AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/12/12 at 11:47 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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Hi everyone! I haven't posted anything in a while because well, I don't have a Mastiff. If you remember, I lost my sweet boy, Dozer on Oct. 31st, 2011 at a young 13 months old. 
The reason I am posting is because I need advice on what I should do and/or your opinion on the situation. First, I want to start off by saying that I am not breeder bashing, or bashing anyone. I simply have never had anything like this happen before & I'm a little shocked that I have been disregarded & lied to so many times, starting right from his birth September 2010. I would say 98%, if not more, of the contact, was me contacting the breeder. I felt as if I was a constant bother to her.
I can't go completely into detail because this would be even longer than it already is going to be. I wish I could post everything from the very beginning so that you could see the MANY discrepancies & lies to be able to make an accurate assessment of it all.
Dozer was purchased as a Show potential puppy for $2,500. I know this is the standard purchase price & these are living beings & no one is at fault for his defect. I knew something was wrong when I got him, but was given reassurance & since I was a 1st time Mastiff owner, I swallowed my gut instinct & hoped everyone was right about him. Turns out everything we were seeing was just leading up to his diagnosis of the kidney failure. He was a mere 72 pounds when he was finally put to rest. He was never able to gain weight properly or reach his full potential due to his kidneys. He spent a year of his life wasting away & slowly dying. :'(
Here is the problem: Dozer was born with congenital kidney disease that resulted in him ultimately dying. I noticed from the day I got him that his feet were turned in, almost pigeon toed, and the wrist joints were very tight. It was almost like talons in the way they looked. His front legs were always shaking & giving out. He literally pee'd every 10 minutes, 24/7! He even urinated in his sleep on multiple occasions & didn't even wake up.
I probably spent more money in Bounty paper towels than his purchase price! The amount of urine & frequency was unreal!
We dealt with this for the 11 months we had him. He couldn't help it. Every single day he had to be bathed because of the frequent urination. He would wake up wet at times as well.
I contacted his breeder who said to take him to be checked for a UTI. I did. No UTI present, but the vet said his urine was diluted & it may just be that he has immature kidneys/bladder & he would probably grow out of it.
I cannot explain the hours spent day & night researching these problems with the urination & the really bad feet issues.
I kept in constant contact with his breeder with updates, questions, etc. Although she was nice in the emails (because we never spoke on the phone) I sort of had this feeling that she didn't want to really be bothered with any of this, although that's aside the point.
I told her I would bring him to HER state to be evaluated by HER as far as his feet & I would also bring him to HER vet or vet of her choosing to be evaluated. She never responded to this. So, I was pretty much stuck guessing.
I can't explain the feelings & exhaustion I had over the 11 months we had him. Although he was DEEPLY loved by me & my family, it was hard seeing that he couldn't be taken just anywhere like I had hoped because he urinated SO much so frequently. I feel like he didn't get the life he so deserved!
I did everything I could! I contacted the Great Dane Lady over his feet (didn't hear back), called vets, took him to different vets, researched endlessly, etc. Day in & day out, knowing I would wake up to a river of pee to be cleaned up, come home from work to pee to be cleaned up, multiple baths, it was very exhausting & daunting...but I LOVED him very much! He was VERY special to me!
I also told the breeder about his weight He seemed to be on the (very) small side! At 6 months he was 56 pounds. He developed a severe under bite! It was so undershot, I could fit my thumb between the teeth & it actually caused his top teeth to constantly cut into his bottom gums.
So, he didn't turn out to be show...but that was the least of my concern at the time. I KNEW something wasn't right, but when I would email, I felt more or less like the response was 'sorry about your luck, he didn't turn out.'
I basically felt as though I had no support system & no one GENUINELY cared! The nice words were there, but that was it...no actual help in wanting to get to the bottom of it all. I would think if I was a breeder & something like this was going on & never got better & the puppy buyer says, "I'll bring him to you so you can see for yourself & maybe direct me. Let your vet look at him", just ANYTHING, I would think they would be all for it! Maybe I am wrong?
From what I understand, the feet/leg issues may have had to do with the chronic kidney disease. The calcium/phosphorus is not absorbed properly due to the kidney disease causing the bones/joints, etc to not form properly. I may be quoting that wrong. (?)
Before knowing anything about this, he was switched to multiple different foods to try to fix the feet, resulting in vomiting, & 12 or more bouts of diarrhea per day. It was so bad I had to just switch him back to TOTW Pacific Ocean Stream food because it didn't cause those problems.
Getting to the end of the story, he started having really bad hematuria & actually passing chunks of tissue. Took him to the vet again, urinalysis showed again the dilute urine & bloodwork showed he was in full blown kidney failure. BUN didn't even register on the machine, as it was greater than 130. Apparently the dilute urine (just like on the urinalysis when he was a small puppy) is a good sign of kidney disease. I was recommended to have him put to sleep right then, but I just couldn't! I had to sort through it, see if there was anything that could help him, but there wasn't. :'(
This was constant for 11 months. I felt very alone in dealing with all of this!
This was supposed to have been the last dog I would own per the agreement with my husband. We had just lost our older dog not too long before & it was very hard on us! My husband didn't want us to go through that again, especially the kids!
He completely thought I had gone crazy wanting to spend $2,500 for "just a dog", but I assured him I had thoroughly researched the breed, and the breeder & couldn't find anything to question it. She appeared to be a very reputable breeder. I told him I could pay $500 and get one from a BYB & have a slew of health issues & heart ache, or pay big now & enjoy our new family member for the next decade.
As it turns out, I may have been better off going with a BYB. Maybe then I would have a happy, alive dog. I'll never know I guess.
So here is the part that I am having trouble with. When I told the breeder of his final diagnosis & that he would need put to sleep so he would not suffer, she told me at that time she was sorry, etc. She also said she would give me a "replacement puppy" once one was available.
My contract goes into detail about the 2 year health guarantee on hips, elbows, etc.
BUT, it also says, "~This Mastiff puppy is guaranteed to be in good health at the time of sale. It has had a minimum of its first puppy innoculations, regular deworming and microchip ID. The Buyer agrees to have the puppy examined by a veterinarian within three days of taking possession. Should the puppy be deemed unhealthy, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Breeder, the puppy may be returned to the Breeder with the AKC paperwork, and the Buyer may choose a refund of the purchase price or another puppy of equal value, once one becomes available."
There was obviously something wrong when I got him, the actual problem just didn't reveal itself until later. I was just hoping he would "grow out of it" like was thought.
So, I agreed to a "replacement puppy". There were some breedings, not sure of all the details on the other dogs, but I wanted a puppy from Dozer's mother. To me, she was the type I wanted & had good health testing. I was never contacted by the breeder to tell me that a breeding had been done, I actually inquired because I seen it on the website. She had only a singleton, in which the breeder kept. Therefore, no "replacement puppy".
She was bred again & I was told by the breeder that the ultrasound only showed ONE puppy again this breeding. So, I wouldn't get a puppy from this breeding either. The other female was bred around the same time & also had only one puppy, that I was told did not survive unfortunately.
So, since the breeder said she wanted to make things right since Dozer was a sick boy, had so many problems with him & we lost him at such a young age, I asked her if it would be ok with her if she just sent me a refund of the purchase price so my family could go ahead & get a puppy this year. (Also, my contract said if the puppy was not healthy at the time of purchase--which he wasn't--the buyer could return the dog--which wasn't an option--or could get a puppy from another litter, or a FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE).
The breeder agreed to this. I emailed the breeder to inquire again about it because I had not heard from her. Although she had previously told me she never makes money on a breeding, is usually in the hole, but has never made anymore than $1,000, she tells me that she will have to send me the refund amount with the next breeding. We pretty much both sent very "matter of fact" emails about this. If she doesn't make any money, how can she send it with the next breeding of selling the puppies???
She goes on to say that her dog that had the ultrasound that only showed one puppy, actually gave birth to FOUR puppies & if at least 2 of the puppies made it, she would sell them both instead of keeping one & would be able to refund the full purchase price of Dozer.
Well, the next email that I get after contacting her, she states that she cannot afford to send me the full purchase price right now & that she could only send me $500 right now. And that I would have to wait for a profitable litter before she could send the rest. When will that be if she "never makes a profit"?
So many contradictions that I do not feel I can trust that she will do what she has said.
She says that the $500 will be coming out of her savings account & cannot afford to send any more than that right now to "buy another family a puppy".
With that being said about not having any money, i was also told of the enormous cost of breeding the females. There are breedings planned for the Fall/Winter, where will that money come from?
Now, with the last email, I was not told that the money was coming from savings, it's now coming from the 2 puppies sold, but she is in the hole, so she can still only send $500.
Here's where it gets tricky. I told her my husband would be in her area & could pick up the check if it had not already been mailed. She said it had already been mailed. That was over a week ago. I emailed her early yesterday to let her know I still have not received anything in the mail and have had no response.
I also know for a fact, that although she has said she has no money, she went out & bought not one, but TWOhorses when she sold her 2 puppies. Not a cheap pet to keep! Not to mention, they weren't free! So, where did that money come from? Was it her savings account or the sale of the puppies?
So, my point is, I don't think I will see a "replacement puppy" a refund or anything! I could've had a healthy pound puppy for $65 that would still be alive!
If she didn't want to replace the puppy or refund the money, she should've said so, not string me along for the ride. It was bad enough losing my boy, then to have to be lied to & strung along.
This has been going on for months now. I did not ever plan to let my story be heard, but I don't know what to do or who to ask.
Mastiffs are very expensive, not just in purchase, but their care as well. But losing my boy, especially so early, the pain that is felt is priceless!
My family is very much ready to fill our home & hearts with the sweet love of a Mastiff once again!
I am hoping you guys can give me some insight on this. I am prepared for bashing, but would prefer your honest opinions instead.
How do you think should this situation be handled?
Do you think I have been patient or am being impatient with this? I feel that I have been very patient (for many reasons that I can't go into right now), but this is an unfamiliar situation to me & I'm not sure if I should give it more time or what? At the same time, I don't feel I can really trust his breeder to do what she says she will. She doesn't keep in contact with me unless it's to answer my email. Should I just let it go?
I would greatly appreciate any guidance. 
Thanks so much for reading my very long story! 
Believe me, I spared MANY details!!!
Thanks in advance!
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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Tracy
Moderator
Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 7,559
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| Posted 07/12/12 at 11:58 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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Start start off with a registered letter giving her thirty days to refund the complete purchase price or you will start legal proceedings, and then do it. File in your home court system unless it is addressed in her coNtract
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Ranchlands Mastiffs
http://www.ranchlandsmastiffs.com
Member MCOA, SSMF, FAME
Rescue Volunteer SSMR
If you dont rescue, Dont Breed.
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
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h
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 3,842
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:22 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Maybe one of our members is an attorney with some contract experience. If you are out there, please give Angie a hand. She deserves it.
H
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 369
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:30 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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First thing I want to say is how very sorry I am to hear of you losing your boy Dozer. I also have a mastiff named Dozer. After reading your story, sad to say, but I don't think you will ever see a replacement pup or any money back from the breeder. You can try taking the breeder to court, I don't know where you live, but I know in my state small claimS court has to be for at least 2500.00. Don't know if you have to get a lawyer or if you can file charges on your own. Truth be told just how many cases like this actually make it to court?
Would you really want another pup from this breeder? Sounds like they are having trouble with having a healthy litter, and after all you went through with your Dozer, would you want to take the chances of the health being anissue again?
You took the pup knowing in your gut something was wrong, not faulting you, cause trust me, I have done the same thing.
I would just research and talk and talk to breeders to you find one you are comfortable with, watch their sites, see how many litters are being put out, see if there is back to back breedings and how many litters the female has had.
Cut your loses with this breeder and take your time, hoping that the next time you find a breeder that actually cares about bettering the breed.
We plan on getting another Mastiff in a year or so, our Dozer is not what or looks like a mastiff should be (in my humble opinion). I have found a breeder that I like the looks of their dogs, I am taking my time with this breeder, have friended her on Facebook, have chatted with her and will visit her kennels a few times before I get a pup from her. Its no gaurentee(sp) that I am getting a healthy , great temperament pup, but I like to think that I have a better chance
I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do......and I am sorry about your boy crossing the rainbow bridge way to early .
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Sue Havelka |
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 933
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:49 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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I'm so sorry for your loss. At least Dozer got to spend his short life with someone that was trying to do the absolute best for him....
As for his breeder, take her to court. She couldn't be bothered to help with your/her puppy. Time to send a message that that's NOT ok!
Hope you win and hope you find a wonderful breeder and puppy next time around.
__________________
Christin
Member MCOA
Mom to Bravo son of
Intl Ch Dixie Rockstarr (RIP baby),
Fiona our pound puppy,
Chloe our kitty,
And 3 handsome gentlemen Brockton, Christopher and Jordan |
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,429
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:50 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Should the puppy be deemed unhealthy, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Breeder, the puppy may be returned to the Breeder with the AKC paperwork, and the Buyer may choose a refund of the purchase price or another puppy of equal value, once one becomes available."
This is where the grey area begins, as a breeder can claim the pup was fine at the time it was delivered. It may not matter what the truth might be, since proof is needed in such matters when going to court. Was it CLEARLY attributable to the breeder? The pup was not returned to the breeder. Purchase price refund, can be seen as being worded if only another pup is available. So many entanglements and interpretations can be made with a transaction that did take place, with goods & money passing hands in one direction. No partial refund to show possible culpability yet.
There are caveats when purchasing dogs, even from breeders that have had good reputations. Things can change rapidly for some and finances, or attitudes can result in agreements that get broken. Contracts can be nebulous under these conditions, as it can depend on the judge & lawyers handling the suit. The cost of going to court is also a firewall of sorts. So nothing clear cut in your situation, or an easy fix. Sorry to say. Reality sucks at times!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:53 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Thank all of you!
Sue, someone said the exact same thing! I wasn't really thinking about that at first, but the more I got to thinking about it I thought the same thing. I think the relationship between a buyer & breeder should be comfortable, like a friend/mentor. I didn't feel that way at all. I'm sure maybe others do, but that was just how I felt.
I think this may have been a fluke thing. Things happen when you're bringing life into this world. But I don't care for the way I've been dealt with. His breeder pretty much sees this as a favor & says she is not actually obligated to do anything, but is doing it out of the morally right thing to do. But once it was time, I guess she decided she wanted to spend the money on horses & other things for her family. I guess she sees this as "buying a puppy for another family", when she's not doing that. She's REFUNDING the money that *I* paid for a HEALTHY puppy, Show quality aside.
She can do what she wants with her money, but if she truly wanted to make this right, I don't think she would've changed her mind the minute she decided what she wanted for herself was more important.
I'm trying to stay as "composed" as I can lol. I'm trying to just give the facts and not my personal opinions, but it's VERY hard when it's something so close to my heart!
But, like you said, healthy puppy or sick puppy, is this a breeder I want tied to the rest of my dogs life should I chose a "replacement puppy"? I'm sure you know my answer.
I was hoping to have the refund soon so that I could purchase a puppy from another breeder. It doesn't look like I will have it by then. Guess I will need a plan B. :/
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:01 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Oh, just wanted to add. I did research the breeder! I thought I was dealing with a "reputable" breeder. Just testing your dogs does NOT make someone reputable! I didn't find anything negative, but then again, I guess it takes one person to speak out before others may share their stories as well.
I have been battling this uneasy feeling for months now. I didn't want to post anything at all, but I know there is usually good advice on the forum, so where better to turn?
I don't even want to go the legal route because I would hate to ruin anyone's name/reputation since it would be a legal record. A breeder is able to continue breeding and get referrals by their reputation & word of mouth. I don't want to hurt anyone or go through the ordeal of legal proceedings. But, I am more than willing to hear your advice & take it from there. I guess I need to stop responding with my heart & other peoples feelings in mind & react with my head & consider only me & my family.
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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GinaG
POWER POSTER
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 2,967
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:06 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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I agree with all of the above..you were naive and innocent and she took you for a ride. NO reputable breeder would let a buyer and puppy suffer like that.
This sounds like a perfect court case, but I would do what Tracy said and send a letter from you and your attorney.
I'm sorry you had to go through this. I'm so sorry for how Dozer suffered too...may I ask why you bought him if something was not right from the get go? Did your vet help? Will he help?
This sounds like a bitter lesson and you are not the first or last to have this happen to you. Petshops and BYB's do this all the time.
Good luck Angi.
Gina
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:10 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Steve, yes there is a LOT of grey area! I did tell her within a couple of days of his urinating issues & feet. She recommended him to see the vet for a urinalysis. It showed diluted urine, which is commonly a sign of kidney disease. Wish I would've known that then!
As far as a puppy "being available". There have been at least 2 breedings that I know of. She kept the first one because it was a singleton. I didn't say anything, after all it costs money to breed.
The 2nd breeding she said showed one puppy yet again, but she delivered 4 puppies, not one...but unfortunately lost 2 of them. But when she thought there was only one to begin with, she was going to keep that singleton as well instead of offering it to me as the "available puppy".
That's when I decided I would just ask for the refund instead so I could get another this year instead of next year. I figured if there continues to be singletons & she keeps them all, what do I do then?!
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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h
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 3,842
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:12 AM | Reply with quote #11 |
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If you get screwed by someone, you should never worry about their reputation or well being. You were screwed.
This post should become a warning to all that might get screwed by this person in the future.
We will all benefit from knowing who this breeder is.
H
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:14 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Also, she did apologize that the puppy she bred has caused my family so much heartache. She apologized that he had so many problems and was ill.
She acknowledged that he was born with the condition. Then went back & forth on the matter. BUT, I will say this. I "puppy check" consists of all of 5-15 minutes & unless the breeder or puppy buyer tell the vet there is something wrong, there is no need in that short amount of check-up that the vet feels the need to run tests! NO tests were performed while in the care of the breeder. Therefore, they can say they were healthy, or not, but if the vet didn't test for anything or do an ultrasound, bloodwork, or urinalysis, the vet can't actually say that it truly is a "healthy" puppy!
So whether she knew something was wrong or not, if the vet wasn't made aware, they wouldn't have tested for anything.
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:17 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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You would probably be shocked if you knew, H. :/ But, it's NOT Linda! lol Don't wanna scare you! lol
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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GinaG
POWER POSTER
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 2,967
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:26 AM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Angi...nothing shocks me anymore about Mastiff "breeders" There are many so called popular kennels that have churned out ill dogs. If you are telling the truth and you have not bashed anyone, then you are not liable or slandering. (I watch a lot of Judge Judy). If the breeder stood by her puppy and was diligent in helping you wouldn't be coming to a computer for help. ...you need legal counsel first and foremost to see if you have a case. I hope you saved everything.
Good luck ...I would fight it and learn from this. Not everyone is as they seem, I have been around a LONG time and know this to be true.
so sad for you at this time...hope you get some results and answers.
Gina
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gina anelli |
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,429
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:45 AM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: That's when I decided I would just ask for the refund instead so I could get another this year instead of next year. I figured if there continues to be singletons & she keeps them all, what do I do then?!
It doesn't matter if you are right!
What matters is the interpretation of the contract in court.
If the breeder decides to withhold your money, you are out of luck, even though you may be 100% correct in your understanding of the matter and the verbal promises made.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 01:57 AM | Reply with quote #16 |
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It really sucks when someone can be so heartless & selfish!
Especially when it comes from someone that is well known in the Mastiff community!
This is an all around crappy situation! I think if she truly loves the breed & genuinely cared as much as she said, she would make things right in a timely manner, not when it's convenient when she clearly has the means to do so! I don't know her financial situation, but I do know that if I was financially struggling, I certainly wouldn't go out & buy 2 horses in the same breath I'm saying I can't afford it! She could've sent the money with what she paid to buy those horses! But, that doesn't benefit her needs I guess!
It REALLY sucks knowing I spent MY HARD EARNED money to buy a $2,500 special needs dog that I was only able to have for 11 months that broke our hearts! Maybe if her kids were done the same way mine have been done, she would feel differently! I have FOUR children to console & explain things to! UGH...just SO frustrating! Why can't people just have a heart!
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 02:00 AM | Reply with quote #17 |
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Sorry, I wasn't taking it out on anyone here, I'm just venting. When I start thinking about it I get upset all over again!
Alrighty...step awaaaay from the emotion! lol I'll try and maintain myself from here on out!
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,429
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 02:05 AM | Reply with quote #18 |
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Angi,
Life can be unfair and people can lose lots of money, just look at the Bernie Madoff episode!
So you dust yourself off, decide to sue, or not to sue and learn from the experience!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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Gammonwood
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 120
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 06:32 AM | Reply with quote #19 |
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Hi Angi,
It's sounds like your puppy had a condition called Chondrodysplasia. He had all the classic symptoms..turned out feet, stunted growth, failing kidney's, frequent urination. He would have been born with the condition but sometimes it just doesn't become evident until the puppy is around 3 to 4 months old. It's very rare, especially in Mastiffs so many vets would have failed to diagnose it properly. We had a Chondrodysplasic puppy born from a sire and dam with almost perfect hip and elbow scores. Our puppy passed away peacefully last month just before her second birthday.
Hope this information is helpful to you and best wishes in your search for another Mastiff. Most Mastiffs are very hardy dogs and I'm sure you will have better luck with your next one.
JenAttached Images:
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 933
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 08:52 AM | Reply with quote #20 |
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Are emails admissible in court?
Didn't you say the breeder agreed to a full refund via email?
__________________
Christin
Member MCOA
Mom to Bravo son of
Intl Ch Dixie Rockstarr (RIP baby),
Fiona our pound puppy,
Chloe our kitty,
And 3 handsome gentlemen Brockton, Christopher and Jordan |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 09:05 AM | Reply with quote #21 |
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Gina,
Sorry, Im just now seeing your question. When I got Dozer, he had already been paid for in full. I paid a deposit the very day he was born, then the full amount before he was to be picked up.
Once I had him in my arms, there was no turning around. Heck, he had been my screen saver so I loved him before I even got him! lol
But, to answer your question, I was never told there were any concerns with him. I didn't realize it until I got him home. I thought maybe the things I was seeing were because he was a Mastiff & since I never had one, I thought maybe it was just how they were. But within a few days I thought surely this can't be right, I've read they were easy to potty train & looked at pictures of other puppies feet & his looked nothing like theirs. That's when I contacted his breeder, a few days after getting him.
I loved him like my own child, the thought did not even cross my mind to return him.
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 09:15 AM | Reply with quote #22 |
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Christin,
Yes, she agreed to a full refund of the purchase price via email. I think I've spoken to her on the phone one time, the whole time even from before he was even born. I guess she deals with people via email mostly???
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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alwcm4
Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 132
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 09:42 AM | Reply with quote #23 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by AngiS
You would probably be shocked if you knew, H. :/ But, it's NOT Linda! lol Don't wanna scare you! lol Just from the details you gave I know who this is and I am shocked! Really shocked! I'm so sorry you had to go through this. I am so happy that Dozer did get to spend his short time here with you. It was probably the best place on earth for him. I have no legal advise, but wanted to say how happy I am you took such great care of him when he needed you.
__________________
Amanda Griffin
http://www.gryphonmastiffs.com |
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zachodie
Registered: 03/28/12
Posts: 36
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 10:08 AM | Reply with quote #24 |
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Ditto to what Amanda said, I too from the details know who this is and it is awful!!!! Very sorry this happened to Dozer and you. I could understand if he came from a BYB or pet shop, but certainly don't expect treatment like this from a reputable breeder. I hope it works out for you.
__________________
Kim F |
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GinaG
POWER POSTER
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 2,967
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 10:30 AM | Reply with quote #25 |
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Kim..when I was active in Rescue and Breeder Referral for MCOA you would be shocked at what I learned and saw from so called "reputable" breeders. High volume kennels seemed to be the ones mostly at fault, and some folks were just plain rotten. I cannot tell you how many complaints one in particular had...too damn many, and they are STILL breeding of course..4-5 bitches at a time and churning them out by the dozens. I had one case where a breeder/judge would not take his own puppy back...another breeder/judge who ignored the pleas from the buyer. Another still who sold to petshops...the list goes on and on.
There are few saints in the dog world it seems. Again, this was back in my hey day 80's, 90's and into 2000's...I will never forget the stories and how sad it made me that innocent buyers were getting duped by so called responsible, well know breeders...it's buyer beware and go with your head and not your heart..hard to do for sure.
Gina
__________________
gina anelli |
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zachodie
Registered: 03/28/12
Posts: 36
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 10:59 AM | Reply with quote #26 |
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Gina in my eyes you are a saint to have done all that work for rescue, I sing your praises, very hard to see that kind of thing day in and day out and be strong enough to continue.
Gina - I hope you don't mind but before I get my next puppy I am going to contact you to make sure I chose wisely!!!!!
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Kim F |
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sarahk2
Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 947
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 11:05 AM | Reply with quote #27 |
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Angie - send me a PM please. I will help if I can and if I can't, I will refer you to someone who can.
__________________
Sarah |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 11:44 AM | Reply with quote #28 |
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Jen (Gammonwood) I'm so sorry to hear of your loss! Your baby was beautiful! It's so hard losing the at any age! It just feels like being cheated from being able to enjoy them until they are seniors when they've been taken so young!
And thank you everyone for your support! I loved my boy to no end! The vet said when I brought him in I was gleaming like a mother with a new child lol. And...I was! lol
It took a while before I could even look at pictures of him, and then I just had to talk myself up to "it's the circle of life, he's not suffering anymore". I felt like I was betraying him in a sense to even consider a new puppy. Not sure if that makes any sense or not?
But, I had to reassure myself that it was not by choice that I lost him, and now that he has passed, it's ok to try & heal our hearts & have a new furry little stinker to make us laugh. Sometimes it's still hard, but realistically I know it's ok, I guess it's just hard knowing he is not here & wont be.
We are VERY excited to get a new puppy! Beyond thrilled actually! My kids continue to pester me, asking when will the puppy be here, & they want a "striped one" this time! lol They are so funny!
I think it's ok to move on, but almost a year after losing him, my throat still gets stiff and sore & my eyes swell with tears. He was my heart, & I lost a piece of it Oct. 31, 2011. I"m not "replacing" him...just adding a new addition. *smile with tears*
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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GinaG
POWER POSTER
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 2,967
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 12:38 PM | Reply with quote #29 |
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In the "old" days we used that antique thing called the telephone to communicate and make friends and heal broken hearts. I can't tell you the amount of times I was on the phone (MCOA actually bought me a private phone line, and fax machine) we were very busy here, as I was Director of the East Coast back then. Things have not changed much as far as getting ripped off though. I see it on here and the fights sometimes have been atrocious.
I stick by my mantra of going with MCOA breeders AND non members who I know hold themselves to high standards and ethics. Without a serious code of ethics in place, folks haven't a leg to stand on sometime.
I am all about protecting the Mastiff breed. We work as a team when we help each other and I know my time was well spent ...I still have files on all the Mastiffs and the stories about unethical breeders is filed in my head...
I will help in any way I can. Always feel free to call or email. I hate to say it Angi, but you learned a bitter novice lesson. I still hope you can recoup your losses ..and remember there are many more responsible breeders out there than not. Do your homework..visit, call and take your time getting a puppy. We will NEVER run out of puppies and there are tons of wonderful, healthy, tested Mastiffs to go around.
hugs to you and your family...Dozer will be in your heart forever.
Gina
__________________
gina anelli |
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sarahk2
Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 947
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 02:18 PM | Reply with quote #30 |
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Angi:
Love does not divide, it multiplies and nothing heals a broken heart faster than a puppy. You are not replacing Dozer - nothing will ever replace him. But you, above all people, should know what it's like to have a cute, healthy, and happy Mastiff puppy. I'm sorry you didn't get that experience.
H can assure you - it is worth it and Bess does not replace Nikki at all. But, I do believe Bess has been quite the healer for him and his family.
__________________
Sarah |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 04:45 PM | Reply with quote #31 |
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Just wanted to give a brief update that I received a $500 check out of the $2,500. So only $2,000 to go. I am tokd as stated in my original post that I will have to wait for the rest once there is a profitable litter. For now, the check resides at the bank for 2 business days, standard hold, so hopefully it will be available then.
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,429
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 05:10 PM | Reply with quote #32 |
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Quote: once there is a profitable litter
Which can be never!
Wait until the check clears. You could have written on the check that it was a partial payment, but it should indicate responsibility on behalf of the sender, since a payment was made as a reimbursement against a debt owed to you. Therefore, if it goes to court you can use that as additional evidence to make your case.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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LindaGreesonRice
Board Owner
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 7,163
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 06:04 PM | Reply with quote #33 |
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I do not understand why people feel they have to protect a breeder when the were treated unfairly. You did nothing wrong - you should not feel intimidated. I wish I was richer - I would give you a puppy for free.
__________________
Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit
The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm
We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.
We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog". |
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GinaG
POWER POSTER
Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 2,967
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 06:12 PM | Reply with quote #34 |
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I agree with you Linda. I said previously that Angi posted only the truth and never slandered anyone. I sure hope this breeder comes forth with the rest of her money and makes it right. I would not accept partial payment unless it's in writing that the 2 grand is forthcoming by a certain date...
Gina
__________________
gina anelli |
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Teresa
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 4,017
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 07:48 PM | Reply with quote #35 |
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Thank you so much for telling Angi she does not need to protect the breeder. It is time for people to understand there is a huge difference between breeder bashing and whistle blowing. Whistle blowing may well save another family from heart break.
__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
Align yourself with those with kind hearts, gentle spirits and honest intentions. Be a good friend and let good friends know how much they are valued! Live every day with the intention of doing what is right... |
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Dixie
** Power Poster **
and
FORUM DONOR!!
Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 5,389
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 07:51 PM | Reply with quote #36 |
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My husband has a saying...he's old fashioned. Fool me once, shame on you!
Fool me twice, shame on me. Don't go to this breeder for a new puppy.
Another: Why do we keep going to the same well if that well is dry? Or:
If you keep doing what you're doing, you will keep getting the same results.
What this all means to me is that you should get to the Small Claims Court and file a Small Claims Lawsuit. There is a department in every county in
the U.S. It costs a small fee to file.
I would not bash the breeder in an open forum or on a chat board. Take her
to court and make sure you have all your letters, emails, AKC registration, etc. Vet Bills and medications included. If the judge rules in your favor, and
I have no reason to doubt he will...you can attach her income taxes, any income, etc. Also through the clerks office they will walk you through all the steps to help you.
I have bred one litter in my lifetime. It was a small litter but I loved those puppies and still do. If anyone called me to tell me their pup was sick like
yours, I would offer full purchase price back and if necessary I would take
the pup back and do the right thing for it.
Different breeders have different contracts that's for sure. But most want to do the right thing. I would write the Certified Letter giving her 30 days to respond with the entire purchase price, then move forward with the Small
Claims Court.
I am so sorry you have gone through this. Things like this can happen even with a reputable breeder. The thing about your case is the way the Breeder
handled it after she was notified. Oftentimes a breeder may not have a litter right away and can certainly have Singleton litters. However, an honest breeder would have given you the Singleton in my opinion. How many so called Singletons does she need?
I hope you will follow through with the above. She has no right to keep your money. That money belongs to you and your family. She should sing your praises for what you have done for that puppy. Fight for your family!!!!!
BTW, although you want a puppy, there are quite a few pure-bred mastiffs in rescue. If you don't want a show dog and don't plan to breed I'd think about that route. There have been some beautiful mastiffs in rescue through no fault of their own.
Note: We had one litter of three pups. I am tired of hearing people tell me I had to make money on that litter. I kept one and sold two
and it cost us money! Breeding is not for sissies I can tell you that. The Vets charge so much for c-sections, A.I., etc. We tried to do everything "right" and protect the Mama and Babies. Don't forget showing is expensive as well. I know now that buying a puppy, from someone like Linda is the way to go...telling the breeder beforehand EXACTLY what you are looking for.
I don't want to discourage anyone from following their heart. Showing can be fun but it can also be super competitive. It can be costly and their are a few folks that can be very mean. Breeding dogs is both wonderful and scary. You never know what you're gonna get...like a box of chocolates Luv, D.
__________________
Dixie |
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 933
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 08:18 PM | Reply with quote #37 |
|
This is exactly why I would prefer and adult dog to a puppy. You already know what you're getting ...
__________________
Christin
Member MCOA
Mom to Bravo son of
Intl Ch Dixie Rockstarr (RIP baby),
Fiona our pound puppy,
Chloe our kitty,
And 3 handsome gentlemen Brockton, Christopher and Jordan |
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 369
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| Posted 07/13/12 at 10:58 PM | Reply with quote #38 |
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Angie,
I am also going to talk to previous buyers from the breeder that I am looking at. Nothing is a given, you can only do the best you can do.
I hope that everything works out between the breeder and you. I wish both of you the best of luck in clearing up this matter to everyone's satisfaction.
__________________
Sue Havelka |
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h
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 3,842
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 12:42 AM | Reply with quote #39 |
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Rather than continue to be pissed of, stressed, angry, tense, uncomfortable, etc., I think both parties should suck it all up, get on the phone in the AM and come to a resolution.
This is a horrible situation and it is being made worse by both parties' failure to communicate.
Please put everything aside and get together to come to a resolution. It breaks my heart to see this.
We are all in this for the love of a wonderful breed of dog.
H
H
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,429
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 12:52 AM | Reply with quote #40 |
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Let's not forget that there is always two sides to a story. Said not to take sides until all of the info becomes available. Let's not hold court on a forum, before all of the facts come due!
Angie now knows her options and hopefully her breeder knows hers as well.
Let's hope they mutually have a meeting of minds and resolve this issue, before it gets too ugly!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS! |
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h
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 3,842
|
| Posted 07/14/12 at 12:54 AM | Reply with quote #41 |
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I'm with you, Steve.
Cumbaya, brother!
H
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 01:53 AM | Reply with quote #42 |
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I would like to thank everyone for their advice on the matter. Yes, there are 2 sides to every story. I have not lied about anything. I simply came to the forum for advice as so many others have before me. I have received not only good advice, but wonderful support, and I thank you all for that!
I have not openly given the breeders name, nor would I. I only wanted advice from my side of the table. I am guessing that others have an opinion on who it may be, but I have not confirmed, denied or stated who it is.
I truly believe that the breeder DID feel bad for Dozer dying & the circumstances that caused it.
It was not my intent to cause anyone any harm or grief. I apologize if this has caused any of those.
Since receiving an email making me aware that if I make any further negative statements about the breeder or her dogs (which I have said nothing of her dogs) she will not hesitate to sue me. The email states that I am libelous because it is easy for someone to find out who Dozer's breeder is.
I was also made aware that I will be dealing with her attorney from here on out and she will place a stop hold on the check, and file a cease & desist letter Monday morning, and that I will never see a dime from her. I was also informed that the breeder will be contacting people in the Mastiff community to make them aware that "I" am slandering and defaming her. The breeder states she has done nothing wrong & feels I have twisted her sympathies. That was not my intention & I hope no one took it in that manner.
Therefore, I guess I can no longer comment, ask for advice or in this case, defend myself publicly.
I'm very sorry that this may have caused any ill feelings towards anyone.
Thanks again!
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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AngiS
Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 146
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 03:11 AM | Reply with quote #43 |
|
I also meant to add in my last post a few clarifications. The breeder did not say she was having financial difficulties, but that "I will not empty my savings account to buy you a dog". Didn't want to misquote anyone.
Also, my above apologies are to anyone that have commented on this thread, that I did not intend to make anyone have any harsh feelings towards anyone because of my disagreement with the breeder. I did not realize this would cause such a problem.
Hopefully I can put this to rest both in my heart and head.
Goodnight~
__________________
Angi~
“The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too.” |
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Dozersmom
Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 369
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 06:55 AM | Reply with quote #44 |
|
Hear! Hear!....there is three sides to every story, yours, the other person involved and the truth. I think in my heart you and the breeder will be able to come up with something that will make both parties happy.
No one wants to take a case to court and no one wants their reputation ruined as I know a lot of breeders sell pup by word of mouth.
Like I have posted earlier , I hope you both can be adults about it, talk to each other and solve the matter between the two of you.
Good luck to all involved
Sue, mom to another Dozer
__________________
Sue Havelka |
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 933
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 08:47 AM | Reply with quote #45 |
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I don't care who's lying or who PM's me. A puppy died at 13mo old. She deserves a refund.
Just my opinion ...
__________________
Christin
Member MCOA
Mom to Bravo son of
Intl Ch Dixie Rockstarr (RIP baby),
Fiona our pound puppy,
Chloe our kitty,
And 3 handsome gentlemen Brockton, Christopher and Jordan |
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DaveOwen
Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 260
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 06:47 PM | Reply with quote #46 |
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I am so sorry for your loss, yes you should get AT LEAST a partial refund based on what has been told.
too many breeders count on discretion............
__________________
People say Mastiffs are stubborn, I say ‘they actively question the validity of what we want‘
http://www.kingmanmastiffs.com/ |
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DaveOwen
Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 260
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| Posted 07/14/12 at 09:48 PM | Reply with quote #47 |
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I need to clarify my last statement to avoid incorrect assumptions as I am very grateful for my girls
too many breeders who fully test and show count on discretion, from eventually returning deposits after 6 months of waiting on a planned litter to be told, sorry no, to passing before two, with every thing in between.
Reputation should be built and maintained on accountability
__________________
People say Mastiffs are stubborn, I say ‘they actively question the validity of what we want‘
http://www.kingmanmastiffs.com/ |
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