h
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Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 3,885
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Posted 09/11/12
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#1
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Where are they?
I met a Bullmastiff and a Bernese this weekend who were both shy and pulled away when I went to pet them. I don't come on strong, either. Dogs tend to gravitate toward me.
As is my understanding, a working dog should be bold, confident and meet everyone headfirst. These two were nervous nellies.
The most alarming thing to me is that the owners of both dogs informed me that they were probably going to be bred. Doesn't shyness beget shyness? If we keep breeding dogs like this, there will be no working dogs anymore.
My neighbor has a DDB who is afraid of his own shadow. He once cowered from me when I met him and their 13 year old daughter on a walk. He was alone with the 13 year old girl and should have come between us if he had the proper temperament.
This type of behavior is unacceptable to me. The breeders of these dogs are bringing the breeds down. Dogs should not live in a state of fear; especially working breeds. It is not healthy for them and it is not healthy for the fancier who desires a correct temperament.
I've owned three sporting dogs and two working dogs to date. Thankfully, each one approached people with a tremendous degree of self confidence. I would be upset if I had a fearful dog; upset for the dog and for myself for having to deal with this fear.
By the way, Little Bess thinks she is "king shit". She is a bold, outgoing pup and I'm thankful for that.
Where is the confidence?
Why is this happening?
H
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Mom2Thor
Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 13
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Posted 09/12/12
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#2
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In my opinion, which is worth nothing, shyness/timidness does beget shyness/timidness. Thor's mother was very, very timid and shy and his father was totally uninterested in people. Even as a 9 week old puppy Thor wasn't really interested in people. He is now very, very bonded with us but he is not and never will be a confident outgoing soul. He loves people and wants very much to be friends but he is afraid at first. He is my heart dog but I've learned a lot lurking here and elsewhere and am looking for a responsible breeder for my next puppy. I personally don't believe that shy, timid, fearful dogs should be bred.
Susan
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dixierockstarr
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 939
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Posted 09/12/12
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#3
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Amen! It is so sad to see Mastiffs and other working breeds with their tails tucked up under their rears! Don't breed them!
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Christin 
Member MCOA
Mom to Bravo son of
Intl Ch Dixie Rockstarr (RIP baby),
Fiona our pound puppy,
Chloe our kitty,
And 3 handsome gentlemen Brockton, Christopher and Jordan
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BamNReynasMama
Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 680
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Posted 09/12/12
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#4
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I personally don't think I would think twice about a bullmastiff pulling back from me. They weren't bred to be besties with everybody, and while we do see more current breeding going towards a softer temperament (many BMs I'm meeting remind me of the goofy rottie personality), I don't think it's completely unacceptable for one to be untrusting of a stranger.
Also, another allowance has to be made for the social experiences that these dogs have had. While genetics is a HUGE component and one I will acknowledge based on my experience with my own two, even the most stable dog, when under- or improperly socialized may not end up being a social butterfly. And unfortunately, socialization isn't exactly one of those things that can easily be undid or redone.
Another allowance might be made for the age of the dog. A younger dog may not have the confidence yet of a more mature, experienced dog. Again, not completely unacceptable in my eyes. And yet another allowance may be made for how the owner responds to the dogs shyness. Is it reinforced? Encouraged? Has any effort been made to appropriately address and correct it?
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Rebecca
(formerly USMCita)
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MaineMastiff
Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 229
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Posted 09/12/12
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#5
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Our new Corso pup, Manzo (now 14 weeks) thinks he is hot shit too! He walks up to people with so much confidence and is sure that everyone wants to worship him. He is feisty with other dogs as well, barking and play bowing without hesitation. As far as he is concerned, he is, and should be, the center of the universe. I love it!
Mishka was this way as a puppy too, a total rock star, but living very rurally and being young, I think we let him down a bit on the socialization. Once he got older, he became less than thrilled with strangers...not shy exactly, never hiding behind us...but definitely a bit stand-offish. He controlled the space between strangers and himself. Ladies could come in for a kiss, but men needed to let him call the shots. Agility, obedience, and weight pull brought his confidence up fantastically, and we always had control, but I think his temperament was a little sharper than what most people want for a family pet...closer to what I've always thought of as a working temperament.
Regardless, we are doing everything we can to keep Manzo sassy and bold. He's already been to a pig roast with loud music, fireworks, and maybe fifty people. He's gone swimming, participated in a street steady obedience class in Portland on Sunday, attended an NWDA weight pull competition where he ran around in a harness to get used to it, he's been to work with my husband...everywhere we go, he goes.
I think breeding for temperament is important, but I think it's not the full picture. What you do with your dog is very important as well. Manzo has clearly had some real thought and effort go into his breeding, and we are doing everything we can to take advantage of that. Mishka was bred by my in-laws and they did not consider temperament when breeding, but he turned out to be a terrific working dog, as well as the love of my life.
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Julia
UWPCH Mishka, Beast of the North CGC, OBT, WP1 December 10, 2005-November 11, 2011
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Janine
~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 1,249
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Posted 09/14/12
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#6
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I think temperament should be right up there with type, health etc when contemplating a breeding.
I hate seeing Mastiffs in the ring slinking around on their bellies, pulling back when approached by judges and literally peeing themselves. I do not think these temperaments should be passed on at all. Nor do I want to see Mastiffs lunging at other dogs and or owners.
My first Mastiff, in fact, most of my Mastiffs always seemed to have an arrogance about them, I could walk them through a crowd at a show and you could have dogs on either side having a go and the Mastiffs would not even acknowledge them, like they knew they were superior and would not waste their time.
I was never afraid to walk them at night because they would always place themselves between anyone approaching and me, even if I was speaking to the neighbours they would be firmly between the fence and me. If someone came to the house and went to the gates the dogs would be around there and really roaring, come in through the front door and quick sniff and best friends.
With all the Mastiffs who have been part of my family I was only ever let down by one, she had a very unpredictable nature, she tried to bite a man on the face when he asked if he could pat her and I said yeah, made an excuse for her, tried to bite a friend of a friend, again on the face, made another excuse, then she bit my son on the face and I put her down. I saw the whole thing and it was unprovoked, it could have been a lot worse, but seeing blood run down the face of your child and her ready to follow through with another bite, just me yelling stopped it, something I will never forget, but many friends told me I should have "got a litter from her first". Not just Mastiff people but other breeds as well. Also, thankfully had many say I had done the right thing. Still hurt so much to let her go though. I also heard after that two of her litter mates also had the same temperament and had been pulled from the ring.
Janine.
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SteveOifer
~ TOP SUPREME POWER POSTER~
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 23,533
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Posted 09/14/12
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#7
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Temperament and specific behaviors, can be two separate things.
Regarding the title of this thread, one must first know the job assigned before determining the best temperament suited for the job at hand.
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For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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MaineMastiff
Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 229
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Posted 09/14/12
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#8
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Quote:
Regarding the title of this thread, one must first know the job assigned before determining the best temperament suited for the job at hand.
I agree with this 100% It is one of the points I was trying (much less succinctly) to make.
I don't think fearful temperament is ever beneficial for working temperament, but depending on the job, you might very well want a dog that is a little sharper or a little less social than what many breeders are aiming for with the gentle giant image.
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Julia
UWPCH Mishka, Beast of the North CGC, OBT, WP1 December 10, 2005-November 11, 2011
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MaineMastiff
Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 229
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Posted 09/14/12
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#9
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Case in point:
My dutch shepherd female has tons of DRIVE which is great for working, but she is GOOFY beyond belief! Her drive has made her a great competitive obedience dog and is why we are starting SAR work, but her goofiness (and a freak gum disease) are why we have dropped out of personal protection work. In weight pull, the drive helps but the goofiness and hectic energy make it harder.
Working temperament means so many things...often it's about balancing strengths and weaknesses and finding the right job for the personality on hand.
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Julia
UWPCH Mishka, Beast of the North CGC, OBT, WP1 December 10, 2005-November 11, 2011
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