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collie

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Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks

No dog representing the Pekingese and Bulldog breeds will compete in Thursday evening’s Best in Group competitions at Crufts after they failed the new veterinary checks that have been introduced to the show.

The Best of Breed award was not given to Pekingese, Palacegarden Bianca, or Bulldog, Mellowmood One In A Million, following their veterinary checks, which were carried out by an independent veterinary surgeon. This means that the dogs will not be allowed to continue into the Toy or Utility Best in Group competitions respectively.

The Kennel Club has introduced veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners at all Kennel Club licensed General and Group Championship Dog Shows from Crufts 2012 onwards, in 15 designated high profile breeds. This measure was introduced to ensure that Best of Breed awards are not given to any dogs that show visible signs of problems due to conditions that affect their health or welfare.

The fifteen high profile breeds are as follows: Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: “We are determined to ensure that the show ring is a positive force for change and that we help to move breeds forward by only rewarding the healthiest examples of a breed.

“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”



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David, do you know WHY they failed???  I'd heard about this new vet check and wondered what it entailed.  TIA.


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FAQ about the new vet checks...too much to post here so here's the link:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4176


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Reply with quote  #4 
Specific info on the high profile breeds being checked:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/12708/SH102HPvetsurgeoninfo.pdf


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Reply with quote  #5 
Interesting read considering the news from Crufts today....

http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/qualzucht-wins-big-at-westminster/



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Reply with quote  #6 
I'm torn on this one.  As a generalist, I think it's appropriate to make the breeds we decide we want to create at least viable.  As a breed fan, I think it seems a contradictory stance for a kennel club to take.  

“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. ..."

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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #7 

I am all for it.  If people breed dogs to extremes to get the "desired look" and the animals are unhealthy because of it, then they should be disqualifed and therefore no good for breeding and passing on overdone unhealthy genes along to the next generation.  We can remain within the breed standard, without over doing appearance, and produce healthier dogs.


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Kristie in Texas
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Reply with quote  #8 

I noticed it talked about ectropion on Mastiffs. Very few Mastiffs have no trace of ectropion.


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Reply with quote  #9 

Ectropin would eventually die off genetically if Mastiffs that carried it weren't allowed to advance in the show ring.  At our present state, I don't think any of the Mastiffs would be allowed to advance........


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collie

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Reply with quote  #10 
I don't know the details, but they are sure to come out. Probably either eyes or breathing. There will be a you-know-what storm in the British dog press about this next week.


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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenK
I'm torn on this one.  As a generalist, I think it's appropriate to make the breeds we decide we want to create at least viable.  As a breed fan, I think it seems a contradictory stance for a kennel club to take.  

“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. ..."
It is a contradictory stance from the kennel club responsible for the exaggerated features and health problems.  But it takes years for these exaggerated features to get to what they have, and up to now the kennel club has been trusting breeders and judges to keep to the standards !!!
I think for the future of dogs, this stance is totally necessary.
And i see the stance as being a great start to sorting out the health problems of our breed !!

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Reply with quote  #12 

Why would any true lover of a breed complain if a dog is disqualified due to health issues caused by over doing appearance?  Dogs that are that bad off don't need to spread their genes.  Look at what has happened with show German Shepards vs working German Shepards.


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And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #13 
That's an overgeneralization.  Many breeds that are bred to the standard are, by definition, structurally unsound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtpoor

Why would any true lover of a breed complain if a dog is disqualified due to health issues caused by over doing appearance?  Dogs that are that bad off don't need to spread their genes.  Look at what has happened with show German Shepards vs working German Shepards.


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Reply with quote  #14 

Then why not breed it structurally sound to begin with?  You can breed a dog that meets the standard and is still structurally sound.  Why sacrifice one for the other?


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Kristie in Texas
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Reply with quote  #15 
I guess that disqualifying faults, are now in the Standard after all!

Wouldn't it be nice to have added these issues into the Standard, instead of having a vet decide upon what constitutes a worthy Mastiff?




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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #16 

Because the Standard is obviously open to interpretation!


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Kristie in Texas
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Reply with quote  #17 

@Steve. YES


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Reply with quote  #18 
And I sooooo knew you would chime in! 
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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
I guess that disqualifying faults, are now in the Standard after all!

Wouldn't it be nice to have added these issues into the Standard, instead of having a vet decide upon what constitutes a worthy Mastiff?



Steve i would think a vet finding health issues with a Mastiff is in a very good position to decide if it is a worthy Mastiff !!

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Reply with quote  #20 

Grant, what about my comment about ectropion?


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Reply with quote  #21 

But what if ectropion wasn't easily fixed with surgery?  What if there was no surgery for these issues at all?  Wouldn't we naturally breed away from them?


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Kristie in Texas
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Grant

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa

Grant, what about my comment about ectropion?

Teresa, it is still a health problem that needs to be addressed, no matter what the percentage have it !

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Reply with quote  #23 

@ Grant, I agree 100%


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Kristie in Texas
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And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #24 

I agree it needs to be addressed, but in the ring at Crufts? I would venture to guess many Mastiffs today would be dq'd if that was the case. To me, that is one of those issues we can successfully breed away from (entropion boths me MUCH more).


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Reply with quote  #25 

As long as people breed away from it (them) that is all that matters.  At least this way people will really pay attention and try to do that instead of just letting it slide 


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Kristie in Texas
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And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa

I agree it needs to be addressed, but in the ring at Crufts? I would venture to guess many Mastiffs today would be dq'd if that was the case. To me, that is one of those issues we can successfully breed away from (entropion boths me MUCH more).

The UK averages four Champions a year, and because of what you are saying i think for maybe up to five years, the Champion average may drop down to one, or even no Champs until the issues are resolved !!

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Reply with quote  #27 

WOW, MUCH different than the U.S.!


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Reply with quote  #28 
As you know, the Peke is from the same kennel as the Westminster BIS, and the Bulldog bitch was the Bulldog of the Year and was BIS at the British Bulldog Championship Show in November. Hoo boy, is there going to be some fun next week. The Peke and Bully people will be spitting feathers!
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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa

WOW, MUCH different than the U.S.!


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Reply with quote  #30 

Quote:
Steve i would think a vet finding health issues with a Mastiff is in a very good position to decide if it is a worthy Mastiff !!


Most vets wouldn't know a worthy Mastiff if it fell on top of them!

If you are correct, then make all vets judges and be done with it!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer

Quote:
Steve i would think a vet finding health issues with a Mastiff is in a very good position to decide if it is a worthy Mastiff !!


Most vets wouldn't know a worthy Mastiff if it fell on top of them!

If you are correct, then make all vets judges and be done with it!
Steve, The judges are picking the best from the rest and then the vets are checking for health issues !! Not conformity !!

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collie

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Reply with quote  #32 
Here's the critique when the Bulldog won the Bulldog show.
CH MELLOWMOOD ONE IN A MILLION.
       
A TOP QUALITY RED AND WHITE BITCH COMPLETELY BALANCED ,WITH A BEAUTIFUL  HEAD AND A
       GOOD SWEEP AND TURN OF WIDE UNDERJAW , GOOD WIDTH AND FILL OF FOREFACE, AND 
 LOVELY
       BODY SHAPE , LOVELY FRONT WITH DEEP BRISKET AND
  NEAT HINDQUARTERS SHORT IN BODY,
       MOVED CORRECTLY.     

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Reply with quote  #33 
Grant, please re-read your original quote!

Quote:
Steve i would think a vet finding health issues with a Mastiff is in a very good position to decide if it is a worthy Mastiff !!


Vets can be wrong and it's why second opinions are made.

A worthy Mastiff can still have faults, even medical faults, but if a vet is going to be the final decision maker, based on the medical model, then, over time, we wouldn't have many worthy Mastiffs left to choose from!

Judges are supposed to be able to determine correct structural integrity. If they have failed in that department, it's not because vets weren't used in the show ring.

All that needs to be done, is to delineate what is desirable & undesirable in a given breed, in a very clear fashion. This should be done by amending a standard, not by calling in the medical cavalry!




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Tracy

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Reply with quote  #34 

setting up so the dog will fail regardless doesnt give the dog the pportunity to pass what ever testing they may give it.  seems silly to call it an inspection when there is no pass.just fail.


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Reply with quote  #35 
The general talk downunder is that the bulldog bitch (previously awarded 21 CC's) failed the vet check due to an old eye injury, however had a current eye cert (from Dec 2011)and had passed other tests on the day. 
Also being questioned is that their should not be any tools or devices used to do these inspections but apparently they used a torch to shine into the eyes to find something (an old injury) not generally visible to the naked eye.
It will be interesting to see what comes out of it all over the coming weeks.
Crufts ...the place not to be maybe? 

IMPO its a bit of a red flag that many of the 15 breeds identified are mastiff breeds. Along with world wide breed banning trends and calls from SPCA's to restrict dog sizes to under 50kgs....kinda worrying for our breed really. 
and I won't even start on the accredited breeders scheme. All part of the knee jerk.
Both Australia and NZ have this in place now...many longtime breeders (of all breeds) here in NZ are outraged.
 

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
Grant, please re-read your original quote!

Quote:
Steve i would think a vet finding health issues with a Mastiff is in a very good position to decide if it is a worthy Mastiff !!


Vets can be wrong and it's why second opinions are made.

A worthy Mastiff can still have faults, even medical faults, but if a vet is going to be the final decision maker, based on the medical model, then, over time, we wouldn't have many worthy Mastiffs left to choose from!

Judges are supposed to be able to determine correct structural integrity. If they have failed in that department, it's not because vets weren't used in the show ring.

All that needs to be done, is to delineate what is desirable & undesirable in a given breed, in a very clear fashion. This should be done by amending a standard, not by calling in the medical cavalry!



Steve, the thread is about dogs not passing a medical check, and therefor not being deemed a WORTHY Mastiff to be an ambassador for the breed in the best of breed ring !!! What's wrong with that ?  

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Reply with quote  #37 
My Manx was diagnosed with cancer of the jaw, even after X-rays were taken. Recommendation was to surgically remove the jaw.
I decided not to put the cat through that, so I took him home with hundreds of dollars worth of pain meds & antibiotics in tow.

Two days later, no cancer!

Vets should not be determining worthy specimens at a dog show!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
My Manx was diagnosed with cancer of the jaw, even after X-rays were taken. Recommendation was to surgically remove the jaw.
I decided not to put the cat through that, so I took him home with hundreds of dollars worth of pain meds & antibiotics in tow.

Two days later, no cancer!

Vets should not be determining worthy specimens at a dog show!

I have also been given wrong diagnoses by vets on various occasions .
But we are not talking about X-rays and DNA tests here, we are talking about visual obvious exaggerations, that are causing health problems and issues like lameness where the dog should not be at the show anyway !!! 

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Reply with quote  #39 

if ythe exaggeration causes an issue with the dogs ability to walk, and not be able to function in the manner it was intended then ok, but not allowing them to even try to pass is just another one of those rediculous agendas that will end up costing dog fanciers issues down the line.  be carefful of what you ask for you may just get it.

ie mastiffs looking like danes ect.


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If you dont rescue, Dont Breed.
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein
Ch Sherwood Ranchlands Friar Tuck
Ch Windypines ir Reginald Montgomery ( in heaven)
National and Internation and sooo close Ch Ranchlands Duecs Wild ( In heaven)
Windy Pines Mid-night Maxi ( In Heaven)
Pallone Ranchlands Diamond Lil ( In Heaven)
Winsomes Ranchlands Maid Marion
Ch. Ranchlands Windimup and Watchimgo
Ranchlands Amazing Grace
Ranchlands Kissed By An Angel
Ranchlands And The Beat Goes on'
Ranchlands Truly Scrumptious
Ranchlands Rumor Has It
Sylvans My Cherie D"Amour at Ranchlands.
Grant

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy

if ythe exaggeration causes an issue with the dogs ability to walk, and not be able to function in the manner it was intended then ok, but not allowing them to even try to pass is just another one of those rediculous agendas that will end up costing dog fanciers issues down the line.  be carefful of what you ask for you may just get it.

ie mastiffs looking like danes ect.

Tracy, The UK standard was updated for health reasons, because of outcry from the public in 2009. From that time till now, the breeders and judges of the main health problem breeds, have been made very aware of what was expected of them, to get there breeds back in order.
Bulldogs will have to have longer legs, longer muzzles and will no longer be allowed in the ring if they are obese.
Mastiffs will no longer get to be champions if they have exaggerations like overdone heads, excessive wrinkling on body, eye troubles etc.
Show breeders will have to restock from outside the showing gene pool !! 

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Grant
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Reply with quote  #41 

 dont have a probelm if the dog cannot function, but failing at the show seems a little off.  I have bulldogs and french bulldogs as well as mastiffs, and I can tell you the extremes in both breeds of bullies can be sad.  we see the american version of frenchies becoming soo short backed that some look deformed, and end up with spina bifida, and there is a lot of cleft pallets in both breeds. I have a bulldog whose head is smaller than what you see in the ring, but this dog can run and play for hours on end across two acrs and not tire out, something you dont see as they are huffing and puffing from one single walk arund the ring.


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Reply with quote  #42 
We are creating a pit of variability, that will haunt future breeders from unifying type.

Not all Bulldogs suffer, nor should we eliminate type in order to preempt repairs, which may not materialize.

The vet recommended spaying my son's Bulldog bitch and now she has terrible hormonal skin issues!

The standard & judges can address exaggerations, limping & other issues, without the intervention of vets in the show ring.

We don't need to see Dr. Petpooper determining worthy Mastiffs!

                                       


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #43 

Why wouldn't they check the dogs that were entered BEFORE the were shown......just wondering..........


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Reply with quote  #44 
I'm holding back on this issue until I see what happens tomorrow. when I'll be there.
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Reply with quote  #45 
http://www.crufts.org.uk/news/clumber-spaniel-fails-crufts-vet-check
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Reply with quote  #46 
The Clumber too. Are we seeing a pattern here? I wonder if law suits are being considered. Everyone will be holding their breaths tomorrow when the mastiff breeds are judged.
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Reply with quote  #47 
I remember watching the Mastiffs in 2004 from my hospital bed. The poor brindle boy just about made it around the ring, he was so lame. Sadly he had a beautiful head and the rest just fell apart.
These poor dogs...
Gina

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Reply with quote  #48 

I am with you Cindy why not vet check them before they go in the ring and eliminate the dogs that are not passing their health tests that would eliminate a lot of dogs in the ring that the judges do not have to see and make the choice of winners a lot easier and the show would go on quicker I just wonder how many dogs would end up in some breeds even being in the ring.to be looked at by judges.Harrie


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #49 
It's a dog show, not a hospital ward!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #50 


Vets judging judges!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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