Ok, would one of you explain HYPP in horses please?? That's a new one on me. I've been away from them for too long.

Thanks for explaining that Deanne. It sounds pretty horrible. I swear, what some folks will do for money..very sad to hear of yet another awful situation.

Yes, the ears do look long. Maybe that goes along with whatever gene caused the pied color too? It's an awfully cute puppy though. It would be interesting to see it as an adult.

http://www.boerboels.com/English/BB_standard.htm

Steve P., I wasn't talking about your pied, but rather Pieds in Mastiffs.  I just wondered if it was a mutation of the color gene only, or if the Saint is the reason or the "Fox" in the Hen House as so many want us to believe.

The pied mastiffs are definitely cute.  They must be a throwback to the war days when the Mastiff was almost wiped out and breeders took to breeding to Danes and St. Bernards.  Otherwise, how could this happen?  That last picture (I'm not really good at going through all these threads) definitely looks like a St. Bernard.  I always loved St. Bernards as well - so I'd be smitten with one of these myself.

I think I love you Joan!..

It's a perfect comparison!

Two different types should not be bred!

Two different "breeds" are still dogs of different types!

It doesn't matter if those different types emerge from the same breed, it's still different and if you want to preserve type, you don't breed them back into the "normal" generalized gene pool!

If someone gets a 15 inch mastiff, should it be bred back into the breed, all because it came from a mastiff and it looks "cute"?

I personally do not totally agree with never breeding to a dog because it is a fluffy or a pied.. for me it would depend on the other merits of the dog.  To determine their future as a breeding animal based on a single faullt to me is overkill.  There are no perfect mastiffs, they all have faults, some more than others. Some have more quality than others.

To use a working example, lets use the top winning mastiff of all time,  Westminster winner, Multible Specialty show winner - if  not for a fluffy in his background he would not exist. Obviously that fluffy that played a part in creating him had a lot to offer the breed.

I have not bred to a fluffy or a pied - I have bred away from the recessive traits when known to me - but if I found a dog that has a lot to offer me in other qualities that I could not obtain elsewhere, I would. One thing I have learned in life - never say never!

OK ...

First no one has to agree or disagree with me...it is my opinion...period

Second...the analagy of the Lab/Poodle had nothing to do with the gene pool or genus etc.. it had to do with incorrect breeding...you should no sooner breed an incorrect coat/color/etc. in a breed then you should breed two odd breeds to create a new one just because...

Third...Delibreately breeding a fault into a line just because you find one trait that you want is wrong if for no other reason than it makes that fault accessable to others who may not even know it is there.

and... if you KNOWINGLY do this are you going to be respoinsible for what you produce? Will YOU personally keep every fluffy or pied so it is not continually passed on or will you personally pay for ALL spay and neutering and then tell everyone you produced these faults? Is what benefits us worth procucing things the breed is not supposed to have...where do we draw the line?

Why is it horrendous and irresponsible for a breeder to use a dog who may not pass hips (which it STILL is not proven is totally hereditary and which even the top ortho people say is not necessary) because the dog has so many other good traits and yet you feel it is ok to breed an undesirable coat or color. Is not wrong wrong?

Boxers are culled all the time because they came from the womb white and no one wants to acknowlege it or speak of it...it is kept hush hush because it is considered so incorrect. So if I now breed to the sire or dam or sibling of this white boxer unknowing there is a white gene there, who is at fault for my poor breeding?

Spit happens and we cannot always predict what any breeding will produce...but to knowingly produce it or place the odds in that favor is IMO playing with fire. Where do ethics play in this. We spend a small fortune to test our dogs for everything from hips to hangnails to try to produce a correct healthy specemine...so if we then ignore the rest of the no no's what is the whole point? We have seen pigment in mastiffs dwindle over the years as well as temprament because the "LOOK" of a dog has become the only goal...I think a good dog (again of any breed) is the whole package...not JUST one trait or the other...what good is a georgeous head if there is nothing in it but rage? What good is a georgeous body if the color keeps you from reproducing it or showing the world?....

I would be happy to have a pied/fluffy if it was the will of the gods that he should be mine and not my breeding plan. But I would not purchase one to encourage someone to breed more......

I feel we as breeders have a responsability not to encourage through admiration ....we can show off these dogs but MUST ALWAYS make it clear...it is NOT what the Mastiff should be...

If at some time these are entered and accepted into our standard then by all means...WELCOME but for now they simply are what they are...beautiful imperfections....

it sometimes becomes crystal clear to me why I often do not post to lists....good nite all enjoy your play...

Kathleen, Looks like you're in serious need of a good Podiatrist

It was "removed" because the breeders who founded the original club and standard, decided that the "color" was not going to be reintroduced, since the color was not popular, or available at that point in time.

It's not the only breed to delist points, which were at one time in historical record, points of the breed in question!

We still need to "remove" certain "points", not add new ones at this point!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore

Just in case you missed it under EVERY ONE of my posts!!!

We can all see clearly not every OEM should be bred.  Never the pied for sure, it is disturbing to see one, and then the owner have another one younger..........that tells me they are breeding on purpose for the color.  You may choose to love your animal, but know it is wrong to breed it.  It does not fit the Standard, so do not breed it!  Any Breeder will be faced with choices to make when they breed..........the pied should never be in the mix to choose from.

                               This Needs Clarification

Steve, Maybe you can help.....what is this??..... a "Pied Fawn" or a "Fawn Pied"...All I know for certain is that it's not an Apricot or a Brindle

bumping for the poll or polling for a bump--LOL

Leucism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals.

Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.

Since all pigment cell-types differentiate from the same multipotent precursor cell-type, leucism can cause the reduction in all types of pigment. This is in contrast to albinism, for which leucism is often mistaken. Albinism results in the reduction of melanin production only, though the melanocyte (or melanophore) is still present. Thus in species that have other pigment cell-types, for example xanthophores, albinos will not be entirely white instead displaying a pale yellow colour.

More common than a complete absence of pigment cells is localized or incomplete hypopigmentation, resulting in irregular patches of white on an animal that otherwise has normal colouring and patterning. This partial leucism is known as a "pied" or "piebald" effect; and the ratio of white to normal-coloured skin can vary considerably not only between generations, but between different offspring from the same parents, and even between members of the same litter. This is notable in horses, the urban crow^[1] and the ball python^[2] but is also found in many other species. In contrast, albinism always affects the entire animal.

A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism.

Genes that, when mutated, can cause leucism include, c-kit [3], mitf [4] and ednrb [5]

[edit] Term origin and pronunciation

The terms leucistic and leucism are derived from medical terminology. The prefix leuc- is the Latin variant of leuk- from the Greek leukos meaning "white" (see Steadman’s, Dorland’s or Taber’s medical dictionaries). The correct pronunciation of leucistic is (loo-kiss-tic) and leucism is (loo-kism) since the prefix in Greek and Latin are pronounced with the hard C or K sound. Since the prefix leuc- is a variant of leuk-, in medical circles the terms may also be spelled with a k (leukistic and leukism).

[edit] Gallery

Leucistic Alligator (Alligator mississippiensis) at Audubon Zoo	Leucistic Alligator (Alligator mississippiensis) at Audubon Zoo	Leucistic Leopard Gecko (Eublepharis macularius)	Leucistic Texas Rat Snake (Elaphe obsoleta)
Leucistic Common Grackle (Quiscalus quiscula)	Leucistic Peacock from Kristiansund`s Vanndamman(Pavo cristatus)*Indian Peafowl	Leucistic Chipping sparrow (Spizella passerina)

[edit] See also

• Vitiligo

This genetics article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

Bump!

The pied could have been stopped, the Fluff can not!  The numbers are too great on the fluff and why not substitute white toes for pied if you use that rationale?

Pallone, the thought was advanced in order to demonstrate that incorrect is incorrect, no matter how we rationalize it! It's not a question of which incorrect trait is easier to remove, or inhibit!