Yes, it is sad, a great lady once told me that the only thing wrong with dog clubs were the people, the dogs got on fine.

I have deleted the post.

I dont think I have ever said anything like that in the past on this forum, but if you dont know circumstances of some matters, or history between people, things can happen.  When you, people you admire and great friends are savagely torn apart, well, you dont forget.

If I offended you or anyone else I appologise, to you.

If I have anything more like that to say I will take it private.  

Janine.

Hi Janine,

We have all had dogs that we loved and no doubt those dogs all had some wonderful quality that we would have loved to have passed on to future generations. Fortunately, responsible mastiff people like yourself understand the bigger picture and take responsibility for their actions, or non actions!

All too often we see mastiffs being produced that should never have been bred, all due to emotional reasons. Personal emotions and feelings have to be left at the kennel door, if better specimens are to be produced. And in the end, that's the greatest show of love that we can gift this breed!

Hi Steve P, Thank you for being informative in your response. Often the BIG picture gets lost. Unfortunately, success comes with a hefty price.

My line has been used at times unsuccessfully by other breeders, yet like in this instant, I am expected to pick up the tabs!

As breeders we are aware, the best intention, 'best' lines not always combine successfully. I've learned over the years, esp with Mastiffs, the only certainty with genetics is its uncertainty!

Obviously, silver fawn Tana was a carrier...but " one swallow does not make rain." Tana was a product of Ch.Hunzeal Fantasia out crossed to Damaria Powerful Magic of Gildasan Imp U.K.

Shall I deliberate was it Damaria, Gildasan or both who must have also been carriers? I daresay many Mastiffs world wide are full of genetic surprises!

My original point was that it was not until a certain American apricot sire came into the equation when excessive white and mask variation manifested.

Being mindful of the previous Jan Gibbs experience with an apricot hue, much as I love apricots, that would NOT have been a choice for me.

Incidentally, I believe your Quincy to be a lovely apricot boy with black mask.

When due to external circumstances I took my stock back with breedings NOT of my choice, I wasn't particularly worried ! It won't happen to me! Given the fact that I had just then successfully mated Tana's full brother and full sister with NO surprises, I felt 'safe'!( I spayed Tana)

How wrong I was!

For me all this was heart rendering experience, very costly and a timely, wasted exercise. I neutered all stock kept by me bar one male. On my website, almost complete, 20 years too late, you can see Vizaak, 36", lovely

boy without a scarric of white...neutered, a sad waste. This was NOT the way I wanted to travel !

Steve I am aware of the recent litter. Please check subsequent mating's pedigrees...Surprisingly, you'll find Tana behind most of them with no more

'surprises".

I still strongly believe that in MY experience the variation has to be effected by the perhaps ambivalence of the apricot gene...I would have been curious of other breeders experiences with fawns??? Does this occur ???

My most useful information I can share is that, for fact finding missions it's always best to go back to the source, the original breeder.

I guess answer to the question of what would have happened if Tana was mated to another silver fawn, we'll never know.

Best wishes,

Amasha Hunzeal Mastiffs

Amasha, like I stated earlier I'm on a different continent so I'm not 100% sure but wasnt Tana also bred to Jed ( maybe Gloria C. can clarify).I think this was over 12 years ago and I also remember hearing of a lot of white in that litter as well.The litter on the ground now sired by Quincy doesnt have but a couple of white toes out of 13 puppies and no "Tana" in the pedigree. I guess you need to go back to the drawing board on your assumptions.

Regards, Steve  

Guess this topic proves " there are NO perfect lines or dogs!" You get excessive amounts of white when you least expect. Then you get unsoundness with certain dogs/breedings.

I don't know any breeders who have gotten to the point where they can "honestly" say they have bred all faults/problems out of a breeding program.

I'm old-fashioned. I do not expect my dogs to be perfect. And as yet...I've never met a perfect human, LOL!!!!!!

Hey Linda! My expectations have gotten more realistic through the years. I look at my dogs first as " companions & working" dogs. They are still #1 in my book as the kings of dogdom.

Because a Mastiff has a white chest & white paws, or is pied, does NOT make it any less a Mastiff. Kodiak never set foot inside a show ring, yet he was an ambassador for our breed in his interaction with kids & adults. His temperment was exceptional.

I'll continue to believe even we breeders are not mean't to have the answer to every problem or fault within this breed. I think mother nature holds more keys than we do to the animal kingdom!!!

" Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!........M. Moore

I couldn't agree more...When it's all said & done as a breeder that has always

been my aim...Amasha, Hunzeal Mastiffs

Ch.Hunzeal Dana 1987...

Hey Karen! Enjoyed speaking with you earlier. Keep up the good work in your breedings.

I've been called a "peasant farmer" with humor regarding how I live with my Mastiffs. That is ok with me...because where would the world be without farms & farmers???

And yes, things were much simpler back 20 or more years ago with breeders.

A wonderful, positive thing " was no internet smears & fighting!" Sometimes progress has it's dark side, LOL!!!!!!!!

Well I said something about this and I said it was an Epiphany for me on the book.  A real Mastiff it said was the skull and bones from ancient times to now and color was just recently done as a preference.  Color is only cosmetic if you consider it is never found on bones so color has nothing to do with being a Mastiff.  Also the Standard was written not so long ago and man's preference to color changes so often.  Who does not remeber those coppertone brown stoves .......they are back.  I believe Steve thought it was just low blood sugar.

Wynn is a good source for "general" information about the breed, but the accuracy of his claims have always been in question.

In the early chapters, I believe he even makes mention of hyena crosses with dogs and a possible explanation for the brindle in mastiffs coming from the hyena!

Just for the record, hyenas can't interbreed with dogs, or cats!

So much for Wynn's theory.

At one point, many colors were available and acceptable for dogs called mastiffs.

I would have no problem with pied mastiffs. Perhaps the smooth coated saint people might, but not me!

The issue, is not what Steve likes, the issue is what the standard likes........ and it 'don't' like pied!

Until that standard changes, "we" cannot!