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glaciermastiffs

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Maybe with all this stuff with XXX and XXXXX stealing from unknowing puppy people maybe we could make a thread and pin it at the top of what to look for in a good breeder and how to read websites.  We should be responsible for helping people find great puppies.  There are red Flags that we could make people aware of  when searching. Like health testing, AKC ch in their pedigrees but not their dogs.  There are a number of things we could discuss that will help new puppies buyer use to screen through all the crap and purchase a puppy from a great breeder.  This would not be breeder bashing but informational on what to look for. No websites or breeders should be mentioned.


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Cece Wardell
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Heddi244

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Reply with quote  #2 
Well a major Red Flag for me CeCe would be someone asking for a deposit without puppies being on the ground.... I understand wanting to ensure a puppy buyer is serious, but really? So I give you (the breeder) a deposit on an planned breeding that never happens ,or 1 puppy born, all girls and I only want a boy, etc... too many variables until you see what you get.

I put a deposit down on Abrams after the litter was on the ground because I wanted HIM and no one else and to show I was serious was more than happy to send a deposit, which was minimal anyways.

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glaciermastiffs

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Reply with quote  #3 
Great post Heather that is exactly what I was thinking. 
There is no reason to take deposits until a breeder knows what they have to sell.  Mastiffs are not easy to breed, concieve and deliver. 

I think another red flag is how many litters they have available.

and

on the website they post pictures of dogs in the pedigree but not the ones they are breeding.  In fact like what happened to Dani pictures of dogs that are theirs very sad.

Saying puppies come from champion lines ok how far back are these CH

Statements like there are dogs that are health tested in my line but I don't health test or saying they do health test and please go check on them you can find all dogs that have been tested by OFFA on their website http://www.OFFA.ORG puppy buyers go check search under the kennel name and see how many of their dogs have been tested.



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Cece Wardell
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Jademmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #4 
Am I the only breeder who doesnt take deposits? Just curious.....

I see no point in it? If you want one of my puppies I dont need your money up front. If I approve of you and promise you a pup you'll get a pup, regardless of a deposit or not. If puppy buyers are serious and want a pup bad enough they'll be there to pick up their pup when ready and pay all monies at the time of pick up. If not some other lucky person will......JMO

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cariston

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Reply with quote  #5 
This is a link I have posted on my website....   IMO Alot of it is true..


http://www.pgaa.com/CANINE/GENERAL/KENNELVISIT.HTML

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Reply with quote  #6 
Hi CeCe,
I've had this article on my website for quite awhile now which talks about a lot of warnings. If anyone would like to copy and use it on their site, please feel free....

http://goldleafmastiffs.com/AvoidPoorlyBredPuppies.html


Mastiff breeders are becoming more and more concerned with the large number of poorly bred puppies that are being sold to the unsuspecting puppy buyer. Many of these puppies end up having numerous health problems and poor temperaments. We have been working together and have come up with a list that we feel could be indications of an inferior bred puppy, and what you, the puppy buyer, should be aware of when searching for your new addition. These red flags are listed below.

First and foremost, NEVER purchase a puppy from a pet store. These puppies are usually raised by irresponsible backyard breeders or puppy mills and rarely have any pedigree or health information available. You should also never buy from someone that sits in front of a store and has a box of adorable little puppies for sale.

Listed below are some of the red flags you may want to watch for when searching for a responsible breeder.....


  • Lack of health testing of parents before breeding - may mention they "know their lines" and testing is unnecessary. Responsible breeders feel strongly that health testing is necessary to limit the chance of producing an unhealthy puppy. If absolutely no health testing can be verified, you should look for a puppy elsewhere.


  • Pedigrees that display "convenience breeding" rather than selected breeding. A dedicated breeder will have selected the two dogs they breed to produce puppies very carefully, and will
    be familiar with all their parents. Some indications of "convenience breeding" or puppy mill breedings are no champions, very young or old parents, and/or the breeder is unfamiliar with any of the dogs in the pedigree. Ask for a 3 generation pedigree. Beware of a breeding that may have been done from convenience or a puppy mill, rather than a thoughtful selection for the best possible puppy.


  • Someone that produces puppies in mass quantities and/or is breeding several different breeds of dogs at one time. This can be a tricky one.... Some very responsible breeders produce
    higher amounts of puppies than others breeders. They health test their dogs, take good care of them, participate in AKC events, and produce some very nice puppies. Not all responsible
    breeders are the same and this is where the pedigree research and a close relationship with your breeder comes into play. The goal here is to AVOID puppy mills.


  • Someone that can not answer breed specific questions. A responsible breeder should always be able to give you specific information about the breed, such as known health issues that are associated with that breed.


  • Someone that does not register their dogs with AKC (American Kennel Club) or the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), but may use a different registry such as the Continental Kennel Club - be careful...the last two clubs mentioned use the same initials). If a breeder does not offer AKC registration, it is usually because the parents are not registered and very likely came from a backyard breeder or puppy mill.)


  • Someone that fails to ask you (the buyer) questions about your home, family, environment for the puppy, etc. A responsible breeder cares deeply for the health and happiness of the puppies they produce. Their goal is to make sure all their puppies go to a safe, secure, loving home and if they fail to ask you questions, it's a good indication that they do NOT put the well being of their puppies first. You should continue your search for a breeder that cares deeply about their puppies.


  • A low priced puppy is more than likely a poorly bred puppy. Responsible breeders spend large amounts of money on reproduction, health, showing, etc. There are too many expenses to list at this time, but if you see a puppy priced very low, chances are you would not be getting a quality bred puppy. Another indication is a breeder that charges a low amount and/or a "click here to pay for your puppy" on their website or allows their puppies to be purchased on credit. We feel that if a puppy must be purchased on credit, the family may not be financially secure enough to take care of unexpected medical expenses. Mastiffs are a giant breed and vet care can become very expensive in no time. Back yard breeders and puppy mills can and do sometimes charge higher amounts for their puppies to "mask' their poor breedings. They fool people into believing that a higher priced puppy is a well bred puppy. This is not true and again, pedigree research becomes very important.



Of course, there are exceptions to the above, but we feel that this is a good place to start. Our goal is to help the puppy buyer find a responsible breeder who can provide them with a healthy, happy puppy. If we can help you or answer any of your questions, please feel free to contact us.



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glaciermastiffs

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Reply with quote  #7 
Great link!!
No Tina I don't think you are the only one I have never taken a deposit for a puppy and I know of many breeders that do not take deposits they take names and when pups are born they contact the people if they are still looking and interested they will let let you know but to take a non refundable deposit and hold for another litter if they can not accomodate you and provide a puppy is wrong.  That is not fair to tie up someones money and lock them into you for the future of if and when there is a puppy available.  But Tina I agree with you totally in your statement.


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Cece Wardell
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ethertonhaverly

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Reply with quote  #8 

Awesome...I am taking notes!

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Reply with quote  #9 
No, you're not.  I didn't accept deposits either.  With as many people as were expressing interest in a puppy (1) I felt it was entirely unnecessary to ask someone to commit, (2) it kept me from choosing the absolute very best families when the puppies were available and (3) gave me much more time to speak with potential buyers and get a real feel for what they were like and whether I would have a puppy that would fit.  I simply asked interested people to keep checking back with me through whelping and raising.  If they followed through and called regularly, I felt pretty darn good about their commitment and had a very good "feel" for which puppy might be a good match.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jademmastiffs
Am I the only breeder who doesnt take deposits? Just curious.....

I see no point in it? If you want one of my puppies I dont need your money up front. If I approve of you and promise you a pup you'll get a pup, regardless of a deposit or not. If puppy buyers are serious and want a pup bad enough they'll be there to pick up their pup when ready and pay all monies at the time of pick up. If not some other lucky person will......JMO

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Karen K.
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Reply with quote  #10 
You know what, guys.  If we could come up with an agreed upon list of things to look for, it would make a very good locked thread or even something many of us could incorporate into our web sites.  I wonder if a group as diverse as this one could agree on a list of things potential buyers should look for in a determining a reputable breeder and suitable pup.

Is it a project we would want to undertake?  Or is there enough interest?  Would there be enough agreement as to what to look for?   A lot of people looking for a Mastiff would certainly appreciate it and it might even, if posted widely enough, help decrease the number of puppies purchased from byb's and received into rescue.  

Thoughts? 


Quote:
Originally Posted by goldleaf
Hi CeCe,
I've had this article on my website for quite awhile now which talks about a lot of warnings. If anyone would like to copy and use it on their site, please feel free....

http://goldleafmastiffs.com/AvoidPoorlyBredPuppies.html


Mastiff breeders are becoming more and more concerned with the large number of poorly bred puppies that are being sold to the unsuspecting puppy buyer. Many of these puppies end up having numerous health problems and poor temperaments. We have been working together and have come up with a list that we feel could be indications of an inferior bred puppy, and what you, the puppy buyer, should be aware of when searching for your new addition. These red flags are listed below.

First and foremost, NEVER purchase a puppy from a pet store. These puppies are usually raised by irresponsible backyard breeders or puppy mills and rarely have any pedigree or health information available. You should also never buy from someone that sits in front of a store and has a box of adorable little puppies for sale.

Listed below are some of the red flags you may want to watch for when searching for a responsible breeder.....


  • Lack of health testing of parents before breeding - may mention they "know their lines" and testing is unnecessary. Responsible breeders feel strongly that health testing is necessary to limit the chance of producing an unhealthy puppy. If absolutely no health testing can be verified, you should look for a puppy elsewhere.


  • Pedigrees that display "convenience breeding" rather than selected breeding. A dedicated breeder will have selected the two dogs they breed to produce puppies very carefully, and will
    be familiar with all their parents. Some indications of "convenience breeding" or puppy mill breedings are no champions, very young or old parents, and/or the breeder is unfamiliar with any of the dogs in the pedigree. Ask for a 3 generation pedigree. Beware of a breeding that may have been done from convenience or a puppy mill, rather than a thoughtful selection for the best possible puppy.


  • Someone that produces puppies in mass quantities and/or is breeding several different breeds of dogs at one time. This can be a tricky one.... Some very responsible breeders produce
    higher amounts of puppies than others breeders. They health test their dogs, take good care of them, participate in AKC events, and produce some very nice puppies. Not all responsible
    breeders are the same and this is where the pedigree research and a close relationship with your breeder comes into play. The goal here is to AVOID puppy mills.


  • Someone that can not answer breed specific questions. A responsible breeder should always be able to give you specific information about the breed, such as known health issues that are associated with that breed.


  • Someone that does not register their dogs with AKC (American Kennel Club) or the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), but may use a different registry such as the Continental Kennel Club - be careful...the last two clubs mentioned use the same initials). If a breeder does not offer AKC registration, it is usually because the parents are not registered and very likely came from a backyard breeder or puppy mill.)


  • Someone that fails to ask you (the buyer) questions about your home, family, environment for the puppy, etc. A responsible breeder cares deeply for the health and happiness of the puppies they produce. Their goal is to make sure all their puppies go to a safe, secure, loving home and if they fail to ask you questions, it's a good indication that they do NOT put the well being of their puppies first. You should continue your search for a breeder that cares deeply about their puppies.


  • A low priced puppy is more than likely a poorly bred puppy. Responsible breeders spend large amounts of money on reproduction, health, showing, etc. There are too many expenses to list at this time, but if you see a puppy priced very low, chances are you would not be getting a quality bred puppy. Another indication is a breeder that charges a low amount and/or a "click here to pay for your puppy" on their website or allows their puppies to be purchased on credit. We feel that if a puppy must be purchased on credit, the family may not be financially secure enough to take care of unexpected medical expenses. Mastiffs are a giant breed and vet care can become very expensive in no time. Back yard breeders and puppy mills can and do sometimes charge higher amounts for their puppies to "mask' their poor breedings. They fool people into believing that a higher priced puppy is a well bred puppy. This is not true and again, pedigree research becomes very important.



Of course, there are exceptions to the above, but we feel that this is a good place to start. Our goal is to help the puppy buyer find a responsible breeder who can provide them with a healthy, happy puppy. If we can help you or answer any of your questions, please feel free to contact us.



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Karen K.
http://www.MastiffsVonHimmel.com

Southern States Mastiff Rescue: http://www.SouthernStatesMastiffRescue.org
Teresa

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Reply with quote  #11 
Probably much of a repeat of what others said, but here what I tell people:
Tips on Buying Your Mastiff Puppy
                                                By: Teresa McMahan
NEVER BUY FROM A PET STORE!!!! PERIOD. These puppies are from puppy mills and are usually over-priced and NOT healthy!! You will pay as much for a pet store puppy as you will for an excellent, well-bred puppy from a reputable breeder, and you will get a lifetime of heartache in vet bills and possible temperament issues.

Well, as with anything that cost money, you have the good breeders and the bad breeders. Many people have had horrible experiences with trying to find a good breeder and it's no secret why. These are expensive dogs and are becoming increasingly more popular. It becomes imperative that you research the breeder you are interested in and ask the right questions of them. Also, try to find out if they have a good reputation or not. Therein lies one of the biggest challenges. Many people fear saying their opinion of breeders for fear of either being brought up on MCOA ethics charges or having that breeder decide to go out on  a smear campaign against anyone who says negative things about their kennel. Nonetheless, here are a few tips that might help. Other members, please feel free to add anything I might have left out.
1.) Once you have found a breeder, ask questions!! If the breeder gets defensive about the questions, find another breeder!!
     a.) What health testing have you done on your dogs?
         ( a very minimum should be hips/elbow and PRA free; ideally, it would also be nice to see patellas, cardiac, thyroid and CERF.) Don't take anyone's word for it. Look up the parents of the litter's information on the OFA website (http://www.offa.org/search.html). Unfortunately, people will lie about health testing results if they are not reputable. However, just because it's not on the OFA website, ask the breeder if they have proof of testing. Sometimes OFA is slow about posting data. Also, PennHip is not listed on the OFA site and is an acceptable way of testing hips.
     b.) What kind of contract do you have?
If you are wanting to show, you should ask to see the show contract. Read it carefully and be sure you can live with the terms and that it's fair to both breeder and buyers. It should read "show potential" because no breeder can absolutely guarantee you that the puppy will absolutely grow up to be a show dog. So much can happen between 8 weeks and time to show. A "good faith attempt to show" clause is acceptable and will show you really do plan on trying to show the dog. If you are only searching for a pet, then a pet contract SHOULD be a limited registration with a spay/neuter clause. Also, reputable breeders WILL take back any puppy that is displaced for any reason usually at the buyers expense. If they won't, there is a problem. There should be a reasonable health guarantee as well. Remember, you can request changes in the contract if there is something you are not comfortable with. Don't sign it if your not comfortable. Personally, I caution against co-owner agreements unless you know the breeder is truly reputable. If you co-own your dog, you are bound to that breeder for the life of the dog. I've seen some pretty outrageous co-own contract, but I've also seen some very fair ones. The fair ones usually are to protect the puppy from a buyer whose only goal is to breed!
     c.) Do you show your dogs? This is only important because it shows that the breeder IS interested in breeding dogs that meet the AKC standard. However, there are some good breeders who do not show for various reasons, so don't necessarily rule anyone out on this alone.
     d.) What are the prices and deposits for show versus pet quality dogs? Puppies that are priced too low or ridiculously high are red flags. The average for a pet is approximately $2000 and the average for a show quality is approximately $3000 (give or take $500 either direction). Deposits can be refundable or non-refundable. Be sure and ASK about that. Personally, I do refundable deposits IF the buyer notifies me 3 weeks prior to the puppies 8 week birthday. Also, I do not take deposits until I am sure I have enough puppies in my litter to accommodate the buyer (so not until they are born and are a couple of weeks old). I don't breed often, so I do not want to tie up someone's money if I'm not going to have the puppy for them in a reasonable amount of time.
  e.) Ask what the temperament of the parents is like. Unfortunately, there are well known breeders who are breeding some bad temperaments. With dogs that get as big as Mastiffs do, this can be horrible. If you can go visit the parents, that's ideal, but that isn't always possible long distance. Then, you just have to ask around and hope someone will give you the information. Caution: there is a great deal of competition among breeders, so don't necessarily nix a breeder because another one said they were awful. Yes, I know it's hard to know who's telling you the truth and who is just sabotaging the competition.
  f.) Ask if the puppies are AKC registered. Many "breeders" are pawning off American Mastiff and other crosses as Mastiff and they are NOT true Mastiffs. They are mutts with an expensive price tag and often have severe temperament and health issues.
   g.) Ask the breeder if they have any questions of you. If they don't, THAT is a problem unless you know them personally or have been highly recommended by someone they do know. A good breeder will grill you as much as you grill them. If all they are interested in is your deposit and your cash for the puppy  and NOT the kind of home you can give your new puppy, find another breeder.

2.) Be patient. The biggest mistakes in buying a puppy have occurred when the buyer thinks they MUST HAVE A PUPPY NOW. Trust me, there will be good litters all the time and to rush into buying is a mistake. Research the breed, research the breeder and WAIT for the puppy that fits what YOU want. It will come. Look near and far. I live in western Texas and have had puppies shipped to me from Ohio, Oregon and Mississippi with absolutely NO problems. I have shipped a puppy to the San Francisco area, again with no problem. Do not limit yourself to your immediate area. Newspaper ads are not usually a good idea either, but if you ask all the right question and get all the right answers, I guess it could be a way to find a puppy.

3.) Be honest with yourself and the breeder. If you do not like slobbering, shedding huge dogs, don't get a Mastiff. Do not get a Mastiff if you plan on sticking it out in the backyard and never having it as a part of your family. Mastiffs NEED their people and should be house dogs or, at the very least, kennels dogs that get a great deal of socialization (I personally prefer to sale to people with every intention of making their puppy a household pet). If you have anyone in your family with pet allergies, don't get a Mastiff. If you do not have a well fenced area, do not get a Mastiff (underground electric fences are horrible for Mastiffs and can cause them to be aggressive). Do not get a Mastiff to train as a guard dog. It is a bad idea and can cause an aggressive Mastiff. DO plan on taking your Mastiff puppy to puppy kindergarten. These dogs get really big and NEED to be obedient.

4.) Do not be afraid to ask the breeder for references. A good breeder will gladly oblige. On the flip side, EXPECT a good breeder to ask you for your references as well.

4.) RED FLAGS:
      a.) no health testing; I used to say unless the breeder has a long line of healthy dogs, but I no longer believe that. Health testing is essential PERIOD, including Cystinuria testing on stud dogs.
      b.) seller insist on you breeding your dog and giving them a puppy back regardless of the temperament of the dog or the health testing of the dog.
      c.) seller tries to rush you into a decision.
      d.) seller ask for deposit/payment on puppy without any information about you.
      e.) seller is defensive when you ask reasonable questions
      f.) seller does not have a contract or presents you with an unreasonable contract
      g.) seller advertises fully health tested dogs, but cannot produce proof of testing
       h.) price is too low OR too high (see above)
       i.) Breeder will allow the puppy to leave mother/siblings UNDER 8 weeks old


      

Finally, talk to the breeder on the phone or in person. Remember, you will be expected to deal with your breeder for the lifetime of the dog if they are a good breeder. If it is someone who acts "put out" by all your questions, think to yourself "how are they going to be if issues come up with my puppy". A good breeder will be there for you from the time you decide to buy one of their puppies until your dog departs the earth. There's nothing more valuable than a good breeder who is there for you and your puppy.



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Reply with quote  #12 
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but in a perfect world this would be a great idea, however...we can't reach the everyday Joe schmo who wanders around the mall or sees something on the internet (such as any BYB) but we can sure post here. When you think about the volumes of Mastiffs being bred by everyone, it's almost an impossible task...
I know I'm from the old days, but I did breeder referral and rescue and from where I am sitting it doesn't look any better with our breed, in fact with all the info out there you WOULD think things are better...but just "googling" Mastiff brings with it all sorts of "breeders", like the one Dani had to deal with.
Not all care a rat's ass about testing, and in this country people ARE willing to send paypal, Visa and MC through the mail to reserve a puppy.,,reputable breeders seem far and few between...
I think Tina and Jann have wonderful websites and I wish every freekin breeder out there abided by these ethics...but even some high volume breeders don't care about where and how their "stock" is sold. We have quite a few of them...in fact reading some contracts with giving back puppies, showing, ....etc...can seem like a deterrant to some and they go to these fly by night breeders.
Sorry to go on, this group IS diverse, yet committed to the protection and dedication of our Mastiff breed, the sheer amount of "kennels" out there are not.
I've been seeing and hearing the same thing for over these many years, and yet we still have humongous problems ...people this day in age want a puppy NOW and a great number don't want to hear about papers, testing and contracts...they just want a BIG dog...
It seems the days of phone calls and visiting numerous breeders is a thing of the past (I agree Teresa) I also refer people to the Parent Club site for info and code of ethics...
Good luck with this endeavor, and even though I don't breed, and I'm old and decrepid (LOL) I still think our hearts and heads our in the right place and I'm more than willing to keep on helping and educating those that DO want to do the right thing and plunk down a huge amount of money for a quality Mastiff...
BTW, you WOULD think that the prices being what they are people would want to ensure that they are getting a healthy, tested Mastiff, but some just don't care.
Gina

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:

but just "googling" Mastiff brings with it all sorts of "breeders", like the one Dani had to deal with.



Careful Gina, you'll get accused of breeder bashing!.....LOL

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #14 
I thought I was the only one that didn't take deposits without an available puppy.Why take people's money and hold them hostage?If they find someone else they would rather get a puppy from that's great.I don't have to force people to get a puppy from me.
Some people demand that you take a deposit because they want first pick or they don't want to go anywhere else,that's fine but if they want it back heck give it back it isn't your money!!!

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Reply with quote  #15 
Thanks for the reminder Steve...
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Reply with quote  #16 
Gina, you hit the nail on the head. Most people out there do just want a big dog. Noble comes to work with me every day, so I get a lot of questions about how much he costs and if I plan on breeding him. I normally tell people he cost a lot, and they try to guess. It's normally in the 1200-1500 range. I grin and give them a 20 second speech about health issues in Mastiffs and testing. Then I tell them that I may breed him and that puppies will be in the 2000+ range. Most people will give a whistle and tell me they will wait until the mutt dog down the street has puppies, but I have had one person who keeps coming back to ask questions.

That said, I think it is important for breeders to be open with one another about their contracts and policies without bashing. It is a way of educating one another and maybe some can update their old policies, while newer breeders get an education on how everyone else does it. Having an open line of communication becomes helpful in the long run. Especially if someone gets into trouble, at least they will feel like they have someone to turn to.

I really got screwed on a contract for Dazey (Mini). It required I give a puppy back to the breeder or pay her $1600! Once Dazey hit a year old the breeder started hounding me, so we had a litter. I love having puppies in the house, but it is something I could have skipped. Dazey had 4 puppies. When I took the breeder her pick, she told me I could keep it. WTF? I would never have made it if I knew she was going to do that! I gave one pup to my MIL and kept the other three (hence why I have 5 Mini's in the house.) Needless to say, EVERYONE is getting fixed.

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Reply with quote  #17 
Gina in regards to what you are saying...what if we made this 'list' of things to watch for put it on it's own site (there are many free ones or blogs) And have the 'search' criteria be that of what the everyday person is looking up. It's a start! And it would potentially reach more uneducated buyers rather than just having it on a forum or personal website, etc. There's only SO much we can do, but we can definitely try and see how it turns out.

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Reply with quote  #18 
I believe the warnings and info are available IF you do your homework. Some people chose not to and some don't know that you should. We don't have our Mastiff baby yet (for those of you who don't know the circumstances...they are shady at best) but it may actually be a blessing in disguise. I thought that we HAD done our homework, but know now that I probably won't ever stop learing. I have gotten so much great information from this board and each of your websites everyday! What to look for in a breeder...what to feed...how to properly socialize...etc. My husband and I are educated people, but just in different areas. Having this forum (specifically even this thread) gives us the tools to make the best decisions we can before and after having our pup. Thank you!

The comment above about cost hit home for me (moonlightfarm). A year ago we wanted a dog. A mixed breed, full breed....didn't really matter. Then we started searching general information and breeds and narrowed it down to a few....and then later to English Mastiffs. There was so much that said we would be a great fit together. The cost was obviously to be considered, but we new we could afford the puppy, feeding, classes, vet bills and be as financially sound as we are now. By no means are we living "high on the hog" lol...but we are a very budget savvy family.

When ppl hear about our "puppy deposit drama" and realize that it was only a deposit...the next question is..."Well, how the hell much is the dog!?" (almost always stated in that fashion!) When I give the price and the reasons why an EM is so costly...but why they are so worth it....most tell me to "Just go get a mutt from a shelter!" I will be frank with you...at times this has all gotten to be so overwhelming and down right frustrating that the temptation of just SIMPLIFYING and going to the shelter has spoken to me more than once. But we are true in our efforts and will continue to do so!

The only advice I can give to someone that may start looking for a pup (of any breed) is this.....you may find some breeders (not neccasarily the breeder you are going to use...rather someone just trying to give you helpful words of wisdom) who will tell you this is "business" and you use your head. Others will tell you its a "matter of heart" (someone trying to guilt you into making a decision) and if you question things "your heart is in the wrong place". I think its a combination of both. I want a puppy/dog to love and become part of my family, but first I need to do business with the humans running the show. That means if I ask too many questions, or my questions become an inconvenience to a breeder than that breeder isn't for me. I tell myself that if the breeder loves the puppy as much as he/she says, then he/she will be thankful to have such an inquisitive puppy buyer. Hope that makes sense?

Bobbi Jo


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Reply with quote  #19 
Deposits are ridiculous, and non-refundable just pisses me off.
If you fill out the  applications I have and we approve you, no reason for a deposit. Taking deposits on puppies not born and/or not conceived is robbery, IMHO. I have always been leery of people who do that. Too much fraud going on in the world. We wait until the puppies are ready for their homes and not until.


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GinaG

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Reply with quote  #20 
Can I ask who the breeder/ads are on the bottom of this page?
Gina

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Reply with quote  #21 
I've posted this on other websites and have a very hard line about breeders I would trust and why.

People just give their hard earned money to strangers and don't have a clue about the individual or what they even believe or goals or anything.  You only discover those things by long term relationships or a lot of hunting through their history.

Why?

I want to know if they even know what a good dog is.  Why are they breeding.  For the money?  Because they love dogs?  Mastiffs?  Do they understand what they are doing and why?  What will happen in the middle of the nite when I call in a panic (because I will - it always happens).  Will they roll over and go back to sleep or give me a quick call just to say - sorry sweetie I've been out all nite drinking and I may not be much help but I'm here even if I'm not much help.  I want someone that will be there.  I don't know everything and when the emergency happens I need all hands on deck and need you (the breeder).  There so much more - but hope everyone gets my drift.  I'm not just paying someone to be there to cash the check.  If that's all you want - then don't let me have one of your puppies because your going to be really disappointed in me when I expect so much more.  Deposits don't get you anywhere in my humble opinion.


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Reply with quote  #22 

I saw on craigslist in Terra Huate Indiana that there was purebred mastiff puppies for sale. This add was up for about 3 days and the people kept updating it with how many dogs where left. I sent them the questions in #11, when they stated they had 5 dogs left, and guess what happened. They wrote me back saying that they had no dogs for sale and it was a mistake on craigslist part. They said they don't even own a dog. I checked after I got the email back and the add was removed.  Now does that sound like a bad breeder? I think it was weird that I started to ask questions about their dogs and their add went down. I was not looking for a puppy just wanted to test these questions out on people who advertise on craigslist. I guess it scared them off. lol


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''A friend is someone who understands your past, believes in your future, and accepts you just the way you are.” ----I love you Harlee!!------My name is Ashley.
**I miss you Harlee and I will always love you. Be good for your new mommy, Beth. Hope to see you again one day♥♥**
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Reply with quote  #23 
So what about these puppy mill ads? How did they get here?
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GinaG

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Reply with quote  #24 
at the bottom of the page ....
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Sunstone

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Reply with quote  #25 
Gina, it's probably some sort of smart search thing, sponsored ads.
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Reply with quote  #26 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethertonhaverly

When ppl hear about our "puppy deposit drama" and realize that it was only a deposit...the next question is..."Well, how the hell much is the dog!?" (almost always stated in that fashion!) When I give the price and the reasons why an EM is so costly...but why they are so worth it....most tell me to "Just go get a mutt from a shelter!" I will be frank with you...at times this has all gotten to be so overwhelming and down right frustrating that the temptation of just SIMPLIFYING and going to the shelter has spoken to me more than once. But we are true in our efforts and will continue to do so!


Bobbi Jo


I hear this EXACT same thing from my co-workers.  Go to a shelter, why on Earth spend that much for a dog!  They just don't understand why I want an EM. 

They are the same people who shake their head at me telling me I was crazy to sink $5,000 into my Lab when he needed 2 TPLO surgeries.  Dogs aren't worth it they say.  Well, I'm sorry but they are a part of my family and I do anything I can for them.

I know they mean well, but they just don't understand.

Dawn


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Reply with quote  #27 
thank you Barrie...I was just wondering...
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ethertonhaverly

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Reply with quote  #28 
Having a moment of upset...someone please help....I spend hours every night looking for a breeder in NY area with puppies available. I cannot locate anyone that does testing AND has pups ....very appreciated!

Bobbi Jo
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Reply with quote  #29 
Bobbi Jo...have you tried the MCOA breeder referral packet? Very informative and lists available breeders in your area...
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Reply with quote  #30 

No Gina...I guess I was just thinking I could find the same info through searches...you are probably right though. I just wish all of our stars would align already! :0)

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Reply with quote  #31 

When did MCOA begin requiring testing ?
ethertonhaverly

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Reply with quote  #32 

Just wanted to say all of this info. has been so helpful and tonight I sigh and smile with hope of good things to come as I believe we have found our breeder.....we have a bit of a wait...but in the big scheme of things the wait is going to be worth it :0)

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Reply with quote  #33 
We had an Iron hills dog in '94  and loved him so much that when he died we wanted another.  We waited for over a year for another to come when it did not we got "lucky--hard work searching resources(breeders)--for a new boy.  We got truely lucky and got a Caledonia bitch.

We then waited another almost 18 months getting our boy.  Patience is a virtue.

I would suggest checking the pedigrees for Champs, and see what the breeders that are selling finished.  There are exeptions, I had a high quality Nightstalker bitch and a Iron Hills male a Ch. Iron hills once apon a wagon son who I could not finish as I was in college.

Be very afraid of breeders with many dogs as their "stock/off-spring" might not be very "socialized"

I know a few breeders whose stuff cannot be shown as they are too scared or timid--AND GOD FORBID TOO UNPREDICTABLE/AGGRESSIVE.

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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
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Reply with quote  #34 
did not mean to say I owned ch. iron hills once upon a wagon--rather one of his sons.
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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
Jake1972

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Reply with quote  #35 
One other tip--anyone pointing to coloration of ears/finger-toenails as a sign of good breeding--does not understand breeding, those are phoenotipic genes which can be corrected in a breeding or two.

Stucture--angulation, proper structure of the rear end AND most importantly temperment takes YEARS to correct.

Do you want a "PRETTY" mastiff or a friendly functional one?

In the correct world they would all have all those traits, in this the "Good" ones have all those traits.

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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
glaciermastiffs

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Reply with quote  #36 
Hi Jake and welcome,
As far as looking for champions in the pedigree I have to disagree it is important yes but as a baseline no.  Many of the great kennels that produce wonderful mastiffs do not show.  Look at Greiner Hall, St Patricks to mention a few some of the larger heavier mastiffs will not do well in the show ring does that make them a bad breeder NO.  I think a person looking for a great breeder needs to look at the lines how long they have been breeding the health history and health testing of dogs in their lines.  Not all Great Mastiffs are show dogs in my opinion.   Also  to mention the number of dogs a breeder has does not mean that offspring with have  socialization issues.  Puppies that go to there new homes and are under contract need to socialize and train their puppies.  I believe temperament is inherent I do not think it is based on the number of dogs you have 

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Jake1972

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Reply with quote  #37 
Hello Cece, not to get into an arguement but your very first post mentions "AKC Champions in their pedigree..." as the second criteria AND your post from 4/13/11 "saying puppies come from champion lines ok how far back"  Also affirms the importance of champions and lineage.

I also acknowledged that there are some exceptions, I had 2 high quality dogs which for the most part were not shown.

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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
glaciermastiffs

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Reply with quote  #38 

Oh I am not arguing with you.  What I am saying is that people really need to educate themselves and learn pedigrees.  Yes AKC CH dogs mean something but the lines must also be researched a CH does not mean they are a breedable dog.  You have just started showing and have been to lots of shows not every dog in the ring is great quality.  So what I am saying is a person needs to do their research.  For instance my line in my pedigrees have a lot of Greiner Hall, Chagrin, Millcreek and Greco in my opinion high quality mastiffs but there are not a lot of champions so when looking at pedigrees a lot must be taken into concideration and this is done through education, coming to boards like these calling lots of breeders getting their opinions ask questions about the lines and why do they breed a particular pedigree.  I show my dogs yes but do I think it is absolutely necessary no.  In fact more so lately I think to many great dogs get passed over by judges because of what handler is on a dog it is not so much about the dog anymore as the handler, and Yes I use a handler.  I just wanted to point out that to look at a pedigree and ONLY look for champions is not the only way to look for a breeder or a puppy. jmo


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Jake1972

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Reply with quote  #39 
The problem with expecting the Lay person to educate themselves about pedigrees is that I believe it is unrealistic to expect that of most people.  Breeders however should be honor bound to do so, and those that do not are more in line with "puppy mill" breeders.

on a liter note are you going to coer d alene--if so how many are you bringing?

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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
Jake1972

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Reply with quote  #40 
Ps I did show a bit in the 90's--an Iron hills dog (son of once upon a wagon) and a nightstalker bitch.

I was too busy with college though.

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Hello, we have BISS BOSS Grand Champion(GOLD) Caledonia Isengard Mithril, #1 Bitch in HISTORY by Grand Points, she has 39 BOBs, she won TWO AWARDS OF MERIT at EUKANUBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, #3 BITCH AND #9 Mastiff by GCH points 2013, #3 Bitch ALL SYSTEMS 2011 We also have GCH.Caledonia Isengard Tol Brandir HE JUST WENT BEST OF WINNERS and RESERVE WINNERS DOG at Pleasanton at 18 months old and 200 pounds. And GCH. Isengard Glamdring-Foes Hammer she finished her CH at 10 months and her Grand Championship at 15months 7days
http://www.ISENGARD-MASTIFFS.COM
hunterr1950

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Reply with quote  #41 

What a great link but also has my head spinning! 

I lost my Angel Love 6 years ago and only recently got my courage up to search for a new puppy and great breeder.

Back when I got Angel I had done the research on the English Breed for many years prior and know this was the Baby for me! But what I didn’t research was the breeder. Angel had many health issues including glaucoma! She passed at the early age of 6 yrs old.   

All I want is a healthy long living Baby that will enjoy car rides, snuggling to watch TV and sleep with me.  Is that too much to ask for??

Linda

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Reply with quote  #42 
I found one.  She owns this site.  Her dogs are tightly line bred and health tested to the extreme.

The pedigree she is working with is amazing as are the results. 

I have an amazing puppy in my home right now. 

I can't think of a better pup and a more reputable breeder.  More than one reputable breeder recommended Linda to me.  She is a reputable breeder in the eyes of reputable breeders and her dogs reflect this.

H


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Reply with quote  #43 
Thank you Herb!  There ought to be a thread titled "How to find a reputable Owner" - you would certainly top my list!
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Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
slinger2

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Reply with quote  #44 
Hi ,when i was ,looking for a Bulldog,I joined a Bullie list .

I think thats a good way to find honest ,breeders and careing owners .

Bull dog people can be a real pain ,and they were so behind us <LOL>
Some or most always want either 1/2 the litter back ,or two Pups back .

No testing ,I think they are changing on that thinking tho.

So Mastiff breeders are no where near them <LOL> But i did find a very good BullDog breeder.

And we are still friends today <LOL> So try looking on Boards like this one .


Marge
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Reply with quote  #45 
This all information really helped me so much and I think it will help to many other people. thanking you....
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Reply with quote  #46 
Just wanted to thank everyone that's contributed to this thread!
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Reply with quote  #47 
I am looking for a good breeder of english mastiffs in metro detroit. I tried an i nternet search but I felt like I was going in circles. Any help would be appreciated.
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Reply with quote  #48 
I'm not sure what sort of reputable Mastiff breeders are in/around Detroit, however if you'd expand your search a bit, I'm quite confident that there is a good Mastiff breeder for you in MI, OH, IL, etc.
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resources for rescue ==> http://www.englishmastiffrescue.net/

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Reply with quote  #49 

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Wolfmanmama

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Reply with quote  #50 
Does anyone of a mastiff breeder around dickinson North Dakota? I am not looking to show I am just looking for a great companion to add to our family? There is only a pet shop here I can find and I would like to not go to a pet store but an actual breeder. Plus the pet store only cares small tiny toy dogs no mastiffs . Any information would be greatly appreciated thanks. Jen
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