This Forum is brought to you by The Mastiff Sweet Spot and Friends of the Forum.
Register Calendar
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 4 of 6      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   6   Next
slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #151 

Hi Steve.

 

 

My life has also been touched by Cancer.

I lost my Husband two years ago to Brain And lung Cancer .

 

A lot of people have people close to them that have had or died of this horrible illness .

 

 

But i still dont feel ,that a drug should

 

be manditory .

 

How many pepople know that smoking is the largest cause to many Cancers.Are allpeople giving it up?

 

Of course,

  Not then Adults are crying we are messing with thier rights :>)

 

So since kids or thier parents dont have rights ,in this.  Really ticks me off :>)it should be up to the parents weather to give or not to give .

 

Goverment has always helped in the money for low income people to get vaccines .

 

But I dont go for Goverment saying we have to do this or that .

 

Whatever happened to free choices ?

 

 

 

Hugs marge

 

 

 

 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #152 
My father is fighting brain and lung cancer, two aunts have been fighting breast cancer, one fighting skin cancer and I have lost two aunts to lung cancer (yes we are a huge family).
One vaccine will not save us - the way we live is killing people. Has anyone ever thought of how many hormones go into cows milk? Tell me there is not a correlation to breast cancer? Dairy, tobacco, automotive etc. lobby groups are what comes first. This is a rather large subject and takes away from the main topic. Did you know that the lungs of an urban non-smoker look just like a non-urban smokers. That's the industrial revolution for you. And I would not give one drop of trust in any drug and/or pharmaceutical company.
simplifyit

Registered:
Posts: 547
Reply with quote  #153 

i don't have any children but i am a cervical cancer survivor.

 

there were women in the ward with no sexual experience, so while it is more prevalent in women who have had sex, you don't have to have sex to get cervical cancer. 

 

i may die from the side affects because they hack the heck out of you (the surgery is not a simple hysterectomy) and i have residual nerve damage that affects just about everything below my stomach and affects my life to some degree.  i light up like a christmas tree on an xray because i have about 60 staples inside me.

 

and yes, some child may get sick, it may affect some child's ability to reproduce, but if it saves more women from cervical cancer then maybe it's not so bad.

 

re: reproduction, cervical cancer is the ultimate birth control.  if it's found early enough your uterus is removed.  if not, you probably die and if you don't die you certainly won't get pregnant after the radiation treatments. 

------

i titer my dogs.  but if one of them needs a distemper vaccine, then she's going to get vaccinated.

 

i spent a lot of time ripping up old dog magazines and there was a huge sigh of relief in the dog world when the distemper vaccine became available.  distemper used to wipe out entire kennels or all the family pets in a neighborhood.  it was horrible and tragic and i cannot believe we would want to go back to that.

 

i am careful about over-vaccinating but in the long run i believe most vaccines do more good than harm.  it's tragic for everyone who is adversely affected by them and some people and dogs are.  but i believe it's worse when we don't have them.

---------------

if i had a daughter, i'd get her vaccinated.

 

like the rest of my cancer-ridden family (pick a type of cancer and i probably have a relative who had it), i had a very aggressive form.  had i gotten my pap test maybe 2 months later, it would have spread and i would have needed radiation and maybe chemo.  all i had was the surgery, which sucked, but at least i wasn't poisoned on top of it.

 

don't forget to get your pap test!!!!!

 

v

 

 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #154 

Steve, they are 50% of the problem, they are involved in the transmission.

Why only vaccinate the girls, and ignore the "vectors" if you will,  if we really want to eradicate those strains of HPV, then everyone should be vaccinated. Isn't that the theory behind vaccinating healthy people who can fight the flu, with the flu vaccine.....so they don't infect the immune compromised.

olga

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,875
Reply with quote  #155 

Danielle,

 

I'm not "crying out" for sympathy as you put it. I wanted you to know that I've had experience with the disease and also other involvements on the research side.

 

If you can't fathom how some people can spit & chew gum at the same time during their lifetime, what can I say!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #156 

Hi everyone :>)

Please know  Iam so sorry for everyone that has had a loved one with Cancer and have lost them to cancer .

 

 

I just feel we should have our own choices .

And its not up to any Goverment to make them for us .Or our Familys :>)

 

After all isnt this the land of the free ??:>)

 

As for the Dogs and Vaccines ,i do use Vaccines but very few .And i also use titers to see if and when they will need another .

 

Maybe we should get back to the dogs :>)

 

Hugs Marg e

 

 

 

 

slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #157 

V,

Im sorry you went through the ,Cancer ,but so very happy you beat it .

And wil be with us for a very long time

 

Hugs

Marge

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,875
Reply with quote  #158 

Marge,

 

It's the land of the free, but it's also the home of the brave!

 

Somebody that's walking about with the plague, will not be walking freely about for long, in a society that is designed to protect the innocent & masses from harm.

 

Although cervical cancer is not transmittable from female to female (* unless you're of a different leaning ; ; ) it is still a matter of protecting the innocent, even from parents who might be sincere, but might also be clueless!

 

This is my opinion and if the vaccine proves to be effective and side affect free, I see no reason to prevent the state from stepping in and saving young girl's lives!

 

What say you!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LindaGreesonRice

Avatar / Picture

Board Owner
Registered:
Posts: 7,867
Reply with quote  #159 

What happened to the subject matter here? - CYSTINURIA - ??


__________________
Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,875
Reply with quote  #160 

I have no clue Linda!

 

Perhaps we need to ask the Saints!...LOL


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #161 

This is my opinion and if the vaccine proves to be effective and side affect free, I see no reason to prevent the state from stepping in and saving young girl's lives!

 

What say you!

HI

I say there is no proof that it will be safe for every woman or girl.

 

Its a wait and see thing ,do you know the governor thats pushing this vaccine has stock in the company .

Im thinking also hes on the board ????

 

I heard

 this a few weeks ago on the view .

 

So if this vaccines cause a life long problem with my daughter .He still makes money !!!

 

Think about this ,here is is the Governor ,then makes it manditory that every young Girl should get this vaccine .

 

So the state coughs up the money ,for the vaccines .

 

Hmmm my kid could be at risk here .

And i dont have a choice in the matter ???? NOT!!!

 

 

Boy we sure did get off subject HAHAHAHA

Sorry linda :>)
 

Marge

 

I still want a choice in the say so of my kids .:>)and i also feel maybe they should start finding these things for Men and Boys to take :>)

 

Its time they started thinking on the terms of Men and Boys  also cause pregnancy HAHAHAHA

 

 

Marge.

 

Maybe if they made in manditory

 for Men to use protection .

 

we would no longer need the vaccine or the pill :>)

Thats what i say HAHAHAHA



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #162 

Don't worry Marge it will not pass in Texas.  It was a misguided idea of the best intent.  People do not like to be told what to do.  Did you know Polio, Whooping cough, Small pox all on the rise again.  You can not regulate morality, or anything else without someone feeling their rights are being abused.  Each person needs to make their own decisions for their own lives.

 

Now back to the dogs--What signs would you notice to give you an idea that your dog might have Cystinura?  Does your dog act like it has a bladder infection, or does it pee too much?  Any signs?  Fever?  Would some signs fool you into thinking it is something else?

 

Also on the Sex Part--how could the dog actually have sex or collect?  Would it be only in the early stages of Cyst that you could do this, certainly never after a re-rout I would think. 

simplifyit

Registered:
Posts: 547
Reply with quote  #163 

thanks marge - it was a long time ago and i've been ok for years :-)

 

 

you wrote:

"I just feel we should have our own choices .

And its not up to any Goverment to make them for us .Or our Familys :>)

 

After all isnt this the land of the free ??:>)"

 

and that's just fine, only if that's how you feel, don't expect my tax dollars to finance your cervical cancer surgery ;-)

 

v

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #164 

A long, long time ago, Deb posted a sensible set of questons:

 

There is NO nutrition reason that causes this, it is only Genetic

 

Right.  In fact, the majority of the owners of stone-forming dogs on the Cystinuria LIST feel that diet has NO effect, except that changing pH can cause OTHER kinds of stones to form.  More stones = more pain.

 

There is a test that is questionable, but is is better than nothing , and a new one is being worked on

 

Right. 

 

Testing should be done after one year for more accuracy not to consider the animal clear at 8 weeks old

 

Right.  MANY stone formers, IF they were tested as puppies, tested negative.  Cake tested negative at 4 months old or I would never have sold him, much less unlimited.  Then a couple of months later, formed CYSTINE sediment and failed the NP test.

 

Cost to affect dog is tremendous in Pain, special foods, Vet bills, operations

 

Right.  Except see comment above about special diets - they may not help and sometimes cause new problems. 

 

Most people pay several thousand in surgeries, which if done on an emergency basis are EXTREMELY life threatening.  Yet most people don't realize their dog has stones till they block (usually at night or on a weekend).  And CYSTINE DOES NOT SHOW UP ON X-RAY OR SONOGRAM!!!!!

 

The surgical site also bleeds a LOT, so recovery is a NIGHTMARE.  In the scrotal urethrostomy (most effective at allowing the male to pass stones while they are still small) the scrotum and testicles are REMOVED and the opening for urination is made where they used to be. 

 

The medication is an orphan drug, which means that besides being hard to get, sometimes even the HUMANS who depend on it cannot get it!!!

 

Females do not seem to suffer

 

NO female mastiff (or deerhound, or bulldog or azawakh or bullmastiff, etc.) has tested positive except the one false positive mastiff female years ago who WAS taking antibiotics (owner must not have read all the directions).  When she was re-tested without antibiotics, she was clear. 

 

My Stella, Cake's mother, has a positive sire AND positive litter brother, meaning her mother HAD to be a carrier (though it was many years later that we figured that out). 

 

Stella had the 50% chance of being an astronomically rare female positive, but was negative.  Dr H was disappointed Stella wasn't positive, because genetic comparisons of C+ males and a C+ FEMALE would make it MUCH easier to find the gene(s) at long last. 

 

So, TEST YOUR FEMALES!!!  If your female forms stones, DO have them tested by UPenn, stones can contain LAYERS and if a layer is cystine, we may yet find our positive female who could help FINALLY find the gene.

 

Carriers are NOT affected. 

It's their sons and grandsons who are.

 

Females have no test so must look at father or brothers and if they have this --SPAY All Bitches in that litter and MOM 

 

If a female has a positive litter brother, she has a 50% chance of being a carrier. 

 

Their MOTHER was the source.  Definitely spay their mom. 

 

The daughters of a carrier (female) have a 50% chance of being a carrier because their mom has TWO X chromosomes, and only ONE is C+, so half the daughters get a clean X from mom, and the other half get the C+ (carrier) version. 

 

And dammit, we can't tell who is carrying the potential for devastating disease and who isn't.

 

If the sister of the positive male is young, I would keep her and wait for the DNA test, but not breed her till there is a way to tell if she is a carrier able to pass the gene to her sons.

 

ALL daughters of a positive SIRE are 100% carriers. 

 

The gene is carried on the X chromosome, and the reason they are female is because the positive sire gave his X gene to them, that's what made them girls (and all he had to GIVE them was a positive or C+ chromosome).  If he had given his unaffected Y gene, the puppy would be male.  (BTW, there has NEVER been a y-linked disease, the y chromosome is so tiny, all it does is make balls and willies.)

 

There is no clear evidence that states how it is sex linked in Mastiffs only Newfs

 

NOT right. 

 

The form of the disease in newfs is GENETICALLY DIFFERENT and affects BOTH sexes and is so severe, urine tests at weaning age are accurate.  The newf form is NOT sex linked, it is a simple recessive.

 

Mastiffs and deerhounds that form stones AND test positive on the urine test were tested with the Newf DNA test, and even though they ARE positive by BOTH tests, they did not test positive for the NEWF FORM of the disease.  Doesn't mean they don't have the disease, just that they have a genetically different form of it. 

 

There are THREE forms of cystinuria in humans, each with different genetics.  It might be that complicated in dogs too.

 

There is NO evidence of ANY positive female in the breeds affected by the form of the disease that mastiffs, bulldogs, bullmastiffs, Scottish deerhounds, and even azawakh have. 

 

The absence of affected females in the breeds that have this form of the  disease is pretty strong evidence that it IS x-linked.

 

Any dog that gets even a false positive, should be considered having Cyst and all precautions should be taken as if it were Cyst so as not to pass it on, including the Mother and sisters

 

Except if a dog was on a very specific type of antibiotic when the urine sample was taken, it was not a FALSE positive. 

 

When a dog is much loved and SEEMS healthy, wishful thinking gets pretty strong. 

 

Unfortunately, wishful thinking is how people talk themselves into breedings that will produce dogs that SUFFER, several generations later.  It's damn selfish to dump the risk on innocent dogs and buyers in the future. 

 

There's STILL no cure for the common cold, how can we be confident THIS disease will be solved??

 

There are virtually NO false positives, but a LOT of false negatives. 

 

If a dog tests positive, the odds are pretty overwhelming that he DOES have the disease.  This means his mother IS a carrier and CAN pass it along (and maybe a worse degree of it) if bred again.  

 

HALF a positive male's full sisters ARE carriers who will produce positive sons and carrier daughters, but we have NO way identify a carrier. 

 

Angels fear to tread in the breeding of a positive male's sisters. 

 

My Cake sister Celeste is 6 and has never had a litter.  Do you think I wouldn't gladly give my left tit --without anesthesia-- for (healthy) puppies out of her?  Hell, both tits.  With a chain saw.  But even that would not make her not be a possible carrier.

 

If you choose to breed the Cyst dog --there is a safe way of doing it as far as we know right now

 

Right. 

 

Find a female who has no family history of urinary problems (dig deep and call EVERYONE with a related dog, especially uncles and the brothers of the grandparents, because people forget even if they are honest, or they might never have been diagnosed but still had the gene, it takes a LOT of digging to learn much about a pedigree). 

 

What you want is a healthy, fully-tested bitch who has had litters before (ideally with males not related to yours) and produced NO positive sons in any of them.  She is less likely to be a carrier than an unproven female with no sons available to be tested. 

 

If she is a good match for pedigree, type, and health clearances in every other way, breed her to the positive male, and SPAY ALL THEIR DAUGHTERS, because 100% of the daughters of a positive male ARE CARRIERS.  Being a carrier does NOT affect their health, so the girls can be healthy PETS and live great lives, so they lose nothing by having a positive sire.  Except a uterus.  Which they will never miss.

 

The sons will be 100 FREE of Cystinuria unless Mom was a carrier after all.  Without a DNA test to identify carriers, with a test that doesn't reliably identify all positives, the mother is what makes ANY breeding a crapshoot.

 

There is no safe way to breed a Female that is a carrier, but how would you know she is a carrier--no test--just father and brothers and sons tell on them

 

See above. 

 

If her father is positive she IS a carrier, no way around it. 

 

If her brother is positive, she has a 50% chance to be a carrier.  (If you really WANT her to be the 50% that is OK, that SOB Murphy enforces his law double-time, and she WILL be a carrier.) 

 

If she has a son that is positive, she IS a carrier.

 

Any Breeder that does breed the cyst male needs to have all info, and feel confident in caring for all pups from the litter as that is each breeder's responsibility anyway

 

Unless a positive male is the ONLY one with that pedigree or certain traits, DON'T BREED HIM.  Use his sire, paternal uncle, or fully tested and cystinuria free brother (not a nephew out of any of his sisters, though!)  If you DO breed him, take EVERY precaution listed in this post.  NO shortcuts.

 

Anyone with a positive male they just "have to" breed is morally responsible to do several things.

 

1.  REQUIRE the bitch owner go to the Cystinuria list to ask advice from a large group of people who have spent YEARS dealing RESPONSIBLY with an affected male. 

 

2.  Make the bitch owner sign a statement stating they have researched the disease and understand that ALL daughters of a positive male WILL BE CARRIERS. 

 

3.  Make them sign that if any males are positive in the litter, they understand it could only come from THEIR BITCH and not the dog.

 

4.  REQUIRE the bitch owner to sign beside the wording in the contract that says  ALL DAUGHTERS of this male will be SPAYED NO LATER than age 6 months (to prevent accidents, on purpose or otherwise). (No matter HOW gorgeous they turn out.)  All daughters to be on limited registration or not registered.

 

 DO NOT allow the breeding to take place unless the bitch owner signs and initials the contract requiring all the above, with the extra incentive of a hefty liquidated damages clause if they fail to honor the terms. 

 

NO EXCUSES. 

 

People can talk themselves into the most ungodly bullshit when they really, Really REALLY WANT something. 

 

If it was the BREEDERS who got the stones (or any other hereditary problem people BS themselves about in their dogs), believe me, things would be VERY different!!!

 

Don't buy excuses, not from yourself, not from anyone else.

 

The sons of this breeding (postive male and apparent non-carrier dam) STILL need to be tested repeatedly like any other males in the breed SHOULD be.  Just in case Mom was a carrier after all, and previous positive sons just happened to slip under the radar of that sadly ineffective NP urine test. 

 

It will happen, count on that.  NOTHING is foolproof.  But it will happen less to people who take every known precaution, and don't BS themselves or anyone else.

 

Questions???

 

  

 


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #165 

Signs to look for that the dog displays -- that would make you suspect the dog has a problem? 

slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #166 

Laurie,

Great post i hope everyone will print it and keep it

So they can reread it .

 

Marge

 

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #167 

Deb asked about signs.

 

Why WAIT for signs?  Test all your dogs NOW (unless they are on an antibiotic.) 

 

Test your females too!  We NEED to find a true positive female, and the ONLY way we will find her is by urine test.  Even positive newf females are rarely as much affected as males because females have a much wider urinary tract to let stones out.  

 

What you get may not be a definitive answer (unless it is a positive urine test with no antibiotics), but we don't HAVE the luxury of definitive answers yet. 

 

You need to try and KEEP TRYING to find out the status of your dogs.  Only if a LOT of people care enough to test ALL their dogs, and do it REGULARLY, will we eventually find the piece of the puzzle that allows the researchers to create a DNA test.

 

Really STUDY the directions for how long after a meal to test,

and test all your dogs correctly.  (I have been testing my dogs for as long as we have even known the disease EXISTED in mastiffs, and I always look it up, I NEVER assume I remember it right.)

 

If ANY dog related to yours is positive, more thorought testing may be in order.  Collect EVERY urine from your dog for 24 hours (I would not combine the samples, in case only one shows just a little, I would not want to dilute it.  Just use different containers.)  Label each specimen with the dog's name, date, and amount of time since the last meal, and send them ALL (last I heard Penn would not charge extra to have more data).

 

Check the form, and make sure you check all the right boxes, if you don't do it right, then you get the info, but it cannot be used anonymously in the study, and the study NEEDS DATA!!!!

 

Signs may be UTIs or occasional slight to severe urinary blockage.  Frequent urination, or a slow or uneven stream. 

 

Because Mastiffs are so da#^ stoic, collect your dog's urine once in a while just to check if it is clear, cloudy, or if there is any color that doesn't belong in it (especially pink). 

 

If the urine is cloudy, smells odd, or has even a tinge of pink or any shade other than normal yellow, take the dog to the vet ASAP.

 

UTIs cause a chemically different kind of stone than cystine to form, BUT once a body is used to forming stones, it tends to form stones again when under stress.  Just like once you get an allergy, you are more likely to form new ones. 

 

So don't let your dog get a UTI or have one for a while undiagnosed, because it can easily trigger stones, which can then make the UTIs chronic.  Chronic UTIs suck the energy out of a body.  They take away the resistance to other problems.  Even if your dogs are cystinuria free, ALWAYS watch for evidence of UTIs.

 

ALL urinary stones are extremely painful, ask anyone who has passed one.  Most people who have passed a kidney stone would rather give birth to a full term baby through their nose.

 

So watch ALL mastiffs of BOTH sexes for ANY evidence of UTIs.  If a UTI is diagnosed, BEFORE it is treated, make sure the vet sends off the urine for a culture and sensitivity, to make sure the RIGHT med is being used. 

 

It's MUCH cheaper to do the C&S and maybe have to change meds than to give a course of antibiotics that turns out not to help and allows the dog to get a lot worse.

 

If your dog has a UTI and is treated, RETEST him or her a few weeks after the meds are done, to make SURE it was all cleared up.  Chronic UTIs are hard on a body.

 

So, test EVERYBODY (but follow the directions on the form, and check al the right stuff on the form too!), and then regularly check your dogs for UTIs by checking the color and clarity of their urine, keep an eye on whether they are drinking more than usual, etc.

 

I won't say it's easy, but it is simple!


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #168 

Laurie,

 

I'm confused about the ultrasounding.  At one point I heard that ultrasounding would not show cystine stones, and then later heard that it would.  I believe when I spoke to Dr. Giger a few years ago that he said they would show on ultrasound.  The two boys of mine I spoke of were ultrasounded repeatedly, and each once with a color doplar sonogram.  Would this not show cystine stones?  Is there any literature out there to reflect this?  Thank you.

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #169 

Kristen,

 

I know people who performed an ultrasound on their dog to make sure he was not re-forming stones after life-threatening and extremely major surgery for stones.  The ultrasound showed NOTHING, but less than a week later, the dog blocked and was found to be FULL of stones.  Their vets (and I) do not believe it is possible to form that many large stones in a week.

 

I know other people who had similar experiences.  They were told that x-rays pass right through cystine stones, so they tried ultrasound instead, and found NOTHING, but the dog blocked and was full of stones in a very short time (days or weeks). 

 

Some folks HAVE found stones using ultrasound.  So sometimes it works, but I would not consider it a definitive test because it has missed LARGE amounts of stones in some dogs.  Not reliable enough for me.

 

Either those dogs formed many stones including LARGE ones (which usually take time to build up, like the stalagtites and stalagmites in caves) so fast they couldn't have been doing anything else, or the ultrasound MISSED a LARGE amount of stones including big ones. 

 

Cystine is an amino acid and part of the necessary building blocks of life, maybe it doesn't show up because it can't be told apart from tissue?

 

A vet at UC Davis said the only way to find cystine stones is by filtering urine for sediment or opening the bladder to LOOK, or both. 

 

(I am a sneaky mom, even though I don't even drink coffee, I buy coffee filters, I get my boy to pee into one every once in a while, and if there is any sediment, it stays in the filter and can be seen.  Also, taken to a laboratory to be tested to see what KIND of sediment it is....)

 

Hey, if we could TELL for sure, without surgery, it would be EASY.

 

I hope they are busting their butts on the challenge test.  It seems like our best chance of an accurate diagnostic.  Although we REALLY need the DNA test to identify CARRIERS and the so-far HIDDEN POSITIVES.

 

This has been going on for 7 or 8 years now!!!!!  Time for meaningful RESULTS.

 

Frustratedly, 


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #170 

You can bet I am printing all this Great Info--I can not express how much I, and everyone should appreciate this Laurie.  I understand now, and see why there is a need to test. 

 

With the ability to get semen from so many dogs, from so many people--one never knows what may be lurking in the background, and the need to find a way to stop this.  I see why the breeder needs to catch the urine--the amount of times during a 24 hour period. 

 

The doubting Tom in me is gone on this subject.  I shall be yelling a lot in the next few weeks about stop pissing in the wind.....................just to the dogs.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #171 

Thank you, Laurie, for your explanation of ultrasounding, and also the coffee filter idea.  I had never heard about the filter, but I will definately be trying this method out with Louie the next time we test him (he is one of 3 in my 1st litter that has urinary straining and repeated negative Cystinuria tests/ultrasoounds).  I feel your frustration!  We do need results (ie. the new test).  Great information shared here. 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #172 

OMG, thanks Kristen for reminding about the filter---I am going to test the hubby.  Seems men have a few problems also.  This should be interesting since he can't hit the huge pot we have.  A small coffee filter "should hold" some fun for the weekend. 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #173 

My Man is a Genius like he keeps telling me--he said he could use a thimble and then pour it into the filter --NO MESS!  The things ya learn.

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,875
Reply with quote  #174 

This thread is.................

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #175 

Stop filtering your humor in on every subject--This is a stream of good advice! LOL

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,875
Reply with quote  #176 

I can tell that you are percolating this morning and putting me through the grinder! I may move to Java!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #177 

vet at UC Davis said the only way to find cystine stones is by filtering urine for sediment or opening the bladder to LOOK, or both.

 

Good Morning everyone :>)

Laurie do you think if the bladder was scoped ,they would find stones ?

 

Marge



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #178 

I believe on a personal note, I will stick to the filter. 

 

I understand the lab is taking blood samples also.

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #179 

I do not know if anyone has used a scope.  If they have, a dye contrast would probably help the s3ediment or stones to show up.

 

Has anyone asked the vets at Penn what diagnostics will help besides the flawed NP test???

 


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007
mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #180 

What we NEED for the sake of ALL dogs (since we don't know all the positives and REALLY can't identify carriers) is to FIND FEMALES out of a positive and a carrier.  They offer the best chance of identifying the DNA that can help Penn FINALLY develop a test. 

 

So, TEST YOUR FEMALES. Especially if they have a father or brother who has EVER tested positive.  Make SURE you provide ALL family history (even suspicions or rumors) when you send the urine in.

 

Oh, and when I said a positive dog should not be bred unless he was unique, I MEANT that AT MOST, he should be used ONLY a COUPLE of times, and ONLY  on bitches the dog owner can be sure will be controlled RESPONSIBLY, and ONLY to make sons to carry on in his PLACE and all daughters spayed.  

 

Because if his daughters are bred, they ARE carriers, and WILL produce positive sons.  And there is NO way to know WHICH positive grandsons will suffer HORRIBLY. 

 

One in six known positives DOES develop stones, sometimes repeatedly, and stone forming being rare doesn't mean jack to you if it is YOUR beautiful boy suffering and needing incredible amounts of money just to keep him alive. 

 

The average cost of $3,000-10,000 in the first year plus $600-800 a MONTH in medication is bad enough to wipe out just about anyone.

 

There is NO moral or responsible reason for a positive male to be used more than three or four times in his entire lifetime, (to produce sons free of the disease to go forward with, IF that male is your own line that YOU bred, and the ONLY way you have to go forward).   If you bought him, he isn't even your own line, there's no rational reason to breed him at all. 

 

Using a positive male more than a couple of closely controlled times in his lifetime is NOT RESPONSIBLE.  Period. 

 

If the owner of the male is in denial and pretending the false negative results MEAN something (get on Christie Keith's list and find out what those false negative results are worth!!!), don't get sucked in by their wishful thinking and desire for more big bucks stud fees.

 

(So far, I have never heard of an ugly dog or one with a crap pedigree to have this disease.)

 

BE SMARTER AND MORE RESPONSIBLE THAN THAT DOG OWNER. 

 

If someone is OFFERING a positive male, that pretty boy is a worm on a hook.  Ignore the worm, there are healthier worms out there.  Do you REALLY want to bite that hook? 

 

If the owner is in denial, they need to grow up and GET OVER IT before they spread harm throughout the breed, because if you have a descendant of that dog, you love your dog, your dog is AT RISK because of THEIR denial. 

 

One positive dog I know about had sired THIRTEEN litters by age four and a half.  Even though his owner had PROMISED to ONLY breed him once or twice to her own owned and co-owned bitches, to get something SAFE to go forward with.

 

Breeding a positive male more than a three or four times (to produce sons to carry on his genes) is NOT RESPONSIBLE.  The more litters on the ground, the greater the risk of some bitch owners not being responsible with the carrier daughters.

 

People who have a bitch should AVOID breeding to a positive male.  If they really REALLY want that line, use one of his best SONS instead.  Unless the positive male was bred to an unidentified carrier, the SONS of a positive male are a much safer bet.

 

This is a REAL disease that causes some of the WORST SUFFERING of any disease known in dogs, and you CANNOT tell which positive males will be symptom free and which ones will suffer badly.  

 

But ALL DAUGHTERS OF A POSITIVE MALE ARE CARRIERS, and therefore some of the carrier's sons WILL BE POSITIVE. 

 

If you breed to a positive dog and do not spay ALL his daughters, YOU ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PASSING ON A CRUEL DISEASE to future generations.

 

Are you the kind of person who doesn't mind if a dog suffers horribly and breaks his owner's bank, as long as your name isn't on it?  There are more breeders out there like that than you would like to believe, and most of them are REAL good at acting innocent and sweet.

 

But you CAN tell one thing, a male only has one X and one Y, and if he has cystinuria, his X is DEFECTIVE.  If he gives a Y gene, the puppy will be male and clear (unless MOM is a carrier).  If he gives an X gene, the puppy will be a daughter AND 100% GUARANTEED TO BE A CARRIER.

 

PLEASE BEWARE.

 

 


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007
Dixie

** Power Poster **
and
FORUM DONOR!!
Registered:
Posts: 5,465
Reply with quote  #181 

Laurie,

 

Thank you for explaining this issue so thoroughly. 

 

I am now glad I tested my female.


__________________
Dixie


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #182 

Winds at 40 miles an hour here today.  Catch up wind for many reasons.  God I love dogs!



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #183 

Laurie wrote:

 

But ALL DAUGHTERS OF A POSITIVE MALE ARE CARRIERS, and therefore some of the carrier's sons WILL BE POSITIVE.

 

Laurie,

Can you direct me to published information from UPENN that states this?  Someone quoted on another board that all siblings of positive males are also carriers.  I have NEVER read or heard this before in my time on the MCOA Cystinuria committee or in the 4 yrs of research I have done myself.  I would like to know where this is written.  It is my understanding that some daughters or sisters *might* be carriers.  Quite a difference in statements.  I also stand by my opinion that false positives are certainly possible on the current test. 

 

Lastly, I spoke to a veterinary urologist who told me that Cystine Stones ARE visible on ultrasounds.  Dr. Giger at UPENN also told me this!  Can you please direct me to literature that states otherwise?

 

I feel very strongly that we all need to understand the facts about this disease, and what we do and DON'T know about this disease.  We already know that it presents itself quite differently in Mastiffs than it does in Newfies with regard to heredity and how it affects (or does not affect) females.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #184 

It was just brought to my attention, that a false statement was made about my dogs on the BBB (Breeder Bashers Board).  I have NEVER owned a Mastiff that has had stones or Cystinuria.  I have owned some boys from my 2001 litter that were diagnosed (repeatedly, annually by high tech ultrasound, and biopsy) with "urethral muscle spasms" which caused them to block urine at times. They have all been tested multiple times via ultrasound, x-ray, catheter, surgical biopsy, and the UPENN Cystinuria test - all negative for stones.  All of these boys were neutered. 

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #185 

>>Can you direct me to published information from UPENN that states this? Someone quoted on another board that all siblings of positive males are also carriers. I have NEVER read or heard this before in my time on the MCOA Cystinuria committee or in the 4 yrs of research I have done myself. I would like to know where this is written.<<

UPenn does not have to say so, this is the intrinsic nature of an x-linked disease. 

 

With 8 years of testing multiple breeds and NO positive females, this form of cystinuria has to be sex-linked, and so far, in all of genetics, there has NEVER been a Y-linked disease.  So if this disease does not affect both sexes equally, it IS sex linked, and specifically X-linked.

 

Females have two X genes.  They can have one clean gene and one C+ gene, and in that case, they are carriers.  The good X dilutes the effect enough they apparently never develop a symptom, but they will pass the bad X, on average, to half their offspring, male AND female.   The males will be positive, the daughters will be carriers like mom.

 

Males have an X and a Y, and therefore determine the gender of their puppies.  The mother can ONLY give an X.  If the father gives an X the puppy is female (XX), if he gives a Y, the puppy is male (XY).

 

A positive male ONLY HAS AN AFFECTED X gene TO GIVE.  That is why ALL daughters of a positive male are CARRIERS.  They have one C+ gene.  It was all Dad had TO give.

 

If a male is positive, he got the C+ gene from his mother. (See above, if he got it from his father, he's a girl).

 

Since the carrier mother has one clean X and one C+ X, on AVERAGE, half her daughters will get the bad X and half will get the clear one.  There is NO way to tell who got the clean ones.

 

>>It is my understanding that some daughters or sisters *might* be carriers. Quite a difference in statements. <<

 

See above.  When you are dealing in averages, you can only say what the AVERAGE result is likely to be. 

 

Also, people tend to soft-pedal bad news in hopes of making it easier to swallow.  Or they don't remember the genetics or other details, and are deliberately vague rather than mis-speak.

 

Late to a meeting, got to run!

 

Hope this helped.

 


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #186 

Laurie wrote:

Since the carrier mother has one clean X and one C+ X, on AVERAGE, half her daughters will get the bad X and half will get the clear one.  There is NO way to tell who got the clean ones.

 

Awww, but it's my understanding that the new Challenge Test (still in development) WILL be able to tell this (ie. it will be able to identify bitch carriers!!!).  Do you understand this to be true also?

 

And, I still stand by my statement that *some* bitch offspring of mothers *might* be carriers and some *might not.*  To say that all bitches are carriers (not said by you) is incorrect, technically.

mothermastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11
Reply with quote  #187 

Oh, we WISH!!!!!

 

The ONLY way to identify a carrier is by DNA.  That won't change.  Carriers do not HAVE identifiable symptoms of the disease, therefore a better urine test won't catch carriers.

 

The challenge test will be like the old glucose tolerance test people used to be given to see if they were diabetic, where the patient drinks or eats a measured amount of the substance their body has trouble processing, and is tested at intervals to see how their body handles it. 

 

The tricky part of designing a test like that is to calibrate the dosage so that if a dog is at the beginning of a bad spell, the test won't push them over the edge into a bout of serious symptoms (stone forming).  Yet the challenge needs to be strong enough to provoke definitive symptoms on the test.  It's a difficult balancing act.

 

So, the challenge test is designed to do a better job of identifying more of the actual positives who now slip under the radar.

 

That would be a big improvement.  It probably cannot catch ALL of them, but if it caught a higher percentage of the genetically positive, we could develop a clearer picture of the disease.  The more info the reseachers have, the better the chances of finding the gene so we can have a DNA test.

 

We are WAY overdue for some breakthrough in accuracy and results.

 

Fingers crossed for the test to be effective and available soon!!!


__________________
laurie (Mother Mastiff)
----------------------------------
copyright 2007


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #188 

It is my understanding that when they find the cyst dog, they are following up with asking for the mother and sisters blood-work.  Let's hope all the owner"s in the litter and bitch owner participate. 

 

The worse part of all of this would be if the ones that have these dogs and offspring and bitch feel too much shame and try to cover it all up.  I appreciate the openness of this thread, by not going crazy and blaming/bashing owners and dogs---I and several others I am sure have been able to wade thru the mud and understand the whole picture. 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #189 
Interesting read:

jkruer01

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 126
Reply with quote  #190 
Why have there not been any females tested positive??? That just doesn't make since. I have seen several posts that stated females can only be carriers and cannot be affected. That simply doesn't make any since whatsoever either. If an affected male is bred to a carrier female then 50% of all females in that litter would be AFFECTED and the other 50% would be CARRIERS. If all that is needed to develop a more accurate test is an AFFECTED female then you should be able to find AT LEAST ONE.

If not enough people are willing to test then there is always the option of purposefully creating one. Isn't this what was done with the PRA disease? It is my understanding that a breeding was done on purpose between a non-affected Mastiff and an affected ??Beagle?? in order to identify the gene responsible for PRA. If in fact an AFFECTED female would identify the gene responsible for Cystinuria in Mastiffs then I think it would be worth it to breed an AFFECTED Male with a CARRIER female to produce an AFFECTED female. Of course the owner of the male and female would have to agree in writing BEFORE the breeding that ALL pups would be sold on a spay/neuter and LIMITED registration contract.

What are your thoughts??? Opinions???

slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #191 
 female would have to agree in writing BEFORE the breeding that ALL pups would be sold on a spay/neuter and LIMITED registration contract.

What are your thoughts??? Opinions???



Hi Maybe i can help :>)
I think one female was found ,belonged to Lauri Brook Adams .She could probly elaborate more :>)

Since there is no DNA test , we dont know who is a carrier or not .

Females can pass the stones ,there for, they are never really noticed .

But Males cant pass the stones , so there for stones are tested and if teh dogs a Postive for Cystine stones .

Then hes a C+, and i would think you would go back to his Dam ,and she could be a carrier .

Of course you could test all your males ,at about 17 months .And that should tell you if hes a postive or not .From what i understand , If a Dog comes back Postive ,its POSTIVE .

There are no False Postives :>)
Marge

slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #192 
disease? It is my a CARRIER female to produce an AFFECTED female. Of course the owner of the male and female would have to agree in writing BEFORE the breeding that ALL pups would be sold on a spay/neuter and LIMITED registration contract.

What are your thoughts

HI ,There is a study going on at Penn state .
And some do donate to the fund ,through the health fund with MCOA .

But There hasent been enough money ,Now the Newf
Breeders have a DNA test .For cystinuria .

Ther is a Cytstiuria list that is very informative .
That can answer all of your questions :>)

But I think in this thread ,you have them all :>)

marge



jkruer01

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 126
Reply with quote  #193 
The Dam of any affected Male IS A CARRIER.  No if ands or butts.  No questions about it.  If a male is affected then the only way he can be affected is if his mother is either a carrier or is affected.

You could either breed an affected male with the Dam of another affected male or you could breed an affected male to his own mother.  Either would produce 50% of all females as AFFECTED and the other 50% would be CARRIERS.

Again, I don't know what it would take to find the gene but if an AFFECTED female is all that is needed it seems to me that it would be worth it.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #194 

Well at this point, It really is better not to bred the male that has it.  We have gone thru why and how certain people felt they could control it.........but that is ONLY if it is sex linked.  Remember it may not be.

There is never enough money for every test but they are trying.

Now what they didn't think of when doing breedings to the Cyst dog, and remember they would spay all the bitches and keep only the males out of the litter, was what if their bitches they bred to the dog were carriers?  Then the pedigree they were trying to save ends up useless because the males from that litter have Cyst.  In other words they screwed up.  It was wrong not thought out well at all.  It was not worth it at all in the end.  The females carriers and need to be spayed and the dogs have Cyst. 

The moral of this, stop trying to save a pedigree that is worthless and a pretty dog that only brings pain to all.

There is one way to stop this and it is not to breed these animals.  So stop it. 
 

jkruer01

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 126
Reply with quote  #195 
Deb,

I was not talking about breeding to try and save a pedigree.  I was talking about trying to find a cure for it.  Someone...I think mothermastiff...suggested that if a female who was POSITIVE (i.e. not just a carrier but actually affected) then that would help them find the cure for it.  If this is the case then I suggested that it may be worth it to do one breeding of a known affected male to a known carrier female in order to find the cure.

This is only if having an affected female will find the gene.  Kind of like the intential breeding to find the PRA gene.

What are your thoughts???



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #196 
I know you were speaking of finding gene to eliminate this nightmare.  They are trying and people that are involved should send their Mastiffs in to help.

This thread was done so one in particular dog's ped could be safe, and we all had a better understanding of how and why they did it and how it was a save way of doing it.  I say they failed and it wasn't worth it.  However, by not breeding the affected animals and siblings--it stops the problem. 
slobber2

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,804
Reply with quote  #197 
This is only if having an affected female will find the gene.  Kind of like the intential breeding to find the PRA gene.

What are your thoughts???


Hi :>)
Well if anyone knows ,about Cystinuria ,its Mother Mastiff ,AKA Laurie Brook Adams :>)

Whos to say , that the Males in the litter wont throw
a C+ Male ??

THey just dont know yet:>)I think Mother Mastiff .
Put the info up on who to speak with at Penn state .

A Dr Hawthorne i believe ,You could probably call her and ask Her .
The whys and what nots :>)I also think Lisa Filu
Is on the Cystinuria Health Committee ,Can help with your questions :>)

I think most would agreee on here .
That a C+ Dog should not be bred ,the $$$$$$
Is enormous Also the Pain for teh Dog .

And the owners ,i Agree with Deb , a Pedigree is not worth it .

Now if you had a special Dog that was postive ,maybe save the Sperm ,till they find DNA test .

Then you can breed to a ,Clear Female ????

Marge




Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #198 

I believe Lorrie even said one breeding was enough and she disagreed with any more breedings.  I agree with her on that and feel she was responsible in her actions..........then others jumped on the bandwagon.  I believe it was for the color of the dog and that was the Only reason they went to the dog.  It is eating their ass right now as we speak.  To tell you the truth--it should!

When PRA came up, there were carriers looking for clear dogs to breed to--I know I said no to them--I looked at it back then as if these animals are carriers--they should not be bred or it will infect us all.  PRA was solved with great expense monetarily and also in animals and owners.  It was solved.

This cyst thing is the same to me--do not breed them.  I feel it is too dangerous to us all--and the people that did this did not follow Lorrie's ideas on the safe way to follow thru.  They have damaged themselves and the rest of the Mastiff community. 

medievalmastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 534
Reply with quote  #199 
Also any female that has a male sibling that is C+ should not be bred.  There is a good chance that they are carriers and the vicious cycle will just continue.   It is painful for the dogs,  and expensive for the owners of these C+ dogs. 

   LisaG


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #200 

Bump for the reason that there is no good reason to bred them!  No dog with Cystinuria out there has ever been such a Magnificent Specimen of an Animal that we ever need to breed it.  The offspring are crossing over to the mainstream of breeding and they are the bitches and some males.  Those of you who are doing this knowingly have damaged yourselves and Hurt the Breed.  Most of you if honest will admit --you bred because the DRF Dog was Apricot in it's brindle color, and it was color you didn't want to loose.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply