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What is Cystinuria?  Is there nutrition involved in having Cystinuria?  If the dog has it --should it be Breed?  How is it transmitted?  Let's talk about what you really know about this, and let's dis-spell the fiction and get to the True Facts of the matter.

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Cystinuria, A disorder found in Mastiffs characterized by stones in the kidney ureter and bladder. Cystinuria is hereditary and is more dangerous to males then females because of their anatomy.

                                                           Mary


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Reply with quote  #3 

So if you are trying to save a pedigree there is a way to breed to the dog, and achieve what you want safely.

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Cystinuria only produces symptoms in males, but female carriers can and do pass it on to both males and females(as carriers) in any pups they produce.  The problem is that females do not test positive so the only way to know if they are carriers is for them to produce a litter with a positive male.   Males can only pass it on to the females they produce,  so theoretically if you breed a positive male to a female whos lines you know have not produced cystinuria the males should not have it but the females may be carriers and all should be spayed.  Bottom line is that males can not produce positive males but can produce carrier females who if bred can pass it on to both males and females.  

I had bought a bitch, bred her, kept a daughter and bred her.  A male, from the original litter four and a half years later ended up with stones and is positive for cystinuria.  In the daughters litter the only male is also cysinuria positive but does not have stones yet.  So the original bitch was a carrier, passed it on to her daughter, also a carrier, who then produced a positive male.  I have the bitches the from the second litter and I will not breed them because they could produce positive males and carrier daughters.  If you are willing to spay any bitch that comes from a litter with a positive male then I feel it is alright to breed to that male,  but any bitch that has positve brothers should not be bred, because you do not know if they are carriers and you will continue to produce positive males and carrier females.  I know someone who just did this and it is wrong.  So many people spout off about bettering the breed,  continuing to produce a disease in males that is serious and life threatening shows no regard for the breed what-so- ever!!!!   Believe me, the one bitch I have is beautiful and it kills me to kknow she will never be bred but I choose to better the breed not produce more dogs with problems that need not be.



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Can you get a false positive on one test, but have several after that as negative?  Can the high protein diet a Dog be on --give you the wrong results?  Before the rumors start flying, I am not asking about this because of any of my dogs.  Education only. 

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Deborah,

You asked if there is a way to "safely" breed an affected dog.  Dr Henthorn says: (in the article copied above) "bottom line is that the breeding of affected dogs of either gender or of carrier females will transmit mutant alleles to offspring and may produce cystinuric animals."  Some people have put forth the theory that  males will not transmit to other males , but it is a THEORY. 

There is a "cystinuria interest group " on Yahoo.   One of the things that I have learned there is that there have been false positives on the test but usually because the dog is taking antibiotics.  Dogs can also test negative and later develop the disease.  Most  tests of dogs  under about age of 18 months will be negative.  BUT once a dog develops cystine stones, he DOES have cystinuria.  As Dr. Henthorn said , they are working on a reliable genetic test. 

 

Danielle,  thanks for sharing all the important information.  Are you and your husband back home? 

 

Nancy S

 



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Danielle, This is good to know Now can different species breed to one another?  I believe from the info given I may be pregnant.  There is a possibility of birthing a watermelon at any moment here

Thanks Nancy, I appriciate that info.

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Don't know.  You might have to consult and agricultural expert?  Have you been eating dirt and swallowing watermelon seeds?  My mom used to say that potatoes would grow in my ears if I did not wash them.  LOL

Nancy S



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No eating dirt--LOL

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 It amazes me the number of breeders that still stud there boys out even though they are positive and have had the corrective surgery!!! They should be shot in my opinion if you have ever lost a dog to this you will understand

 

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So let's see if I have this right:

 

If you were trying to save a pedigree

 

You could breed to a dog that had a positive Cystinuria test and then several negative ones

 

You take the bitch pups and spay

 

You take the Dog pups and test them for Cystinuria and only use them if they tested OK for not having it

 

You save the Pedigree and the Bitch pups do not suffer from the disease.

 

Right?  Or Wrong?



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Nancy Serdich wrote:

"You asked if there is a way to "safely" breed an affected dog.  Dr Henthorn says: (in the article copied above) "bottom line is that the breeding of affected dogs of either gender or of carrier females will transmit mutant alleles to offspring and may produce cystinuric animals."  Some people have put forth the theory that  males will not transmit to other males , but it is a THEORY."

 

Nancy, will you please give reference to where Dr. Henthorn says this?  I was a memeber of the MCOA Cystinuria committee and have been actively interested in the study of this disease for well over 5 yrs now.  I believe you are misquoting Dr. Henthorn.  See the below exerpt from the article:

 

****• Normal female to affected male – The normal female can only contribute normal alleles to her offspring, while the affected male contributes his only X chromosome, which carries the mutant allele, to all of his daughters, and contributes his Y chromosome to his sons. Therefore, all males produced from this type of mating will be normal and ALL females produced will be CARRIERS. Important issues here are:

o Carrier and normal females are indistinguishable, so without additional information, it would not be possible to know if the normal-appearing female used for mating was normal or a carrier.
o The daughters of an affected male are obligate carriers, because all daughters get their father’s only X chromosome, which has a mutant allele in an affected male. This is a case where additional information allows us to differentiate between normal and carrier females******

It's very important to not misquote or give false information about current health research.  You bashed and trashed Cake and his owners on another board.  Cake has been responsibly bred with all of the current research in mind.  He is a health tested, veteran, championed, sweetheart of a dog. 

 

It most certainly IS possible to breed an affected male dog (and I would think it would only be considered with spectacular specimens) without passing it onto next generations, according to current, legitimate research.

 

 

 

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http://mastiff.org/exhibit-hall/health/cystine.mv

 

http://w3.vet.upenn.edu/research/centers/penngen/services/deublerlab/cystinuria.html


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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I am Glad you are back also Danielle, you are becoming the expert Science person here.

 

Webb, please do not misunderstand, I would most certainly agree that in a "Perfect" world No Cystinauria should exists.  It is a terrible disease, and the poor dogs must be rerouted to urinate.  I also know that in the effort to save a pedigree Breeders do what they must, and try hard to do it correctly without any animal suffering.  You may certainly tell us of the horrors if you would like.  This tread is to educate and understand if it is worth saving a Pedigree.  It can be done Safely, and one should not be raked over the coals for doing what they truly believe.  I have never had a Cyst dog or bitch that I know of, but have seen how awful it is.  I am sorry if you had to go thru it.

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It is difficult to tell you exactly where the paragraph was located so I copied a large section and will highlight the paragraph.  It is near the middle of the article above. 

 

o Carrier and normal females are indistinguishable, so without additional information, it would not be possible to know if the normal-appearing female used for mating was normal or a carrier.
o The daughters of an affected male are obligate carriers, because all daughters get their father’s only X chromosome, which has a mutant allele in an affected male. This is a case where additional information allows us to differentiate between normal and carrier females.

• Affected female to normal male – The affected female has only mutant alleles to contribute to her offspring, and the normal male has only normal alleles. Consequently, ALL male puppies are AFFECTED (they get their X chromosome from their mother), and ALL female offspring are CARRIERS. Remember that:

o Due to anatomical differences, unlike affected males, affected females are much less likely to form stones that will cause clinical problems, and in the absence of urine testing, are very likely to be undetected.

• Carrier female to affected male – Here, the mother contributes either a mutant allele, or a normal allele, while the father has only a mutant allele to contribute. On average, 1/2 of the daughters will be affected and 1/2 will be carriers. Of the sons, on average, 1/2 will be affected and 1/2 will be normal. Therefore, on average, 1/2 of any litter will be affected. The important issues are:

o As explained above, the 1/2 ratios are the average that would be seen from this type of mating. Within a single litter, the actual ratios will vary. Litters from this type of mating could range from containing no affected dogs to containing all affected dogs.
o Affected females can be produced, even when a disease shows X-linked inheritance.

• Affected female to affected male – All offspring will be affected. In the case of cystinuria, they may not all form stones or develop clinical signs of the disease.

o This is a good place to reiterate the additional complications present for cystinuria in particular. In the case of cystinuria, we know that there can be cystinuric dogs without uroliths, and that uroliths often form for the first time after a dog has been bred. For both of these cases, mutant alleles that are not detected in the parents are passed from parent to offspring.

The bottom line is that the breeding of affected dogs of either gender or of carrier females will transmit mutant alleles to offspring and may produce cystinuric animals. Complicating factors in making breeding decisions are the facts that we do not yet have any estimate of the rate at which dogs with excess cystine in the urine develop clinical manifestations of the disease. We do know that dogs that have had only negative NP test results have formed cystine stones. What this tells us is that, presumbably due to the variability of cystine levels in the urine, a single or even a few NP test results do not necessarily give a complete understanding of renal cystine transport in a dog.

This raises the question of how the NP test should be used. The NP test as an inexpensive screening test for detecting affected animals that are at risk of developing clinical signs due to cystine stones. At the present time, we do not believe that it detects every dog at risk for the two reasons mentioned above: 1) Not all dogs with excess cystine in the urine have high enough levels to give the positive test result and 2) because excess cystine in the urine appears to be highly variable over time. While we have quantitative amino acid analysis performed on some dogs as part of the research program, the cost of this test prohibits its routine use.

What are our cystinuria research priorities? Our primary goal is to understand the genetic basis of cystinuria in all dogs and to develop DNA-based genetic tests. This will allow breeders to preserve valuable dogs without producing affected offspring and to eliminate the mutant cystinuria alleles from all breeds. Molecular genetic, biochemical, and clinical studies of affected dogs and their relatives are necessary and ongoing. To facilitate these studies, we are undertaking the development of urine tests that are more quantitative and more sensitive, but still affordable. We are also collecting clinical and biochemical information from dogs that have formed cystine stones or have had a past positive NP test and entering some of these dogs and their relatives into our research study. Updates and requests for information from NP positive dogs will appear on our website, at httpthe situation in many breeds is much more

 

Kristen, I would not alter or misquote  a professional's research or scientific findings.  The jury is still out on the method of inheritance .  AND I certainly did NOT mention any dog's name in spite of your attempt to plant the idea that I did.

 

Nancy S



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Danielle,

 

You are so right.  It is completely wrong to put out public speculations or to name (or insinuate in a way that EVERYONE in the Mastiff community knew of the dog and owners she was bashing on another board) with disease that has ongoing research.  PRA is a prime example of this.  Before the PRA DNA test, quite a few Mastiff breeders publicly stated that PPM was the cause of PRA and that if you had PPM, you had PRA.  Some pointed the fingers at specific lines.  All of these folks were WRONG.  Thankfully, we now have the PRA DNA test that can definitively give us a yay or nay with regard to breeding.  It is the ONLY test to date for Mastiffs that has this capability. 

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Reply with quote  #17 
Kristen - do we not now also have a PPM DNA test??
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Linda,

No, there is no DNA test for PPM.  The only way to detect PPM is by CERF exam.  Same way PRA used to be detected BEFORE the Optigen PRA test.  And it has been proven that PRA and PPM are NOT related! 

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OK...I need to speak since my name ONCE AGAIN is being thrown out there.  I HAVE NOT said one negative thing about Gina.  I like her and I do not know where you get this information from.  Once again, you are spouting off stuff that you have no idea about.  IF YOU HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH ME MISS KRISTEN, YOU KNOW MY EMAIL ADDRESS SO USE IT.

 

And now, a public email started by you and Kelly is circulating trashing Gina Anelli. 


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I am sorry - I said PPM and it was in fact a new test for CMR - I don't even know what that is! I don't know why I thought it was for PPM - wishful thinking I guess.  I will have to read up on this other thing - if it is important enough to warrent finding the DNA marker for it there must be some problem with it.

 

CROSS POSTED WITH PERMISSION

 

I am pleased to announce that OptiGen has officially announced their new
CMR (Canine Multi-focal Retinopathy) DNA test that is now available to
Mastiffs. Most of us are more familiar with the description of Retinal Dysplasia
Focal/Folds.  The cost of this new test is $95 + $7.50 for the OFA
registry. We can get a 5% discount for filling out OptiGen's online submission
form and another 20% off if we participate in a 20/20 satellite clinic.

OptiGen has also announced that for all Mastiffs (from any country) that
have previously been PRA DNA tested with them, we do not need to send in
more blood.  OptiGen can use blood that they have archived from
previously tested Mastiffs regardless if we paid for long-term storage or not.
This will be a huge savings by not having to pay shipping and possible
veterinarian expenses.

CMR in Mastiffs is an autosomal recessive disease, so the gene mutation
is inherited from both the mother & father.  By utilizing OptiGen's new CMR
DNA test and by following their breeding recommendations, we can still use
dogs in our breeding programs regardless of their genetic status.  This will
allow us to eliminate the disease from our gene pool while maintaining
the positive traits that we desire.

OptiGen has posted more information and details on this new test on
their website at:

 

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_cmr.html

I would like to thank all of you that sent in blood samples on CMR
affected Mastiffs & made this test possible!!

Anna May
MCOA Health Committee Co-Chair


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Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".


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Reply with quote  #22 

Kelly,

 

Let us not forget that it was YOU that started the entire 17 day long bashing thread on this board about ME.  It wasn't the first time.  I have no problem with you except for this.  I also was made aware of the public, slanderous remarks you made about me at an AKC dog show in a large group of people (a show that I was not in attendance at).

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Is this the same Kristen that just posted about the internet being a place where so many harmful things are happening?

 

I think the internet would be a nicer place if we all tried to be part of the solution, and not falling into the trap of being part of the problem?  You?

 

Heather

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Reply with quote  #24 

It can also be due to a uterine infection I believe, and infection in the pups eyes. It is not always congenital !

 

Danielle,

 

Are you saying that PPM can be developed, and not always present at birth?  From my reading and understanding (which admittedly is not extensive on the subject), I have been under the impression that PPM is present at birth and either dissolves over time, or does not.  Is there research indicating otherwise?

 

Thanks,

Heather

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Kristen:

 

The thread that I started did not bash b/c I got it off an all breed board (Show Dogs Plus) and it had NO NAMES and it was an interesting subject to start on this board.  I am sorry that you took it personally, there was no ill intent.

 

But...I did not bash Gina and I am quite upset that you put that out there that I did and you are doing the same thing that you are accusing Nancy and my self of.


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Heather,

Yes, that is the same Kristen, and I do believe this.  However, after being publicly bashed for a very long time, and referenced by the same 2 people month after month on the Internet, and being bashed at dog shows I am not present at...a person can only take so MUCH!  Anyone that thinks they have the right to take away MY RIGHTS to enjoy this hobby is thinking incorrectly.  I kept to myself for 6 months ignoring, with the hope it would stop.  It is still going on, and I have had enough.  It's time to let the court handle it.



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"Libel by Inference."  Look it up.



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Heather, this is Kristen Dixon that has volunteered and help the Mastiff community, and has been wronged in so many ways.  If she wants to vent and explain-- let it go since you may not be aware of what is going on.  Do not participate at all in it if it bothers you.  Kristen has been thru Hell and back and deserves to say what she wants.  She has always been a part of the solution in Genetic and Health research for Mastiff.

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Kristen:

 

At dog shows I am interested in the show, not what you are doing.  And if you were not there and did not personally hear me talking, how do you know that I was talking about you??  You know what Kristen?  Don't you think that people come up to me saying you talk trash about me??  I am a big girl and let that crap roll off me b/c I did not hear it from you and I do not really care what you have to say about me.  B/c people know that we do not get along, they fuel the fire for you to post crap such as this.  So from now on Kristen, whenever people come up to me at AKC dog shows and tell me that you are talking crap about me I will post such posts on public forum to confront you like you to me?  Actually I will shrug it off like I normally do b/c this is an every show ordeal and I am over it.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #30 

Linda,

I hear there is now a test for:

 

ABC

CNBC

CBS

ESPN

CNN

QVC

 Go to fullsize image

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Kelly,

 

What you don't seem to get is that you are nothing to me.  I washed my hands of you over a year ago and never looked back.  And yet, you have started quite a few threads here and on other boards with the full intent to publicly humiliate me.  You know it.  I know it.  Everyone knows it.  Not once have I ever done this to you or to Nancy, Kelly.  The two of you have stopped at nothing to attempt to discredit me, drag my name and my dogs names through the mud.

 

I have not been to a dog show since June of 2006, and it was the ONLY 2006 show I attended.  At the 2006 Old Dominion Kennel Club Show, you stood in front of a large group of people and announced something that I won't repeat.  I was home raising my Homer and Bling babies.  I got a phone call from someone that attended that dog show, that I had not spoken to in a very long time (just lost touch) that had NO knowledge of the problems you and I had.  This person called me out of concern because of what had been done and said.  What you did was against AKC Rules, MCOA Rules, and just plain awful.  This person is willing to go the length to file AKC and MCOA charges against you as a witness.  I prefer to not take it that far, but if you want to continue on with this nonsense, you will leave me no choice.  Need I remind you that I was your MCOA Sponsor and came very close to revoking my sponsorship of you?  I didn't.  I decided to let it go.  However, you have come after me time and time again on all kinds of message boards.  I ask you to find one thread or post I have made making any kind of reference to you within the the past year.  I have MANY from you and Nancy.  It's as if you two have made it your mission to destroy me and my reputation.  Ignoring has not worked.  Months ago, I wrote you privately and told you to stop.  That was the one and only time you have heard from me.  And it has continued.  You and Nancy have left me no choice but to publicly ask you to stop.  Kelly, my name was not in those mass emails about Gina Anelli.  Yours and Nancy's were.  Your apology should be directed toward Gina.  I'll stand in line.

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Reply with quote  #32 

Kristen,

 

I was once called the greatest living mastiff historian in North America and 5 minutes later on another forum, I was called a failed breeder who never bred a champion..............LOL

 

I've learned not to listen to either view! I suggest you do the same!

 

The more successful you become in mastiffs, the greater the intensity of resentment by some! Let it roll off your back!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #33 

I guess I just cannot comprehend that you would let a small minority affect your decisions and choices about showing and doing things with your dogs.  Again, I think that this breed does need people to continue to engage in REAL Mastiff activities - the human component is essential - and the internet (like Steve said) is certainly a double edged sword. 

 

The internet is a nice place to share and discuss, but I place a far greater value on the interaction between my dogs and I, and going out and being able to enjoy activities with them.  They love going to the groomer, they enjoy trips to the store and the park, walks around the neighborhood and rides in the car.  Shows are fun for me, and I value the Mastiff friends I have made these past several years.  I guess I just would not choose to let a few people stand in the way of something I love. 

 

Heather

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Reply with quote  #34 

Kristen:

 

I did NOT talk about Gina period.  As for the Old Dominion Show, I would really like to know who said ANYTHING about me b/c I was actually outside of the tent with my husband and Joe.  So it is pretty funny that since I was not under the tent with a lot of people that I would be announcing amongst the crowd stuff about you.  At no time do I remember your name coming up about you so I dont know how you would get that information.  Period.    I DO have emails from other people from you that talk about me Kristen so save your holier than tho attitude. 


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Reply with quote  #35 

I believe this thread is going well, LOL  Can't wait for Danielle's PPM/PRA one and of course my Addisson's disease one.  ROFLMAO

 

So could eating eggs cause Cystinuria?



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Reply with quote  #36 

Kelly,

 

I did not bring out the personal issues you and I have with another.  You did.  I merely stated a fact - a mass, nasty email going around about Gina with 2 names on it. 

 

But, you want to continue the conversation.  Here we go.  Kelly and I did a breeding together in November of 2005.  Things didn't go so well.  I said some rather harsh things to Kelly.  I later apologized to Kelly.  She apparently has never gotten over it (as noted by the various public postings she's made with reference to me with the intent to humiliate me).  It has seemed apparent that Kelly and Nancy have gained great satisfaction in watching my public and private suffering at their hand. 

 

So Kelly, did I leave anything out? 

 

Now, I will say to you, here on this public forum.  Kelly, I am sorry for hurting your feelings during our phone conversation regarding the Sinatra and Bella breeding that went awry.  I'm sure we both learned some things from the experience with regard to veterinary reproductive medicine and in dealing with people different from ourselves.  YOU HAVE MY APOLOGY.  I told you then that I would not deal with you again with regard to breeding, but that does not mean that I have some personal vendetta or hatred toward you the way you have me.  I am publicly asking you to STOP with the public personal attacks.

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #37 

Go to fullsize image 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MastiffResQ

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Reply with quote  #38 

Kristen:

 

Thank you for your apology.  We are now dropping the hatred.

 

Please forward me the email privately to MastiffResQ@aol.com where I was supposed to have said something about Gina.


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Reply with quote  #39 

Kelly,

 

I do not (thankfully!) have a copy of the email.  I spoke to Gina by telephone today.  She mentioned that the hatred in the email was spoken by Nancy S. and Kelly.  I have know idea if that Kelly was you or another Kelly.  You jumped to that conclusion.

 

I am happy that you have finally accepted my apology.  It was sincere in 2005 and is sincere now.  Onto better things.

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Reply with quote  #40 

Yes,  there are several Kellys   Most importantly, I emailed Gina and she knows that it was not me that wrote about her.  I do like Gina very much...she does a lot for our breed and would never speak ill of her.


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Reply with quote  #41 

Hi ,

I dont feel any mastiff known to have cystinuria, should be bred .And it seems more and more lines are showing up with this ugly painfull gentic dease.

 

you all should jon the cystinuria list .

to see how the owners of these dogs pay up to 600.00 a month or more to keep them going .

 

because of the love they have for these poor guys .

 

so for those that feel its ok to breed a dog with cystinuria . Should join the list ,to see what your putting the owners as well as the mastiffs through .

 

We truly dont know enough about this illness .

everything is in theory .

 

 

 

 you are not doing the breed any justice .there are plenty of good typy mastiffs out there ,with out adding this to the beed

 

Marge



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Reply with quote  #42 

I believe I read testing on a young pup is no guarantee.  So do you recomend we all test on 8 week old pups?  If the female is the carrier how do you know?  If it was to save a pedigree as "Key" words is it appropriate?  I have to agree that if you know your dog or bitch has Cystinruria you should not breed, but to save a pedigree is it worth it?  When does this disease really show it's ugly head? 



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Reply with quote  #43 

Hi Marge,

 

You are so right.  Cystinuria is an awful disease.  As you know, I have boys from my first litter that have suffered Cystinuria-like symptoms.  We lost one to renal failure.  We have tested them annually through UPENN and they are always negative.  Each one has been ultrasounded repeatedly (in fact, one of the two remaining boys, now age 6, was just ultrasounded/catheterized again and again - no stones or grit).  So, even though I don't own any positive/affected dogs, I am very sympothetic to it, and very much support testing for it, and the research involved.  As you know the Mastiffs have been rather mysterious with the mode of inheritence...this should not surprise us.  Mastiffs do everything differently, it seems.  With the current theory, if you have a dog whose entire line depends on him, and the dog is beautiful, typey, sound, healthy, great temperament....I think it is perfectly responsible to breed this dog (male), knowing that bitch offspring will be spayed.  I also know that the current test is not sensitive enough to be trusted.  In reality, we should probably all be testing our guys annually with the current test.  I admit I have not done this, but every dog in my household is tested, and I will continue to test.  And as you know, there is the possibility of false results with the current test....my hat goes off to the breeder and the owners of this dog that have been honest and forthcoming about the one pos. test (and other subsequent neg tests).  I have great respect for them all.



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Reply with quote  #44 

Deborah,

 

I have yet to hear of a young male Mastiff puppy testing positive on the current test.  If a dog is tested under 18 months of age, UPENN recommends they be retested as an adult.  I have been testing my guys almost annually (males only since the test does not pick up bitch carriers).  I test my bitches once and submit to UPENN to contribute to their ongoing research.  Until there is a better test, or perhaps a gene marker, this is all we can do.



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Reply with quote  #45 

Some of us wonder about the dogs that test positive but are completely a-symptomatic, and never show stones in u.s. or grit during catheterization.  Are these dogs affected dogs?  Or are they carriers?  Or are they false positives?  My personal belief is....we need a more accurate test (and UPENN has been working on this!).  In the meantime, we can educate ourselves, make educated breeding decisions, and after that...cross our fingers and pray for the best. 

medievalmastiff

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Reply with quote  #46 

The first boy out of the original breeding did not show any symptoms until he was over 4 years old. He ended up having surgery, not once but twice.   At that point the boy that was out of the first boys littermate sister was tested and he was only between 14 and 16 months.  He has shown no symptoms.

Deb, you can not tell if a bitch is a carrier until she produces a positive male.  To me that means if she has affected littermate brothers I would have to assume she is a carrier.  Why take the chance of continuing on with this disease.  It is painful for the boys and it cost the owners $1000's of dollars for surgery, meds, and continued check-ups.  It can pop up down the line, so by saving a pedigree you might just be pushing the cystinuria gene further down the lines for others to deal with and wonder where it came from.



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Reply with quote  #47 

EGGS??????????????????????????????????



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Reply with quote  #48 

EGGS??????????????????????????????????


Scrambled, please.



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Reply with quote  #49 

Let me get this right--no gray matter here, just black and white:

 

If there is a bitch from a Father or a brother that has Cyst--DO NOT BREED HER

 

If there is a Dog from a Father that has Cyst--If you test him and he is CLEAR--You MAY BREED HIM



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Reply with quote  #50 

Let me get this right--no gray matter here, just black and white:

 

***Deb, I don't think this is a black/white issue b/c we don't have definitive answers on the disease yet.

 

If there is a bitch from a Father or a brother that has Cyst--DO NOT BREED HER

 

***I have heard this is recommended.   However, what about the dog that tests positive once and tests negative a bunch of other times, and is negative for stones/grit on u.s./catheterization?  Do you assume it is a false pos. or do you wipe out all of this dog's sisters and daughters from a breeding program?  Also, it is believed that daughters or sisters from an affected dog can be carriers....but we have no way of knowing WHICH ONES are carriers.  So again...judgment call.

 

If there is a Dog from a Father that has Cyst--If you test him and he is CLEAR--You MAY BREED HIM

***This is what I understand.

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