SteveOifer
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 02:33 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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Would you breed a shy Mastiff if he looked great in all other respects?
How do you define shyness?
Would specific shyness, expressed only under certain conditions, sway your judgement to breed?
How can we separate genetic influences from environmental, when evaluating causation?
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lesbarrett
Registered: 02/22/08
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 03:28 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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I think a lot of Mastiff are 'default shy' and you have to put in a lot of work to ensure it doesnt manifest itself as time goes on. Even the boldest of Mastiffs can get spooked (ie get lunged aggressively at by another breed at a dog show) and never want to show again....a sad reality
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CChauncey
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 03:32 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Quote: How can we separate genetic influences from environmental, when evaluating causation?
Steve....that's the zillion dollar question right there! Not sure if it's even possible......
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collie
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 04:10 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Never breed a Mastiff with genetic shyness or a carrier of it. Only problem: neither J nor anyone else can identify genetic shyness unless we can identify several shy Mastiffs that are successive generations and were not raised in the same home!
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collie
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 04:13 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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Who's J ? Of course I meant "I".
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KarenK
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| Posted 08/20/10 at 04:29 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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| Fascinating subject because I often hear myself telling people who are asking me about Mastiffs that shyness is almost endemic in the breed. Using the word "genetic" to describe it could be a stretch but I do think personality traits are heritable just as they are in humans so, possibly, it's accurate enough.
Would I breed a Mastiff with a tendency toward shyness? Yes, though I would make every attempt to breed it to one that displayed greater confidence. At this point, I'm afraid if we took every Mastiff with a tentative nature out of the breeding pool, there would be much left. I have seen some that are virtually crippled with shyness and fear that can't be explained by their upbringing and those I would certainly not advocate breeding.
My concern over shyness is that it could potentially lead to defensiveness which could manifest itself in aggressive behavior and, with a breed as large as a Mastiff, that's a very dangerous scenario.
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MiguelSanchez
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| Posted 08/29/10 at 05:10 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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| IMO. Temperament is as important as any other aspect in the Mastiff and breeders should look for the overall mastiff.
I would rather to have at home a cow hooked Mastiff with a pefectly balanced temperament than a shy Mastiff, both are not to be bred but shyness can be dangerous with that size of dog and why will I want a guard dog not guarding?
And yes Steve, it is very important first to find causes of shyness, the same as humans, it will be very extensive trying to explain them, the best tool someone can have to find causes is having experience with the breed.
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MASTIFFAUNTIEB
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| Posted 08/29/10 at 11:06 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: I would rather to have at home a cow hooked Mastiff with a pefectly balanced temperament than a shy Mastiff, both are not to be bred but shyness can be dangerous with that size of dog and why will I want a guard dog not guarding?
In my personal experience with my shy Mastiff, was a family member with a perfectly balanced temperment with his family and always "on guard" of his family's safety. It was only people that did not live with us that he was stand-offish with. Never aggressive-just would rather follow you (the stranger) around until you stopped to look at him and then avert his gaze. Because of his most impressive size, no one would challenge him, to see if he was, indeed aggressive.
I am sure if he thought I was in danger he would have put himself between me and the danger.
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h
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| Posted 08/29/10 at 11:38 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Never mind Mastiffs...overly shy dogs should not be bred no matter the breed.
Have you ever watched a shy dog and really looked at their body language? It's sad. The fear and discomfort ooze from them.
Shy dogs are not terribly happy and we should do everything to avoid creating more of them.
I've never met a shy working/guard dog, but it must be a painful sight.
I've seen a few wolves up close and my heart breaks every time; wolves are notoriously shy. They are so uncomfortable around people and the people that exhibit them think they are doing something good. They may be trying to educate people, but they are torturing the animals that they put in front of crowds.
I'd be pretty angry with a breeder who sold me a shy Mastiff puppy because she thought that the conformational qualities of the parents were too good to pass up on despite the fact that one of them exhibited shyness.
I'd rather have a small boned, pointy headed, snipey Mastiff filled with confidence, piss and vinegar than a Specialty winner who is afraid of his own shadow.
Of course, that probably won't happen as I'm becoming more astute by the day. After a while, you learn to discern the good breeders from the bad.
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pneubi
Registered: 08/24/10
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| Posted 08/30/10 at 08:41 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Shyness manifests in many ways, in fact, "shy" is a pretty imprecise word for the collection of behavior, and a better one, more in use today, is "reactive". Reactvie dogs do not respond to stimuli in ways we would expect or consider appropriate - they generally over-react - they may be unwilling to allow stangers to touch them, they may bark at strange things, they may lunge at other dogs that are too close and make them uncomfortable, even nipping them in the butt in an attempt to move them out of their space and to a more comfortable distance (huuummmmm.........)
A "shy" person is not always the one who hides behind others or refuses to speak, often fundimentally insecure individuals (shy, reactive) are those who speak the loudest, insist most stridently on their views, and self-proclaim as experts - because this expertise masks their lack of confidence and self-centeredness (hhhhuuuummmmmm.............).
Reactive dogs make can make GREAT watch/guard dogs, as they can be hyper-aware of changes in their environment - there is some that claim that actually reactive dogs are the ones we have (unconsionsly) selected for - they are the dogs that would be on the edge of the pack, not the pack leader, not the one always in front, but the ones on the edge keeping an eye out for the strange, the out of place, they would be, by and large, followers, and rather submissive.
There are hundreds of paragraphs on reactive dogs. I would hope any one with one would read what some of the excellent trainers out there have to say about how to work with your reactive dog.
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MaineMastiff
Registered: 03/07/08
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| Posted 08/31/10 at 05:05 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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| This is a good question, but a difficult one, because it is hard to pin down an acceptable level of "shyness."
The temperament generally valued in mastiffs these days is much, much softer than it used to be. We've taken dogs that were bred to charge into battle, dogs that were bred to sleep under a tree all day until a stranger (poacher) shows up and then scare him until he soils himself, and turned then into today's bombproof, snuggle everyone "Gentle Giants."
It is ignorant, at best idealistic, to expect such a radical transition to go seamlessly, and that's just speaking genetics and leaving environment aside. Mastiffs, due to their genetic history, have a built in tendency to be suspicious of strangers. We've bred a lot of this out, but it's still there and if one wants to honor some of the dog the mastiff used to be, then one has to understand that this comes with genetic territory.
Therefore, in my personal opinion, I would not rule out a reasonable level of "spookiness." That means that I would not breed an obviously fearful or aggressive dog. But a dog that sometimes barked at people in the dark or when they were wearing something bizarre like a chainsaw helmet or was aloof with strange men or did not appreciate a lot of personal pressure would be okay in my book. These are all qualities of the original mastiff temperament, and this is what research and training are there for. If you don't want a dog that might ever react to a freaky situation, your best bet is to get a stuffed one.
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new2mastiffs
Registered: 07/13/08
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| Posted 09/01/10 at 12:45 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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How pervaisve is the shyness issue within the mastiff breed?
I have never heard of this being a big problem with this breed before. As a first time prospective owner of a mastiff puppy --- how worried about this issue should I be? I'm currently researching mastiff show breeders. I had planned to of course ask to make sure we did NOT get a scared/shy/fearful puppy, but I was thinking more in terms of just usual, run of the mill type of puppy temperment issues you often find within any breed litter (alpha puppies vs middle of the road puppies vs fearful/overly submissive puppies). BUT do I now need to really concentrate on finding a breeder who does Temperment Testing on their dogs? Do many mastiff breeders do TT?
IF a puppy at 10 weeks old seems to be "middle of the road" in temperment (confident, but not an alpha pup), then can I "assume" that this puppy should NOT develop fearful/timid/shy behavior later on? I'm speaking in terms of genetic influences....not in terms of environmental.
Thanks!
~Pam
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new2mastiffs
Registered: 07/13/08
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| Posted 09/01/10 at 12:49 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by new2mastiffs
How pervasve is the shyness issue within the mastiff breed?
I have never heard of this being a big problem with this breed before. As a first time prospective owner of a mastiff puppy --- how worried about this issue should I be? I'm currently researching mastiff show breeders. I had planned to of course ask to make sure we did NOT get a scared/shy/fearful puppy, but I was thinking more in terms of just usual, run of the mill type of puppy temperment issues you often find within any breed litter (alpha puppies vs middle of the road puppies vs fearful/overly submissive puppies). BUT do I now need to really concentrate on finding a breeder who does Temperment Testing on their dogs? Do many mastiff breeders do TT?
IF a puppy at 10 weeks old seems to be "a confident, middle of the road, even keel" in temperment (confident, but not an alpha pup), then can I "assume" that this puppy should NOT develop fearful/timid/shy behavior later on? I'm speaking in terms of genetic influences....not in terms of environmenta (as I know that it will be our responsibility to ensure we socialize our pup very well on an ongoing basis throughout his lifetime)l. I certainly do not want a shy/timid/fearful dog of any breed, but especially not with a BIG dog. Also, since Mastiffs are a working breed --- bred historically to guard -- how did this shyness/fear issue get bred into them? That seems so sad!
Thanks!
~Pam
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collie
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| Posted 09/01/10 at 08:42 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Mastiffs can be timid at 10 weeks as you say, but in some cases they can be bold at ten weeks and turn timid, even neurotic, at 10 months. It seems somewhat like the phenomenon that I have heard about in pet wolves, who of course did not have this behaviour bred into them, but did not have it bred out through centuries of domestication, like many breeds. At some level Mastiffs are not entirely "in the home" dogs, but have a heritage of being bandogs and war dogs. They mostly are sweet, but can reach very ancient depths. The Mastiff of even 200 years ago was not a pet, and even though today it is the best-natured of the mastiff breeds, is still not always a giant lap dog. I actually don't recommend the Mastiff for anyone who is looking for a big cuddly toy. They are emotionally complex, and in 28 years of owning the breed, I have never had two alike.
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Tracy
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| Posted 09/14/12 at 11:58 AM | Reply with quote #15 |
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