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MuddyFlews

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Reply with quote  #501 
Quote:
Despite O’Steen’s 
advice, Greeson still has a favorite mutation. “Cinnamon Pearls are the sweetest 
birds! Pearls are usually pretty easy to get along with and Cinnamons are friendly, 
too – So, when you have both mutations in the same bird, they’re going to be sweet
and affectionate.” If this seems to be a generalization without merit – think again, 
folks. Greeson has had a passion for genetics for as long as she can remember and 
when she makes a statement like this, she has the documentation to back it up. “I 
keep great records … Not just the lineage of my birds, but their visual attributes and 
personalities, too. It’s only through these breeding notes that I can notice patterns 
that may ultimately change the way I breed my birds.”


-Another account of the possible connection between color and temperament

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LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #502 
I totally saw that in my cockatiels.. there were definately softer temperaments in the pearls and cinnamons. The lutinos were very high strung - and the normals were very aggressive.. without fail.
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Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #503 


A Boerboel Pied

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #504 
Si, Jen and Holly,

Thank you so much for posting updated pictures of your beautiful pups!  I continue to be positively fascinated by them!  I see a couple of people prefer the brindle/pied, but I honestly can't pick a favorite.  They are all just lovely.  The pictures you posted, Jen and Si, show your pups to be nice conformation examples as well...save the color, of course.  I am officially a fan of these babies!  Who knows, maybe someday pieds will be accepted in the standard!

Best of luck with them and Happy New Year!!

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Jennifer Patterson


"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI. One died for your soul, the other died for your freedom."
MuddyFlews

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Reply with quote  #505 
Thank you Jennifer for sharing in our appreciation of these awesome pups. We couldn't be happier that Jen and Si shared their babies with us, they are just beautiful. Happy and Healthy New Year to you!

Linda and Steve, thought you might be interested in seeing the Campbell Test. It takes a look at puppy's character based on several factors - including coat color:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2327247/



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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #506 

These were not the pieds I had posted earlier 3 posts back. The earlier was an AOL picture, which may not appear, or appear as a red X.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #507 

Wow! Those pied Boerboels are beautiful!

It’s so interesting that  colouring  is associated with certain traits even in birds. It does appear that colour is not  just of cosmetic value.

 

Chimes would be delighted if he knew he had a fan out there...he’s always trying to catch an eye..lol.

Both he and Songs still have a long way to go and we can’t wait to see what they’re going to look like as adults. Right now though we’re just trying to make sure they don’t grow too quickly.

 

We do hope the kennel club will start registering their colours truthfully and we will always wish for them to be recognized and accepted into the Mastiff Breed Standard.  We remain optimistic that there is still room for them, in our view they fit the bill and belong in the Mastiff’s realm.   

 

We’ll post more photos as they grow....should be quite soon .... lol

slinger2

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Reply with quote  #508 
HI ,I think the pieds are awsome <LOL> Id love to have one ,not to breed ,but for the looks of them .

Thats just me :>

Marge
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #509 


Hi All

Just want to introduce to to our newest Pieds.
Opus & Theodore, born on the 18th January 2013

Opus is the Brindle Apricot Pied
Theodore is the Fawn Pied

We have also decided to get with the times and finally get onto Facebook

If interested you can find Gammonwood Mastiffs here
http://www.facebook.com/Si.Willshire

We also have a dedicated Facebook Page for the Gammonwood Pieds
http://www.facebook.com/Si.Willshire#!/pages/Gammonwood-Pied-Mastiffs/428854433861938

Much love as always
Si & Jen
Gammonwood

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Magnum_Opus_feb_23_2013_023.jpg, Views: 39, Size: 163.83 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: Magnum_Opus_feb_23_2013_040.jpg, Views: 49, Size: 140.48 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: Fawn_Pied_Feb_23_2013_058.jpg, Views: 41, Size: 148.26 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: Fawn_Pied_Feb_23_2013_055.jpg, Views: 45, Size: 187.14 KB 

Janine

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Reply with quote  #510 
You are full of surprises, I had no idea you had some more lol. 
Not on facebook and never going there, I will stick to email and the good old phone.
Lovely pups too by the way.  Another brindle pied.  Jealous.
Janine.
LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #511 
What bautiful ccutie.pieds!
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Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
h

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Reply with quote  #512 
Nice pups; Mastiffs through and through. 

What was the ratio in the litter?

H

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #513 
Nice looking bunch!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #514 

A litter of only 3 H!
2 Pieds and 1 solid Apricot. All Male.
We were kind of hoping for a solid coloured female this time though.
Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of humour...LOL


Ya Janine,
We're still feeling our way around Facebook. It's all so new and dynamic.
A bit overwhelming. So it's steady as she goes.

Opus is such a card. So proud and stoic already. His brindle colouring has the Apricot underneath, just like Grace.
His coat is so sleek and shiny. We are so torn and not sure if we can part with any of them....
We are so hopeless :-)

Si & Jen

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #515 
As reference, it may be important to note, that Bewick's pied image was not done from life, in fact, it was a reproduction & reinterpretation of Buffon's pied.

Therefore, it did not represent two independent pied specimens as depicted in both of their studies, as it's only one dog.

(ref. D.B. Oliff)

On another item of interest, pertaining to the Bewick pied, it's interesting to note, that the term Old English Mastiff was used at the bottom of his image dated 1816.

This may represent his opinion of the pied (purely my speculation), as being an older form of Mastiff, since Buffon's image is 50 years earlier than Bewick's. No doubt many of the Mastiffs of that time may have had some white as a blaze on chest, feet, face, etc., but the majority would have been fawns. therefore, pieds would have been rare and could have been interpreted as an Old English variant.

Many people feel the Old English prefix is a derivative of the club name, but the club formed in the latter part of the 19th century and therefore, Bewick's 1816 mention of the Old English, predates the club.


[bewick]Bewick

[214915810]Buffon
[bull-dog]Buffon

[475839_Mastiff]Perhaps this Buffon pied was a different pied than the one above.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #516 

 

Hi Steve,
Good to be back with you on the Gilpins!
Bewick was a great naturalist in his own right and left us many excellent representations of canine form. "A General History of Quadrupeds" alone contains hundreds of his engravings.
Wynn puts forth that almost all Bewick’s various Mastiff depictions had white on their faces and body. It’s possible Bewick copied some of Buffon’s images but we can’t be certain. A
drian Searle writes of Bewick " (he) was as inventive as he was observant, as funny and bleak as he was exacting and faithful to the things he saw around him."
Whatever the case may be,  if it had been our pied Chimes whose image they were trying to capture, it would have been an enormous effort...he just will not pose and hates being photographed...LOL

Not sure Bewick referencing Mastiffs as ‘Old English Mastiffs’ had anything to do with colour. We don’t believe that much importance was ever given to colour back then. Perhaps national pride and the need to differentiate was simply all this was.  Buffon was a leading natural historian of his day and he was French.  Bewick was English and 46 years his junior.  All we know for sure is that both men were prominent in their fields, in their days, and both considered the piebald Mastiff authentic.  

Natural variations in coat colour are genetic traits and piebalds do occur from time to time in purebred Mastiff breedings. We don’t know yet what other traits the piebald gene may be linked with, we just know for certain that what genetic diversity we have left within our closed stud book is all the genetic diversity we will ever have. This is worth keeping in mind.
Warmest regards,
Jen

 

 

 

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #517 

[bewick]Bewick

[214915810]Buffon


Hi Jen,

I almost wound up with a Gilpin, the one from the Duke of Hamilton!

Thank God Sotheby's client refused by bid!
...LOL

The piece was enormous!


Oliff stated that the pictures are of the same pied, only reversed. The markings are too similar for them to have been separate individuals. Drawn by different hands, gives rise for some differentiation to the eye, but in all likelihood the same dog.

A closed stud book can apply for all purebred breeds, as fresh blood is always wanting. Yet, the Mastiff has actually suffered from it's open book of sorts, due to various crosses along it's continuum. Variability, is the definitive portrayal of diversity, not homology, and bad breeding practices accounts for poor specimens, rather than a lack of genetic diversity.

I still find it odd, that Old English Mastiff was used at that early date, but it can certainly be a source for further speculation.

Would love to see some updated pictures of your Gilpin tribe!

All the best...........

S

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #518 
I'm getting a little lost in the rhetoric here.  I don't think anyone can deny that these are lovely dogs and adorable puppies but some of the posts seem to be advocating the inclusion of piebald as an approved color in the Mastiff standard.  Or am I misreading?

If historical reference is an acceptable justification for inclusion of any characteristic, who gets to choose the point on the timeline after which inclusion is no longer allowed?  My own belief is that a standard, once agreed upon and established, trumps historical reference since the intent of a standard is to "fix" desired type.  Go back far enough in any purebred dog and you can find historical reference for any characteristic you wish to include as all are descended from the same ancestors.

I do find the discussion fascinating and the dogs lovely.  Just curious where it's going as it seems to be decidedly leaning to one side.  [smile]   

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Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #519 

Karen I’m sure Steve isn’t but we certainly are advocating for the inclusion of the piebald coat colouring into the Mastiff breed standard so that it can utilize and valued within the breed. We believe standards are not static documents, they must always take into consideration the needs of society and new research which can serve to benefit the breed.

Steve I’m not very good at uploading photos but will get Simon to upload some new ones when he gets home from work. So sorry to hear your bid was refused! It would be amazing to own the Gilpin original of the Duke of Hamilton’s Mastiff and Greyhounds. I want that piece more than any other...LOL

A closed stud book does apply to all purebred dogs and many purebred dogs especially those from very small genetic bases are in peril according to leading canine geneticists and biologists. Breeders are being advised to know the Inbreeding Coefficients (IC or COI) of the dogs they choose to breed and to try to keep these values as low as possible.  I think if we knew our true COI’s they would be quite frightening.
The unrecorded past crosses were probably a much needed lifeline for the Mastiff but as they were unrecorded we will never know our true COI values.  We can still however get a very good picture of where we are at in this regard.
With regards to the modern Mastiff we need to stop squabbling over such trivial things as coat colours and hold onto every bit of genetic diversity we have left in our gene-pool.

The Institute of Canine Biology is offering online courses in Population Genetics to help breeders understand how their scientific research impacts on them. They also offer 4 week COI bootcamps

 http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/

Why You Need Population Genetics:
1) All the useful genetic variation your breed will ever have was in the dogs that founded the breed. This genetic diversity is finite.

2) Each generation, alleles can be lost by chance (this is called "genetic drift") and also through artificial selection by breeders, who select for dogs with the traits they like and remove other dogs from the breeding population.

3) Because the stud book is closed, genes that are lost cannot be replaced.

4) So, from the moment a breed is founded and the stud book is closed, loss of genetic diversity over time is inevitable and relentless.

5) You cannot remove just a single gene from a population. You must remove an entire dog and all the genes it has.

6) You cannot select for or against a single gene, because genes tend to move in groups with other genes (this is called "linkage"). If you select for (or against) one, you select for (or against) them all.

7) Breeding for homozygosity of some traits breeds for homozygosity of all traits. Homozygosity is the kiss of death to the immune system. And by the way, as genetic variability decreases, so does the ability of the breeder to improve a breed through selection, because selection requires variability.

8) The consequences of inbreeding (in all animals) are insidious but obvious if you look - decreased fertility, difficulty whelping, smaller litters, higher puppy mortality, puppies that don't thrive, shorter lifespan, etc. Genetically healthy dogs should get pregnant if mated. They should have large litters of robust puppies, with low pup mortality. Animals that cannot produce viable offspring are removed by natural selection.

9) Mutations of dominant genes are removed from the population if they reduce fitness. Mutations of recessive alleles have no effect unless they are homozygous. So rare alleles are not removed, they are inherited from one generation to the next, and every animal has them.  Lots of 'em.

10) If you create a bunch of puppies from your favorite sire, you are making dozens of copies of all of the bad alleles in that dog (which were never a problem before because they were recessive; see 9) and spewing them out into the population.  Now, a (previously) rare mutation will become common, its frequency in the population increases, and the chances go up that some puppy will be produced that is homozygous (has two copies of that bad allele) - and homozygous recessive alleles are no longer silent.

11) So, genetic disorders caused by recessive alleles don't "suddenly appear" in a breed. The defective gene was probably there all along. Make a zillion copies, and suddenly you have a disease.

12) Using DNA testing to try to remove disease genes from the breed will not make dogs healthier (see 2, 5, and 6).  

13) The breed will continue to lose genes every generation (by chance or selection) until the gene pool no longer has the genes necessary to build a healthy dog.

14) At this point, the breed might look wonderful (because of selection for type), but it will suffer from the ill effects of genetic impoverishment - inbreeding depression, diseases caused by recessive alleles, increased risk for cancer, etc.

16) The health of individual dogs cannot be improved without improving the genetic health of the breed.  The only way to improve the genetic health of a breed is to manage the health of the breed's gene pool.

17) Population genetics provides tools for the genetic management of breeds or other groups of animals.  Breeders CAN improve the health of the dogs they breed if they understand and use them.

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #520 
We don't know if there is anything beyond coloration, that pieds might introduce. Therefore, it's not a given, that additional genetic diversification can be obtained.

Contrary to popular opinion, if there is a test for pieds, I'm not opposed to pieds being introduced into the standard, provided they are kept under separate classification and only bred to their own. I say this only to prevent the possible infusion of other possible harmful genetics into the total gene pool. That is something the test for pieds cannot detect. It's fair to assume, that pied recessives have already entered the general gene pool, but it might still be prudent to institute a cool down period at first, if the pied movement gets a footing for acceptance into the standard.
But one can certainly make the case for the benign effect of pieds, since they have already infiltrated the breed. Pieds that are found in fawn litters, are still in some of the genetics that those fawns pass down when bred. If there were to be major benefits, or drawbacks, due to unknown attributes within pied genetics, their expression would have been known to us by now.

Pieds are historically relevant to the breed, but were not very desirable in certain periods, even though accepted. White markings on solid colorations, if limited, were better tolerated, and some even felt the best specimens showed a blaze of white on chest, or face (i.e. Wynn).

No doubt, the Duke of Hamilton's pied would not have been portrayed with such grand esteem by Gilpin, had the color been a shame based derivative.

The modern standard is a derivative of the select few who had good reasons for limiting colors to fawn, brindle and apricot.

Pieds would not make for good night watchmen and breeding would pose unpredictability in get coloration.

Peer pressure and common demands for solid colorations, may have impacted the decline of the pied as well, not to mention the advent of Alpine stock, which certainly would have confused, or made suspect, purity of pedigrees to Victorian sensibilities.

Presently, a fresh approach can be discussed towards pieds and perhaps in time, a more liberal approach may precipitate more general acceptance to this historical marker belonging to the Mastiff.

No doubt Karen is not a fan of historical markers, as it would topple her house of cards regarding the American Mastiff moniker debate!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #521 
Watch for whom you speak.  I'm getting a tad touchy of late with people who presume to know what it is my mind. 

I'm merely asking what differentiates a legitimate "marker" from an illegitimate one and who makes that determination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
... No doubt Karen is not a fan of historical markers, as it would topple her house of cards regarding the American Mastiff moniker debate!

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Reply with quote  #522 

Karen please don’t take anything I say personally, it is not intended that way. We always just stand up for our dogs and share information that might be helpful to breeders. We get accused of all kinds of things...LOL

Steve, I think testing needs only be used when one is trying to breed for particular colours. We have noticed in our own breedings that pied gene carriers can produce some excellent solid standard colour mastiffs with no white whatsoever. Breeding two pied gene carriers together will only give you a 25% probability of having pieds. You’ll always have more fawns, brindles and apricots but even if we didn’t does it matter? Perhaps some do still consider pieds undesirable but not all of us. We know in the past they had no understanding of genetics or way of explaining their rare occurrences but we understand these things nowadays. Why should they be kept in a separate class from their parents and siblings?  

Can anyone tell us the ‘good reasons’ there were for omitting pieds? Because we really haven’t been able to find any apart from the desire to set the breed apart from the Saint (which makes the colouring not less valid a Mastiff colour)

As for the importance of this particular genetic trait. See the letter written to the Canadian Poodle Clubs below regarding the Parti-Colour poodle. The scientific community obviously  feel that colour is very important.

 

22 September 2013 


Mary Jane Weir  

President 

Poodle Club of Canada

An open letter to the Canadian Poodle clubs: 

We are dismayed to learn that there is organized resistance to the effort in Canada to remove the disqualification of particolor Standard Poodles and their progeny.  

The Standard Poodle has been the subject of extensive genetic research over the last few years.  The data produced by this work are chilling.  

The genetic diversity of the Standard Poodle has been reduced to the point where the immune system is seriously compromised. Without a competent immune system, dogs have no defense against the pathogens that we all encounter on a daily basis.  Further, loss of the ability of the immune system to distinguish between an external pathogen and its own tissue is being manifested as skyrocketing rates of autoimmune disorders such as Addison's disease and sebaceous adenitis.  These are horrible diseases for which there are no veterinary treatments adequate to restore an animal to normal health.  Genetic research can increase our understanding of the underlying pathology of inherited diseases in dogs, but there is nothing geneticists can do to "fix" this problem.  Many of the genes necessary for a functional immune system in Poodles have been lost from the breed's gene pool, and there is no modern technology that will restore it to proper function. 

At this point, genetic salvation of this breed is going to require a concerted effort by breeders to reduce additional loss of genetic diversity to an absolute minimum.  That breeders could even be seriously considering removing dogs from the gene pool of the breed because they have one copy too many of a recessive allele for a purely cosmetic trait is simply breathtaking.  It reveals a profound and fundamental failure to appreciate the very dire genetic situation this breed is in. 

There is no genetic technology that will restore the Standard Poodle breed to the good health that all dogs deserve.  This can only be accomplished by breeders, who must recognize that time is very quickly running out for this breed.  It is going to require a substantial realignment of priorities as well as an extraordinary level of cooperation among breeders around the world.  Geneticists can provide guidance in this process and there are many that are ready and willing to help.  But breeders need to know that it is possible to break something to the point where it cannot be fixed.  The responsibility to get this right is solely yours.

Carol Beuchat, PhDScientific DirectorInstitute of Canine Biology, USA&Department of Molecular and Cell BiologyUniversity of California Berkeley, USA 

Jonas Donner, PhDDirector of Research & DevelopmentMyDogDNA, Genoscoper Laboratories, Finland 

Iwona Głażewska, PhDAssistant ProfessorDepartment of Plant Taxonomy and Nature ConservationUniversity of Gdansk, Poland 

Claudia Melis, PhDResearch ScientistDepartment of BiologyNorwegian University of Science & Technology, Norway

Pieter Oliehoek PhD Conservation Biology & Canine Genetics Institute of Canine Biology, USA

CA SharpPresidentAustralian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute, Incwww.ashgi.org

 

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I'm merely asking what differentiates a legitimate "marker" from an illegitimate one and who makes that determination.


Determinants can be made through several methods.

Standards, groups/clubs, individuals, precedents, consensus and peer reviews.

All because someone likes a fluff, it doesn't mean it should be incorporated into a standard.

But, if a large percentage of a group presses for change, it can occur.

Illegitimate can become legitimate, it all depends on the forces at work.

Such changes do not make it correct, or appropriate, if one is truly looking to maintain the stability of type, based on long term precedents.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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KarenK

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Reply with quote  #524 
Not to worry.  You didn't say anything to offend.  I can't address whether there might be any "good reasons" for omitting pieds (assuming the written standard we've followed for how many years ? isn't a good enough one) as I don't know what deleterious genes might be linked to the piebald gene.  I would certainly want to investigate whether deafness or other health or conformational issues might be associated as it is in many other breeds.  I'm just sort of dumbfounded as to why there are such heated debates over fluffies, full masks, etc. and so little objection here.  

In the absence of some very convincing argument for their inclusion, piebald Mastiffs may warrant kennel club recognition on their own merits but my personal opinion is that, at most, they should be handled similarly to the 13" Beagle and the 15" Beagle or in the manner the Federation Cynologique Internationale handles the Landseer which is considered by other kennel clubs nothing more than a black and white Newf.

I'm just looking for the logic and reason behind such a bold shift in direction is all.

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Steve, I think testing needs only be used when one is trying to breed for particular colours. We have noticed in our own breedings that pied gene carriers can produce some excellent solid standard colour mastiffs with no white whatsoever. Breeding two pied gene carriers together will only give you a 25% probability of having pieds. You’ll always have more fawns, brindles and apricots but even if we didn’t does it matter?
I think it matters, if we are trying to limit coloration to specific results. It's why a planned pied breeding should be tested for in advance, or kept between pieds, or pied carriers. Why infuse the pied into the entire Mastiff population, as some purists may not want what has happened with the Deer Run flooding, which now represents over 95% of all Mastiffs.

Perhaps some do still consider pieds undesirable but not all of us. We know in the past they had no understanding of genetics or way of explaining their rare occurrences but we understand these things nowadays. Why should they be kept in a separate class from their parents and siblings?
Some believe that the pied is not a throwback and is the direct result of Saintly genetics. A separate class is not unusual for certain varieties. A test for pieds can also aid in limiting unwanted proliferation. Why not use controls if they are available? Not everyone will want the gene in their lines and right, or wrong, we must respect those who want controls.

Can anyone tell us the ‘good reasons’ there were for omitting pieds? Because we really haven’t been able to find any apart from the desire to set the breed apart from the Saint (which makes the colouring not less valid a Mastiff colour)

As for the importance of this particular genetic trait. See the letter written to the Canadian Poodle Clubs below regarding the Parti-Colour poodle. The scientific community obviously  feel that colour is very important.
Certain breeds may be wanting in genetic diversification, the Mastiff is not in that camp at present.
Color can affect type, just as a white Doberman would not be recognized as correct, even though few could make a valid argument (aside from the deaf factor) for exclusion into the Doberman standard. All because limited reasons for exclusion may be present, standardization and breed recognizability do count, even though arguments against holding the line may sound reasonable.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #526 
Ah, I wasn't aware that the standard is a fluid thing and subject to whims and swings of fancy.  Now I do.  Does this mean that previously discounted dogs from the past can be retroactively awarded recognition?  That we should have preserved their genes with the repro vet after all?  And doesn't it leave breeders with long term plans/goals in a limbo state wondering whether they should breed to the just discontinued standard, the current standard or the anticipated upcoming standard?

I'm sorry.  I'm just still digesting what seems to me to be a pretty radical shift from desiring a mask to extend to the eyes and cover the ears to spots and no mask.  How do you even begin to reconcile that?    

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
Quote:
I'm merely asking what differentiates a legitimate "marker" from an illegitimate one and who makes that determination.


Determinants can be made through several methods.

Standards, groups/clubs, individuals, precedents, consensus and peer reviews.

All because someone likes a fluff, it doesn't mean it should be incorporated into a standard.

But, if a large percentage of a group presses for change, it can occur.

Illegitimate can become legitimate, it all depends on the forces at work.

Such changes do not make it correct, or appropriate, if one is truly looking to maintain the stability of type, based on long term precedents.



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Illegitimate can become legitimate if it is the correct thing to do and changes have been made to the breed standard in the past.  Breed preservation must be high priority for any breed standard. If accepting the piebald coat colouring will benefit all Mastiffs then why separate them into their own cluster where they can be sure to die of their own homogeneity.  Our breed standard is good but we’re sure it will always be able to be improved upon. The Mastiff community in general is a fairly switched on group of people. If changes are necessary for good health and preservation of the breed then changes will most likely be considered.  Registry departments must respond to new developments in science as well as they can be held accountable for inaction. The piebald gene is on the verge of extinction and new science has enabled breeders to totally eradicate the colour from the Mastiff gene-pool.  How can anyone be sure this is will better serve the breed when we don’t know yet what other traits the gene may be linked with? Does anyone know of any pied Mastiff studies?  We’ve experienced no deafness in our own pieds, their ears are predominantly black. Our nearest and dearest the Bulldog seems to handle piebald ok as well.
If previous Mastiffs can bring back in some added diversity they should be used if possible.  I wouldn't recommend doing that until their Inbreeding Coefficients can be worked out though.

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Reply with quote  #528 
Ah, I wasn't aware that the standard is a fluid thing and subject to whims and swings of fancy.  Now I do.  Does this mean that previously discounted dogs from the past can be retroactively awarded recognition?  That we should have preserved their genes with the repro vet after all?  And doesn't it leave breeders with long term plans/goals in a limbo state wondering whether they should breed to the just discontinued standard, the current standard or the anticipated upcoming standard?
How are you arriving at these conclusions, based on what I've stated?
I'm sorry.  I'm just still digesting what seems to me to be a pretty radical shift from desiring a mask to extend to the eyes and cover the ears to spots and no mask.  How do you even begin to reconcile that?   
The standard of an ideal incorporates other colors, as there is not one ideal coloration. Early fanciers did have preferences in coloration, apricot brindles were not seen as an acceptable color, today it's a desirable coloration. Does this mean we've failed the breed, or is this accommodation adding to the reality of the modern Mastiff experience?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #529 
Quote:
If accepting the piebald coat colouring will benefit all Mastiffs then why separate them into their own cluster where they can be sure to die of their own homogeneity.


The pied carriers can increase, with the use of non pied Mastiffs to pieds. the only caveat, is that those tested carriers must now be classified in the pied camp. It can be an ever increasing gene pool, provided those positively tested get from such breedings, are added to the pied camp.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #530 

Chimes and Songs are 15 months old
Opus is 8 months old
Angus is growing well too at 12 years old


All are so vibrant, young and healthy!

 

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Reply with quote  #531 
Good looking youngsters!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #532 
Thanks Steve! Going back to your earlier post. If we recognize pieds as separate Mastiffs it defeats the purpose for incorporating them in the first place. The diversity they offer may be helpful to our standard coloured Mastiffs.
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Reply with quote  #533 
I don't see them as offering genetic diversity, other than in coloration.

If one can show qualities in pieds, that are missing in the general Mastiff gene pool, then there may be merit in the premise you make.

Otherwise, we may only be dealing with a rare color recessive of unknown origin.

I've heard these arguments before, by those who press for fluff inclusion.

There are Mastiffs in the general gene pool that have larger bone and some that have lesser bone.

Being a fluff, or a pied, with good bone, does not validate the premise, which states that pieds, or fluffs pass down great bone. I can show you fluffs that have ordinary bone, or thin bones, just like in the general population of standard Mastiff stock.

Good breeding produces qualities we admire in the Mastiff.

Anomalies linked to unknown origins in hair length, or coloration, has not provided evidence for greater genetic transmission of redeeming traits. What it has provided, is an unusual trait, that one can argue for, or against, based on traditional historical relativity.

If over time, the pied variety proves itself to be producing superior stock, then total inclusion might be reconsidered, but these changes are best done in increments, if at all.
Realistically speaking, it's slim to none, that pieds will be included in the standard. It's why limiting acceptance, may provide the foot in the door, so to speak.

Your pied boys, remind me of Janine's impressive pied boy!
No doubt they must bring up fond memories for Janine.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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We don’t know yet what the pied gene is linked with or what it works in conjunction with. The Veterinary Journal, in its Hedhammar 2011 International and Collaborative Strategies to Enhance Genetic Health in Purebred Dogs advises, “Any rules that prohibit interbreeding between varieties based merely on colour, type of coat, regional origin or how the dog is used should be avoided.”


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"... If accepting the piebald coat colouring will benefit all Mastiffs then why separate them into their own cluster where they can be sure to die of their own homogeneity. ..."

The same can be said of any purebred dog but... , being a person who wants to hear all sides before coming to any conclusion, I have two suggestions.

1.  If the addition of pieds to approved Mastiff colors is entertained at all, they be classified, at most, as a separate variety as in smooth, wire and LH dachshunds.  Even that, I believe, will meet with heavy resistance... but we'll see.

2.  That a new thread be started with the open question, "Should piebald (spotted) be added as an approved color in the Mastiff standard?"  I think this thread has lost what little audience may exist and I'd like to see what members think prior to getting lost in heavy rhetoric.  I would also request that there be allowed time for off-the-cuff responses before weighing in by parties actively engaged in this thread.  In other words, the active participants in the existing thread will agree to sit back biting their tongue with no attempt to sway the audience for a while.  We could even agree that those of us already actively involved, when we do pipe in, limit our arguments to say no more than five sentences in an effort not to lose our audience.  That happens a lot on this forum but I've never considered drowning out the competition a fair tactic as it only bores the audience or intimidates the more tentative onlookers who might like to might like to have their own opinions heard.

What do you say?  Shall we toss it out there?  If presidential candidate debates can be handled this way, we should certainly be able to do it.  Who knows?  I may be surprised at the outcome.

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KarenK

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I might further suggest that the first post on the new thread ask that responses begin with YES, NO or MAYBE, followed by no more than 10 lines of discussion as to their reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenK
 That a new thread be started with the open question, "Should piebald (spotted) be added as an approved color in the Mastiff standard?"  I think this thread has lost what little audience may exist and I'd like to see what members think prior to getting lost in heavy rhetoric.  I would also request that there be allowed time for off-the-cuff responses before weighing in by parties actively engaged in this thread.  In other words, the active participants in the existing thread will agree to sit back biting their tongue with no attempt to sway the audience for a while.  We could even agree that those of us already actively involved, when we do pipe in, limit our arguments to say no more than five sentences in an effort not to lose our audience.  That happens a lot on this forum but I've never considered drowning out the competition a fair tactic as it only bores the audience or intimidates the more tentative onlookers who might like to might like to have their own opinions heard.

What do you say?  Shall we toss it out there?  If presidential candidate debates can be handled this way, we should certainly be able to do it.  Who knows?  I may be surprised at the outcome.

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Reply with quote  #537 
Done.  If it flops, it flops, either out of lack of concern and belief that it is a non-issue or because the topic has burned itself out.  Sometimes too much noise simply results in tuning out.
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Reply with quote  #538 
Quote:
The Veterinary Journal, in its Hedhammar 2011 International and Collaborative Strategies to Enhance Genetic Health in Purebred Dogs advises, “Any rules that prohibit interbreeding between varieties based merely on colour, type of coat, regional origin or how the dog is used should be avoided.”


Veterinarians see the world through a medical perspective. Broad blanket resolves by vets would remove all giants from the breed list, as they have shorter lives.

Unless we wish to lose breed diversity & variety, it's best that we don't leave these decisions up to vets!

I also promise not to teach surgery at U-Penn.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #539 
Quote:
 Sometimes too much noise simply results in tuning out.


And sometimes limiting responses tunes people out!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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They're certainly not tuned out to the same question posted to Facebook where I asked that responses be limited to a single word if possible.  


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Reply with quote  #541 
No doubt much was gained by that exercise.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Are the votes of breeders who are on facebook but not WMF members any less valid?  They have all had access to the many pages of this thread, most have followed it and they are at least as informed on the topic as anyone here.

I did this for my own edification.  I only recently learned of the movement abroad and was sincerely curious to see what the general opinion is in the U.S..  If you and other forum members aren't interested in the results, I'm not going to force them down your throat but I do believe I've been respectful every step of the way and ask only the same in return. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
No doubt much was gained by that exercise.

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Reply with quote  #543 
I, for one, am quite interested in seeing the outcomes.
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Reply with quote  #544 
How can a poll determine correctness, or merit, if those voting in the poll are basing their decisions on a yes, no, or maybe, predesignate?

All you can achieve, at best, is a numerical polarity, which is devoid of any substance regarding fully understanding the issue.

Why not take a poll on Ben & Jerry's cherry vanilla, yes, no, or maybe?

No doubt, chocolate lovers know best!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #545 

Can't help but respond to this proposition without a touch of rhetoric!

It seems quite a novel approach to suggest a "more controllable" forum for the subject matter and place boundaries and limitations on the discussion itself in an effort to narrow the parameters, when this is a subject that is very broad in scope and not just down to colour preference.

 

The analogy of a Presidential debate does not work for me. Those debates that I've seen tend to gloss over the “meat” and concentrate on the "sauce".  I fear it will be the same with this suggestion. I get much more out of listening to the growth of policies over months and years. I tend to see the trends developing in a more holistic way. Limiting a decision to only that knowledge gleaned from a set forum that is controlled in such away will only ever be superficial to me. In a long term view of politics, (as in this issue), you are also more acutely aware of the untruths, the influence of lobbyists and things unsaid. You can more clearly see the manoeuvring and real intentions tend to become more apparent over time. Sorry, but the Political comparison fills me dread. Especially given the propensity for a shutdown of the system when differing views cannot agree (lol... couldn't resist)

 

I think a blanket statement such as "this thread has lost what little audience may exist and I'd like to see what members think prior to getting lost in heavy rhetoric" is quite a leap. Are you sure about this? With almost 25, 000 views and half a thousand replies, it has sat dormant for months and when rekindled there is an effort to step on it in a day. Since the last contributions to this thread the pied arena has seen a lot of developments. There is more information that can be shared and maybe others with or without a passion for rhetoric can share what they've learned and how they've grown.

And since when is rhetoric something to shy away from? The facts are out there for all who choose to dig and find them. The "rhetoric" is simply no more than conversation, with all sides trying to put forth their points of view based on their research and experience. A one word answer or restricted length can be more detrimental due to the fact that points get oversimplified, lost in tangents, glossed over and condensed to the point where taking them out of context is commonplace. All views should be respected without such limitations. Most assuredly, the previous "rhetoric" has spurred us to lift our focus and determination considerably.

 

Quote:
Done.  If it flops, it flops, either out of lack of concern and belief that it is a non-issue or because the topic has burned itself out.
 

Surely there are more possible outcomes than lack of concern/belief OR burn out if this new thread fails. This subject has never been as cut and dried as Republican v Democrat, (Liberal v Labour in OZ), one policy versus another, black and white.

It is Pied through and through!
Variations of all colours with a lot of white. 


Cheers to all

Si

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Reply with quote  #546 
My response is to quote you:

Determinants can be made through several methods.

Standards, groups/clubs, individuals, precedents, consensus and peer reviews.

All because someone likes a fluff, it doesn't mean it should be incorporated into a standard.

But, if a large percentage of a group presses for change, it can occur.

Illegitimate can become legitimate, it all depends on the forces at work.

Such changes do not make it correct, or appropriate, if one is truly looking to maintain the stability of type, based on long term precedents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
How can a poll determine correctness, or merit, if those voting in the poll are basing their decisions on a yes, no, or maybe, predesignate?

All you can achieve, at best, is a numerical polarity, which is devoid of any substance regarding fully understanding the issue.

Why not take a poll on Ben & Jerry's cherry vanilla, yes, no, or maybe?

No doubt, chocolate lovers know best!


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Karen K.
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Southern States Mastiff Rescue: http://www.SouthernStatesMastiffRescue.org
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #547 
In my example, a consensus would not mean yes or no answers to an issue such as this.

Various determinants are not all equally weighted.

Surely a round table discourse would be needed to explore the issue in a rational way.

The poll only serves to provide a knee-jerk number, representing a general group's limited response, at a fixed point in time.

It's like determining who the President will be, on the day a person announces that they are running. As we know, many people who appear to be front runners, lose the election!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #548 
I respect your perspective and am merely pointing out that there are other pools to draw from than this forum.  The number of "views" on this thread could just as easily show how many times each poster checked to see responses to his/her own post.  I think they are less a reflection of the number of people interested in the topic than the number of people responding to my casual and admittedly unscientific poll.

I, myself, am open to the idea, as I am to most, but have yet to see an argument that leads me to agree to the inclusion of pieds as an approved color in Mastiffs.  I was told early on in the dog game that "form follows function" and, if there's any merit to that oft repeated phrase and Mastiffs were indeed bred to guard, then a white or white-spotted dog's ability to "disappear" into their surroundings would be severely compromised and, thus, it would be less capable of performing its function.  But, maybe, "form follows function" is no longer applicable.  Lord knows I'm wrong on many things and I'm sure I'll be corrected on the spot if I am in this case. 

I have no problem with rhetoric until it results in the loss of the audience that should be making the final determination on an important issue.  After that point, it seems to be merely rhetoric for rhetoric's sake.  My aim in taking my own poll was to allow everyone with an interest in breeding Mastiffs to express their opinion simply without having to engage in a long cumbersome and wordy debate.  The information is right here and they have seen it.  Membership isn't required to see this forum.  This is absolutely the place for long explanations of important issues but that doesn't mean they can't vote in an easier venue once they've reviewed and considered it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gammonwood

Can't help but respond to this proposition without a touch of rhetoric!

It seems quite a novel approach to suggest a "more controllable" forum for the subject matter and place boundaries and limitations on the discussion itself in an effort to narrow the parameters, when this is a subject that is very broad in scope and not just down to colour preference.

 

The analogy of a Presidential debate does not work for me. Those debates that I've seen tend to gloss over the “meat” and concentrate on the "sauce".  I fear it will be the same with this suggestion. I get much more out of listening to the growth of policies over months and years. I tend to see the trends developing in a more holistic way. Limiting a decision to only that knowledge gleaned from a set forum that is controlled in such away will only ever be superficial to me. In a long term view of politics, (as in this issue), you are also more acutely aware of the untruths, the influence of lobbyists and things unsaid. You can more clearly see the manoeuvring and real intentions tend to become more apparent over time. Sorry, but the Political comparison fills me dread. Especially given the propensity for a shutdown of the system when differing views cannot agree (lol... couldn't resist)

 

I think a blanket statement such as "this thread has lost what little audience may exist and I'd like to see what members think prior to getting lost in heavy rhetoric" is quite a leap. Are you sure about this? With almost 25, 000 views and half a thousand replies, it has sat dormant for months and when rekindled there is an effort to step on it in a day. Since the last contributions to this thread the pied arena has seen a lot of developments. There is more information that can be shared and maybe others with or without a passion for rhetoric can share what they've learned and how they've grown.

And since when is rhetoric something to shy away from? The facts are out there for all who choose to dig and find them. The "rhetoric" is simply no more than conversation, with all sides trying to put forth their points of view based on their research and experience. A one word answer or restricted length can be more detrimental due to the fact that points get oversimplified, lost in tangents, glossed over and condensed to the point where taking them out of context is commonplace. All views should be respected without such limitations. Most assuredly, the previous "rhetoric" has spurred us to lift our focus and determination considerably.

 

Quote:
Done.  If it flops, it flops, either out of lack of concern and belief that it is a non-issue or because the topic has burned itself out.
 

Surely there are more possible outcomes than lack of concern/belief OR burn out if this new thread fails. This subject has never been as cut and dried as Republican v Democrat, (Liberal v Labour in OZ), one policy versus another, black and white.

It is Pied through and through!
Variations of all colours with a lot of white. 


Cheers to all

Si


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Reply with quote  #549 
Breeders who have no pieds in their lines will vote no in most instances, because they don't want to compete for pieds, or may feel threatened if the pied becomes popular.
Quote:

  I was told early on in the dog game that "form follows function" and, if there's any merit to that oft repeated phrase and Mastiffs were indeed bred to guard, then a white or white-spotted dog's ability to "disappear" into their surroundings would be severely compromised and, thus, it would be less capable of performing its function.  But, maybe, "form follows function" is no longer applicable.


Not all guards were meant to be invisible.

The best deterrent to a crime is a visible presence of protection.

A pied would certainly stand out better than a brindle, or fawn, especially at dusk.

Therefore, one could argue, that function follows form if pieds could be utilized in this capacity.

Certainly the Duke of Hamilton had no issue with his pied's function!

[Chimes_Hamilton_Pied]

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #550 

Karen,  Form still follows function or at least it should. The Mastiff was not just bred to guard they were also bred to hunt, hunting decided their form and honed their unique ability to seize and hold which makes them so valuable to us as gentle guardians. There have been some renowned pied hunting Mastiffs.  Piebald colouration will not reduce our Mastiffs ability to hunt but overfeeding will.

“Two thousand years ago,  Xenophon wrote in his famous Cynegeticus:  ‘for much over-feeding of puppies distorts their legs, and produces diseases in their bodies; and their interior parts are thus rendered unsound.’ We ignore ancient wisdoms at our peril. The breeds which our ancestors handed down to us were developed in pursuit of function; unsound dogs couldn’t function and so especially in the world of sporting dogs, we were lucky enough to have sound dogs bequeathed to us. We may not want our breeds to carry out their original function but we should value their capability to do so, this alone can produce sound dogs.”

Excerpt from Colonel David Hancock’s PUTTING DOGS BEFORE BREEDS
http://davidhancockondogs.com/archives/archive_671_728/726.html

 

Steve, we are at the point where we will have to get over our breed disassociation feelings. Our breed is genetically broke. Biology is really clear about one thing.  You cannot create a healthy population of animals from a handful of founders forced to breed with themselves generation after generation. All of the problems our poor dogs are having now are the expected consequences of this arrangement.

The modern Mastiff most certainly comes from a very small genetic base and the genetic diversity that was present in the breed has been reduced even further by common breeding practices. Many Mastiffs often died young and can be plagued with debilitating conditions. Skeletal diseases, bloat, cruciate ruptures’, cancers, infertility, inability to breed naturally or whelp naturally, small litters, birth defects, growth abnormalities, etc. etc.  are all things that too often present themselves in the breed.

A completed Mastiff Pedigree Database is being established to help today’s Mastiff breeders make sense of what is happening and enable them to make the best possible choices for perpetuating the breed. Many breeds are looking at outcrossing programs in their near future, which need not be as scarey as it sounds - it just takes planning and many very smart heads that come together to do things with a plan.

Variations in coat colours are genetic traits and irrefutably part of a breed’s genetic diversity. MB Wynn knew the true colours of the Mastiff to be comprised of five colours not just three; Fawns, brindles, blacks, reds (apricots) and pieds, (including the variation of blue brindle).  We can find no good reasons for doubting his words.  Brindles are thought to just be diluted variations of black Mastiffs and piebald Mastiffs to be white infused brindles, fawns and apricots. We're not certain yet if blue-brindle piebald exists in the gene pool but we will always be looking forward to finding this out.

If Mastiff breeders could be free to embrace the whole range of natural colour variations within their breed they might just be able to bring in some added diversity to their lines without great cost and without compromising character, temperament, form or function in any way.  
Cheers,
Jen

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