Nuneaton Hector’ daughter Pinxton Pride ) , but also to Connie , unr. and to Stapleford Nance & Answorth Lion , both stated as Bull Mastiff .
Havengore Bill’ sire was ch Master Beowulf , brother to the brindle ch Bricket Hood , both sired by Beowulf ( a sound brindle out of ch Hazlemere Ronald’ daughter Berenice ) out of Jessica ( King of North x Connie unr’ daughter Marwood Pride ) .
Mr Wm Hunter Johnston , one of the first OEMC members in 1883 , wrote – ‘Havengore Bill , 14 months old , came nearer to my ideal of what a Mastiff should be than any other that was shown ( note - a/o ch Cleveland Premier , King Agrippa’ brother Sir Thomas & ch Menai Yosemite’ brother Menai Torquil ) ; a beautiful moulded head with small well carried ears and a good deep square muzzle ; sound legs ; plenty of bone, and stands well ; his only weak point is a curious twist in the tail which detracts somewhat from his appearance when viewed stern on ; this dog carries me back to the breed’ palmy days of the 1880s , for he reminded me so much of the late Mr Mark beaufoy’ famous Beau , who walked off with many a win in the Champion classes of that period .
Mr J G Joice , ch Arolite’ breeder , judged him some months later and mentioned – ‘Havengore Bill , a dog I liked very much , possessing a good head , body , legs and feet , and a grand mover ‘ Note – On this occasion he got the award against two Ashenhurst Cedric’ son Menai Anglesea ( out of ch Menai Yosemite) and King Agrippa ( out of ch King Baldur’ Dervot Diana ) .
Mr W N Higgs , Mrs Betty Baxter’ granddad , - ‘ Havengore Bll was suffering from the resultv of an accident , so I will dismiss him with the remark that I consider him the most perfect headed Mastiff exhibited at Richmond , his , is the correct type ‘. His main show opponents that day were ch Woden , King Agrippa & ch Westcroft Blaise .
Mr Herbert Cook of Cleveland kennels at Crystal Palace 1927 – ‘Winners already noted , but of the others Havengore Bill is worthy of mention ; he was undoubtedly the best type of dog present , but owing to a most unfortunate accident he was quite a cripple in the ring .’ The winners were King Agrippa , ch Arolite and Menai Anglesea .
Havengore Bill recovered from the results of his accident and was made up at Manchester 1928 under judge A J Thorpe , Blondin’ breeder , beating King Agrippa & Menai Anglesea .
Woden’ first KCSB entry , 16 months old , got a 3rd Open prize at Ranelagh under W J Nichols , beaten by the champions Westcroft Blaise & Evans’ ch Prince ‘ brother Greenwood’ ch Duke who sired ch Benvolio .
Five months later he won the challenge award at the KC Alexandra Palace show under judge Wm Hunter Johnston beating ch Westcroft Blaise & ch Evans’ ch Prince’ brother Greenwood’ Duke . As remembered by Miss Bell’ associate Miss Barbara Blackstone , former OEMC Secretary , one of the attendants , the famous old Walter K Taunton , told the newbie Miss Ianthe Bell that Woden , ‘ although rather on the small side , was a very good and typical Mastiff ‘.
Woden’ second cc was awarded by W N Higgs , above King Agrippa & ch Westcroft Blaise and was finally made up at Darlington , July 1930 , under Guy Percifal Greenwood , leaving Ch Arolite’ son Satelite & Cleveland Premier’ son Hellingly Canute in second & third position .
Woden became a very important stud , being behind famous strains as Havengore ( along his daughter Deleval Gyda ) , Cleveland & Broomcourt ( along his son Cleveland Comedian ) , but he also sired two champion sisters , Ursula & Helga while their sis Lady Here became owned by the Olivers ; Lady Here got four reserve tickets , a/o at Crufts 1929 under Wm Hunter Johnston , beaten by ch Westcroft Blaise’ daughter Hardingham Lady Barbaran award , and got also a challenge award under Norman Walker Hall at Richmond , July 1930 .
Three top winning bitches coming from one litter ( sired by Woden ) was definitely an unicum in those days ; their dam Menai Victoria was sired by the well known stud ch Baldur , almost completely going back to the Cleveland stock , out of Cadwalader’ sis Pinxton Lady , sired by the Cleveland bred ‘Ashenhurst Duke’ out of Portia ( ch Weland , also coming down from Cleveland stock , out of King of North’ daughter Jessica out of Marwood Pride ( Stapleford Pedro x Connie , unr ) .
Ch Ursula , owned by Mrs Joseph Evans , Jersey Islands , and breeder of champions Prince & Duke , was the most successful , winning six challenge awards , under Hunter Johnston (2x) , Herbert Cook (2x) of Cleveland , Dr Aubrey Ireland and Guy Percifal Greenwood ;
Ch Helga , owned by her breeder Miss Bell , got her cc’s under Herbert Cook , G P Greenwood and .... yes , not less than Mrs E G Oliver herself , at Leeds , August 1930 ! I don’t know for sure if this decision was approved by her husband Edmund G Oliver ...
When Mr E G Oliver was speaking about ‘ underhung ‘ in top winning Mastiffs , one fairly can guess it was , IMO , in first instance meant to ch Woden’ great grandson , ch Uther Penarvon , born October 1929 , who got his first cc at 12 months old under Wm Hunter Johnston , his second at the following show , two months later , under Dr Aubrey Ireland , made up twelve months later on at Birmingham under Guy P Greenwood and finally winning at Crufts 1933 under Guy P Greenwood , at the fiftieth anniversary of the OEMC .
Ch Uther Penarvon , a full nephew to ch Havengore Christopher , sired one champion , Petronella out of a Havengore Bill’ daughter , namely ch Lady Turk’ sis Hermia and was also behind the last champion made up before the break out of WW II , Deleval Alftruda , his grandaughter .
Globalising the camp of judges , one can state that there was quite a consensus re breed type amongst Wm Hunter Johnston , Dr Aubrey Ireland , Guy Percifal Greenwood & J G Joice while W N Higgs progressively changed side into the direction of the Hellingly ‘ clan ‘ re awarding certificates ; it was Mr Edmund Gifford Oliver himself who wrote W N Higgs ‘ post mortem in 1938 .
Much has been said about the Bullmastiff influence , in particular during the early years after WW I ; an objective remark is that almost all available images of the then Bullmastiff specimens , extrapolated in ‘Roger of the Fens’ , display phenotypes ( in head and body ) which were quite different compared to the ‘ heavy typified‘ above mentioned Mastiff strains ; so regaining the required OEMC type wasn’t simple as that , i.e. using a Bullmastiff cross in order to rapidly become shorter , deeper heads matched by the necessary bulk in bodies , being convinced that is was rather the result of combining the last remains of former pre-war greatness , a/o the lines going back to ch Hazlemere Ronald , grandson to that grand brindle champion Marksman , first-class representant of the ‘ Ogilvie ‘ strain going back to oldtimers as a/o ch Orlando , bred by Dr J S Turner and owned by the Belgian reverend HKE Van Doorne .
Those dogs had the correct OEMC head requisites and most probably those breeders as Miss Bell & Mrs Scheerboom tried to reconstruct those features , nevertheless they used specimens who weren’t free of any ‘fresh’ Bullmastiff cross .
I do belief the version of an early common ancestral tree of the Mastiff - and Bulldog - ‘broad mouthed’ breeds , in times where small sized Mastiff kinds were quite alike big sized Bulldog kinds and that due to diversication based upon functions , as a/o bull-baiting , game keeping , guarding , &c . , both kinds diverged progressively from each other in phenotype and overall size .
But I do not belief that those BM post-war crosses were the main reason of different type opposite the more elegantly constructed Hellingly strain , but only a relatively small contribution within the whole historical spectrum re connection Mastiff versus Bulldog .
The differences were , IMO , definitely more due to specific ways of selecting their mates based upon knowledge of the old strains , which latently had behold or not their way of degree in ‘bullyness’ , an essential historical part of the Mastiff breed , whether one likes it or not .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:11 PM||Reply with quote #19 |
Ch Woden’ dam was out of Nell unr. sired by Collyhurst Squire ( see head study at left below ) who was out of Minerva , sis to Beowulf & Blackbery (see pic.s in former post) sired by Stapleford Pedro ; it is of interest to compare the heads of Collyhurst Squire versus Roger of the Fens in order to get an idea re Bull Mastiff influences during the early years after WW I .
Two famous pre-war lines were never blended , according to the Kennel Club Stud books , namely Hellingly and Havengore , but there was indeed one single Hellingly / Bell fusion .
Mr John Illingworth’ brindle champion Broomcourt Marcon , born March 1934 and bred by Ben Bennett out of ch Broomcourt Comedienne ( ch Woden’ son Cleveland Comedian x ch Hellingly Ajax’ sis Hellingly Arethrusa ) sired by ch Hellingly Cardinal , came from the only KCSB registered litter which was a blending between Hellingly blood and Miss Bell’ ch Woden .
Marcon was quite successful at shows ; at the age of eleven months , he already got a 3rd Open Class at Glasgow , under Mrs Tracey Oliver of Hellingly , a 3rd Limit under Sam Crabtree , and at the age of 22 months he gained his first certificate under Guy P Greenwood , owner of ch Duke , at Cruft’s 1936 he got a 3rd in Open Class, beaten by ch Havengore Christopher & ch Hellingly Joseph’ son Trelyon Dick and judge Sam Crabtree reported in Our Dogs – ‘ Broomcourt Marcon , a brindle , has size to recommend him , good bone , legs , and feet , big skull ; a little more depth of foreface and more wrinkle would improve him ‘ while the winner , the two years old ch Havengore Christopher was described as – ‘ A fawn with a black mask , good skull , nice length and squareness of foreface , very nice wrinkle and expression , rare body , ample bone , best of legs and feet , very good mover .’
Marcon got his second challenge award under the allrounder W J Nichols , runner up being his nephew ch Hellingly Marksman' son ch Hellingly Mark and was made up at Birmingham 1937 by Mrs Lucy Scheerboom of Havengore who preferred him above the ch Uther Penarvon’ sons Despot and Herga Pluto .
Marcon’ photograph was accompanied by the following text – ‘ This is an untouched photograph of the latest British champion dog . He won his certificates at both the Mastiff Breeders Association’ and the Old English Mastiff Club’ Show . He is not chance bred , as his sire is a champion , also his dam . His constitution is sound , he has never had a day’s illnes , and without doubt he is a dog the fancy should be ptoud of . His owner , Mr J Illingworth , is not a new starter in the breed , but one of the old school , who , when he takes a dog to a show , knows it is a good one . It was his champion Ashenhurst Cedric that did so much for the breed '.
Ch Deleval Alftruda was out of Goldhawk Imperator' grandaughter Deleval Richilda sired by ch Uther Penarvon' son The Druid out of ch Westcroft Blaise' daughter Lady Hildur . Alftruda got her tickets from Guy P Greenwood , Sam Crabtree & finally at the last pre-war show at Harrogate , September 1939 , from the allrounder S Warburton .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:16 PM||Reply with quote #20 |
Quite right , old breed books mention a/o the Bulldog who ruthlessly attacks before thinking , opposite our ‘contemplating’ self-confident Mastiff who restricts mostly his waste of guarding powers by only a huge imposing act of determinated grandeur .
The Jersey Bull next to the late Mrs Greenwell’ ch Moonsfield was probably bred by her friends , the Day family of Hollesley , a name which was almost even famous for their Mastiffs as their herd of pedigree attested Jersey cattle . Their daughter Hilary is still a Vice Chairman of the South West Jersey Club ( founded in 1946 ) , branch of the Jersey Cattle Society of the United Kingdom . The Jersey is a rather small breed , averaging a thousand pounds , but it produces more pounds of milk per pound of body weight than any other breed , far in excess of 13 times their bodyweight in milk each lactation . The Jersey has the richest milk with the highest percentage of butterfat and protein . An England visit without tea time with scones served with jam and of course deep yellow clotted Jersey cream isn’t imaginable . A délicatesse !
Coming back to ch Deleval Alftruda , bred by Mrs W M Edger of The Homestead , Langdon Hills , Essex , she is , as also ch Broomcourt Marcon , rather a mere ‘cross-out’ , i.e. no definite near relatives within her three generations pedigree , although further on some sameness in the paternal & maternal wing as Ashenhurst Duke & ch Havengore Bill .
Alftruda’ sire ‘ The Druid ‘ , born March 1931 , was sired by the well-known ch Uther Penarvon out of Miss Bell’ Lady Hildur , a daughter to ch Westcroft Blaise , ch Hellingly Ajax’ grandsire , Lady Hildur ‘ dam Lady Byron was sired by ch Ashenhurst Cedric’ sire Ashenhurst Duke out of Shirebrook Lady ( ch King Baldur x Penkhull Lady , the latter carrying also some Bull Mastiff blood ) .
The Druid was described by Chris Houlker as – ‘ Quite a nice two years old dog , except that his colour is not attractive ; big flat skull , ample bone , good body ‘ . Dr Aubrey Ireland mentioned – ‘ Big dog , good square muzzle and fairly big skull , not in best coat .’
His kennel companion , ch Lady Turk’ brother Dru , but also ch Uther Penarvon full cousin , was reported as ‘ rather shy in the ring ‘ and when one looks carefully at The Druid’ picture , on can see that he curls his tail between his legs , maybe accidentally or maybe also being rather shy , a feature which , could have cost him , although being of very nice breed type , high honours in the ring , because a real ‘ guard ‘ cannot be unself-confident , nor then or now ...
Alftruda’dam ‘ Deleval Richilda ‘ had following grandparents –
ch Ashenhurst Cedric’ son Goldhawk Imperator who sired ch Cinque Ports Michael . Note - Goldhawk Imperator ( see coloured head study ) was probably the subject of Arthur Wardle’ painting of 1930 , being inscribed ‘ To my friend Fred Hawkings ‘ , the Mastiff breeder of ‘ Goldhawk ’ , a/o Imperator , born January 1928 , one of his favourite house mates , so .
ch Havengore Christopher’ aunt Deleval Torfrida , who got a reserve cc at the KC Crystal Palace Show 1930 under Wm Hunter Johnston and two years later a 3rd prize in Open Class at Crufts under the same judge .
ch Cleveland Premier’ son Sioux Chief out of Premier’ niece Goldhawk Jasmine . Note - Sioux Chief was been reported in Our Dogs’ Mems to have been a very large dog , standing 33 inches and weighing 228 pounds .
Guy P Greenwood’ ch Benvolio’ sis Woodbrook Tess . Note - ch Benvolio was sired by ch Duke , a very typical brother of Mrs Joseph Evans’ ch Prince .
It is a pity that the last pre-war made up champion , Deleval Alftruda , didn’t have had any direct impact on the post-war breeding practices in England , although bloodlines from ch Ashenhurst Cedric has passed on through the Saxondales Brutus & Buster , f5 & f4 forebears of Heatherbelle Sterling Silver , who grandsired Weyacres Lincoln , but also a/o from ch Havengore Christopher and Sioux Chief along his US exported daughter Goldhawk Elsie .
As is also the notion that the Hellingly blood is only poorly represented within early post-war breeding . The splendid Hellingly group photograph from left to right gives a nice picture of the then different kinds of type –
ch Hellingly Joseph , bred by Henry Young , who sired four (or five) champions ;
Hellingly Hecuba , bred by Mrs Oliver , out of ch Wantley Joy sired by ch Hellingly Joseph ;
Hellingly Boadicea , bred by Mrs Oliver , out of Hellingly Almost sired by Guy P Greenwood’ ch Duke ;
Ch Wantley Joy , bred by Henry Young , produced one champion , Hellingly Joy ;
Lumbering Sheila , ch Westcroft Blaise’ daughter , gave champions Hellingly Ajax and Hellingly Mark , but was also grandam to three Cleveland champions , a/o Broomcourt Comedienne ;
Hellingly Lady Here , bred by Ianthe Bell , sis to champions Mrs Evans’ Ursula & Helga ;
Hellingly Almost , bred by Bob Thomas of Menai kennels , sis to champion Menai Juno & Menai Anglesea ;
Westcroft Flavia , bred by Norman Haigh of Ashenhurst kennels , out of Ashenhurst Duchess sired by her nephew ch Ashenhurst Cedric . Flavia produced ch Hellingly Josephine who on her turn gave birth to ch Hellingly Patricia .
An interesting letter by Mr E G Oliver about suspected influences of inbreeding onto colour matters and that within Goldhawk breedings of Mr Fred Hawkings , one of the Our Dogs’ correspondents . The lying dog on top is Sioux Chief .
That the Cleveland strain wasn't only in favour of the Olivers but also of their antagonist Miss Ianthe Bell is obviously a definite sign of the Cleveland' great breed value . This Son of Thunder , owned by Miss Bell was full brother to champion Cleveland Premier & Cleveland Chancellor , the latter being Hellingly Queen Bess' sire . Son of Thunder is never mentioned within the Kennel Club Stud Books , nevertheless he seems to have been a very balanced example of the then breed .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
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| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:21 PM||Reply with quote #21 |
Marcel, in most of the old pictures the Mastiffs legs are long and the daylight beneath them is so evident. In what period of time did the belief that the Mastiff's height go to a lower length of bone and what do you think influence our belief that too much leg is not good? Or is it mearly and interpretation issue between Breeders on balance?
| 02/24/08 at 02:15 PM ||#194|
This is an interesting question which can be answered in different ways , but my own opinion is that the pedigreed Mastiff history has shown a global fluctuation re breed emphasis , from ‘ height & noble grandeur ‘ ( the 1860s & 1870s ) to bony massiveness & bulky substance ( the following thirty years ) ; after World War I , the rebuilding passed off very difficultly , as the quality of breeding stock was averagely lowered a/o due to the use of many unregistered Mastiffs , especially bitches .
Note – It is a misunderstanding to consider each unr. parent as being of mongrel descent or of Bullmastiff descent , because in those times owners and also breeders were more often interested in showing the impressive males opposite their sex opponents who were mainly considered as ‘ backyard ’ broods . So in quite many cases , even well-bred bitches weren’t registered , also due to the considerable costs involved ; in the 1920s , the cost of a single Kennel Club registration was two shilling / six pence which seemingly was quite a bit when multiplied by the number of bitches within the litter .
In a Kennel Gazette of years gone by , it was Mr Raymond Boatwright , of Glynpedr kennels , who considered ch Young Mary Bull , that classical lady born 1914 , as one of best all time balanced bitches . Looking at her well-known picture , she offers not only a long body but deep all through , matching the 50/50 ratio body/air and unifying massiveness & grandeur by her specific way of majestic stature. She came through ch King Baldur into the main breed lines , but hasn’t given similar progeny as dam or grandam .
An important stud in those early post-war years was ch Weland , highly regarded because of also his noble lineage , but he presents rather a short body on proportionally long legs , features who are also determinable in his offspring while that fantastic daughter of ch Hazlemere Ronald , Berenice out of an unr. dam , seems to have been forebear of lines characterized by more length and depth of body ( see pic.s in former posts ) . It’s no surprize that Berenice is behind stud pillars as Miss Bell’ ch Woden & Mrs Scheerboom’ ch Havengore Bill , who both not only displayed the shorter bulky head but also matched this feature with , in those times , quite remarkable deep & decent long trunks .
As you certainly know , the last decade before World War II was dominated by the Hellingly’s ; as aforementioned , IMO , the Olivers were inspired by the leading Mastiffs of the early 1870s when the breed was at the pinnacle of its popularity , considering the number of show entries , and represented by majestic looking long legged specimens as Miss Hales’ ch Lion , ch Turk & Octavius Green’ Monarch , in an era without much concurrence of St Bernards or Great Danes , breeds which became much more popular than the Mastiff during the last decade of the XIXth century .
The strongest opponent in number of wins was Miss Bell and studying her stock , one has to admit that they were of definitively more massive three-dimensional built , but , IMO , somewhat wanting in that air of grandeur , a/o due to the somewhat ‘ underhung ‘ expression of a hardy ‘ docker ’ . Example par excellence , ch Uther Penarvon .
After WW II , most Hellingly stock was exported to the States and , IMO , posthumously the breed memento of Mr E G Oliver got ‘grounds’ , not in England but indeed in the States and ‘ inspired ‘ the American re-design of the standard through the influential wealthy Clarks of Altnacraig , who during the 1930s maintained a long contact with the highly regarded Olivers of Hellingly .
In England , two main players ‘ survived ‘ the war and having intensive ‘ learned ‘ knowledge about the old strains were in the capacity of rather fast reconstruction of their former stock , not the same in expression but in overall shape and definitely a run to bulkyness , with regard to soundness , emerged and became extrapolized in Weyacres Lincoln son’ Copenore Jason , not tall , but did much for ‘ three dimensional bodyment ‘ in Mastiffs .
The Copenore Jason lines became strongly intermixed and having much breed specialists on shows , one can state that the outcome became obvious ; of course there were longer legged opponents as a/o along ch Buckhall Micawber & his son ch Parcwood Bear , fancied by a dedicated part of the fancy , but , IMO , it were the Copenore / Havengore / Hollesley who hold the flag of the breed .
Nowadays , it seems that the Hollesley strain is more present in particular American kennels and I cannot find any English kennel who did the same on these level(s). The result is that although there are actually very nice massive Mastiffs in England but in quite some cases they do not give that overall soundness , i.e. displaying high rears and eventually also dippy in backs , while the before mentioned Hollesley linebreeding procedures in the States give the same massiveness in a sound built.
Of course every dedicated breeder has his purpose and knows his future plans , but still it is good to remember that trespassing certain borders of massiveness cannot not be done without losing ground on soundness and health .
The standard description of the body is a/o - ‘massive’ while on the other hand the description of the chest remarks a/o - ‘girth should be one third more than the height at the shoulder’. One often get the impression in order to obtain that mentioned ‘massiveness’, a lot of show winning Mastiffs display rather - ‘girth should be at least one third more than the height at the shoulder’ ; a number of measurements [a/o champion Orlando, born 1882] shows that the ‘heavy’ type carries a girth at least one half more than the height at the shoulder , which, in my opinion, becomes rather a disastrous feature when it is mainly acquired by the thickness of the fat layer in skin [located in the hypodermis, the subcutaneous layer of tissue] rather than by a conformation of the skeleton & musculature , appropriately matching the wording ‘massive’ in order to get a ‘beau tout emsemble’.
Robert Leadbetter of the Hazlemere kennels , Bucks. , wrote in 1901 – ‘Then it is the fashion to show Mastiffs very fat ; now, a very fat dog is never a successful stud animal and a very fat bitch is absolutely a failure as far as breeding is concerned, therefore showing in this condition is surely not in the interest of the variety. Show a dog in good condition , of course, but do not imagine he is to compete at Smithfield' [note - the old London’s livestock market] .
IMO , and having in mind ‘girth should be one third more than the height at shoulder ‘ , I should prefer the 50/50 ratio before getting out of balance re ‘ grandeur ‘ .
Many to-day breed highlighters display a girth , more than one half more than the height at the shoulder , even old Oxhaege Thorkel , born 1970 , as the son of Buckhall Wolsey , matched that feature , but on the long run , one has to ask after the well-fare of our breed , as p.ex. the questions as ‘ can organes , heart , &c , function in the same way , nevertheless that huge increase of overall size and at what point does massiveness change into grotesque folly without purpose ...
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:27 PM||Reply with quote #22 |
For the interest , it are indeed the Hellingly phenotypical ‘clones ‘ who definitely match the desired OEMC standard 4:3 ratio height/girth of chest , epitomised by their foundation stud Joseph who was 33 inches at the shoulder and weighed ( at an older age ) 210 lbs opposite the ‘ carthorse ‘ phenotypes exemplified by a/o Medicine Man , standing 30 ½ inches for 217 lbs phenotype which only can be attained by increasing the body mass up to a ratio score of 3:2 or even more as in the case of MM’ relative Oxhaege Thorkel , 29 inch high and a circumference of chest over 45 inches .
There may be some difference between Britain and the States , but generally spoken , the Mastiff was and is rather poorly represented in the British Working Group Ring , quite on the contrary of his fellow breed the St Bernard who’s indeed slightly favoured by his colourful (pied bald) jacket of teddybear qualities but quite frequently complemented this glamour by flamboyant outgoing showmanship and movement in grand zest , all in expression of his breath taking personality .
The Mastiff in Britain , on the contrary , has indeed also produced a number of exquisite specimens , but again generally spoken , they didn’t radiate that extra glitter , necessary for entering the Hall of Fame in dogdom , as p. ex. Miss M Hindes’ St Bernard champion Burtonswoods Bossy Boots who became Cruft’s Best in Show , 1974 .
It looks that our breed gets averagely more bored , dull , in a quite short space of time and I don’t conside that excessive overall weight can diminuish the couch potato behavior ; the breed needs examples of the typey but hard muscled stamp oozing extravert ‘ showmanship ‘ , that latter being however in contradiction with his essential duty of guardmanship , requiring a degree of ‘ reserve ‘ against strangers , i.e. judge & public . So , IMO , a difficult exercice in equilibrium .
` Glamour & Grandeur ’ was not only radiated by the Hellingly Mastiffs theirself but also by their ‘entourage ‘ of country mansion’ luxury .
Until 1932 , the Olivers resided at Hellingly , Sussex , described by in one of their adverts – ‘ It would be difficult to imagine a more ideal position for the kennels . They are on undulating ground about nine miles from the sea and in full view of the South Downs . The exercising ground for the dogs exceeds over more than 100 acres with excellent buildings affording accomadation for upwards of seventy Mastiffs .’
Afterwards until 1939 , the Olivers moved to Bedale Hall , Bedale , Yorkshire , some thirty miles North of the cities York & Harrogate , a spa centre .
Bedale Hall is a Georgian house with Palladian influences and extended from 1777, possibly by the great architect John Carr of York. It was the home of the Peirse family from 1657 until 1947 . Henry Peirse , Member of Parliament for Northallerton for 44 years , became lord of the manor in 1738 . The famous Peirse family’ stud ‘Rand Grande’ at Bedale Hall won a/o the Doncaster St Leger in 1817 (Ebor) and in 1818 (Reveller) . In 1890 Sir Henry Monson de la Poer Beresford-Peirse , Baronet and descendant of Admiral Beresford , was the principal Bedale landowner . The ballroom (see pic.) at Bedale Hall radiates the unique class and splendor of a grand , stately country house .
Mr E G Oliver was also a keen collector of breed antiques from which a number were published within his Kennel Gazette articles about ‘ The Mastiff was popular in the XVIIth & XVIIIth century ‘ .
Scrutinizing these pearls of art , one can easily guess his train of thoughts re the intrinsic value of the Mastiff as a part of Britain’ culture amongst the then ‘beau monde’ .
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:31 PM||Reply with quote #23 |
Without any breed authority re breeding , showing or judging , I only try to advise the fancy based upon historical backgrounds . It should be a shame ignoring knowledge of the then stalwarts and only trust upon own ‘actual ‘ breed experiences . Breed history is also loaded by disastrous results of quite a lot of ‘fads’ which can happen again and again , as the fancy of such an extreme breed of dog is always subject of ‘rages’ all kind .
It’s amazing that a lot of breed authorities when becoming older were or are more focused on the happy ‘sound’ medium in our extravagant breed , as a/o Mr W K Taunton , Mr C Habig and also the late masterly genius , Mr Douglas Olliff of Wyaston kennels , Lydney , Gloucester , founder of the actual Mastiff Assocation in Britain .
It looks if age enhances the X-raying capacities re breed development which gives the opportunity to distillate the intrinsic nucleus in omitting all superfluousness in order to attain ultimate purity re breed content and value . May sound pompously , but I certainly do not pretend , it’s the way I contemplate breed history .
Enjoy both your happy meal !
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:35 PM||Reply with quote #24 |
It is unfair to Marcel who does a tremendous amount of work to bring us pictures and type up all this information--to disrupt his important historical findings and his opinions.I have found in the past looking at this Gentleman he has a wonderful sense of humor, but he he will never be allowed to use it if everyone is always fighting over trivial things. He has spent years looking and purchasing Historical facts and information on our Breed. I hate that this is lost on personalities that are Hell bend on arguing with each other.
There are many other things in life Marcel could be doing with his time, but he chooses to be here, and it is rude, childish and disrespectful to him and the people that want and need to learn what he has to offer. If this continues, I wouldn't blame him in going off and climbing some dangerous Mountain.
| Today at 10:22 AM ||#214|
There’s so much to screen within our breed history, so that temporarily I try to hold on the story line connected with the Olivers of Hellingly .
They came into breed history during the late 1920s when the Old English Mastiff Club was still ‘ ruled ‘ by the aged Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker [1848 - 1930] , who succedeed in 1908 Dr John Sydney Turner , Chairman of the Kennel Club and second OEMC President since 1886 , three years after its founding under the Presidency of Lord Arthur Cecil , son of the 2nd Marquis of Salisbury whose other son Robert , Lord Arthur Cecil’ half brother , became Britain’ Prime Minister during the closing years of Queen Victoria's reign under the name ‘Salisbury’ in succession with William Gladstone , the leader of the Liberal Party .
Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker was OEMC President from 1908 until the break out of WWI when he , as a ranked military man , resigned as OEMC President by which the function was laid down into the hands of Mark Beaufoy , captain of industry and Member of Parliament . At Mark Beaufoy’ passing in 1922 , it was once again patriot par excellence , Zaccheus Walker who became OEMC President until he finally died in December 1930 .
Zaccheus IV was born at Soho Hill in Handsworth and wanted to be a soldier , but his father disapproved , so he went to Glasgow University . After that he went into engineering , and was advancing in that career when around 1880 his father' health began to decline and he was called back from his profession as a draughtsman and engineer at the age of thirty-two to manage the estate and farming businesses at Fox Hollies .
This suited him very well , as he had a great interest in breeding horses and dogs . His stud farm was Fox Hollies Park , at Sandpits Farm . The kennels were adjacent to the Hall , and there he bred Mastiffs with the assistance of his kennelmaster , Joseph Smith who lived in a nearby cottage together with his family . Hyron Hall Farm and Pool Farm were the agricultural units of the estate .
Zaccheus Walker decided to pursue military activity anyway , and spent many years in the Volunteer Reserve , eventually obtaining the rank of Lt.-Colonel . He was involved in many local sporting clubs and was chairman of Yardley Sanitary Authority , and of Yardley Public Works Committee . He was also Vice-Chairman of Yardley District Council .
On Saturday September 12th 1896 he hosted a day out in the country for 700 poor children from All Saints' Ward , who were brought to Acocks Green by train and marched along the lanes to Fox Hollies Hall . This was organised by the Fresh Air Fund , which wanted to give poor children the opportunity of trips away from home. Food was provided , sports and games were played , and the day was a great success.
In many ways local people saw Colonel Walker as the local squire . He was certainly a big landowner , and was buying land between the Hall and Shaftmoor Lane as late as 1912 . However , after World War One , he sold off all his land .
On 7th April 1925 he sold the Dolphin pub to Mitchells and Butlers , and the next month he sold 262 acres to the city for £34.001 . The sale included the Hall and its grounds , but he and his sister Mary were able to stay there . Local youths frequently climbed over the fences to steal fruit , and were chased off by the dogs .
Zaccheus Walker IV died on 5th December 1930 at the age of 82. Les Smith recalls seeing his coffin on a gun carriage , with a Union Jack draped over it , as he left Hartfield school at lunchtime on the day of the funeral . The death of Colonel Walker left his sister Mary Hannah in the Hall with the servants .
Miss Mary Walker was unlike her brother in temperament . He was described as somewhat gruff and authoritarian in manner , but with a sense of humour . All accounts of Miss Walker we have seen refer to her as a lovely lady , dressed with plenty of lace . She could be seen riding in a carriage with parasol around the area . Miss Mary Walker was very involved with the work of St Mary' church and its school in Broad Road , and with the Guides & Brownies . As she became more frail , she would be taken round the grounds in a cart pulled by dogs , with a nurse walking alongside .
Fox Hollies Road was not widened until 1931, the year after Colonel Walker’s death , so he at least was able to retain some seclusion and privacy during his lifetime . The contents of the Hall , including the large collection of paintings , were auctioned in 1933 , and Mary Walker left for Sussex , where she died in December 1938 at the age of 92 . The Hall was demolished by 1937.
Lt –Col Zaccheus Walker genealogical story starts in the Lake District , where Reverend Robert Walker [1709-1802] was parish priest who was such a powerful and well loved figure that he was dubbed 'The Wonderful' ; he died at the age of 93 and even William Wordsworth wrote about him in his poem 'Excursion' . 'Yet with all the simplicity of this good man' habits , such were the attributes of his Divine nature that the lord of Muncaster would doff his hat to the country pastor , which, according to tradition , he need not have removed in the presence of his Monarch on the throne .'
The above quote and much of the information in this section comes from the Yardley Newsletter and house magazine , 1895 .
Reverend Robert Walker' eldest son was called Zaccheus , and three further generations bore the same name, so he was Zaccheus I . He came to Birmingham, was employed by the famous industrialist Matthew Boulton , and married his sister . One son , Zaccheus II was born before she died . As Boulton' business expanded , a merchant department was set up with Zaccheus I [1736-1808] as managing partner .
Another famous name comes to the fore in the life of Zaccheus II [1768-1822] . He worked in his father' business, and in the USA got to know Robespierre . During the French revolution he was in Paris , and was condemned to death as an aristocrat .
Robespierre saw his name on the list of those to be guillotined, and made sure he escaped. Zaccheus II had five children amongst them , Zaccheus III. After Matthew Boulton' sister had died , Zaccheus I had taken another wife, and one of the children of that marriage was Joseph .
It was this man who took care of his half-brother’s children . Joseph was a successful merchant in Birmingham and brought Zaccheus III into his merchant business at the age of 13 . He did so well that at Joseph' death in 1846 the Walker part of the business passed to him . After the death of the other partner, a Mr Armitage , Zaccheus III renamed the company Walker Brothers .
This may have been anticipation of handing the business on to his two sons , one of whom was Zaccheus IV , but he saw that the prosperity of his enterprise was on the wane , and abandoned such plans . He retired to the country, having bought the estate in Yardley known as Fox Hollies . He had also bought Hyron Hall Farm nearby , where he was listed in 1868 .
Around 1870 Zaccheus III [1812-1892] commissioned a rebuild of the house at Fox Hollies in an Italianate style , making it a much grander building . The rebuild included an art gallery for his large collection of paintings . Zaccheus III was also involved in banking . He was instrumental in the rapid expansion of the Stourbridge and Kidderminster Bank , which later amalgamated with the Birmingham Banking Company to form the Metropolitan Bank of England and Wales . He bought a lot of land in the Fox Hollies area, and after retiring from involvement with the bank concerned himself exclusively with rural pursuits : crops , and livestock farming .
A wedding portrait of at Spring Road ca. 1920 . The house was occupied by Joseph Smith , kennelmaster to Lt.-Col. Walker . The bride was Joseph Smith’ daughter Marjorie who used to walk with Mary Walker carrying flowers to St Mary’ church . Joseph Smith worked for Lt.-Col. Walker for fifty years , dying early in 1930 at the age of 68 . At the extreme left Lt-Col. Z Walker & 2nd from right Joseph Smith , his kennel man ; in 1909 , when he was in charge of the Mastiff dog kennels at Fox Hollies Hall , twenty-seven first prizes , six seconds , nine thirds , and many other awards were won . Eight championship wins in a row were achieved .
The KCSB for 1909 results mention following challenge certificates won by Lt.-Col. Z Walker ~ 3x ch Lord of the Manor , 1x Moston Black’ son With The Times , 1x Britain’ Queen & finally 2x Countess Invicta & 1x Duchess Superba . Taking into account Lt.-Col Walker himself judged at the LKA London’Botanical Gardens [no dog cc , 1st prize WK Taunton’ Murdered Monarch , bitch cc AW Lucas’ Mellnotte’ daughter Frivolity] , there were only seven pair of certificates at display for him in that year .
The OEMC President Lt. Col. Zaccheus IV Walker , Justice of Peace but also breeder of horses and huge dogs , was virtually seen by many as the squire of Acocks Green , in that way local youths trespassing and scrumping were in for a nasty surprise ! I.e. a free running bunch of bold Mastiffs .
Main military ranks of the British Army Field – Marshall ~ General ~ Lieutenant General ~ Major General ~ Brigadier ~ Colonel ~ Lieutenant Colonel ~ Major ~ Captain ~ Lieutenant ~ Warrant Officer ~ Sergeant ~ Corporal . Note - The census return of 1901 mentioned him as ‘ Captain 1st War Artillery ‘ .
Another time , a global review of his Mastiff breeding practices based upon sound ‘agricultural footing ‘.
By the way , re fight hobbying I remain on surface , the Mountain Edelweiss shall have to wait for a rendez-vous until Summertime , in the meanwhile it darely amuses me to create some personal flake re breed historical immersion . Some like , some not , so what's the point !
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
| Today at 10:51 AM ||#215|
So what's the point? I often have asked myself that question lately. I guess we have to look back at what that moment in time was it that ignited the fires of passion in each of us for the breed. Perhapes it is what you bring for them.
Your contributions in bringing forth the history of the Breed are so important, it could be lost if you do not continue. Of course some where, some place with the same amount of effort you have put in to find and save things it could be found.........maybe, however I find people to be lazy.
I do appreciate as many do the ease in which you share many things. Is it worth it, is there a point to it...........most definitely. We must understand our past to see our future. Moments of "What do I feed my Mastiff" are of no interest to me, and many here have been stimulated by the rich and sad history of the Breed and the people that went before us, and you bring that to us. If you can inspire only a few to understand there was a beginning and not everything happens in just today, but I know it is more than a few, then that is the point.
| Today at 11:01 AM ||#216|
Marcel on a lighter note and I am a woman on a mission this morning--there is a 60% off sale at my favorite catalog shopping place of a dog belt for ME! Can I pass it off as an ancient Celtic Mastiff........I know it is a personal question...........and you know I can if I try hard but is it historically correct or do I have to lie to everyone that it is?
|Celtic Dogs Belt |
An appropriate moniker for the ancient Celtic hounds that snarl on the buckle of this handcrafted Irish belt! Inspired by the illuminations in The Book of Kells, the fierce canine heads and endless-knot designs on the 3 1/4"-wide, tarnish-free zinc-alloy buckle and complementing full-grain, tooled-leather belt put Irish legend to practical use. Handcrafted in Ireland. Colors: Brown, Black (please specify). Sizes: S (28"-30"), M (30"-32"), L (36"-38").
| Today at 01:05 PM ||#217|
The knots , decorating the leather belt , look as a genuine classical Celtic pattern . There’s a belief that the Celtic knots go originally back to Saxon designing . It remembers me at Sir Walter Scott’ oeuvre , especially Sir Ivanhoe ‘ novel figuring father Isaac , the Lady Rowena , Cedric the Saxon , Robin Hood , all were Saxons fighting the hated Normans from France . Nice belt , for sure , maybe a duplo of thé once worn by The Lady Rowena ...
Ubi fons, ibi purior aqua
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/27/08 at 05:42 PM||Reply with quote #25 |
I have moved all your history over for you Marcel, and thanks on the belt history. It is 60% off today and this may be the day the non Lady-D goes down in history on a great theft................Welcome back Marcel.......You were missed.
** Power Poster **
| Posted 02/27/08 at 09:32 PM||Reply with quote #26 |
Welcome back Marcel. It's so great to have you back. We learn so much from your posts. Thank you.
Mary and Cole
| Posted 02/28/08 at 03:21 PM||Reply with quote #27 |
|MARCEL - I am soooo HAPPY you are back on the FORUM!!!|
I can not begin to tell you how much I enjoy the information that you post here. THANK YOU!!
Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit
The Mastiff Sweet Spot
We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.
We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 02/28/08 at 07:46 PM||Reply with quote #28 |
THANK YOU FOR RETURNING TO THE FORUM! i HAVE MISSED ALL YOUR INTERESTING HISTORY AND THE EFFORT THAT YOU PUT IN TO IT! i ENJOYED THIS THREAD SO MUCH! MERCI.
| Posted 02/29/08 at 11:08 AM||Reply with quote #29 |
|Great to have you back Marcel, you are a mine of information.|
We all learn so much from you, however long we have had this wonderful breed
| Posted 02/29/08 at 12:11 PM||Reply with quote #30 |
|Thank you all to be welcome again , quite touching !
I know there's a fancy for this kind of stuff , a number of images are already known by the rather select club of breed historians , but it seems quite appropriate to place them within their proper context ; these pictures show the forebears of the actual Mastiffs, and in quite a decent number they're not up to to-day standards of the fancy, especially re bulk & curtaining , but still interesting to compare with ...
Lt- Col Zaccheus Walker (1848-1930) . According to the census return 1891 Zaccheus Walker was recorded as a ‘gentleman farmer’ , while the census return 1901 mentions him as a ‘Captain of the 1st Warwickshire Artillery : Magistrate , living on own means’ , as also two servants recorded at Fox Hollies Hall , Beatrice George , domestic housekeeper & Jane Painter , domestic housemaid .
Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker’ first brood bitch was Queen Dido , born August 1883 [ Goth x Abbot Belle ] bred by first-class breeder Edwin Nichols of Kensington , who was listed by the Census Return as a ‘coal merchant ‘ .
Unfortunately no image of Queen Dido but her sis Princess Ida’ head study illuminated Count Henri de Bylandt’ Les Races de Chiens . Princess Ida was quite successful in winning 1st prizes at Warwick , Darlington & Barn Elms .
This ancestry is almost built on the same lines as that of ch Beaufort ; later on it became obvious that Lt Col Zaccheus Walker much aimed at the late Captain Piddocke’ strain based on ch Ogilvie’ progeny , especially through his son Tom Bowling , who sired a/o ch Peter Piper [out of Selina ~ Sir Stafford x ch Ilford Chancellor’ daughter Chocolate Girl] and Jonathan & Joan [both out of Selina’ sis Maggie May] .
Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker’ foundation stock is strongly based on Edwin Nichols’ strain which was cleverly build upon Richard Ansdell’ Leo [going back to the famous Lyme Hall stock] , Cautley Quaker bred by the excellent Yorkshire breeder JW Thompson & his grandson ch King , supplemented by a/o Edgar Hanbury’ line along ch Wolsey’ brother Prince , sire to ch Beau .
In 1888 Z Walker bred a litter out of Queen Dido sired by Edwin Nichols’ stud ch Victor Hugo resulting in Stentor , Sabina & Desdemona .
Ch Victor Hugo was reported as – ‘ large yellow dog , too much of the Boarhound , more spring of ribs , too long in the head nevertheless a grand specimen having great size & symmetry combined , good legs , (splayed) feet more arched splendid mover , a grand strike when walking ‘ . Another one describes him as a/o ‘having very bad pasterns ‘ .
Stentor got four 1st prizes and is behind all Z Walker’ future stock . He was described as – ‘ won easily, a very fine young dog , good coat , splendid head , small ears , dark eyes , and pleasing expression , which last seems unfortunately to be getting rare . He was by far the best mover in the class , and is particularly powerful in his hindquarters . He is much larger than he appears , his perfect symmetry preventing him from filling the eye with size . His only fault is a slight weakness under the eyes . At Darlington under Walter K. Taunton - ‘well-made dog , standing on good legs . I should like him better with more depth of muzzle ‘ ~ Crystal Palace under Richard Cook ‘beautiful dog , famous in body , legs , and feet , but a different type to my first four [ Plutarch , Sir Stafford , Ayrshire & Lord Clive ] .
In 1889 he mated Stentor’ sis Desdemona to WK Taunton’ brindle champion Constable resulting in Cinderella who was awarded some minor prizes [ 3rd at Bristol & 2nd limit Birmingham ] shown by J. Walker junior , most probably his brother Joseph’ son . Ch Constable (ch Hotspur x ch Cardinal’ daughter Tring Empress) was described as – ‘ wonderful body , good bone , nice dark eye , a little more bulk , head somewhat lacking breed character , rather Newfy , and a muzzle not heavy enough ‘.
Zaccheus Walker’ next brood bitch was ch. Ogilvie’ daughter Coronet II , bred by Arthur Green of Sunderland . He mated her to Baron Hatton [ unr. ] resulting in Coronation .
He bred a litter from Coronation sired by Stentor’ son Dauntless , bred by T. Birch of Bow nr Leyton , London . Their progeny was a/o Royal Princess & Waiting Maid .
Royal Princess became the dam of Invicta’ Wrangler who sired Dowager Duchess , the dam of Z. Walker’ champions Britain’ Belle , British Queen & Charming Duchess .
The ‘Tom Bowling blood’ was brought in a/o along a ch Peter Piper’ grandson , James Greenwood’ Sir Kenneth who sired his champion bitches Britain’ Queen & Britain’ Belle out of Dowager Duchess , great-grandaughter to Tom Bowling’ & Joan’ grandaughter Paula .
A Jonathan’ grandson , Luke Crabtree Moston Black who mated to Tom Bowling’ grandaughter Waiting Maid produced With The Times , who sired ch Lord of the Manor , Lt-Col. Z Walker’ ultimate breed success , gaining not less than fifteen challenge certificates , his 1st being only 12 months old , beating a/o ch Felix bred by George Cook of Cleveland kennels , and according to the KCSB records , the Lord of the Manor was never beaten . His grandsire Moston Black , ch Holland’ Black Boy’ typical son , was rather of small size .
Zaccheus Walker can be considered as one of the few great breeders who bridged successfully their breeding programme into the twentieth century .
Obviously there was some ‘good fellowship’ between the great Hollywood actor Charles Aubrey Smith & Zaccheus Walker , awarding cc’s to each others Mastiffs .
Aubrey Smith’ champion Colonel Cromwell‘ sis Lady Claypole was the dam of Marcus Superba who sired Z. Walker’ champion Countess Invicta & Lady Superba (both bred by AW Lucas) , their dam being A.W. Lucas’ Paula , linebred to Peter Piper’ sire Tom Bowling & Peter Piper’ uncle Iron Duke . Lady Superba became the dam of ch. Lord of the Manor , sired by ‘With The Times’. Paula' pic. below together with her grandaughter ch Charming Duchess .
Ch Charming Duchess’ brother Grand Duke was out of ch Dowager Duchess [Tom Bowling’ grandson Wrangler x ch Ogilvie’ great-grandaughter Royal Princess] sired by ch Lord of the Manor [see above] which means that Grand Duke is going back to Tom Bowling along three grandparents , the remaining one goes back to Tom Bowling’ sire ch Ogilvie .
Grand Duke got reserve cc’s at 19 months old under AJ Thorpe & AW Lucas, both times beaten by ch ch Brompton Duke ; further on also reserve cc’s under Mark Beaufoy , beaten by ch Lidgett Viscount & under WH Reeves at Richmond ‘14 , again beaten by ch Brompton Duke .
Brompton Duke was sired by Cleveland Leopold whose pedigree was denied as being not sired by ch Hotspur’ grandson Caractacus but by a Saint-Bernard [ ? owned by William Price of South Stockton , a Mastiff & Saint-Bernard breeder living nearby the Cleveland breeder George Cook , Marton nr Middlesbrough] whereby so-called indication was given by the fact that Leopold & his brother Monarch were considered as reds .
Grand Duke’ cousin Polly Gwynne , born 26 June 1911 , out of Madame Gwynne [With The Times’ brother Sandy Boy x Nell Gwynne ~ Young Heimdal x Quenie] sired by ch Lord of the Manor’ brother Lord of the British Isles ; the Kennel Club Stud Books mention only two prizes for Polly Gwynne , a 3rd prize under AJ Thorpe , beaten by her cousin Z Walker’ ch Charming Duchess & ch Brompton Duchess an a reserve cc under AW Lucas , again beaten by Lt Col Z Walker’ ch Charming Duchess .
All the 28 different KCSB entries bred by Lt Col Z Walker were also owned by himself except two owned by his brother Joseph , a barrister’ , also residing at Fox Hollies Hall and also based upon the KCSB records all his own bred studs were only used by him except his 1st stud Stentor who sired Dauntless , bred by T Birch .
A magnificent historical breed personality but seemingly only breeding for own purpose ; there are people who claim that breeders with such agricultural farm stock ‘roots’ are more concerned and/or focused on construction , soundness & general health . The more pity , Lt-Col. Z Walker’ strain of first-class Mastiffs didn’t have contributed to the rebuilding of the breed after World War . Unfortunately , another black hole in history .
| Posted 02/29/08 at 12:27 PM||Reply with quote #31 |
|Hi Marcel - it is so good to see you here!! |
The point for me in enjoying your posts is that I get to escape from my day to day drudgery and enter a Mastiff world of another time and place. It's quite facinating to see the trends of another day and how those who loved their Mastiffs lived with them. I'm also lazy, as Deb says, but without your shared information I would have no clue where to go to find this information and pictures and in all likelyhood would not have the money (or could not convince my better half to let me spend it) anyways!!
So THANK YOU, you are appreciated!!
What Wisdom Can You Find That Is Greater Than Kindness?
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
| Posted 02/29/08 at 04:56 PM||Reply with quote #32 |
If you want to see a very rare video of Hellingly dogs, then go to the above site and follow my directions as follows:
In the "search the database" blank type in Hellingly.
Next, click on Masterful mastiffs.
Then click download video
Next, put in country of residence and press proceed.
Now fill out the form and press proceed.
click to get files
click free preview
This is a no charge viewing so don't get nervous. You won't be billed.
Now sit back and enjoy a bit of Hellingly history............
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
| Posted 02/29/08 at 05:20 PM||Reply with quote #33 |
|Thanks , Steve . |
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
| Posted 02/29/08 at 05:23 PM||Reply with quote #34 |
In addition, on the same site type in "he dogs" filmed at Buxton 1933.
They wrongly label the listing as bull mastiffs. In this video one can see Angel Manai (sp) and the unusual way a height for a mastiff was measured!
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
| Posted 03/01/08 at 10:28 AM||Reply with quote #35 |
|A colorful character within the breed history was Charles Aubrey Smith . His Mastiff ch Colonel Cromwell got challenge certificates at Crystal Palace ’ 02 under Dr John Sidney Turner , at Manchester ’ 06 under Lt-Col Z. Walker , at Crystal Palace ’ 07 Dr Turner and at Birmingham ’ 07 under the world famous Bloodhound breeder Edwin Brough of Windygates nr Scarborough .
Charles Aubrey Smith judged at Crystal Palace October ‘08 ~ Z Walker’ Lord of the Manor & Z Walker’ Countess Invicta and at Birmingham ’12 ~ Z. Walker’ Lord of the Manor & Arthur’ Brompton Duchess
He was the very personification of the British Empire . Tall , stately and aristocratic looking with his huge, bushy mustache , he was quite an imposing figure . Even so , when young English journalist Alistair Cooke first travelled to Hollywood in the early 1930s to interview Smith , it was not to discuss the actor' four decades in show business , but to wax nostalgic on his athletic career .
The son of a London surgeon , Smith [ London '63 – Beverley Hills , California 1948 ] played soccer for the Corinthians and cricket for Cambridge . For four years, ‘Round the Corner Smith’ [so named because of his unique playing style] was captain of the Sussex County Cricket Club , playing championship matches throughout the Empire .
When time came to choose a ‘real’ vocation , Smith dallied with the notion of following in his dad' footsteps , then worked as a teacher and stockbroker . In ‘92 , at the age of 29 , he finally decided to become an actor [ not without family disapproval !] , launching his stage career with the A. B. Tappings Stock Company in the theatre in England and later on in Broadway .
He made his London debut in 1895 , and the following year scored his first significant success as Black Michael in ‘The Prisoner of Zenda’ ; also in ‘96 , he married Isobel May Wood , a union that endured for over fifty years . His subsequent stage triumphs included Shaw' ‘Pygmalion’ in which he succeeded Sir Herbert Beerbohm-Tree as Professor Henry Higgins .
Despite the theatrical community's disdainful attitude towards the ‘flickers’, Smith enthusiastically launched his film career in 1914 . He was one of the co-founders of the short-lived but energetic Minerva Film Company , and by 1915 had begun making movies in America . It was his 1928 stage hit Bachelor Father that led to Smith' phenomenally successful career in talking pictures . For 18 years, he was perhaps Hollywood's favorite ‘professional Englishmen ’ .
He was at his best in martinet military roles, most memorably in a brace of 1939 productions : ‘The Sun Never Sets’, in which he used a wall-sized map to dutifully mark off the far-flung locations where his progeny were serving the Empire, and ‘The Four Feathers’, wherein he encapsulated his generation by crustily declaring ‘War was war in my day , sir ! An idea taken over from his elder fellow OEMC member Lieutenant-Colonel Zaccheus Walker ?
Other notable roles in the Smith canon included Jane's father in Tarzan the Apeman ‘32 , a close-minded aristocrat who turns out to be an out-of-work actor in Bombshell 1933 , the intensely loyal Colonel Zapt in The Prisoner of Zenda ‘37 and an outraged murder-victim-to-be in Ten Little Indians ‘45 .
His professional pace did not lag as he entered his eighth decade : he briefly returned to the stage in ‘41 , and throughout the war years could be seen in roles ranging from single-scene cameos 'The Adventures of Mark Twain’ & ‘Unconquered’ to full leads ‘Scotland Yard Inspector’ 1945 .
A recipient of the Order of the British Empire [MBE] in 1938 , Smith was knighted by King George VI in 1944 , largely because of the positive image of Mother England that the actor invariably projected . Educated at Cambridge University , he was also a member of England' National Cricket team . The undisputed leader of Tinseltown' ‘British Colony’ , Smith also organized the Hollywood Cricket Club, taking pride in the fact that he hadn't missed a weekend match for nearly sixty years.
Among his over 100 films were ∼ ‘The Builder of Bridges’ 1915 a silent and his film debut ; ‘Trader Horn’ 1931 with Harry Carey , as Trader; ‘Tarzan the Ape Man’ 1932 as James Parker ; ‘Queen Christina’ 1933 with Greta Garbo , as Aage ; ‘Morning Glory’ 1933 as Robert Harley Hedges ; ‘The Lives of a Bengal Lancer’ 1935 as Major Hamilton ; ‘Lloyds of London’ 1936 as Old Q ; ‘Little Lord Fauntleroy’ 1936 as the Earl of Dorincourt , with Freddie Bartholomew ; ‘Wee Willie Winkie’ 1937 as Colonel Williams , with Shirley Temple ; ‘The Four Feathers’ 1939 as General Burroughs ; Hitchcock’ ‘Rebecca’ 1940 as Colonel Julyan ; ‘Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde’ 1941 as Bishop Manners ; ‘Madame Curie’ 1943 as Lord Kelvin; ‘Unconquered’ 1947 as Lord Chief Justice . Sir Charles Aubrey Smith was still in harness when he died of pneumonia at the age of 85 ; his last film appearance as Mister Lawrence in Little Women was released posthumously in 1949 .
Excerpt from FE Hodgson’ Little Lord Fauntleroy ~ ‘But he had attracted attention in one quarter at least . On the floor, by the arm-chair , lay a dog , a huge tawny Mastiff , with body and limbs almost as big as a lion' ; and this great creature rose majestically and slowly , and marched toward the little fellow with a heavy step . Then the person in the chair spoke . ‘Dougal’ he called , ‘come back , sir.’ But there was no more fear in little Lord Fauntleroy' heart than there was unkindness , he had been a brave little fellow all his life . He put his hand on the big dog' collar in the most natural way in the world, and they strayed forward together, Dougal sniffing as he went .’
Brilliant , the way the old Earl called Ceddie’ friend disdainly ‘bootblack Dick’ , opposite boasting his hurted pride when he speaks about his humanized Mastiff Dougal as ‘a higly crowned show prize winner’ .
In an interesting contribution to the Hants Canine Society’ quaterly journal Robert Leadbetter , Esq. , Hazlemere Park Bucks , writes ~ Mr Charles Aubrey Smith’ sufficiently emphasises the eulogy of the Mastiff as a ‘protector of person & property’, and at the same time gives a very complete panegyric of the breed, as following ~ ‘ I love the Mastiff far and away above any other animal . Strong , large , keen , obedient , faithful , with noble head , honest wrinkled face , majestic and graceful , lion-like , pleasing in colour , with a smooth , delightful coat . Unsurpassed as a guard to person and property , Britain’s national dog , met in Saxon tales and Roman history ’ .
Herbert Compton’ The Twentieth Century Dog (1904) gives another remark by CA Smith – ‘ Breeders of to-day adhere to the short , bulldog , thick , Bordeaux type of head . Surely this was not the type of the old English Mastiff ? To my mind it deprives the king of dogs of intelligence of expression , to say the least . And I vote for length of muzzle accompanied with due breadth , and free from any suspicion of tapering , as being most in accord with the original type .’
Was there any possibility that the Bordeaux breed has been intermixed in order to beget the square head as asked for by the points of the breed standard of the Old English Mastiff Club ?
In first instance there were during the last decades of the nineteenth century only very few Dogue de Bordeaux specimens in England as a/o those owned by HC Brooke & Sam Woodiwiss .
Thereby the Dogue de Bordeaux was a fighting breed purely and simply , and if there’s anything that is repulsive to English dog-lovers , it is the knowledge that by encouraging such a breed they are giving a direct incentive to those degraded forms of ‘sports’ that once obtained here , but are now happily relegated to the limbo of forgotten cruelties . One can presume that the then first class Mastiff breeders were aware of this basic behaviour inherited by the Dogue de Bordeaux . They should have thought twice before using such a ‘fighter’ in order to breed a more ‘attractive’ head risking also to alter the generally steady & reliable temperament of the real guardian .
Ch Helmsley Defender was bred by Arthur W Lucas , out of ch Colonel Cromwell’ sis Lady Claypole sired by Tom Bowling’ grandson Black Prince . Wm Hunter Johnston reported about Defender – ‘ A good brindle , with a grand head , well carried ears , and good expression , hocks well let down , and a dog that can gallop ; a slight tendency , perhaps , to stand a little out of the square in front , but this may be more apparent than real . In 2nd place ch Colonel Cromwell , a handsome fawn , grand head , body , legs and feet , loses slightly to winner in squareness of muzzle , otherwise a very near thing . This dog , although somewhat on the gross side , was shown in fine form , and carries his seven years in very juvenile fashion .
Next time a visit to Captain J Leonard Piddocke of Ross-on-Wye , who bred quite a number of specimens behind Lt-Col Zaccheus Walker' strain .
| Posted 03/02/08 at 10:23 AM||Reply with quote #36 |
|Piddocke Jno. Leonard [1849 - March 1894] , Esq , was captain of the 2nd Herefordshire rifle corps, which was raised at Ross on Wye in 1860 . According to Littlebury' Directory and Gazetteer of Herefordshire, 1876-7, J L Piddocke resided at ‘The Hill’ , Walford , Herefordshire [3 miles South of Ross on Wye] with a/o following neighbours - Lewis Edgar, Esq., The Hill & Bradstock Thos. Skinner, Esq., sen. , farmer , Cobrey Park [ a post medieval historic Herefordshire site earlier on mentioned as Cokebury, Coughbury Park , Colbury , Coughbury , Cobury & Chalceburge ] , which later on became the home of captain JL Piddocke .
In 1871 Walford parish , near the river Wye on the Ross and Forest of Dean road with an adjacent scenery of romantic beauty and loveliness unsurpassed by any on the Wye , counted 1.303 inhabitants , under them lord of the manor Captain Kingsmill Manley Power of Hill Court .
Hill Court’ gardens , dating from the late 17th Century [with later additions] set in parkland of 80 acres , are associated with John Kyrle [‘Man of Ross’ 1637-1724] . Captain KM Power was the grandson of Lieutenant-General Sir Manley Power [1773-1826] KCB , Lt-Governor of Malta , highly distinguished as an Officer through the Peninsular War , and also was destined as one of the famous Waterloo Men who defeated the French Emperor Napoleon ; Walford’ St Leonard church is an ancient stone edifice in the Anglo-Norman style of architecture , with square tower containing two bells ; the vicar , instituted in 1842 , was Reverend Arthur Stonehouse , BA of Wadham College , Oxford where Reverend MB Wynn’ father officiated as a Master of Arts.
Captain JL Piddocke wasn’t only a Mastiff fancier ; he presented a twenty-five guinea cup for bitches as a Member of ‘The British Bulldog Club’ [established 1892 & registered 1902] .
His first brood bitch , Leah , was out of Heela , ‘a bitch admired by some , but having a cur-like head , and only a poor reproduction of her famous sire [ Hanbury’ Prince ] ‘ .
Captain Piddocke’ first stud was Malcolm Bush Wynn‘ four years old own bred Young King [see head study at left] by champion Taurus ; their son Ajax was reported to ‘have possessed a pinched muzzle’ .
Possibly Leah was later on sold to G. Renton , M.D. [Doctor of Medicine] , of Edinburgh who bred ch. Prince of Wales from her .
The second bitch , Lena , had a good body , but also pinched in the muzzle and ears badly carried . She was mated to champion Crown Prince resulting in champion Toozie & Rudolph .
‘ Champion Toozie had not much the matter with her but her name , which seems hardly appropriate to a Mastiff , a fine big bitch of a rich fawn colour , straight and firm on her legs , needs a shade more bulk & size , moves lightly, a good skull but much undershot in the underjaw, nice small ears but not well carried , light full eye .’
Rudolph , ‘a good Mastiff with plenty of substance , very good in legs and feet , marred by a staring eye and somewhat spoilt by having one tulip ear ; his ears , however , are smaller than most of Crown Prince’ get .’ Malcolm Bush Wynn writes ‘ to anyone about importing a really good specimen for America , I should certainly select Bismarck [ ch. Crown Prince ex The Boss’ Lady ] or Rudolph before all others exhibited at the Palace , July 1884 , under Dr J. Sidney Turner .’
Dr JS Turner reported as following ‘ Rudolph has a very good skull and the squarest of muzzle , grandly made body , capital legs and feet , but he is spoilt by light mask and ears , which are set on too high and are badly carried; his eye is very light , thus giving him a wild expression of a nature which he evidently does not possess , as his temper seems very good ‘ .
At Birmingham 1887 , judge Harding Cox wrote ‘ Rudolph was the single exception to the rule of timidity , and exhibited such a fiendish temper , that he had to be left in peace ; he appeared to be a well built dog , and his head is square and massive , but its colour is very bad, showing no dark shadings whatever ’ .
Their third bitch was Taunton ‘ brindle Stella [ ch. Cardinal ex ch. Gwendolen ] , mated to champion Montgomery produced Zillah III .
Champion Montgomery , ‘ a good one , all round , a good deep body , but not well ribbed up , just a trifle more undershot than I liked , walked less lame than others , has a very good skull , his head is almost too short , but wonderfully square , his muzzle is perceptibly undershot , so as to prevent that squareness of muzzle of profile which is so desirable , good colour of mask and eyes .’
Zillah III , ‘ a very taking big strong , straight grown , active bitch and good mover ; in body , legs and feet very good , somewhat weak behind , spoilt by her bushy stern , pointed somewhat weak muzzle , general coarseness , and similarity to the St. Bernard type , grand colour , her expression is marred by a light eye , she is strong in some points calculated to make her a useful brood bitch .’
Champion Toozie was mated to three studs , namely
. Champion Victor Hugo , ‘ a large yellow dog with a long weak head , and very bad pastern joints [ 11 months , judge Beaufoy ] ; a good skull , but a moderately broad muzzle , of great size and of symmetrical proportion , muscular development , and good bone ; his present faults being weakness of pasterns and rather splayed feet , but he has much improved in these and other respects during the last six months , and if he continues to improve he will be heard of again in a front place , a good mover , taking in colour , full of the old fashioned Mastiff points , big and wide in skull , powerful in frame , deep , and on good limbs , with the massiveness of the breed ; keeping in the same line , it was a good decision also that got Beaufort , Ilford Chancellor an Boatswain into the other positions [ Kennel Club Aquarium , July 1886 , judge Edgar Hanbury ] . Victor Hugo is a splendid mover , having a grand stride when walking , has a good body , which would be improved by a little more spring of ribs ; he is better than Ilford Chancellor in colour of eye , but not so good in muzzle .’
Progeny – Champion Jubilee Beauty , ‘ a most typical bitch , needs more size & bone , has good body , legs and feet , moves splendidly and light , but inheriting her dam bold , light eyes .’
. Champion Beaufort , ‘ somewhat overrated ; his muzzle and underjaw simply perfect , but he lacks wrinkle , and his eyes are not right ; he is undoubtedly narrow chested , and the outward turn of one hind leg is awkward .’
Progeny - Lord Cobrey , ‘ has a good skull , square muzle , which is blunt without being repulsive , nice eyebrows , ears , neck and head , and plenty length of body ; his chief faullts are an eye which is not good of colour , and a slight tendency to weakness in his pasterns and hind quarters , which probably age will correct , moved badly in the ring .’ Lord Cobrey’ brother David Garrick , ‘ but little inferior in markings , too narrow in muzzle , though small he is a nicely made dog , with a nice skull , good ears and eyes .’
. Champion Ilford Chancellor , ‘ but a puppy of nine months , and is a very fine specimen of that age , his skull and muzzle promise to become very good , but he is too troaty , good legs and feet ; if his body develops well , he will take a good position in the future , his mouth is very level , although his sire was anything but perfect in this respect ; this shows the good result may be arrived at by breeding from an ultra typical specimen .’
Zillah III mated to Champion Jack Thyr gave Don Juan II , ‘ most majestic looking dog , tremendous bone and wonderful size , monkey faced and as sliding of under the eyes .’
Champion Jack Thyr , ‘ a dog of great power , and possesses a good formation of skull and muzzle squarely modelled ; he is exceedingly strong in foreface , and very powerful in underjaw ; his head is equally good , whether viewed in front or profile ; his ears are well carried , but he would be much improved by a darker eye , more colour of mask , and a little more wrinkle over the forehead ; age may however , improve the last point . In bone , body , legs and feet he is good , and he walks very squarely , although he turns one foot a little when standing still . His condition of coat was bad , which detracted a little from his appearance , but his general Mastiff character and general all-round points carried him to the front of this class very easily .’
Jack Thyr was in good trim , is a very good all-round Mastiff, especially strong in front of the eyes , well shaped in skull , with good body and legs , and he moves in good style . He is mealy in colour of mark, and rather light in eye. A very square , well-built dog , with large bone , and well formed skull.’
Capt. Piddocke’ Zillah III mated to Orlando II gave the grand champion Ogilvie , ‘ great height & substance, very symmetrical & active dog with good elastic movement , a trick of standing with his forefeet too close together, little lacking in spring of ribs [cfr his grandsire Montgomery] & second thighs , rather light eye , small soft ear , really square foreface a rare quality in brindles , rather undershot , shows some dish face , has lots of bone , having little life and ‘go’ about him . ‘
Ch. Ogilvie’ brother Cobrey Bruce , ‘ a grand bodied dog , with stern and hinder parts like a bull and a grand mover [nevertheless both parents were weak behind !] , eyes and ears right , strong under the eye , plain and rounded skull , rather long in muzzle, more blunt and not quite broad or deep enough at the end of the muzzle ; one of the finest coloured dark brindles ; but somewhat coarse especially his stern and his head, exhibiting much Newfoundland character .’
Orlando II is ‘ a very massive dog for his age , with large skull , immense chest , and good forelegs , moves badly ~ has a grand skull frontispiece , with heavy bone , but appears to inherit the weakness of his sire , Orlando , in his hind-quarters .’
Lady Dudley was also mated to three studs , namely Don Juan II , Montgomery II out of ch Lord Stafford’ sis ch Lady Florida & his own bred Iron Duke . Her best get was ch Plutarch , ‘ larger than Stentor , good length of body and good skull , not deep enough in muzzle , cheekiness, dark eye, small ears , cowhocks , though fine active mover .’
Champion Plutarch brother ‘Lord Clive , ‘ having size and bone with capital legs and carriage , enormous bone, ears are full large , at present he is too flat sided and wanting in cheeks , and his expression , though kindly , lacks dignity , a trifle too turned up , slightly cow-hocked ; champion Plutarch’ sister Lady Clive , her muzzle though full under the eye tapers off too much towards the end , her ears are over large . ‘
Ch . Jubilee Beauty was mated to two studs,
. Champion Ogilvie resulting in champion Brampton Beauty , ‘ best bitch of the era ‘ , according to Dr Sidney Turner and her brother Tom Bowling , ‘ a grand headed dog , but he was shown in a wretched condition , owned by AW Lucas . ‘[ both parents light eyed ! ]
. Ch Lord Stafford , ‘ too bully to please me, good skull and measures well under the eye , but he falls away at the end of the end of muzzle , a well grown dog , very strongly put together , with good legs and feet , skull very large and muzzle good , but the larger size of the former spoils the balance between them , altogether the head wants modelling and that bevelled off look which we see so well shown in Hotspur , somewhat light in bone ; fails in foreface , although short, lacks the squareness which is so essential in a highly typical Mastiff .’
Besides being a captain of the 2nd Hereford Rifle Corps [see badge above The Hill House] , John Leonard Piddocke Piddocke was a partner solicitor in the ‘ Henry Minett , Son & Piddocke’ firm and commissioner to administer oaths in the supreme court of judicature ; the offices were at St. Mary street ~ Ross on Wye while he resided at The Hill House ~ Walford [see above at right] ; he also was additional beneficiary within the will of Henry Minett .
His brother Sir Stafford [champion Frigga Secunda’ sire] , is ‘ built on very similar lines but has the same faults more strongly marked , also shorter in body ; if he had a bolder muzzle , he would rarely be beaten ; though of great heigth and size , he is full of quality , excellent bone and a free mover , showing himself remarkably well , his forefeet somewhat splayed .’
Quadruple Cruft’ winner Champion Peter Piper was sired by Tom Bowling and along his dam side , Selina , he was grandsired by ch Lord Stafford’ brother Sir Stafford while ch. Ilford Chancellor great grandsired him , so there was much resemblance regarding Captain Piddocke own breeding terms . Champion Peter Piper , ‘ was not looking quite so well as he did at the Crystal Palace , being too light . He excels in all the points , that are desired in a Mastiff ; if he had any faults , it is that he carries his stern a little too high and being a trifle flatsided [ grandsire Ogilvie & f 4 Montgomery , little lack of spring of ribs ; great grandam Toozie , needs more bulk ; f 3 Beaufort , narrow chested ] .
In the Kennel Club Gazette of December 1897 , C. Court Rice described him as , ‘ Peter Piper begins to show ‘wear and tear’ and he is heavier in front and lighter behind than formerly , which is certainly no assistance to his forelegs , never his strong point , and he shows a wonderful resemblance to his GG sire ch Ilford Chancellor , in his development of loose skin about the throat . Still he , of course , had no difficulty in defeating his opponents in the Open Class, nor in beating Marksman for the challenge .’
KC Gazettes ‘97 mentioned Peter Piper’ brother Leyton Jim as ~ ‘ whom I [Blondin’ breeder Thorpe] considered the best headed dog in the Class ; colour , bone and movement good , but sadly handicapped in his very short forelegs ; Leyton Jim has a grand head with a good shaped body and nice bone , an otherwise grand specimen being spoiled by having a low front .’ Dr Turner described their aunt , Brampton Beauty [17 mths old ch Ogilvie’ daughter] as ~ ‘ head of excellent type , had she been as long in body and as good in loin as Frigga II [28 mths] , she would have also won the Challenge Cup . I don’t mean to say that she is bad in these points , but her rival is superlatively good in them. Anyway there was not a great deal to divide them, and I carefully weighed the better type of head against the better body .’
P.S. As most other articles compiled quite some years ago .
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 03/03/08 at 08:43 AM||Reply with quote #37 |
Marcel, I am cleaning up what I moved for you and reinserting to adjust for the Grandness you made on certain things, as you said once too large is uncomfortable and you go beyond the margins.............so I am making you fit just perfect here and when you decide to enlarge............just enlarge once do not touch the box for really big...........
Registered: Member deleted
| Posted 03/03/08 at 09:12 AM||Reply with quote #38 |
Marcel, your length is fine, but I believe you will have to work on your width as well, so we can all see you without having to scroll over and over ..................not that I would be the one to complain, but think of the comfort of others that are more fragile.
| Posted 03/03/08 at 12:35 PM||Reply with quote #39 |
|Yes , that scrolling is quite fatiguing , Deborah , and certainly after some horse riding .
A great breeder’ example for the Olivers of Hellingly was ‘Bob’ Humphry Thomas of Menai kennels . His foundation bitch , ch Ashenhurst Bernicea , was a sis to ch Ashenhurst Cedric ; her litter [ ‘24] by Miss MD Hitchings ch King Baldur [bred by RJ Burch] resulted in two champions Yosemite [8 cc’s ] & Beechwood Queen [ 6 cc’s ~ owned by WH Calcott of Thornby kennels ] , Wantley King Baldur [sire of ch Hellingly Joseph & Cleveland Julian who sired ch Hellinly Cardinal & ch - Marksman] , Torquil [ reserve cc’s under Miss CM Garland , beaten by ch Westcroft and Wantley King Baldur in 3rd place ~ under Arthur Croxton Smith , beaten by ch Prince and leaving Guy Greenwood’ ch Duke in 3rd place ] , Lady Beatrice [reserve cc under Miss CM Garland , beaten by Poor Joe’ daughter Baltana and ch Menai Yosemite in 3rd place ] and finally Markie [reserve cc under William Hunter Johnson , not yet eleven months old , beaten by Ashenhurst Duke’ Lord Byron and 3rd prize for WH Calcott’ Beechwood Monarch out of Ashenhurst Duchess sired by ch Ashenhurst Cedric] .
Menai’ 2nd brood , ch King Baldur’ Girl, whelped two KCSB registered litters [’24 & ? ] , being a grandaughter to George Cook’ Brodrick Defender , ch Brompton Duke’ brother ; one sired by her sire ch King Baldur , producing a/o Wowona [ 3rd prize under N Walker Hall] ; the other sired by ch Ashenhurst Cedric which gave Brigadier , who , on his term , sired Broomcourt Nell , exported to the States and Lady Superior , one of the early broods of Ben Bennett of Broomcourt .
The next brood , ch Yosemite , produced also two litters [’25 & ‘29 ] ; the first sired by champion Ashenhurst Cedric resulted in ch Juno [4 cc’s ] , Anglesea [not less than four reserve cc’s under ch Arolite’ breeder JG Joice , only twelve months old , beaten by ch Havengore Bill , 3rd place for WH Calcott’ King Agrippa ; the following month under T Hooton , beaten by his sire ch Cedric , 3rd prize for King Agrippa’ brother Sir Thomas ; under Chris Houlker , beaten by Guy Greenwood ch Benvolio , 3rd place for ch Woden ; under N Walker Hall , beaten by ch Bulger , 3rd place for ch Hellingly Joseph ] ;
Almost [reserve cc under N Walker Hall , beaten by ch Wantley Joy , 3rd place for ch Helga ] & Comet [ seemingly unshown but regularly used at stud , being a/o the sire of Norah Dickin’ Thor].
Menai Maida [ Wantley King Baldur x Brunhilde] mated to Anglesea [‘28 ] gave Stella [ cc under JG Joice, beating ch Woden’ Lady Here and three reserve cc’s under N Walker Hall , beaten by ch Woden ‘ Lady Here , 3rd place Dervot Dawn ; under A Croxton Smith beaten by ch Wantley Joy , 3rd place for Hellingly Boadicea ; under Chris Houlker , beaten by Dervot Dawn , 3rd place for Cleveland Chancellor’ Benton Joan , Stella was later on exported to the States ] , Janice [dam to Norah Dickin’ Goring Robert , two reserve cc’s under S Crabtree , beaten by Broomcourt John & under HJ White , beaten by Hammercliffe Remus ] & Lady Rose [registered of Hellingly] .
Bob Thomas bred his last KCSB litter in October 1929 out of Yosemite [her 2nd litter] sired by ch Havengore Bill resulting in Lady [registered as Wyndley Boadicea , owned by Norah Dickin] and Mark [registered of Havengore , owned by Lucy Scheerboom ~ vide above at left ~ splendid type but unfortunately rather turning out his feet ] who became the sire of the exquisite Havengore champion Christopher .
Bob Thomas’ Menai kennels must have been the centre point of Mastiff breed activities during their rather short period of existence , a/o an ‘Old English Mastiff Club’ gathering at ‘Haddon Hall Hydro’ with a lot of breed fanciers in a seemingly relaxed manner having a perfect host displaying a kind of ‘marked art for decorum’ ; it must have been one of the most brilliant features of the Club’s history .
Menai Comet was brother to Menai Anglesea & ch Menai Juno [ch Ashenhurst Cedric x ch King Baldur’ champion daughter Menai Yosemite] ; Comet sired a/o Mrs Norah Dickin’ Thor .
Bob Thomas & his friend C R Oliver lived as aforementioned in the States ; Bob featured in films in which he could utilize his abilities as a horseman ; he played the star role in ‘The Four Horsemen in the Apocalypse’ [a title also mentioned in the Bible , chapter VI of the Book of Revelation , and traditionally the four were named Pestilence , War , Famine , and Death] .
Later on he became entertainment manager of an exclusive Yosemite Valley Hotel before settling down at Buxton’ Haddon Hall Hydro Hotel , the home of the Menai kennels , where also has taken place a most prestigious OEMC gathering in the early thirties and amongst the present breed specimens maybe also Broomcourt breeder Ben Bennett’ promising young bitch ‘Ponorogo’ [called after a regency hundred twenty miles South West of Surabaya at Java] bred by Herbert Cook Cleveland kennels .
In those early 1930ties the United States were under the spell of the Lindbergh case which indirectly had some influence on the Mastiff fancy abroad .
Their baby was kidnapped for ransom in 1932. Its decomposed body was located 10 weeks later , but only after the Lindberghs had already handed over $50,000 in gold certificates . In 1935, immigrant carpenter and convicted felon Bruno Richard Hauptmann was found guilty of the crime . He was executed the following year in the electric chair .
After the trial, Lindbergh and his wife moved to England to escape the American press . Soon thereafter he became enamored of Nazi Germany , admiring the policies of Hitler' regime . After making a couple of visits he even began making plans to move there permanently. He became active in the isolationist movement, urging England & U.S. to observe complete neutrality should war break out.
A month after the publishing of the above ‘Our dogs’ article , the Mastiff Mems of August 5, 1932 mentioned ~ ‘ It is a pleasure also to welcome into the fancy an American owner in the person of Colonel Percy Hobart Titus of Manthorne rd West Roxbury , Boston , Mass. It is to be hoped that others will follow his example and become possessors of what Idstone described as the prince of non-sporting dogs – the Mastiff . Colonel Titus has just acquired an excellent bitch from Mrs Langton , which is to form the nucleus of what he hopes to make an extensive kennel . American readers are reminded that their support is required by the Mastiff Club of America .’
Manthorne Captain Jinks was [probably] out of ch Hellingly Ajax’ daughter Milfold Lass [also grandsired by ch Ashenhurst Cedric & Country Squire] sired by Prince Patrick of Penn [Prince Peter bred by Menai breeder Bob Thomas – King Agrippa x ch Menai Juno – ex Lady Patricia bred by Deleval breeder Mrs Edger – ch Havengore Bill x Deleval Gyda by ch Woden] ;
Manthorne June was also out of Milfold Lass sired by Buddy , grandson to ch Cleveland Premier , Evans’ ch Prince’ son Thor de Isles & Betty , a ½ brother/sis breeding to ch Weland of the Wingfield Kennels ; Goldhawk Elsie [ch Cleveland Premier’ son Sioux Chief x ch Duke’ daughter Woodbrook Tess , sis to Guy Greenwood’ ch Benvolio] .
September 9 , 1932 ~ ‘News is also to hand from the United States to the effect that Colonel Titus , of W. Rowbury , Mass. , has imported three puppies from England . They are Roxbury Boy and Milfold Lass , both from Mr Peters’ kennel ; and Goldhawk Elsie , a handsome bitch bred by Mrs Langton . The two former were shipped by Messrs Spratt’s Patent , Ltd , and the last by Mr Fred Hawkings . Colonel Titus is well known in America as a succesful breeder of Bulldogs . Being the fortunate owner of an extensive estate on Cape Cod , he hopes after acquiring a few other bitches and a stud dog , to try out the possibilities of breeding on a large scale .
October 21 , 1933 ~ ‘Captain Guy Samuelson writes ~Much heated argument has appeared in this column and alsewhere upon the relative value of certain Mastiff ‘points’ . For the good of the breed let us for a moment forget ‘points’ and turn to a characteristic of the Mastiff , which should put him in the top-notch of popularity at a time when road hold-ups , bag-schnatching , shop raids , and burglaries are the order of the day .
I mean his use as a guard and companion . Little over twelve months ago , returning from Devon with my wife , we pulled off the road on the downs near Lewis , for a sleep in the car by midnight . After some time , I was awakened by Lady Jane , our bitch [note ~ ch Michael of the Cinque Ports’ dam] , which growled repeatedly . I decided to investigate and sprang out , torch in hand , with Lady Jane which quickly put up two burly roughs from nearby bushes , who were stalking us , unaware of our guard . Never did bandits run so fast , and only my fear of her being run over on the road , prevented Lady Jane from making a ‘kill’ .
October 28 , 1933 ~ ‘ Whilst travelling in the North of England , I had the privilege of inspecting Mr Ben Bennett’ kennel . It is not generally known that Mr Bennett took up Mastiffs as a result of burglary which occurred a few years ago in his mother’ residence. He states that although every house within a considerable radius has been visited by burglars, his own property remains immune and seems likeley to continue so. His advice to all house-holders is ‘Keep a Mastiff’ .
The images are 'double' copied and therefore of less sharpness . If anyone desires a copy of the original , let me know . Time for a Presbyterian mix .
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