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03heritage

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #1 

After reading many posts on this board it seems that there many Mastiff owners on here that enjoy showing thier Mastiffs. My question is, if you are purchasing a Mastiff as a new member of your family as well as to show, how important is it to have a top pick? I'm fully aware of the fact that there is no way to predict exactly how a puppy will turn out BUT there is a reason why breeders want first or first & second or first, second, & third etc. pick.



Reply with quote  #2 
A good show prospect pup might not be what the breeder is looking to keep.
Breeding quality and show quality can be and sometimes are two separate things.



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Reply with quote  #3 
also remember usually the number one dog in the country is not owned by the breeder.. Many times they keep the wrong puppy. lol

What is a pick puppy to one person may not be the pick puppy to someone else.. Pick a puppy based on structure if you want to show. Dont look at  the fact if its a cute puppy or not. Look only at structure.. Sometimes the ugliest puppy will be your best.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #4 
It all depends on the litter!

A good prospect out of a poor litter is not advisable.

If the litter is generally strong, then a secondary "pick" will still stand you in better shape than the former example.

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Reply with quote  #5 
One thing you might keep an open mind about is co-ownership.  Many breeders would like to keep more than just one, but for whatever reason can't.  You could possibly get a top pick puppy by being willing to co-own with the breeder.

I did that with my recent litter.  I only had room to keep one (according to my hubby anyway!!  , but there were two I REALLY wanted to keep.  So one is living with me, and the other is living with the new family but I co-own that one.  The buyer and I came up with a contract that worked for both of us and we both got what we wanted.

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Reply with quote  #6 

All clever answers ........but the real issue is who's pick is it from the litter????????  If it is Aunt Jane's who is blind and never owned a Mastiff..........you still get the pick but it might not Be anything you thought you would get.  Slick Breeders know how to use words well.  The pick of someone's litter might be a pet to many other Breeders also.  Be clear in what you want to do with the Animal........Breeders choose what they need for long term and their goals.......so they do not always pick to keep what would be considered the pick for showing purposes. 

BrianReese

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Reply with quote  #7 

I am new at this breeding thing but I would think if I had a show home for a puppy, placing that puppy would help my kennel just as much as if I kept it. I can't keep them all. Even if placed in a pet home you want them to look and act like a mastiff.


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Reply with quote  #8 
If a buyer is honest in what they want........a breeder can say they have it or not.........we want forever homes if we are good Breeders...........it is foolish to put a hyper pup in a quiet home with no activity ......or a quiet reserved pup in a home with active children........personalities must match up.

Yes Brian, I have made a name in Mastiffs by selling dogs to wonderful people that made them famous for me, and I did not have to do any work to get them that way.  A good Breeder should always think ........they can do more than I want to do........so put the best there where it matters. 


Reply with quote  #9 
Well no dog is perfect and lets assume everything is subjective....not everyone is looking for the same thing - Some will use a beautiful apricot stud just to get apricot into their lines or the dark brindle.....Some may absolutely hate white toes yet others have no real big issues with too much white - personally I hate a cobby dog -some don't seem to mind because they breed them -i never in a million years would myself.
What is a Mastiff to you?Do you care about the standard - which is more important, winning at dog shows or having a dog that best fits the Standard as you understand it.
Do you feel capable of picking the beast Mastiff pup out of a consistent litter?
How important is the animal's personality and temperament to you and your lifestyle.
In showing temperament means everything - so is living with a giant when you have young children.
When I look at pups I have no need to take their personality into account because I am flexible that way - I can yield any which way and type is the most important to me so I pick a pup solely on their looks - but my dog cannot be shown, he does not have the temperament - if I had wanted to show I never would have picked him. But I think he is a nice representation - what I have sitting at my feet and making me happy as a true fancier is more important then ribbons.
Can you have it all? Ya some do but that's called Luck in the Mastiff World.



03heritage

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #10 

All very good comments and are appreciated. I have heard the stories about the breeders picking the the pups that didn't turn out as well as others from the litter but that seems to be few and far between with experienced, knowledgeable breeders. I also understand the cost involved in having a legit breeding program but I wonder why someone would pay $2000 plus for the last pick of a litter. If multiple breeders have litters all of quality and substance along with proper health testing and their prices are comparable, why would you go with the breeder that only had the last or one of the last picks available. I may be wrong but I would think selling the last few pups at the same price as the first few taken would be difficult. The world of Mastiff breeding and how they are priced is relatively new to me as I have only had Rotties & Bullmastiffs. In those instances I have seen pups being sold different ways, either by a specific price for show, breedable, & pet or by pick number ie. fist pick $2000, second & third $1700 etc. Neither of which I would say is better or worse than it seems to be done with Mastiffs, only that it is the breeders prefrence. In the Mastiff world from what I have observed over the past couple of years that I have been really following the breed, they have one set price across the board whether it's first pick or the thirty first pick. I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind the way Mastiffs are priced this way as opposed to the other breeds. I have my opinions on why this is done but I have never bred Mastiffs so my opinion is conjecture at best.

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Reply with quote  #11 

I'm, by no means, an authority but I do have an opinion. My pups go where they fit best. EVEN if they are show potential pups, I will place them in pet homes on limited registration in order for the pup to get the best home. I leave a clause in the contract that the owner CAN petition me to upgrade to show later on if they so choose. That does not mean I will do it...just means I will evaluate on down the road and see if they really are show quality (I'm paranoid about people just wanting to upgrade so they can breed). My show potential puppies will go on co-ownerships until the new owner does all the health testing/showing etc. If there's a doubt between show/pet quality, I ere on the side of caution and sell as limited/pet. Yes, I have one price for all pets and one price for all show prospect. I've seen some litters that have LOTS of nice show pups and others with maybe one good pup...I think it depends on the breeding. I've gotten my best pups when I had second pick. In both cases, first pick ended up being nice as well, but I was not dissappointed in my pups either. I'd be happy with 2nd or 3rd pick from the right breeding from the right breeder. Also, I would not hesitate to pay $2000+ for a show puppy.


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Reply with quote  #12 
in many cases that last puppy is better quality than most if its a good breeding. sorry but Runts have a tendency to turn out to not only be the biggest puppy but sometimes one of the best. many people discount them because they were small at birth which usually only means it was conceived a day or two later than the others.. The same time work and energy goes into every pup as does all the health testing and showing on the parents. I have a pet price and a show price. Like Teresa. I also do most of the picking of the pups as the families tell me what they want and I learn about them and there needs. As Deb said you dont want a rowdy puppy in a calm house and vice verse. I raise them I know what the personalities are. I also will pick the show pups because I only want the best in a show home. Unless it is someone experienced because I know what is a better show puppy than most puppy buyers.  You also cant guarantee that a puppy will turn out to be show quality either. environment plays a very big roll in that also. as does nutrition!


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Yabig

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Reply with quote  #13 
When purchasing from a litter of puppies, you are actually purchasing more than the puppy you see in front of you. I don't mean all the work and expense behind a litter, but I mean you're purchasing essentially the parents of that puppy as well as the dogs in that puppy's pedigree. LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THAT, as that is what you will see in the puppy and future generations that puppy may produce.

It is actually all relative too if you think about it. What about a litter of 3 compared to a litter of oh, let's say 16! Is the last pick out of the litter of 3 better than the last pick of the litter of 16? What about all of the puppies in between?

If breeding well, there will be few differences between the first pup and the last pup in any sized litter, as a good breeding will usually produce a consistent litter for the most part, whether it be a heavy line breeding or a very carefully considered outcross breeding. It will all come down to what the pup is being used for and personal preference as to how they get distributed or kept back. 

Sometimes it's just a fact that a person who had 2nd pick and wanted a pet not a show quality pup sat down and the first pup in their lap went home with them. It may have been the biggest puppy there or what some people refer to as the "runt" (I HATE THAT TERM since they are only the runt for a brief moment in time and over extended time can and have become the biggest in the litter!) 

Biggest is many times not best, they may just happen to be the bully at the food dish. The worst puppy (again not neccessarily the smallest!) from the best litter can go on to win a roomful of ribbons. Remember not every puppy from every litter is shown and the one sitting on the couch many times can beat the one in the ring. They just happened to go to a pet home and the one winning their butt off may have been sent home over and over a loser if their pet sibling showed up! But you know what? That dog is still winning, because even though it may not have been the best in that litter, it's the best of what's out there!

My current biggest puppy was the smallest at birth....in a few more weeks that could easily change since the smallest one didn't start that way. It's all in the genes. The smallest one will probably end up in a pet home, yet I see some very promising structure on them, but I bet nobody looking for a show pup will overlook the size factor....even though relative to their siblings they are small now, ALL of them will end up being VERY big dogs, yes, even the runt because the size is there behind the litter.

You can see some basic structure and potential before they leave for their new home, but a lot of factors will go into what that puppy will be. Nutrition, environment and genetic programming. You try to make sure your show buyers have better structure overall to start with and fewer cosmetic flaws than those going to a pet home if possible, but I would never discount that last puppy to go on to do great things. 

If you take the worst pup at 8 weeks from an excellent breeding, I would take that puppy ANY day over the best pup in a mediocre breeding because no matter what, the best mediocre breeding can only be mediocre at best (Maybe slightly better if you try real hard with proper exercise and nutrition, but there certainly will be a huge limit on what they will end up being since it is just not there behind the parents of that puppy to begin with and yes there is the "rare" exception or fluke, but the chances of that getting passed on are still slim at best. Talk about gambling!). You have a VERY good shot with the "worst" pup in an excellent breeding to accomplish much in a breeding program or show situation or heck even having a sound, healthy pet that actually represents a good specimen of the breed!

I know I'm rambling, but the last puppy from an excellent, well bred litter should cost the same as the first, since they essentially ALL have the potential and are worth just as much as they all will be sound, healthy, good representations of the Mastiff breed no matter if you're taking them around the country to every show or having them warm your feet at the computer. Remember the first and last puppy all have the same PARENTS.

Feel free to read the following story or skip it as I know this is a long post and Story, but here is one experience I've had that I learned a lot from....
 
When I had Goldens, I was so caught up in getting "the best" puppy (even though I wasn't even showing at the time), I went to the top producing kennel in the country that had their lines based on the top winning Golden of all time. I picked out the beautiful father of the litter from a picture I wanted my puppy to look like, signed up for his next litter and paid TOP DOLLAR to make sure I got FIRST PICK of the litter. When I went to go get my puppy, there were dogs everywhere in the giant house, many in crates, others outside penned in on the spacious acreage. What I didn't see were a whole lot of people actually spending a whole lot of time with any of them.....The grounds were beautfiul and they had "kennel help" but again I didn't see one cuddle come from anyone, much less a kind word to any of the dogs (THEY WERE NOT ABUSIVE, but)....

When we were led to the room with our litter, other people literally had to wait in the hall until my husband and I had made our choice, and yes we paid more for the privelge. They were ALL adorable. If I remember there were something like 7-10 puppies. We sat with the puppies for a few minutes. I had brought a tennis ball with me as I read somewhere that if they were willing to fetch they were more willing to work with people. One girl immediatley ran for the ball and yes, she was cute, but we had decided we wanted a male. The first male that went for the ball, we scooped up and claimed him as ours. I was convinced I had the BEST puppy since after all I got first pick and he was the ONLY male that went for the ball! Everyone else would get a dog that wasn't so willing to please them...we won!!!

I remember clearly sitting across from a table with the kennel owner as she counted my cash out carefully to make sure I had the agreed upon amount as our new baby sat squirmming in my lap. She then just let us leave. No good bye to the puppy or to us for that matter....Even though I had sent updates on the puppy, not one response in all the years we had him....

We brought him home, introduced him to our other Golden sitting at home and loved him. He grew up to be absolutley GORGEOUS (looking back now, WAY too overdone all around. Too much fur to the point he had extra skin hanging in front to make it appear to have a more glorious coat, major bone, and the sweetest face, but bigger than the Goldens I see today in the ring). After some time with him it was pointed out that his little "seam" in his fur going between his eyes was a fault that wouldn't be overlooked if we ever did show him, so I decided I'm gonna do agility....Now this is a GOLDEN RETRIEVER, and he will be great at it since he must be so willing to work with people since he fetched a ball.....

I happened to have one of the best agility teachers in the country teaching agility classes not 20 minutes from me (many of you may have seen her winning the top agility challenges on TV).

After a few classes, it was clear he was NOT willing to work with people (but he sure did FETCH A LOT!!! LOL!) The teacher told me he was the laziest Golden she had ever seen. He literally would TRIP begrudingly through the tire obstacle, but he'd sure get that ball! Over and over and over and over.....What he really was, was obsessive compulsive over the ball and could care less about what we wanted him to do........(yes, he had gone through obedience training, but that obedience school should've been my first clue).

Although he was beautiful and we loved him anyway, we realized many times over he was NOT the best puppy......I also found out after the fact that the father was indeed "a nut" and retired from his show career early because of it (I should have found that out BEFORE....) and that seam in his fur and other flaws we later found out about came from the Mother I never paid any attention to (never mind she contributed 50% of the genes). Had I put those factors together, plus what I had seen and not seen (nobody paying a lot of attention to any of the dogs, etc.), I would have realized this breeding wasn't worth top dollar.

I should have found easy going parents that fit the breed standard from a caring, reputable breeder that wasn't just cranking out puppies (even with a good reputation) for the money and that took the time to make sure the puppies were well socialized and gone with that. I'm sure in the long run I would've gotten so much more out of that kind of puppy and therefore would've had the BEST one, even if it was the last one in the litter. It would have been worth the original purchase price if we had gotten a better bred puppy that we could truly enjoy as "just a pet".....

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Reply with quote  #14 

I think it depends on your relationship with the breeder. I fully trusted my breeder so she picked my puppy based on my wants. However, If I didn't know the breeder I would not want them to pick a puppy for me. I would want their opinion but I certainly would like the final decision. Show home or pet home I think they should be priced the same.


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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
However, If I didn't know the breeder I would not want them to pick a puppy for me. I would want their opinion but I certainly would like the final decision. 


OK here is a true story.. Lady wanted a show puppy. I raised the litter for the breeders. Which I have done many times. The breeder and I both picked the best two  show puppy for them to choice from. They came down (they new mastiffs and had mastiffs). They didnt like those two they wanted a different one..lol the breeder went ahead and sold them the puppy they wanted. even though neither of us thought it was a show puppy.. It in fact didnt turn out to be a show puppy and they were unhappy and had a fit about it.. Now remember they were told not to pick that puppy.. I personally would not have sold it to them but it wasn't my litter. End result is they should have listened because the two they should have picked from were awesome..lol Even when you think you know more they breeder usually knows their lines better than you and can tell you what would be the best puppy for what you want.

So I do have a cheaper price for a pet. Its a discount to spay/neuter and its what it would cost to do the surgery. I would much rather any puppy regardless if its show go to a good pet home. Why because a good pet home will love the dog. A show home they are much more critical of the puppy. They are also faster to get rid of it if it is not a show puppy when it grows up.. But funny thing is I see a lot of pets in the ring that should not be there.
So I would sell to a pet home at a cheaper price over a show home any day! Thats just me..       

 

 

 

PS great post Nikki.


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03heritage

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Reply with quote  #16 
More great input. Nikki, no rambling in that post, all of your information was great.
How then do you go about conveying to a potential buyer that the last pick may be just as good as the first pick? As you said "but I bet nobody looking for a show pup will overlook the size factor" What flaws can you really see at eight weeks of age that are there for good and what flaws are there that have the potential to fade? Size,Toplines can get better or worse but at eight weeks is there enough there to have better than a guess? What about movement? How hard is it to forcast movement on a pup that is only eight weeks old when their belly is still cleaning your floors?
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Reply with quote  #17 
Actually in most cases what you see is what you get.. Look at some of the age progression photos on this site. You will see the pup grow up. You will see they go through the gangliest but they are what you see. Topline, rear, stifles, shoulders, head. Its all there, if you know what your looking at.. FYI also many times the biggest puppy will end up being the smallest at adult age..lol Thats why I said you look at structure only. You also have to know the parents and grandparents.. BOTH SIDES.

Genetics is that. If the parents dont have it neither will the pups. You can tell if a pup is straight in the rear You can tell if it throws a foot out.. Its all there, if again you know what you are looking at/for. You have to get past the aawww cute puppy and look at what the puppy is. If the puppy is hockey at 8 weeks it will be hocky as an adult.  Now can to much crating cause a puppy to turn out hockey? YES. its not just genetics its also environment like I said. You can take the best puppy and ruin it by not doing things correctly.

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Reply with quote  #18 
Great post Nikki.  I remember a gentleman who was referred to me called his friend back and said .......her Mastiffs are much more expensive than the newspaper says of 500-1000 dollars.  I thought it was well said what the friend said since he already had one of my dogs........he said you are paying for her name, the dogs in the background, the warranty they will be genetically free of defeats and her knowledge.  When you need something she is there.  You see we give that to all of the pups.

You also forget a Breeder strives for consistency.  In many litters there is no pick.......each one does something of excellence.  I never had a "No" on a stud because my Bitches made pups that put 50% or more on the score card for Hall of Fame for the Stud. 

Pick Pup is just a term that should be referred to as the best pup for YOUR needs.  I know it is hard to believe.........but no one up until 2 years ago when I got the Internet even saw a pic of the pup or litter ........and the first time they saw it was when they arrived at the airport to pick the pup up.  Everyone was always pleased and they did well.  I liked it better that way.  No one can explain in a few hours of viewing why the pup you think will work better for people just does............where the unexperienced understands.  You are selling trust also.
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Reply with quote  #19 

EXCELLENT post Nikki!!!!!!


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Reply with quote  #20 
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Reply with quote  #21 
If I know that the person who had the first pick is someone I respect, it makes me a little dubious about getting the second pick, but I'll look anyway. I'm usually flexible about which sex I want, so it may be the person who had first pick wanted a dog, and there is a knockout bitch in the litter. It may be that there are two fine pups in the litter, with slightly different virtues...in any case, worth a look. I've never seen a litter that I had more than a toss-up beyond 2 of each sex, and I have seen many litters. I follow the old rule that at 6 weeks you can see pretty much the adult, barring disasters. Wide head, deep muzzle, big bone, good length, unfaulty movement, not cowering: these are the things I look for.
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Reply with quote  #22 
Often the first pick is claimed by the breeder, or the one with the fattest wallet.

It doesn't always help a breeding program either.

In fact, one could make a case that keeping a pick of litter pup can be a negative, especially if it doesn't turn out as one had hoped. Now, there has been an investment made in this pup and a breeder might be tempted to recoup some of their time & money spent on this dog by breeding to it, even though it is unwarranted from a conformational point of view.

Rationalizations then kick in and the breeding becomes justified by one excuse or another.

Had there been no pick of litter kept, if the breeder wanted to breed, they would have to seek the best fit, instead of the most cost effective fit, or most expedient, in theory that is.

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"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
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Reply with quote  #23 
When I was puppy shopping I had what I wanted mapped out in my mind. I looked at pics of parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. I looked at them as puppies, and saw how they progressed as adults. When I went to go see the litter, I knew what I was looking for. It wasn't necessarily the first pic, but it was my pick. 
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Reply with quote  #24 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer

It doesn't always help a breeding program either.

In fact, one could make a case that keeping a pick of litter pup can be a negative, especially if it doesn't turn out as one had hoped. Now, there has been an investment made in this pup and a breeder might be tempted to recoup some of their time & money spent on this dog by breeding to it, even though it is unwarranted from a conformational point of view.

Rationalizations then kick in and the breeding becomes justified by one excuse or another.



An ethical breeder that does it for the betterment of the breed would not breed to a pup that did not turn out just to recoup some money, IMHO.

And, first pick of the litter is not that important in my opinion.  You have to look for a puppy that will meet YOUR expectations or a puppy that will complement your other dogs (if you have other dogs) in the future (pedigree, temperament and conformation wise)... so I guess it is your expectations again but for you breeding program, this time.


 
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Reply with quote  #25 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandragon
in many cases that last puppy is better quality than most if its a good breeding. sorry but Runts have a tendency to turn out to not only be the biggest puppy but sometimes one of the best. many people discount them because they were small at birth which usually only means it was conceived a day or two later than the others..

The puppy that I kept of my last litter was the smallest one of the litter but, I did not take that into consideration.  Instead, I remembered the pedigree behind her and, she is simply terrific (only 6 months old now)!!

Denny

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 861
Reply with quote  #26 
In theory, the breeder should already have goals set prior to any breeding, unless they are just breeding puppies to sell.  They could, in theory, not have a puppy from a breeding that fits into those goals and all the puppies would be sold, pick or not.  Doesn't happen often, but it does happen more than folks would admit.  Statistics are against having a puppy that fits in with the kennel goals on every single litter.  Again, in theory, the puppy the breeder wants is the puppy that fits into the breeders ideal for their goal.  Remember when you are talking one litter - it is the pick puppy of that specific litter.  The breeder may of had a litter just prior to the one you are looking at that was a much better litter specifically for the breeder that had more than one or two pups that fit into their goal and the litter after the one you are looking at may have more than one or two puppies that fit into their goals.  So the pick puppy for me and the pick puppy for you and the pick puppy for the breeder may all come from different litters.  That is one of many reasons I'm dead set against deposits.  How can I be ready for a puppy at the exact time the darling puppies are ready to go home every time I'm ready for a puppy from that specific pedigree.  That is one reason patience is so important. 

Then there is the pick puppy for the stud owner if they want a puppy instead of payment.  If this transaction is done across country how is the puppy breeder suppose to know exactly what the stud owner is wanting to fit into their goals for their kennel?  What if the stud owner agrees to take a puppy and they receive the puppy or see pics and it's just not going to fit into their goals - and that is a very good possibility if say they only want an apricot or only want a reverse brindle or a myraid of other reasons.

And these are just a few examples of how the line on the pick puppy moves around quite a bit.  Let say as in the last example the stud owner goes ahead and takes the puppy that doesn't fit into the goals of their kennel.  Then you've got a pick puppy for somebody but not where it's living now.  That pic puppy could become available for sale with a great possibility the buyer could not see either parent and it was not bred on the property and that turns many buyers off, if they do not understand the entire situation and know the breeders.  Would a buyer pay full price in that situation?  That could become a very advantageous situation for some lucky buyer if they are in the right place at the right time.  And yes it happens.  It could also be a very bad situation for the buyer and the puppy if the buyer doesn't really understand what they are getting or if either breeder was leaning a little more to the dishonest side of the spectrum.

The pick puppy is only the pick puppy if it fits into a persons goals.  If the litter is all females and the stud owner wants a male - to the stud owner there is no pick puppy, but the breeder wants females and so the breeder might be of the opinion the entire litter is very good and most of the puppies are pick puppies. 

Personal experience has taught me the pick pup for the breeder is generally not the pick pup for me.  I love the males with the gigantor heads and big ol lazy bodies that can jump up from a sound sleep and tear off like there's a pile of fresh bones in the back of the yard.  I love hearing and feeling the sound of them running and it takes weight to make that vibration.  So when the breeder is looking for structure and good combinations of that structure, I'm looking for temperment first, health second and structure 3rd.  A breeder might move health a little further down the scale to get a more perfectly structured dog, especially when the heath issue is say allergies.  I wouldn't do that because I'm the one taking the dog to the vet for the allergy shots all the time, but the breeder got the structure they were looking to attain and I got a great big ol droolie with quick wit, loves to tease and fits perfectly into my life style because he likes to sleep more than anything else in the world . . .lol.   Friends come to my house and ask how do you get 'him' up so I can really see him.  Would that fit into your household?  Not if you want a dog that likes to go with you everywhere and never gets a spare moment to themselves.

So when a new person comes on and wants to know how to pick a puppy - we can't tell them specifically because the perfect puppy for me is very very different than the perfect puppy for the stud owner, different than the perfect puppy for the breeder and different from the perfect puppy for you.

And how important is the pick puppy for showing?  I've got one laying at my feet right now that is bigger, better behaved, more willing to please and still has the walk of a much younger dog than his age than any (and yes I said any) dog I've seen in the show ring.  I don't know how many times I've thought to myself, why would someone take a dog that doesn't like strangers to a dog show where's there's thousands of strangers.  Same thing when I see a dogs handsome face and then wonder where the rest of his body went because they just do not have the substance that defines a mastiff.  Show dogs may have started out as pick of the litter but if you feed them trash and never take them out in public you will not have a good dog - you will have a hot mess that will take someone hundreds of hours of time and energy to fix.  BTW the one at my feet was one of the last 3 of the litter that supposedly chased cats and was very stubborn and wouldn't learn.  I have a big ol kitty kitty that dares anything to chase him and I only had a problem teaching him one thing -downs - thought he'd never learn that command.
SteveOifer

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Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 25,158
Reply with quote  #27 

Quote:

An ethical breeder that does it for the betterment of the breed would not breed to a pup that did not turn out just to recoup some money, IMHO.



You'd be surprised at how many breeders who regard themselves as ethical have done this , or worse!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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