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Gammonwood

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Hi Everyone,


Just want to introduce our newest Mastiffs.....they live with us on the outer echelons.... and probably always will...LOL. 


They are just adorable little creatures!


We’ve uploaded some info on pieds to our website at http://www.gammonwood.net (under The Gilpins of Gammonwood link) and will update with photos from time to time.


We mean no disrespect to anyone else’s beliefs.


All the best to all of you on the forum.


 


Si & Jen



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Teresa

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Phooey on beliefs, they are pups and they are cute!  
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Reply with quote  #3 
Beautiful puppies
dixierockstarr

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Congratulations on your beautiful litter.
Thank you for all the information on pieds provided in your link. Its very useful informaion.
I'm not sure why but I'm hoping Steve reads it and will comment. I would love to know his take on the historical perspective of pied mastiffs.

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highacre

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Reply with quote  #5 
I have bred Harlequin GD's for over 40 years.  Please be aware that you must check for deafness. 

They are cute, cute cute. 

Waiting with bated breath for Steve's take on this.

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Reply with quote  #6 
Adorable, congratulations! I sure hope you keep us posted on their growth, with pictures of course if you can find the time. I know I am not alone in wanting to see them grow!
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Reply with quote  #7 

How lovely!  I'd really be interested in seeing what these pups look like as they grow up!


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Reply with quote  #8 
Will buyers want them for their rarity or will our breed be exploited because of the demand for something different from the present norm? I have mixed feelings about breeding just for color, only because I see the Mastiff breed as being over populated for the wrong reasons.
I think your Mastiffs are gorgeous and the babies are strong, healthy and have a great future. Good luck placing them and I know they will only go to loving and deserving homes. ..
Gina

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #9 
My response to Jen sent yesterday with her permission to post........

Congratulations on your fine looking litter, which included the rare anomaly.

 

I'm familiar with the history of pieds in the Mastiff and for what it's worth, would like to share my views with you on the subject

 

Personally, I don't consider the pied any more Mastiff than a non pied. The historical pied was just as bastardized as any other Mastiff during that time in history, so I disagree with the good Colonel in that regard.

 

The early pied images only show that Alaunt influences, or other crosses were at work, but little else to confirm any specificity as to merit the term of purity, or true Mastiff type.

 

In all likelihood, the early pied genetics died off, since the Mastiff after the wars were almost extinct.

 

New pieds that followed the war, could be attributed to new crosses done after the wars, or Bulldog influences perhaps coming in through the Bullmastiff. Not to mention the Saintly crosses, or Danes.

 

In any case, the men who wrote the OEMC standard did not want pieds, even though Wynn's leanings were more liberal in all matters referring to color.

 

So today, we see the pied as an undesirable color, even though I personally find them unique and interesting and wouldn't mind owning one to add to the collection, provided I had other more conservative colors already on hand.

 

There will always be temptations when a pied appears in your own breedings.

 

Rationalizations will flood your being and those friends who know of your good fortune will support you every way they can!

 

All except me I'm afraid!

 

We should never attempt to justify a fault, even though the fault may not have been seen as such hundreds of years ago.

 

I loved Janine's pied, but I believe she did the correct thing when she had him neutered.

 

I can understand how a rationalist like the Col. would conclude as he did, since he is not concerned with standardized forms, but functional types uber alles.

 

In that regard, he cannot be faulted, but if we are going to admit, that breeding pure bred dogs means limitations of what we can breed, then we must be true to that calling!

 

Otherwise, we set ourselves up for a free-for-all policy, which can only lead to personal subjectivity and a further commingling of foreign genetics, masking as old, or ancient long lost relatives.

 

Reminds me of the pituitary problem that leads to gigantism. At one point in time, the large brows of such people afflicted with the condition, were erroneously thought to be throwbacks to Neanderthals!!

 

So in closing, I love the look and love pied pups!

 

But as Kippling once remarked, "If you can keep your head when all about you
are losing theirs",
you might maintain your objectivity and recognize the bigger picture, and how if pieds do re-enter the gene pool, it might be a disaster for fanciers who have tried long & hard to maintain some understanding of color coat inheritance, which would certainly become compromised and pose a risk not only for breeders, but for the pups themselves.

 

I trust you will take my honest thoughts on this issue as a sign of friendship, even though it might have dampered your spirits, which certainly was not my primary intention.

 

I could have more easily just sent congrats, but I would have felt like a phoney had I not shared my views with you against the backdrop of the other positive views in your e-mail.

 

Hopefully you will understand where I'm coming from on this subject and forgive this Grinch for being open with you.

 

Warm thoughts for you and all of the beautiful pups!

 

Steve

 

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"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Here is a picture of a beautiful young dog, Kodiak, 2 years old. Sent for publication by Gloria Davis (this was one of her dogs). He was out of CH Pax River Dozer by Sidetrack and her bitch Emily - there were seven puppies. Five pieds and two fawns. Both parents were fawn.



 This dog was from Linda's pied thread (first post).
Heavily saturated with Deer Run Jericho City & Wycliff.

In my view, this was not a 300 year old throwback, but a more recent cross with the Saint, which accounts for this anomoly.

Rumors of Saints being used at Deer Run is no secret, but to me, this is beyond rumor, it is evidence! Evidence which just underscores the words of Miguel A. Sanchez and others (including Dave Saylor, Tobin's pro handler) who both knew what took place in the 70's.

These more recent crosses, are the most logical explanation for the pied that are showing up presently.

Since 99% of ALL Mastiffs contain DR blood, it is just a matter of mathematics, before Sainted forms appear as pied Mastiffs.

This is not to say that non DR stock are free of the cross, as similar crosses, no doubt, have taken place elsewhere as well.

Once the right pairing clicks, the pied is expressed and then either not discussed, or hidden from view. Best to be known and out in the open!

I commend Jen for her above board presentation and think her pups look healthy & great.










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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #11 
What a lovely surprise!  It seems Mother Nature has a way of keeping us on our toes.  Please keep posting pictures as these babies grow.  I will enjoy watching them mature. 
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Reply with quote  #12 
typo...anomaly.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #13 
Thank you for sharing your little surprise!  I'm thankful they're healthy and look forward to how they mature.

Any indications as to whether their coat length is typical Mastiff, or more of a Saint influence as well?

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Reply with quote  #14 
I think the Pied's are just as nice looking as any other color Mastiff,,,,,after all when all is said and done, don't we just want a healthy with a great temperament Mastiff?  Beautiful little pups, if I wasn't on a waiting list with another breeder I would have grabbed up one of those sweet looking Pied's 
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Reply with quote  #15 
Steve
Genes don't die !!
In all likelihood, the early pied genetics died off, since the Mastiff after the wars were almost extinct.

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Reply with quote  #16 
Correct Grant, genes can't die, but they can die off, if the host does not proliferate and continue carrier lines!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #17 
Oh, they are absolutely adorable.....sure you don't want to send one my way????  :-) 
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Reply with quote  #18 
Those are such cute babies! 
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Reply with quote  #19 
I neutered Dozer because I believed in the standard, it was my blueprint and that was that. He would have been neutered anyway as I wanted him as a pet, not a show or breeding dog, simply to be my friend.  He also had other problems, the major one was being prone to bloat which eventually took his life, the other was his front feet, badly splayed and rolled toes, something I hate and would not breed a dog even with correct coat if it had toes like that or was so prone to bloat.
But I did not condem Carl when he bred Dior and certainly wont jump on Simon and Jennifer if they go ahead.  It is their decision as breeders and I know how much they care about their dogs, most of whom stay with them anyway. 
I was always in two minds about pieds, still am I suppose.  One side of my mind is saying, "Why breed them, you have so many other nice dogs", "It is not life threatening but it is a fault according to the standard".  Other side says who the hell cares, they are beautiful, make great pets, as long as they are healthy and have good temperaments, those are the things that are important, not colour. (And finding the right homes)
Betty believed the colour came from the inbreeding after the war.
The romantic in me always likes to think they are throw backs to Mr. Wynns days.
My pied Dozer as he grew.
Janine

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SteveOifer

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The ancestors of the German Mastiff or Great Dane were the ancient Bullenbeisser (bull-biter), which in turn descended from the Saupacker (boar-hunter). These dogs were heavier, less stream-lined dogs, bred for ferocity rather than looks. The Great Dane has been selectively bred for docility and was very popular in Germany during the 1800s. Otto von Bismarck, a fervent admirer of these dogs, crossed Molossers of Bavaria with the dogs of the North to produce the Dane we know today.




It was the French naturalist Count Buffon (1707-1788) who first described the breed "Grand Danois", in his Histoire Naturelle. However, it is not sure whether he actually coined the name. Some sources believe that the term "danois" comes from the Old French word "danoisé" (spotted).












Great Dane

(German Mastiff, Deutsche Dogge, German Boarhound, Ulmer Mastiff, Danish Dog, Alano, Grand Danois)





There are also references to a 'Petit Danois', a similar dog, but smaller in size, considered by some to be the ancestor of the Dalmatian. However, the illustrations in Buffon's work of the Grand and Petit Danois do not show spotted dogs.






Interesting is that Buffon considered the Great Dane, the Hound, the Mastiff and the Irish Wolfhound as varieties of one and the same breed that evolved under different climatic conditions. His theory was that the (French) mastiff (matin) produced a stockier variety, the Great Dane, under the influence of the colder climate of the North.




Unlike most other molosser breeds, the Great Dane has no loose skin in the neck region. The chest is very deep and V-shaped. Traditionally, the Great Dane's ears were cropped.

The breed holds the record for the tallest dog in the world with Gibson, a Great Dane living in Sacramento, California, which has a shoulder height of 42.6 inches.






Whether the Grand Danois described by Buffon is actually the direct ancestor of the modern Great Dane remains unclear. In the early 1900s some authors, like Bylandt in his treaty 'Dogs of all Nations', still considered the Deutsche Dogge and Great Dane (Danske Hund) as being two different breeds. It was not until 1937 that the breed was recognized by the FCI under the name Deutsche Dogge, although the German breed club recognized the breed under that name as soon as 1877. The Great Dane owes much to the German breeders and the first breed club in Germany. They greatly contributed to the development of the breed and wrote down the first breed standard. However, the first dogs imported to England were of Danish stock, hence probably the reason why they are still known today as 'Great Danes' in the English-speaking world.




However, as a breed, the Great Dane is not the tallest dog breed among canines. On average the Irish Wolfhound is slightly taller with 32 to 34 inches (80-86cm).


Coat Colors

The original Great Dane standard mentions five coat colors : black, harlequin (black and white), fawn, brindle and blue. The AKC also recognizes a sixth color (pattern), Mantle, also known as 'Mantle Tiger' or 'Boston'.


harlequin Great Dane


In England, the breed club was founded in 1885. The Great Dane Club of America was formed in 1889.



In the mantle pattern the black part appears like a mantle or blanket over the back, skull and ears, leaving the legs, throat and neck partially white. In Mantle Danes white markings usually include a white muzzle with or without white blaze, white socks or stockings, white tipped tail, white collar and white chest. White markings should never extend so far upwards as to be found above the flanks, and any disruption in the blanket should be penalized. Head and body should never be predominately white and mantled danes should never be more than 30% white alltogether. Mantled color patterns also exist with a fawn (mantled fawn), blue (mantled blue) or merle mantle (mantled merle). Black-mantled Danes are also known as Bostons, for their similarity to the black-and-white pattern of the Boston Terrier.



Special types of harlequin colors are grey-tiger (grey with black patches), fawnequin (white with fawn patches), brindlequin (white with brindle patches), merlequin (white with brown, grey or blue merle patches, also spelled as 'merlikin') and blue harlequin (white with solid blue patches). The black patches should never be so large as to give the appearance of a blanket, nor so small as to give a stippled or dappled effect. The patches should appear torn and irregular and be evenly distributed over the body. If only few patches are present and unevenly distributed over the body and if they show smooth edges, the color pattern is called piebald. It is not a desirable color pattern in Great Danes.



Multi-colored tigers, grey-tigers, whites, merles and piebalds or parti-colored danes are considered a disqualification and are not admitted in the show ring. Piebald danes are either undermarked Mantledanes or white Danes with colored patches that do not have the distinctive, irregular torn pattern as seen in the Harlequins. All colors and color patterns other than the six recognized ones result from breeding colors outside their categories and carry undesirable color genes or undesirable combinations of genes, reason why they should not be further bred. Only certain pedigreed whites can be bred with specific blacks or harlequins to produce harlequins.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #21 
If the only individual carrying the genes dies without reproducing, they do indeed die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
Steve
Genes don't die !!

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Reply with quote  #22 

Mastiffs after the wars were ALMOST extinct....not extinct.  Much of the old English stock was sent overseas and then returned again later in order to bring numbers back up in England.  It is my belief that those dogs would undoubtedly have been carrying the pied gene because it is in the Mastiff’s unique gene-pool.  The later crosses to Saints have been so unfortunate for true pied Mastiffs because it is probably the main reason they have been condemned to oblivion.  Mastiff people shouldn’t call Saints, Saints, they should call them Taints because that’s what they feel they really are. I don’t share this view but nor do I want too Saintly a Mastiff.  I wish we could tell more easily the differences between a true Pied Mastiff and a Saint/Mastiff Cross and then get over ourselves for faulting any dog for its colouring.  "Health, virility and soundness should always come ahead of breed points, recent breed history and breed club's whims"....Col David Hancock. 


Suggestions, for how we can spot the differences (excuse the pun!...LOL) might be a start for redeeming our pied brothers and sisters. Surely all those who love the Mastiff would also love a true pied Mastiff.  The fact that pieds can throw standard Mastiff colours in their offspring is confirmation enough in my mind that they are indeed one of us. So I list that as one criterion but with no rigidity.


Steve I have to say that the photo that you posted immediately struck me as being a Saint (though I could well be wrong!)  The patterns on our puppies (and Janine’s Dozer!)  are not the same. If you look at the Duke of Hamilton’s Mastiff, you see the white blaze up the face and the brindle patches over the ears and extending down over the eyes.  This pattern doesn’t have to hold true (you can have a patch over the entire head) but it is a pattern that is often mentioned in old literature in relation to pied Mastiffs. Perhaps some merit should be given for this type of marking.


Also all my three pieds (and Dozer!) and the Duke of Hamilton’s pied have a patch on either one or both sides of their ribs, and on their tails along with some random patching down the back.  My female pieds both have 6 patches each while my male pied has nine patches....his name is Gammonwood Nine Chimes.


None of our puppies are long coated.


Thanks everyone for all your comments and views!


Jen

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Reply with quote  #23 
Firstly HUGE congrats Jen and Simon on their lovely, healthy litter, then on their posting.

 


Then, I have to agree 100% in Steve's post on:-


"Personally, I don't consider the pied any more Mastiff than a non pied. The historical pied was just as bastardized as any other Mastiff during that time in history, so I disagree with the good Colonel in that regard.( Col David Hancock viewed them as a sign of strength, Mastiff purity and old diversity making its way through.)

As stated to Jen privately, I believe, that  IF that were the case, then the pups would be dramatically different from the rest of the litter in several other salient features apart from just their mere colour.


The early pied images only show that Alaunt influences, or other crosses were at work, but little else to confirm any specificity as to merit the term of purity, or true Mastiff type."


 Furthermore,

Quoting from :-

 " The Dog    Captain James Dickie" ( though he applies it to disprove telegony)
" My own experience...Many cases are, of course, duly vouched for. I bred a litter of Gordon setters myself; two of twelve were all tan, the remainder black and tan. Both parents were in the Kennel Club Stud Book. Had the dam ever been mated to an Irish setter here would have been a clear case of telegony, but she never had been so mated and had never had a tan or red pup in her life!

The tan pups, in fact, were either sports or throw-backs: the probable explanation is that, as Gordons were very scarce in war-time, an Irish dog had been crossed in and that this dog was an ancestor of both sire and dam.

All unknowingly, I was probably inbreeding to an Irish dog seven or eight generations back."

 Jen, all that happened with your litter  was that, unbeknownst to you  a Saint dog was an ancestor of both sire and dam. Way, way back! and BINGO u doubled up....


I smile at the constant and continued finger pointing at the ' Deer Run blood'  WOW! Tobin so frequently presented as the soul contributor to these 'recent crossings'?! A somewhat naive notion!


As to :-
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan


I am certain our forebears would turn in their grave as to our Global interpretation of their ' blueprint' of the Mastiff today! Cripples winning shows, achieving Champion status and their semen sought after world wide. One only need to travel the Globe to see clearly the results of our interpretation of the ' Standard' 


Given, ' No GOOD dog is a BAD colour! ' Personally, I'd have no problem to include Pied and pure blacks in our standard. After all we live in the ' Saying Sorry' generation! We in Oz to the Aborigines, you guys saying sorry to the Indians. Perhaps it is time to say sorry that our forebear's were remiss to include Pied and Blacks in the 'Standard' !


In my opinion, a MOST productive way to approach this matter would be to collate Global evidence / information from breeders around the world about THEIR experience with pieds!


Let's look at pedigrees and try to identify the common ancestor / ancestors that give us these surprises from time to time..


Best of luck with your litter!  Amasha.


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Reply with quote  #24 
Jen,

Congrats on your litter.  In the photo, Momma looks like a fine example of our breed.

When stuff like that pops up, it only serves to remind us where our dogs come from.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I can't wait to watch the Gammonwood Gilpins grow!

H

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Reply with quote  #25 

Again no disrespect intended but I have to disagree with some points that were made.


 “The historical pied was just as bastardized as any other Mastiff during that time in history. The early pied images only show that Alaunt influences, or other crosses were at work, but little else to confirm any specificity as to merit the term of purity, or true Mastiff type." 


In Wynn’s book he collates over 100 years of Mastiff breeding history in England that occurred prior to his publishing in 1886. He talks about records that were kept of Mastiffs that he and others considered to be true to type. Amongst these typical specimens of the breed were numerous pieds. Mastiffs during Wynn’s time were often being judged against Bewick’s representations of the breed that were put out in the late 1700’s. 


Wynn also talks about a lot of breeders that he had no time for all because of their cross breeding practises. He mentions how one particular breeder had stopped winning at shows because he had deviated too far from what was considered to be correct Mastiff type. Wynn considered pieds equal for purity.

P.S. - Thanks H...don't worry I'll be talking heaps of photos (and footage!)

Janine

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Reply with quote  #26 
Two old prints that we have all seen before.

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Grant

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenK
If the only individual carrying the genes dies without reproducing, they do indeed die.

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Steve
Genes don't die !!

Karen
Genes don't die, is one off Steve's Quote's !!!!!  I was just remembering him !
And i am sure Steve would say that Genes do not indeed die, as for something to die, they first of all have to be alive, and Genes are not classified as alive, they are only part off a live being !!

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Reply with quote  #28 
Correct Grant, we use the term to illustrate the end of a genetic line, even though the death, so to speak, is not actual.

Lines die out and with them their genetic content, a gene does not die on it's own accord. Genes can be implanted, removed, enhanced, etc., using modern technology. Genes can also be used from species that died out 10's of thousands of years ago (e.g. the Mammoth). So if dead, they don't remain dead under controlled conditions!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #29 
Jen,

In all fairness to Wynn, he was of an age that could not validate breeding practices (no DNA tests), nor could he assume that breedings done before his time were controlled.

Pieds did exist, no doubt of that, but we are in the 21st century and follow a standard that does not recognize the color.

You can still enter a Pied in a show, it will just be considered a fault in color. If the judge gives little value to color, then in theory, you can bring a pied to championship status!

The pieds that we have come to be more familiar with, do show Bulldog, or Stafforshire patterning, which is why I indicated a Bulldog connection through Bullmastiff influences.


(Bulldog)

I might add, that the ticking in Dozer's coat is also indicative of
this influence.

Therefore, even though the breed was not totally extinct after the wars, the numbers were still thin, and any pieds produced, would have been eliminated, or hidden, thereby further eliminating genetic flow.

Rejuvenation of the breed included the usage of known & unkown influences, here & abroad. The Bullmastiff influence being much greater than the Saint, especially in pre Deer Run stock. In post Deer Run stock, the Bullmastiff was not a stranger to continued crosses that occurred.
Not to mention accidental breedings, which were known to breeders, or assumptions breeders made as to true parentage.

It's romantic to believe that the pied is a dormant influence of purity, which has somehow spanned the centuries and survived intact.

But taking an objective view of realistic causation & probability, it's hard to believe such is the case.

In all likelihood, pied influence is much closer in, and had it been otherwise, we would have seen a flood of pieds directly after the war, since close inbreeding was prevalent during that time, with attempts at rejuvenating the breed. 

White has always been attributed to the Alaunt and perhaps the early pieds did have that connect. The moderns should not be seen through rose colored glasses in that regard, even though the blaze of white on chests & feet, do show white within most lines.

There are many breeds if crossed to a white, or party colored dog, or a carrier of white, that will exhibit the white influence. So we should not draw romantic conclusions as to ancient causation in this respect.

In a similar vein, fluffs were said to have been influenced by Tibetan stock and once again a stretch, considering the Saint connection.

Perhaps Occam's Razor should be considered in such matters, as it is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.












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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #30 
Addendum,

I'm going to amend my previous statement about the Bullmastiff pied connection, and focus on the Bulldog, or Staff, which might make better sense in certain regards.

When speculating, all logical reasoning must be laid on the table.

Perhaps early Bullmastiff crosses carried the pied, since the close proximity to the Bulldog cross was an inevitable component. Yet not all Bulldogs were pied, so variability can be questioned and rightly so, in this early Bulldog cross to the Mastiff.

Even Wynn believed that both Mastiff & Bulldog had similar origins and therefore, given the pattern we observe in some pieds such as in Dozer & Jen's brood, it's not a great leap of faith to adhere to a Bulldog or Staff influence, which may account for this anomaly popping up on rare occasion.

If the present day Bullmastiff was loaded with the pied gene, we would see tons of pieds in their respective camp, but we don't!

So logically, either the present day Bullmastiff is now free of any pied influence, or early Bullmastiffs did have this trait and passed it on to the Mastiff.

Conversely, if the Mastiff contained the pied, it would have been transferred to the Bullmastiff, through the crosses used in creating that breed, provided the Mastiffs used in that process carried the trait.

It's also possible that the recent introduction of the Saint combined with the Bulldog pied and clicked, even though the expression of the pied is more Bulldog in nature than the Saint in coloration in some instances.

This might make more sense, since the Bulldog pied would be very rare with few pieds emerging, even out of early Mastiff inbreedings, yet after the recent introduction of the Saint, it appears that more Bulldog-like pieds have been produced.

We also see Sainly pieds, as in the photo put up earlier, which does indeed resemble the Saint in coloration, more so than the Bulldog/Staff pied coloration.

Regardless of breed causation as to pied coloration, it is still logical to assume close up influences, rather than ancient relationships, which perseverated over hundreds of years and only now increasing in numbers.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #31 
sorry for double post, but forum server Gods at work again with no delete button!
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tracy

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Reply with quote  #32 
I fixed it for you stve.
Just on another note, that is  frenchie in your pict above, and he would be incorrct in the frenchie ring, frenchies cannot be black and white in thier pied, there must be brindling in the patches. other than that he is a nice boned little dog.
ok, I love the pieds I think for me its because you dont see to many, it catches your eye. I do like the bitch with the puppies, nice head and neck from what I can see.  I wish these puppies well, they are mastiffs after all, and thats what it is all about.

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Reply with quote  #33 
Yes, a Frenchie, but just used to illustrate the point.

Another detail would be the brindle crossed into a Saint. The product would be a pied with brindle covering the solid values and creating a similar coat color as seen in recent pied coat colorings.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #34 
Therefore, a breeding such as Jen's, would have introduced the brindle into the existing pied recessive and created a short haired pied with brindle influence over the fawn, or apricot patchwork. Still indicating a recent (20th century) Saint influence as causation.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #35 
i think i read somewhere that betty baxter remarked havengore used saints after war ? is it also that most of the decriptions of the mid/late 19th century pieds were just white blazed and stockings mostly resembling a mantle dane where as these more recent pieds are looking more saintly or even landseer.
regards dave
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Reply with quote  #36 
Heatherbelle pied.

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birdman

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Reply with quote  #37 
wow janine great pic, do we have any name on that dog for pedigree tracing
dave
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Reply with quote  #38 
Much of the Heatherbelle stock went back to Hellingly and the Cleveland connection, leading to Lady Marton a reported Saint Bernard.
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #39 
If it may be attributed to the bulldog, coming from the bullmastiff introduction, do we know of any pied bullmastiff's being born in recent history??

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Reply with quote  #40 

There have indeed been pied Bullmastiffs crop up including one quite recently in America. I’m sure though someone will find a Saint behind him somewhere...LOL.


The Heatherbelle Mastiffs played a big role in re-establishing the Mastiff after WW2 and even they had pieds in their lines. If we respect our dog’s ancestry we shouldn’t bury the pied coloured Mastiff. I don’t think we should worry either about a whole new strain of pied Mastiffs coming along. They are elusive and always have been. We don’t believe anyone would be able to just start producing pieds even if they wanted to. You could put together two lines which you know carry the gene but that is still no guarantee you will get one. If we bred a pied we would expect to just get fawns, brindles and apricots. It would only be on the off chance that we might get another pied....we believe they are not predictable.

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Reply with quote  #41 
Jen without disrespect,
 
 
 
 

"In Wynn’s book he collates over 100 years of Mastiff breeding history in England that occurred prior to his publishing in 1886. He talks about records that were kept of Mastiffs that he and others considered to be true to type. Amongst these typical specimens of the breed were numerous pieds. Mastiffs during Wynn’s time were often being judged against Bewick’s representations of the breed that were put out in the late 1700’s. "


All very subjective, word of mouth, interpretation of individuals being influenced by their own PERSONAL taste and flavour of the day and all previous representation viewed through the eyes of the painter of the day... few records / pedigrees  were accurately, if kept at all. Much of the collated information was based on 'heresy and guesswork'!
 Lyme Hall was presented and believed to be by some as of 'pure' lineage going back to 1415...'they could be piebald or brown and white'  Betty Baxter in the  'History and Management of the Mastiff' p 17 furthermore notes that, 'they were very different from today's animals.....They did, however, look very like the Mastiff painted by Van Dyke in his famous portrait of King Charles I's children...."
 
The Gordian knot has not , nor will it be solved because of the very origin of our breed.....just look at the variation in our headtype today! 
 
   Re Gloria Davis's pied dog...  He was out of CH Pax River Dozer by Sidetrack and her bitch Emily - there were seven puppies. Five pieds and two fawns. Both parents were fawn.
Gloria also claimed that a certain dog in the pedigree had sired several Pied in the USA.
I believe with the advent of technology today identification of possible common denominator would be a far easier road to take.
PS. I think if you repeated the mating you would have a very good chance to have pieds again...but like with brindle X fawns...you may only get a small % of one or the other.
Hope that all your puppies are blosoming and blooming!
Amasha

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Reply with quote  #42 
Kathleen, see my post #30
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #43 
Congratulations on your litter Jennifer and Simon!

There was a debate/thread a few yrs back here on pieds, as many of you are aware, and I was just horrified and sickened at the time with the level of 'condemnation' for them and any breeders who may have had them in their lines. Horrified at the thought breeders would 'cull' them or more precisely murder them as puppies to hide it from the world, as if they were some shameful abomination. 

I am pleased you have chosen act for the welfare of pied's, both your own and in general, and I know you are strong and resourceful enough to be influential in this respect.  
 
   
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If we respect our dog’s ancestry we shouldn’t bury the pied coloured Mastiff.


Totally agree with your statement above, and yes, its not about trying to breed a new strain of pied mastiffs, but just to accept they are part of mastiff history and the gene pool. 

All the best with your mastiff babies, they look gorgeous! Hugs to Gracie.


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Reply with quote  #44 
From a post made by Dave (Collie) several years ago..........

I have been collating some interestng historical information from "The History and Management of the Mastiff" by Betty Baxter and Pat Hoffman, The Mastiff and Bullmastiff Handbook by Douglas Oliff, and "Bullmastiffs Today" by Lyn Pratt.

It's always represented that the (UK) Kennel Club started in 1927 registering Bullmastiffs (first calling them Bull Mastiffs) because they were an existing breed which deserved recognition. Actually from about 1881 it had been registering dogs as Bull-Mastiff or later as Cross Bred Bull-Mastiff, but for the most part they just meant a dog with one parent a Mastiff and the other a Bulldog. What existed more widely was a motley crew of mixed breed dogs, most with some Mastiff, some with some bulldog, and a lot with a load of other breeds in their heritage, and a number of breeders who wanted a piece of the lucrative "registered dog" pie of inflated prices and the ability to advertise show wins. The KC was happy to take their business by creating a breed for them, not unlike in recent times the way the CKC has been happy to accept the "American Mastiff" as a breed.

The whole story of the Bullmastiff being created in a 40%-60% combination was a fiction by S.E. Moseley in the 1920's, who did work out how it could be done, but provided absolutely no evidence that he ever actually did it. Moseley, who had the kennel names Farcroft and Hamil, was possibly the first large-breed puppy farmer, also breeding German Shepherd Dogs and bloodhound-mastiffs (???). He received KC complants about misrepresenting the photograph of a dog and another complaint that led to Farcroft Formidable having his registration cancelled. He issued various pamphlets promoting his dogs and claimed to have shipped world-wide. His bitter enemy was J. Barrrowclough, who had the Stapleford and Parkvale kennel names. He was a breeder of Mastiffs and Bullmastiffs, though Moseley claimed his Bullmastiffs were really small Mastiffs. Stapleford Pedro, believed to be a Mastiff, was used on bitches considered Bullmastiffs, and several offspring found their way back into the Mastiff gene pool.

It must be supposed that the KC simply did not have the facilities to check back on all their registratons to see if everything was above board. When they allowed the new breed, it was with the stipulation that the registered anmals must be three generations of Bullmastiffs with no crossing, but since there was no prior existing registry, they were asking the impossble, so what was happpening was that animals from the same litter were being registered as Crossbreds, or as Bullmastiffs, or even as Mastiffs. This was, afterall, at a time when most dogs were not being registered at all, and for the previous sixty years the KC had merely taken the word of the owners as gentlemen that the details of a dog, including what breed it was, were exactly as the owner stated.

So who were the dogs that ended up being registered as "Bull Mastiffs"? As has been posted by me and others, the Mastiff breed had been developed from both English and foreign dogs in the early 19th century, so by the 1880's people pretty much knew what they were talking about by the word Mastiff, though type was inconsistent. Writing in 1886, George R. Jesse said that an old work indicated the bulldog had been "somewhat smaller than a mastiff, but in form nearly allied to it, the body robust and the lips pendulous at the sides". He though the bulldogs of his day (at least those being exhibited at shows) were "disgusting abominations": "mere caricatures of the original race". In 1882, H. Smith wrote "In a great many Bulldogs, there is clear evidence of the Mastiff cross for size, or the Pug dog for cross for body and darkness of muzzle". We know Bill George, the dog dealer who was important in mid 19th century Mastiffs, had Bulldogs as his main breed. When he started, they were used for fighting, but later he oversaw the transition to them becoming a pet breed, and he developed the miniature Bulldog. He could largely be responsible for changng the shape of bulldogs by introducing the Pug.
There is another important component to the Bullmastiffs that were registered from 1927: The Gamekeepers Night Dog. described by Idstone in 1872 as a Mastiff or Mastiff crossed with Bloodhound. Breeders might add virtually any large breed based on their own ideas or on what was avalable. Some tried Great Danes for size or Greyhounds for speed. Long coats attributed to St Bernards and Newfoundlands occurred. These were the dogs used by gamekeepers on large estates to catch poachers, who would normally be armed: the only criterion was performance. John Crabtree was a gamekeeper in the early years of the 19th century who bred many of the early Mastiffs, and there are similarities between his dogs and the Night Dogs at the end of the century, excepting Crabtree's were larger and bigger headed. A Night Dog called Thornywood Terror was exhibited around Britain in the early 1900's where he was muzzled and then would knock down volunteers. He sired many other Gamekeepers Night Dogs and, though he was probably less than 100 pounds and looked like a Labrador cross, he sired three pups registerd as Mastiffs in 1903 out of a registered Mastifff dam. He was the sire of 3 further registered mastiffs and a registered Cross Breed Bull-Mastiff. There were another 3 registered Bull-Mastiffs where the sire was spelled Thorney Wood Terror. One of Moseley's dogs, Farcroft Pedro, had Thorneywood Terror as his sire. This type of dog was widespread in the UK, and many of Moseley's dogs were of this type. The result of all this was that the Bullmastiff of the twenties was a dog of no distinct type, and it was only in the thirties that the breeders began to select dogs of the current type, and it really wasn't until the fifties, within the lifetime of some of us on this forum, that the Bullmastiff achieved any degree of consistency.

These pictures compare Thorneywood Terror with Osmaston Turk, a double crossbred with 1/4 bloodhound.

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I might add, that Roger of the Fenns goes back to Lady Marton as well, so a Saint influence in the Bullmastiff existed and possibly went straight through to Templecombe Taurus & Nydia of Frithend.


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #45 
There have indeed been pied Bullmastiffs crop up including one quite recently in America. I’m sure though someone will find a Saint behind him somewhere...LOL.

If the Bullmastiff was a cross created by breeding a Bulldog to the Mastiff, then the Saint could have easily come through the Mastiff side of the cross.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #46 
Thanks Steve - having a duh moment here!


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Reply with quote  #47 
I question this statement

"You can still enter a Pied in a show, it will just be considered a fault in color. If the judge gives little value to color, then in theory, you can bring a pied to championship status!"

Surely you would have trouble registering any animal with a "non standard" coat colour? What is he stance of the AKC regarding these sorts of matters? Would you have to incorrectly state (ie, lie!) about the colour in order to register these animals?

In NZ we've recently had issues with "silver" labradors.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #48 
From the AKC Labrador standard.............

The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification.

The AKC standard for the Mastiff does not list any disqualifications..........

Faults--Excessive white on the chest or white on any other part of the body. Mask, ears, or nose lacking dark pigment.

So in theory, just as in a long haired Mastiff, it can be entered in a show and left up to the judge's discretion.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #49 
In Dozer's case, he could have been listed as a brindle, since he had brindle markings.

The fact that he had excessive white, which due to it's degree we call pied, is inconsequential as far as registration is concerned.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

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Reply with quote  #50 
I am not actually sure how you would go with the registration question there, my Dozer was on the limited register due to his colour being non standard.  That meant he was neither suitable for showing or breeding, but that is a good point Steve, technically he could have been registered as a brindle.
Janine.
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