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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

Speaking of history and the standard, the "height coming from depth of chest, rather than from length of leg" has become ingrained into our collective psyche and accepted at face value!

My view has always been that you cannot achieve "height" from depth of chest/body per se and the term was erroneously used in order to describe desired form in a metaphorical sense.

Perhaps the original wording, in its unabridged version, might somewhat clear up this issue.

The following is from M.B. Wynn c1873...........

"Height should ever be accompanied with massive build and length, and should proceed from the shoulder to the elbow, rather than from the elbow to the foot. I mean, the height of the dog should be derived from the depth of the chest, rather than from over-legginess, as this most tends to develop the weight more or less of the whole animal". 

Then in 1880, the final standard of the first mastiff club, under Wynn who was Sec. Tres., truncated the above to simply read....."Height: General.....Produced by depth of body, not by length of limb".

To me, this clearly meant to indicate that the mastiff's legs are not supposed to be long and racey from the foot to elbow! It did not imply that the balance, or ratio of the appendicular structure, including shoulder to elbow assembly, was to be distorted or greatly divert from the "golden" 50-50 ratio.

Wynn clearly stated that the "over-legginess" was not to be from the foot to elbow!

The truncated version, that was extrapolated from Wynn's early original remarks, has become the wording that we have followed ever since, but the meaning and original context in totality, should indicate to all that depth of chest was a metaphor used to describe the upper section of leg assembly, which said assembly in truth partially creates height in conjunction with the lower leg assembly. Depth of chest is a separate structure and should not be seen as creating height, but can be used to address correct form in connection to the total leg assembly.!

This is why the historical record is too important when attempting to asertain what the founding fathers were trying to depict. The standard has been altered in many cases, due to political and subjective forces. The end result is an instrument that might be vague in several areas, or clear, yet might mean something other than what seems obvious in it's present printed form.

The standard needs to be brought up to date and unified. We need ONE universal standard for this breed, which is clearly understood by judges, breeders & fanciers.

A panel should be formed to review this issue and both clubs have a vested interest in starting this process as soon as possible. It's time has come!

Let's ALL be on one page!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Blair

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Reply with quote  #2 
Steve - I've seen other threads where other people have argued with you on this topic.  Are you basically trying to state the ratio of the leg itself should be better defined within the standard?  If so, what ratio is correct for a mastiff?  Is it the 50/50 standard or is it some other ratio?  Is it an untrue statement that 99.9% of the mastiffs whose chest extends to their elbows meet the 50/50 ratio for the most part?

Blair

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Blair Pilgrim
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #3 
Blair,

The chest extending beyond the elbow is applicable if the ratio is 50-50.

A 55-45 is also acceptable, but the further you go on the top end, the shorter the foot to elbow becomes and at some point, movement will be affected especially if one wishes to maintain length of body!

If you measure the dogs which have had the greatest affect on the breed, you will see that the ratio in 99% of the cases are 50-50.

Beau Ideal is a case in point as is MM!

The cover photo of Balint in Oliff's fine book shows a dog with too long a leg from foot to elbow!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Blair

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Reply with quote  #4 
Just so I am totally comprehending.  Your bottom line is the ratio should be defined as 50/50 in the standard to alleviate too much latitude in interpretation and to hopefully prevent "leggy" mastiffs.

Would you change any language in regards to depth of chest or just separate it out as a different component of the standard?

Blair

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Blair Pilgrim
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #5 
Marcel,

In my personal view, Threebees out of Jason did not do this breed any favors!

The down faced houndy head had plagued this breed for years due to the proliferation of their genes in many pedigrees!

Barrel chested mastiffs have also been seen as "correct" due to "spring of rib" comments and slab sided dogs are the other extreme.

We can construct any form we wish without any value judgments. After all is said & done, the net result is not good nor bad, but just form. The genes don't care what we determine them to be, they just express!

If we wish for a certain "look", then that look must be derived through a combined effort of breeders and a club standard, coupled to one view of what is considered as being "correct".

Duel standards and nebulous terminology can never solidify type and we are only fooling ourselves if we think that we can work through that, given the many years of trial & error that by now should have proven otherwise!

Unfortunately, humans are built differently than mastiffs. The arms and legs are not dependent on each other, since we started to walk upright!

In mastiffs, a long torso needs a certain length of leg to accommodate a long torso length, which does not imply that depth of chest should be affected!

The upper shoulder assembly and the lowest portion of the chest are disconnected!

The first three ribs, if barrel in form, will push the elbows out during movement. They MUST be flattened out in order to assist proper gait and the deeper the chest, the more emphasis is needed in such areas in order to maintain stability of motion.

We control form, then when shifting various parts into new positions, we create new dynamics, which in turn will pose new issues.

I have no problem with a 50-50 leg ratio and a chest that dips slightly under the elbow. That can be accompanied by good spring of ribs and length of body.

When it all combines the dog will appear to be ideal, as in Beau Ideal!



__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #6 
Blair,

Depth of chest should not be reflected in height other than to observe form in profile!

The upper torso "rides" on the upper shoulder assembly and has nothing to do with the height of the dog.

You could have a 55 inch mastiff with a narrow chest, or a 55 inch mastiff with a chest down to the ground! The dog would still be the same height!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #7 
Addendum:

Shoulder angle can afffect height and depth of chest!

A straight shoulder can produce the illusion of greater height, but it usually will pull the chest up as well. Conversely, the height will drop as the shoulder "lays" back and with that, the chest will also drop!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Blair

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Posts: 626
Reply with quote  #8 
Steve you totally lost me.  Here I am agreeing with you and ask you a simple question and you start talking about giraffe's and hippo's.  I take it from your left field response that you would be in favor of any any references made to the chest taken out in regards to height and a definitive range of total leg ratio inserted in it's place.  That's all I was asking was if that is what your main goal is. 

Blair

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Blair Pilgrim
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Blair

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Reply with quote  #9 
When I said different component I was talking about the chest proportions and not in regards to height, but maybe adding chest should extend to elbows or just past them in portion of standard that deals with the chest.  I don't think I was clear on that one so after re-reading it I think I see where your response came from.

Blair

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Blair Pilgrim
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #10 
Blair,

If I use Giraffes & Hippos, it's usually because the questioner is talking about crocodiles & kangeroos!..LOL

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Sandragon

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Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 4,215
Reply with quote  #11 

bump


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Lorie
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marg

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Reply with quote  #12 

Bump!

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