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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #451 
That is certainly a caveat!

It was one of the reasons I had reservations about such anomalies, even with testing being available.

Fortunately, we are now discussing a cosmetic trait, not a health issue.

Even though the same genetic transmission might apply, at least it's not one that will have negative health related consequences.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #452 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
That is certainly a caveat!

It was one of the reasons I had reservations about such anomalies, even with testing being available.

Fortunately, we are now discussing a cosmetic trait, not a health issue.

Even though the same genetic transmission might apply, at least it's not one that will have negative health related consequences.

Steve 
You had better hope Erika is away on holiday, as i seem to recall the pair of you on another thread, debating over why you said, type should prevail over health !!!

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #453 
I still believe that, but there is now a test that can control this cosmetic type.

It's why I have lowered, not eliminated, my reservations!

I would first be a hypocrite, if I never adjusted my views, as progress is made, which alters the ramifications of a specific topic!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #454 
*I might add, that the pied may have stronger historic relevance compared to the fluff and therefore, must be argued differently.

Not every cosmetic anomaly should be valued identically. A Rottweiler colored Mastiff in my view, should be seen as off type to a greater extent when compared to a pied. Some might argue otherwise, but historical markers should count for something!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #455 
To preserve a breed, you choose type over health. In those terms, I'm steadfast in my view.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

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Reply with quote  #456 
Last one (I think).  Still have lots of pages to go through.

Our Dogs
To the Editor of "Our Dogs"
Sir - I have been more than surprised, when reading the recent correspondence on this subject in your columns, as the wild statements, several of which, based on "hearsay", cannot be accepted as evidence at all, while others are definitely open to contradiction.  As parts of the correspondence seem to throw doubt or suspicion on three persons (each of whom I held in great esteem) who are now deceased, and cannot reply to the aspersions cast upon them or substantiate statements they are supposed to have made, I feel compelled to take up the cudgels on their behalf.  I wish it to be distinctly understood that, while not doubting the integrity of the writers, I feel certain they have been misinformed, and so have misunderstood the facts.
I was just a youngster at the time I first met the late Mr. Price at Darlington in 1892 (the year I owned my first Mastiff), and I had not the pleasure of meeting Mr. George Cook until about two years later.  A few years after this I first met Mr. Joine(?), who previously kept St Bernards, and who acquired his first Mastiff Oscott Sheila, about May 1908.  With reference to Mr. Bennett's letters in your issues of Oct 6 and 13, I never heard it admitted by any authority on the breed that Cleveland Leopold and Cleveland Monarch were sired by a St. Bernard.  I may say here that Caractacus was a huge-bodied dark-fawn dog - he was never exhibited owing to his near fore leg not being straight - and Princess Marton was also a fawn.  Duke of Mentrose, out of the same litter, was the first one to be exhibited, and won the Novice class at Darlington, 1905, under the late Mr. F. Gresham (who knew his Mastiffs).  Cleveland Leopold made his first appearance under the late Dr Sidney Turner, who was favourably impressed by him.  Now had Cleveland Leopold been sired by a St Bernard could he possibly have been such a successful sire as he proved to be?  He sired two champions in one litter - Ch. Brompton Duke and Ch. Brompton Duchess - which won 25 certificates between them.  I do not know of any case where anything approaching a St Bernard was sired by him, and the offspring have proved themselves incontestably  to be the best ??? in the breed.
As regards Mr. Bennett's statement in his letter of Oct 13 issue of what Mr. Joice informed him, some misunderstanding must have arisen.  I am afraid I cannot accept the story at all, as the architectural structure of the late Mr. Price's premises made it impossible for anyone to see the kennels, the only open way to which was through the shop or house.  Furthermore, considering the number of good Mastiffs Mr Price at different times owned, I think it in the highest degree improbable that he would resort to a St Bernard cross, and even if he made this experiment one cannot imagine that he would have allowed anyone to witness it, even by accident.  It is also only reasonable to think that if Mr Joice saw Mr Price trying to mate his (Mr Joice's Mastiff bitch with a St Bernard he would have made a stir about it at the time: and it appears strange that this should have been first heard of after both parties are dead.  There is another reason why it is inconceivable, and that is, can any person believe that Mr Price would be so foolish as to do this when the resulting litter would probably at once prove what had been done.
There is no positive evidence in Mr Baggaley's letter.  I always understood that Penkhull Lady was a red, and was registered as such.  As regards his statement that further evidence of the St Bernard having been used is shown in the white feet was very common in the brindles bred by and shown by Col Z Walker, and nobody who remembers him would say that a St Bernard was ever introduced into the Fox Hollies Hall Kennels.
I only remember three reds by Cleveland Leopold being exhibited pre-war, and the reds which have been shown since the war, although Cleveland Leopold appears in their pedigree, must attribute their colour to Penkhull Lady, as red has not cropped up in any of the other exhibits claiming Cleveland Leopold as their ancestor, where Penkhull Lady blood does not appear.  In a nutshell, Cleveland Leopold alone has not produced reds, but the same cannot be said for Penkhull Lady.
Yours etc.,  Fred H Cleminson.
Janine

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Reply with quote  #457 
An old book I have has this written on the front page.
This work on DOGS was recovered from a damaged book entitled
THE ILLUSTRATED STOCK DOCTOR
The author IS UNKNOWN
Actual date of publication unknown but similar two works of the period 1890-1920.

The Mastiff is a commanding and powerful animal in every respect, and although possessed of high courage, his temper can be more relied upon than any of the large dogs.  He makes an admirable yard dog, and will protect his master's property with zealous vigilance.  In England he has been known for many years, and old works give cuts of this breed scarcely changed in characteristics from the modern animal.  He is doubtless indigenous to Great Britain.  The Cuban Mastiff is much like the English dog, but shows that he has been crossed with the bloodhound. 
The points of the Mastiff are:  A large had, partaking of the shape of the bloodhound and bulldog, with great muscle, and having, to a great extent, the hanging upper lips of the hound; ear small, drooping somewhat; eye small.  In shape he resembles the hound, but is much more compact and with more bone.  Loin well knit and strong, limbs powerful, tail rough and carried over the back.  Tone of voice loud and deep, coat smooth, colour red or fawn, with dark, or what is preferred black muzzle, or brindled or black, or black, red or fawn and white; height, 30 to 34 inches.
The Mount St. Bernard dog is closely allied to the Mastiff, but has the appearance of having Newfoundland blood in his veins, with the nature and desire to fetch and carry of the latter.  This dog is used by the monks on the alps to rescue snow-bound travelers.
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #458 
I believe it was Lady Marton, not Princess Marton which was the alleged Saint. It would appear that the discourse through snail mail skewed some of the perceptions.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

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Reply with quote  #459 
I hope this works, I have found so much more, including reference to pied here.  Scanning is easier, so much of it is hard to read. 
Fingers crossed.

Janine

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Reply with quote  #460 
This is it for now, I hope, much faster and easier than typing it all out. I dont think there is any more in regards to colour.
What I find most interesting in all of this is:  Arguments about colour in mastiffs have been going on for more years than I reaslised, first there was Wynn and him wanting pied colour, that was hit on the head, then the argument against red, yet Taunton wanted blue and blue brindle in.  Now the same (more or less) discussion is still raising debate. 
I have to say, I think that it is a hell of a shame that the energy used in arguing about colour was not put into type (not cosmetic) and soundness.  Perhaps the drawing I posted on another thread would have been totally different.
Steve, I agree, I believe it was Lady Marton as well, I have pedigrees Betty did with her listed and she is written in as a Saint.  But they say here that the Wardle painting was of Lady and or Princess.  (If I have not scanned that particular one I will go back and find it).
Janine.

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Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #461 

Janine,

That was such a wonderful journey into the scope and timeless value of the colour debate within the breed. It has also highlighted that no matter the time-period humans have been shaping their dogs: through observation, understanding, experimentation, dedication.
It was so exciting to see the scans...( Jen was in heaven as you know she lives for stuff like that....lol). Thank you so much.
The decision to breed to Mastiffs is never an easy one if you are true to your conviction to improve the progeny by seeking the traits and features you so admire.
A Mastiff is so much more than the sum of the Standard. Their unique bravery, unending loyalty and largeness of life, can never be reduced to words.

Jennifer,
The Brindle Pied that you like is Gammonwood Nine Chimes: The only male amongst the seven girls and the ninth Mastiff that Jen and I have owned together. He is such a character: already, knows his name, loves his food, runs his harem with an aloof superiority and a complete playful joy.
We are so lucky!
The female Fawn Pied you like is Gammonwood Seventh Song. She will be the seventh girl to share our lives. She will dwell here with us, her brother, mother and father, her 2 aunties, two grandma’s and her big grand daddy.
She has the heart of a full grown Mastiff at six weeks. She is soft as snow, clever as a fox and a total darling.
We are so blessed..... LOL 
 
To everyone else, (including those apparently having conversations about this thread via IM).
We do so hope you feel that you can “object to the mighty Gammonwood”.
(What an amazingly flattering and totally untrue compliment....ROFLOL)
No one should feel that they should not contribute to this discussion. What is there to be afraid of? We have been challenged with excellent arguments EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. We have not run from this. Rather we have welcomed it.
We have answered thoughtfully and respectfully to EVERY person that has civilly offered honest and alternative views and have not judged them for those views.
So please, to everyone that feels for whatever reason they can’t post on this forum, if you have something to say start doing so. If you approach the debate with friendliness and a desire to express your point of view, we can all gain greater understanding.

This Thread, this forum, this most admirable community is so much better when we all contribute to what is greater than the sum of us all.
OUR MASTIFFS!

Warmest regards
Si (and Jen)

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #462 
Click image for larger version - Name: IMG.jpg, Views: 7, Size: 4.79 MB   It appears that the inbreeding brought out the Saint in color coming from Cleveland stock. It's why we may challenge Mr. Price's alleged comments regarding Lady Marton, but evidence appears to supersede the doubters on this subject. Mr. Price bred both Saints & Mastiffs and one should not be shocked if the alleged cross was intentional, or accidental. Mr. Oliver et al might wish to find the inbreeding at fault, but inbreeding only expresses what is there to be found. If a Saint was used several generations back, then the inbreeding revealed it's presence, it did not create the anomaly in and of itself!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #463 
In the early part of the 20th century, color was a determining factor regarding purity of breed. I would like to also mention some other forces at play, during that period in time, which may have also impacted on the color red and some secondary reasons for it being out of favor.

Surprisingly, one negative factor may have been ....the mink!

At the turn of the 20th century, mink farming was becoming very popular and lots of money was being made in the pelt trade. Selective farming & breeding practices, created many new beautiful colors of mink, and those in high society had a great penchant for luxury items made of mink and in particular rare colorations.

The Japanese minks were considered inferior and their red color gave away their lesser pedigree. Some would resort to dyeing the reds into more popular colors, but one could tell a dyed mink from a natural mink fairly easily. It was not until the mid to latter part of the 20th century, that Japanese wild minks became popular, since high prices of farm raised minks drew people into the less expensive Japanese product, plus the stigma was no longer as strong as before.

Therefore, there may have been a cultural aversion to the red color among those breeding Mastiffs in the early years, simply because it was a sign of lesser stature as a color, stemming from perceptions of the mink fur trade and how it overlapped into the general population.

There has been nothing written on this relationship and I am speculating in part, because of my early background in the fur trade and my familiarity & history of the color red in both camps.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MuddyFlews

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Reply with quote  #464 

Hi Everyone,

We accept Si’s invitation, if we can contribute at least a drop of what we’ve learned here from all of you we will consider ourselves better stewards of the dogs that we all love.

We would like to share our Dharma’s story with you.  Dharma is a Yorkshire Terrier.  In our opinion she fits her breed standard in many ways.  She is really a low maintenance girl, her natural coat is perfectly straight and beautiful.  We’ve had the pleasure of watching her lively, graceful gait as she participated in a great field mouse chase near our pond lot; but we may never watch her head held high in a show ring, you see Dharma closely meets her breed standard  except that she has a bit more than an inch of white on her chest.

Thanks to some breeders and the AKC, the parti (or pied) Yorkshire Terrier is on the full register.  So while Dharma may not compete in a show ring, she could pass on her outstanding natural coat quality to her offspring when bred to a Yorkshire Terrier of traditional coat color in light of recent color DNA discovery. 

A series of extraordinary coincidences has led us to Gammonwood, and most recently to the newest addition to our family; an exquisite apricot pied mastiff girl.  Jen and Si, with your blessing:  Gammonwood A Cappella, as when she comes to us she will no longer be accompanied by Chimes and Song .

We look forward to sharing Ell’s story and many others with you all,

Holly and Joe

 

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Janine

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Reply with quote  #465 
Welcome Holly and Joe,
First off, I think your Dhama is stunningly beautiful.  Prettiest I have seen.
I am so glad you have your pied mastiff and I look forward to seeing lots of photos of her as she develops. 
Janine.
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #466 

Dearest Holly & Joe,

 

You have more than our blessing, you have our heartfelt gratitude and deepest respect.
We could think of no better family or life for Ell.

She and Dharma are made for each other. What a pair those two will make.

Gammonwood A Cappella it is!
May her voice be sweet and long

 

Much Love

Si & Jen

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Reply with quote  #467 

Unfortunately we’ve had to inform Joe and Holly that we cannot send them our Apricot Pied puppy.

According to our governing canine body, Limited Register dogs are not permitted for export.

It seems that the Pied Mastiff is not even allowed all available options for good pet homes.

 

There aren’t that many special people in this world and we were so happy for A Cappella to be going to Joe and Holly.   It didn’t matter to them that they couldn’t

show or breed her.  They were prepared to love her for just being herself and go to great expensive to have her. They were also prepared to stand up for her

no matter what was going to get thrown at them.  No Mastiff should ever be denied the opportunity for such a faithful home.

 

We are sad for Joe and Holly and sad too for all pied Mastiffs. They are all  A Cappellas: beautiful lone voices that most refuse to hear.

Grant

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Reply with quote  #468 
So are you saying that, people can only export a fully registered  dog from Australia ?


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Grant

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Reply with quote  #469 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
So are you saying that, people can only export a fully registered  dog from Australia ?


Or are you saying , you are not prepared to send the pup as a totally unregistered dog, which would then surely not involve your governing body ! 

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Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #470 

No Mate,

It just means the following
 
1. Our governing body requires us to register all pups from a purebred mating.
2. Pups that are non-Standard colours cannot be placed onto the Full Register.
3. According to the governing body, limited register pups cannot be exported.


Registered breeders must abide by the laws governing them. We are not prepared to "not register" the pups.
Breeders can only send dogs on the full register overseas.
As established previously, we do not skate laws and as such any limited register pups will stay in Australia.

Hope this is clear

Cheers
Si & Jen

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #471 
Can you sell them a dog in Australia and then have them take the dog out of the country? Would that be a way of getting around the exporting label, if the owner leaves with the dog?
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MuddyFlews

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Reply with quote  #472 

Hello Everyone,

As you know we have had a change in circumstances and A Cappella is not coming to us.  As we expressed to Si and Jen: “we really did not see that coming”.  This news should not have come as a surprise to us because we didn’t see any of this coming.  We did not plan to bring a piebald Yorkshire Terrier home with us last winter.  Si and Jen did not plan to breed a litter of mastiffs to include piebald this spring; much less plan their whelp just before the discovery of the gene that marks their coat color this summer.  We did not plan to add a Gammonwood Mastiff to our pack this fall.  What is all of this really about?  Is this really about kennel club standards?

Maybe this is about the return of polite society where correspondence (even email) actually includes cheerful salutations and complimentary closes, where rules are respected and decisions are made with integrity.  Maybe this is about people from all walks of life coming together in appreciation for history, art, science and literature; in wonder of nature; in awe of discovery; in genuine delight at the good fortune of others, in finding solutions and supporting each other’s cause.

Who were these people that tossed these miracles of nature, these piebald Yorkshire Terrier and piebald Mastiff puppies into a bucket to die?  Certainly not members of polite society.  So maybe this is not about the return of polite society after all; maybe this is about its arrival.

In keeping with the Gilpin experience, we did not plan to add Ell’s stunning apricot sister to our family but we are excited to announce that we have.  Si and Jen, don’t be sad; we believe that A Cappella’s sweet voice will be heard from your home along with Nine Chimes and Seventh Song, and that it will be joined in Harmony here in ours.

Warmest Regards To All,

Joe and Holly


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 Joseph Mastiffs
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #473 
It's a sad state of affairs, when truly great owners are prevented from acquiring a pup of their choice, due to red tape. In our great country, a total imbecile can walk into any pet shop and leave 10 minutes later with a pup in hand!

NUTS!!!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

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Reply with quote  #474 
This was a curve ball I didn't see coming either.  I don't see why our Governing body have this rule in place.  What the hell difference does it make to sell a full register or limited register dog overseas as long as it is going to a great home.  That should be the whole point of the exercise of breeding, a home where the dog will be loved and looked after.
Every week here in Victoria, on Tuesdays and Thursdays hundreds of puppies are shipped overseas to brokers and nothing is done, granted, these are the "product" of puppy farmers and nothing to do with the ANKC, rotten so called breeders get away with it all the time.
Other, registered Mastiff breeders have sent full litters to Pet Central in Hawaii, this is against the COE here yet they have got away with it, and it is in the rules that you cannot sell to a dealer, pet shop, market etc. I have counted over 70 full register pups which Mr. MacDougall has imported to his hell hole, AND THEY GET AWAY WITH IT.
It seems that if you strive to do the right thing and follow the rules you are simply slapped in the face.
I am glad Holly and Joe are still getting a pup, Harmony is going to be a lucky girl, but the point is, she is not the pup originally selected and they should have been allowed to import whichever one they wanted.
The whole thing stinks.
Janine.
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Just changing what I wrote prior, the whole point in the exercise of breeding should be to improve on what you already have.  Breed good Mastiffs.
BUT, then the breeder should make the perfect forever home his/her next priority.
Janine
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Hi Everyone,

As promised we have news to share with you about our Gammonwood mastiffs (yes, two of them)!  We met Harmony’s Diadem and her sister A Cappella at the airport yesterday and we are just smitten.  As impressive as the Gammonwood pups are in photos they are even more breathtaking in person. 

We were all a little anxious during their journey, tracking flights continuously but these bold voyagers arrived in perfect puppy condition; happy as clams.  They were obviously very well attended the entire time.  The ride home with them was really pleasant, seasoned travelers that they are, and of course they charmed everyone that they met during stops along the way. 

Getting to know them and helping them explore their new world is such a treat for us, we just had to share it with everyone so we hope you enjoy the pictures.  Both pups are stellar; healthy, balanced and a joy to watch. 

Thank you for your kind thoughts and suggestions; all of which contributed to bringing both the pups home to us.  Si and Jen, there are no words.

Warm Regards,

Joe and Holly

Attached Images
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Reply with quote  #477 
Congratulations on the arrival of your beautiful babies, I hope you have many years of happiness together.  They certainly don't look fazed by the trip.
Keep the photos coming.
Janine
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Reply with quote  #478 

We are so relieved that both pups have arrived at such a wonderful home.

Our biggest concern was with the many hours of travel and with Joe and Holly asking for both pups, sending them together eased our concerns for the brave little souls.

 

As you all know, Joe and Holly originally wanted our Apricot Pied, A Cappella,  but when it was found that she could not be exported as a Mastiff they opted for her Apricot sister, Harmony.

After many emails from many supportive people, we found that we were permitted to send A Cappella as a pet without her registration papers.

Joe and Holly were thrilled and asked for A Cappella as well, knowing full well that on paper one is a pure bred Mastiff and the other is undefined.

Kinda crazy considering that they are sisters, litter-mates and made of exactly the same genetic material as each other!

 

Thank you to everyone who showed us support and the invaluable advice from other noted mastiff folk in Australia.

Karen D and Janine especially gave us the knowledge and strength to allow the girls to embark on their Mastiff Migration

Both pups will now enjoy the lives that every Mastiff deserves

 

Holly and Joe -  You are such amazing people and your passion and dedication to your dogs is so admirable.

Thank you both so much.

 

Much love as always

Si & Jen

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Reply with quote  #479 
Just a few photos of our pair of Gilpins.  Chimes, our brindle pied male is huge! Songs, our fawn pied female is SO clever! Both are affectionate, playful and  just amazing to look at!  We’re not used to seeing Mastiffs in this colour, it’ such a treat.  We hope you enjoy the photos.
Warmest wishes
S&J
 

Attached Images
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Some of the last photos we have of A Cappella and Harmony before their move to America.

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Reply with quote  #481 
Love the pups and love the pics.
Have you had much rain up your way, it looks really dry in the background.
Glad to see you still have your Highland babies too.
Janine.
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Reply with quote  #482 
Love them!
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Reply with quote  #483 
Awwwww, great pic!
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Reply with quote  #484 
Really lovely Mastiff babies.  Chimes is my favorite!!  I am just delighted by this litter!
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Reply with quote  #485 

Janine so glad you like the photos.

We are little grey here at the moment....just the end of winter it’s greening up with each new spring day.

Not much rain this past month though.

Yes the Highlands are still here, they keep the Mastiffs amused for hours when they come up to the house for hay in the mornings.

It’s a great workout for them running up and down the yards making sure the Bovines aren’t too close to their turf.

Erika I love that photo too! I don’t think she wants Mum stealing her stick...LOL.

Thanks Christin and Karen

Jennifer your taste is impeccable...LOL.

We’re so glad you’re enjoying our litter, we share them for this reason.

Should have some footage of them out soon.

Warmest regards

Jen

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Reply with quote  #486 
Hi Folks,

We've been taking a long computer break but thought it was time to share some recent photos with you of our misfit pieds.  They've just turned 6 months old and are growing like weeds. They have been such a joy to have with us.
We just have to look at Chimes to laugh, he is comical in so many ways and  seems perfectly happy about it all. Songs is elegant. She has airs of grace all about her and such pure devotion. They are both amazing to look at and have such gentle and loving natures.

On the side lines we've doing as much research as we can about pieds and have learned so much in the process. The new science now available to breeders has enabled us to test our pieds for both the piebald gene and for breed purity. A report on our pieds was just published in the current OEMC newsletter. Holly and Joe Moody, (the owners of our apricot pied A Cappella), were kind enough to supply information for the article about how the pied gene is carried.

Being able to identify the pied gene means that we now know all the scenarios required to produce pieds. We know how to effectively use them in breeding programs and not produce them, and we know how to eradicate them all together from the Mastiff gene-pool. This last prospect obviously concerns us the most. 

We've asked Holly and Joe if they wouldn't mind posting a copy of their research, it certainly made us aware of a lot of things we didn't have a clue about in the past. Just so you know, our pieds were found to be carrying two copies each of the piebald gene (sp,sp). Their mother and father only carry one copy each of the piebald gene (S,sp).

Mars Veterinary Services did the test for breed purity.
Holly has just received A Cappella's results.
Apparently she IS a Mastiff

All the best wishes for 2013
We hope the new year brings you all lots of slobbery kisses.


Si & Jen


Chime_dec_17_2012_01.jpg


Chimes_&_Male_4_dec_17_2012_083.jpg



Songs_6_months_old_dec_27_2012_05.jpg



Songs_6_months_old_dec_27_2012_062.jpg

Attached Images
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #487 
All nice looking pieds, although I personally favor the Blk & Whites for coloration, but purely subjective on my part.

I don't think there was, or should have been any doubt about their pedigree. They are certainly Mastiffs and never any doubt, in this poster's mind, that they were bred from pedigreed Mastiffs.

I would like to add, that as far as I know, the testing for breed identity is limited to the data, based on the average Mastiff.

When I contacted one of the genetic labs for breed identity, they told me they could not break out breed components that went into the making, or history of the general breed. In other words, if the Mastiff as a breed was influenced by the Bulldog, or Bullmastiff, the researchers would not be able to extract that info from their existing methods in collecting data.

So although the testing would show that the pied was all Mastiff, it does not detect where the gene originated, or determine what was causative for the coloration.

Just stating this as a clarifying element, unless the state of the art has since changed beyond my relatively recent personal understanding.

Looking forward to seeing them in future postings as they mature.



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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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h

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Reply with quote  #488 
They are very cute and without a doubt, they are Mastiffs.

The most important thing is that they are loved and treated like family members.


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Reply with quote  #489 
They have grown so much and look beautiful.  I love the brindle and white myself, they are so different from the "normal" pied colours.
Never any doubt in my mind either as to the purity of them.
Janine.
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Reply with quote  #490 
Unless there is a new DNA test ( blood or cheek cells ) for the pied gene, this is nothing new - it is a simple recessive.  Just like the long haired gene.. same scenerio.  Two carriers get together and produce visuals  ( 2 copies of the pied gene vs. one copy) Two carriers will produce 50% carriers, 25% visuals, and 25% non carriers. I don't mean to be a wet blanket and take away from your friens "research", but this has been common knowledge for many years.

None the less, your pies babies are beautiful and the colors are absolutely striking.  It does make them look a lot different than the usual mastiffs, and I understand why the color is not presently accepted in the mastiff standards ( although it may be someday) but personally, I LOVE them.  Your babies have excellent confirmation too -- really nice.

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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
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Hi Everyone,

Cappella and Harmony love the snow. We were able to catch a couple of pics of the them foraging, and here are a couple of inside shots. Jen says that they still have the same personalities as when they were babies; Harmony is so ambitious – up in the middle of everything. Cappella is very gracious and quiet but will jump in after a full assessment. We still catch them moving in unison, poetry in motion.

We have done quite a bit of research into the piebald gene inheritance and still learning, and our research goes beyond the Punnet Square. Now that the piebald gene has been identified we can predict whether or not any breeding will produce piebald pups fairly accurately. Linda is right, this is not new information. What is new is the ability to test for the recessive piebald gene and determine if the breeding candidate is a carrier. Many are not aware of the mode of inheritance. We have outlined six possible breeding scenarios to outline what to expect when breeding various combinations of dogs according to what they carry on the “S” locus, and this is the information requested by the OEMC for their newsletter: 

The first three scenarios cannot produce piebald pups, the last three scenarios may produce piebald pups as follows:

             S= solid or brindle; sp = piebald

1.    Breeding two dogs with solid or brindle coats (S,S) to (S,S), neither carrying the piebald gene: 100% of these puppies will be solid or brindle (S,S), and none of them will carry the piebald gene.

2.    Breeding a solid or brindle dog that does not carry the piebald gene (S,S) to a solid or brindle dog that does carry the piebald gene (S,sp):  The percentages are random. 50% of them may have solid or brindle coats and will not carry the pied gene (S,S). 50% of the puppies may have solid or brindle coats and may carry the pied gene (S,sp).  Piebald pups are not possible.

3.    Breeding a solid or brindle dog that does not carry the piebald gene to a piebald dog (S,S) to (sp,sp):  100% of the puppies will have solid or brindle coats, and 100% of these puppies will carry the pied gene.  In this scenerio it is not possible for pied pups to appear.

4.    Breeding two piebald dogs (sp,sp) to (sp,sp): 100% of these puppies will be piebald (spsp). It is not possible for solid color pups to appear in this scenario.

5.    Breeding two solid or brindle dogs that both carry the piebald gene (S,sp) to (S,sp):  The percentages are random, 25% of them may have solid or brindle coats and may not carry the pied gene (SS). 50% of the puppies may have solid or brindle coats and may carry the pied gene (Ssp) and 25% of them may have a piebald coat (spsp).  A  25% chance of piebald puppies.

6.    Breeding a solid or brindle dog that carries the piebald gene (S,sp) to a piebald dog (sp,sp):  The percentages are random, 50% of the puppies may have solid or brindle coats and may carry the piebald gene, and 50% of these pups may have a piebald coat expressed.

As for the origin of the pied color, studies indicate that it may not come from a specific breed of dog but with the domestication of them.  When we breed for temperament we may inadvertently breed for color (or absence of color). Tyrosine (amino acid) is the precursor for epinephrine, adrenalin (stress hormone) and melanin (pigment). If we choose to breed the most docile dogs in our pack – the lower level of stress they exhibit may coincide with the delayed color distribution and result in white, lack of pigment or piebald due to the level of tyrosine. So the coat color may not determine temperament, but the amino acid that regulates the level of stress and behavior may very well determine the distribution of color. The piebald coloring is noted in several domesticated animals, we believe that this is not a coincidence.

We never for a moment questioned the purity of Cappella’s lineage. Together with Si and Jen we decided it would be worthwhile and in the best interest of Cappella (and her littermates) to test her.  The more we know about our dogs, the better we can serve to secure their future.

 Wishing everyone a Happy and Healthy New Year!

Joe & Holly

 









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susanb

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Reply with quote  #492 
Thank you for sharing new pictures of the babies, both here in the states and your's. They are gorgeous. I love the picture of the male with the little pup. And the Christmas shot of 3 dogs looking upward---how cute. 
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Reply with quote  #493 
I bet the IG is the boss?
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Linda Greeson Rice
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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #494 
Quote:
When we breed for temperament we may inadvertently breed for color (or absence of color). Tyrosine (amino acid) is the precursor for epinephrine, adrenalin (stress hormone) and melanin (pigment).


This can have far reaching consequences, that go well beyond the boundaries of canines, if we are not careful in our scientific evaluations.

I would like to see more studies done in regards to this effect, before concluding that the appearance of white, or pied patterns, are due to calmer temperaments vis a vis the amino acid-melanin connection route.

The Russian study observed similar color traits in their experiments with foxes, but I don't know if other studies have confirmed the same findings, or if other biological factors were evaluated in verifying the levels of hormones, etc.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #495 

Hi All,

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Steve, brindle pied’s are lovely but the fawn and apricot pieds are really just as fetching especially when you see them in the flesh. Seeing them all together is even more of a treat.

Thank you for not doubting our pieds breed purity, we would never crossbreed any of our Mastiffs. Since the OEMC’s omission of the pied colour from the breed standard however they have been relentlessly accused of as being the results of crossbreeding. It’s wonderful that breeders now have the ability to put those flagrant accusations to rest.  

We’ll let Holly post all the information for how the breed purity test actually works, it does only go back so far and we can still only speculate on the actual origins of the colour. Based on historical evidence though we believe it has been in Mastiffs since origin and has held consistently true to them ever since. Pieds Mastiffs of today still look so similar to their early predecessors. We believe it is a part of the Alaunt legacy that is behind the modern breed.

There have been more studies done on the piebald coat colouring, all associate the colour with greatest tameness and least aggression.

 

H, our pieds are most definitely loved and considered as family members. We adore them. Like you we love our dogs first and foremost. We’re still getting round to an NTSC version of the film for you to trail for us. Sorry it’s taking so long.  We’ve both been suffering from editing burn out after finishing the Youtube video and Pal DVD version of the film. We’ll get round to trailing an NTSC version soon though and will get a copy out to you as soon as we can.

 

Janine, we’re starting to believe that  brindle pieds are not all that rare.  Apart from your beautiful Dozer and our Chimes, we also know of two others. They are both in America and currently under a year old. All of the pieds look so similar to one another, the pied colouring does seem to be very consistent in Mastiffs.

 

Erika, we didn’t keep any solid coloured puppies out of our litter so I don’t have many pictures of them to show you. I’ve just attached below a photo our pied’s solid fawn sister, Winding Rhymes.

Our pieds were only permitted to be placed on Limited Register and even their Limited Registration pedigrees are refutable as they would not state their actual colours. Chimes is apparently a brindle, Songs a fawn and A Cappella an apricot. Their history has effectively been ended before it’s really even began and we will continue to know very little about pieds which is why we take the time to share as much information as we can about them.

 

Linda, you have always stated that you love pieds and that is a good start. We believe there is hope for them as long as we continue to hold them dear. We don’t believe we know enough about them yet to be sure we should be eradicating them all together from the gene-pool.

 

Susan thank you for all your kind words.

 

Warmest regards,

Si & Jen

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Reply with quote  #496 
It would be of further interest, if one could review the pedigrees of the other pieds you've mention and see if there are any common denominators.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #497 
Hi Steve,

We have reviewed one of the brindle pied's pedigree and are hoping to review the other one soon. We did spot some common demoninators in the one we looked at.  White has been bred away from in the breed so there are probably only a few lines that do still carry it and of course not all dogs in those lines will be carriers.
We know there are other breeders who have had pieds or who have dogs that have sired litters that have included them. If they would be willing to send us a copy of their pedigrees we would really appareciate it. We hope to compile as much information about them as we can.

We're off to kick off the new year!
All the best,

Si & Jen

h

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Reply with quote  #498 
Quote:
H, our pieds are most definitely loved and considered as family members. We adore them. Like you we love our dogs first and foremost. We’re still getting round to an NTSC version of the film for you to trail for us. Sorry it’s taking so long. We’ve both been suffering from editing burn out after finishing the Youtube video and Pal DVD version of the film. We’ll get round to trailing an NTSC version soon though and will get a copy out to you as soon as we can.


I can't wait. 

Thank You,

H

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Reply with quote  #499 
Well Linda we are not so sure about little Spike's lineage but he is definitely the boss; he has earned it in his 10 years. Joe saw me struggling to get the girls together in a pic so he grabbed their attention for a minute and of course Spike insists on being first in line for everything, thanks for your compliments Susan.
I agree with you Steve, there is much more to learn and many more studies to peruse. Maybe someday we will have the opportunity to participate in a study of our own.

For anyone who might be interested in seeing the test reports for Cappella I've attached the summaries in a pdf, much easier than trying to explain it.


 
Attached Files
pdf 122812_moody_cappella.pdf (1.11 MB, 17 views)


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #500 
http://ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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