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Janine

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Reply with quote  #551 
"Your pied boys, remind me of Janine's impressive pied boy!
No doubt they must bring up fond memories for Janine."

I only said this to Jen and Si a little while ago, Chimes reminds me so much of Dozer, he also seems to have the same nature.

Janine.
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #552 

Here are my thoughts:

First, let me say, I have followed this thread for some time, and have found it engaging, thought-provoking, and educational. 

KarenK has moved her poll question to a different thread. Hence it should not disrupt the discussion on this one. I DO think polling/canvassing of a membership can be valuable

Perhaps I've been conditioned by my work, but as a consultant, I am usually given a 'what the problems are' precise by the executives or managers (depending on the scope of the project) -- which of course is coloured by 'their view from the mountain'. My immediate job is to find out what the problems really are -- at all levels -- and to fix them. In order to begin a diagnostic, I often do surveys or 'focus workshops' to take a pulse reading. This is NOT the end in itself, only a beginning which will suggest the areas important for enquiry and the 'size of the problem'. If 90% of employees do not trust management, then I need to explore in-depth why that perception exists, and what would need to happen for employees to be more trusting of execs/managers.

In this case, I am taken with Gammonwood’s statement:

Quote:
The piebald gene is on the verge of extinction and new science has enabled breeders to totally eradicate the colour from the Mastiff gene-pool.

Hence, if one is an advocate for Pieds, it appears that there is some urgency in  moving forward acceptance of Pieds into the breed standard at more than glacial pace. In my mind, and I’m sure you will correct me if I’m wrong, acceptance into the breed standard will require the support – if not consensus – of the MCOA, including its membership. It can be valuable to ‘take the pulse’ of where that support – or lack thereof -- stands at a particular point in time, as it will provide  insights (particularly if it is accompanied by some qualitative feedback) as to how high the hurdle is, what issues need to be explored in depth. These, in turn can be used as a foundation for an action plan.


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Karen
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #553 
Jen, we disagree on the limited genetic diversity in the breed. Certainly every purebred breed has some form of genetic bottle-necking, yet many of those breeds are relatively healthy.

The modern Mastiff displays genetic diversity, even more so, than most other breeds.
We are well passed the war years and Tobin et al, have insured the influx of fresh genetics.
Today, we have 5% DR free stock & 95% of DR related stock, including all of the crosses known & unknown that reduces genetic limitations.
Poor breeding and over weight specimens, account for most of the problems in the breed.

Piebald is a color variation and it's influence is already in the Mastiff gene pool, even if it's expression in phenotype is limited.
Any gains, or drawbacks, vis a vis the pied, is already factored into the general Mastiff gene pool.

Therefore, the issue is not one of genetic diversity, or acceptance, by the pieds inclusion, it's a matter of accepting the phenotype expression! The genotype has already expressed, if there were things other than coloration operating in the genetic transmission.

I have no issue with the pied becoming another color, since it is already a valid Mastiff color, albeit non standard.
I still believe it should be introduced as a separate variety, so as not to scare the children!...LOL

Karen,

Depending on the issue, we don't need focus groups to tell us if it's raining.
Resistance to the pied exists, that's a reality.
Overcoming resistance, even with solid facts in your camp, can be insurmountable... hint-hint!
At best, we have an awareness brewing and only time will tell if anything grows from these seeds.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #554 
Quote:
Depending on the issue, we don't need focus groups to tell us if it's raining.


I agree that focus groups    are not very useful for the purpose of diagnostics. I do not do focus groups, and I did not make reference to a 'focus group'. Focus groups and focus workshops are entirely different in terms of group process and outcomes. If you are interested in knowing what a 'focus workshop' is than perhaps you could ask rather than use sarcasm. Your analogy is inapt. Rain is tangible, and immediately perceivable -- by visual and sensory input -- by everyone caught in it. Ideas, opinions, and attitudes are intangible. The reasons/emotions behind them usually complex. If one understands the reasons/emotions it is possible to take action. If you don't agree, that is perfectly fine with me, but it limits options.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #555 
I've been in a number of focus groups and have conducted them as well.

That aside, what is tangible to some, is intangible to others.

You can explain things to some, but you can't comprehend it for them.

That's where experience comes in, as life experience cannot be taught, or explained.

Either one knows something, or they don't.

Round & round discussions, or focus experiences, only extract limited information, which then gets collated & compiled.

It can form an understanding of the meaning within the data, but personally knowing something, involves an entirely different process.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #556 
If you really want to pursue this, let's move it to another thread, please. From what you say, it would appear you have no idea of what I am talking about in terms of design or group process. Which is perfectly understandable. But it is a digression from this important topic.


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Karen
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #557 

 

We don’t mind anyone polling and canvassing the pied issue. It would be good to know the stats!

Karen Cornel, 

Apart from piebalds being on the verge of extinction (with a test now available to expediate the process), there is also the need for breed clubs to accept natural colour variations so that breeders may be free to embrace the entirety of the breed’s gene-pool.  This will have an immediate effect on what breeders will choose to breed with tomorrow.  Regardless of coat colour or length of coat we should choose to breed representatives of the breed that most closely conform to our desired phenotype and that have the lowest possible Inbreeding coefficient (COI). By selecting against cosmetic traits we reduce our gene-pool and limit our breeding choices.

Steve, I wish you had bought that painting!!....LOL

Our breed is in peril along with many others, especially those that have bottlenecked. The amount of inbreeding that went on after the wars was enormous. Just pick a few dogs you like and work out their COI’s even just going back 6 or 7 generations. You will probably be very surprised,. Keep in mind too that the further back you go in the pedigree the higher the COI values will get.  

Our plan of action is to get our breed clubs to act. People say we’re desperate and selfish and that we spout propaganda and have a secret agenda…it's really crazy. We have always been out in the open on our support for pieds.   Our pied case is presently before both custodian breed clubs in the UK and we are doing our best to keep the pied issue in the spotlight until the matter can be voted upon at the club’s annual AGM’s. 

We can’t do much for pieds in America even though we’ve tried. We hope all of you who the love the breed will fight for them over there.  They are so important and no longer something breeders should continue pretending doesn’t exist.

 

 

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #558 
It appeared that the UK resolve regarding color, was going in your favor, when the non standard color change was added to the UK standard, but quickly reversed upon hearing from the opposition.

It would appear that a new appeal, given the health uber alles mentality, that permeates the continent, may gain footing for acceptance of non standard colorations.

I'm of the opinion, of walking before running in such matters, but who can tell where this all may lead!

As far as that painting is concerned, the big obstacle was shipping & insuring such a large iconic piece to the States. I felt that the costs of transport, handling, comm. & fees, were a bit excessive at $60k besides the cost of the painting. But who knows, the next time it goes up for auction, I might have that extra glass of scotch before I'm contacted by the phone bidder at Sotheby's.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Gammonwood

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Reply with quote  #559 

KC ... good to hear it!

 

Steve I don’t think the breed was served well when ‘Non-Standard’ colours were permitted. What does Non-standard mean? It could mean any colour. Mastiffs do not come in just any colour. The ambiguity of the term ‘Non-Standard’ was a genuine concern and I think that’s the main reason the term was removed from the standard just a few years after it was adopted.
I hope the painting ends up in a museum so we can at least visit it!

 

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #560 
Well, black Mastiffs were mentioned by Wynn and others, so it has validity, and so with blue-brindles as well.

I think the non standard term, was meant to encompass those above, plus apricot-brindles, light brindles and sooty fawns/apricots. I don't believe it meant every conceivable color, but the wording did leave that door open and therefore, it was removed.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #561 
[bb02540]
Description: This delicate handcoloured engraving originates from: 'Oeuvres completes de Buffon, avec des extraits de Daubenton et la classification de Cuvier.' Published in Paris by Au Bureau des Publications Illustrees, 59 Rue de la Harpe, 1839.

Artists and Engravers: Author: Georges-Louis Le Clerc, Comte de Buffon (September 7, 1707 - April 16, 1788). French naturalist, mathematician, biologist, cosmologist and author. Buffon's views influenced the next two generations of naturalists, including Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Charles Darwin. This handcoloured engravings is by Legrand after Ange Louis Janet-Lange (1815-1872).

Very difficult to overturn a fait accompli and the pied issue, is certainly the poster child for such issues in Mastiffs.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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