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Reply with quote  #101 

Linda, I honestly didn't mean you. I didn't realize that you bred QH.  This was a boarder's horse that we lost.  My point was more about breeders/money/ethics/secrets/lies/pleasure owners.  Well, you know what I meant.

homebody

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Reply with quote  #102 

Ok, would one of you explain HYPP in horses please?? That's a new one on me. I've been away from them for too long.

 

 


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homebody

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Reply with quote  #103 

Hypp is a neuromuscular disease found primarily in Quarter Horses who are descended from Impressive.  Simplified, it causes muscle tremors which lead to the "bulk" often seen in this line.  The constant tremors cause lactic acid build up.  Some of the horses have seizures.  If you visit the UC Davis website or the American Quarter Horse Website or Google HYPP in Quarter Horses or even Impressive, you'll find TONS on it.  Anyway, through a hair test horses can be positive, negative, OR informative.  Informative means they may be asympotmatic but carry the gene.  MANY breeders breed these Informative horses then cross their fingers.  Sound familiar?  It's ALL about the money.

 

I'm sorry, I"m a warmblood person so I"m not that On top of hypp to give you the best explanation.

homebody

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Reply with quote  #104 

Thanks for explaining that Deanne. It sounds pretty horrible. I swear, what some folks will do for money..very sad to hear of yet another awful situation.


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homebody

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Reply with quote  #105 

taken from http://www.moloss.com/001/urc/



Bonnie, a two months old Dogue de Bordeaux, showing a extremely unusual, but not unique, colour.
Her littermates are all normal red mask/no mask Dogues.
The owner want to remain anonymous.

homebody

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Reply with quote  #106 

Yes, the ears do look long. Maybe that goes along with whatever gene caused the pied color too? It's an awfully cute puppy though. It would be interesting to see it as an adult.


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homebody

"You cannot do a kindness too soon, for you never know how soon it will be too late."

Ralph Waldo Emerson
susanb

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Reply with quote  #107 

Looks to me like a bassett hound was saying hello to momma-but stranger things can and have happened--man he is cute though!!! I would take him in a NY minute-cute cute cute!


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Susan
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Reply with quote  #108 
Thought I'd share some pics of my pied Boerboel at 5 months.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: IM003298.jpg, Views: 283, Size: 129.19 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: IM003301.jpg, Views: 475, Size: 171.66 KB 

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Steve Papworth
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Reply with quote  #109 

Steve he is a pretty boy. 

 

Are we that sure that these genes just mutated on pieds or could a fox have gotten in the Hen House ...so to speak.

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Reply with quote  #110 

http://www.boerboels.com/English/BB_standard.htm


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Masafari

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Reply with quote  #111 
Thanks Kathleen, his name is 'Viper" and he's a great pup.He will attach himself to any child he meets and just follow them around every step of the way. He gets on well with all of my dogs and is very well socialized.
Deb, I guess Steve O answered your question with the posting of the standard. Piebalds have been around in both breeds for a long time.
They require an appraisal and need to be above %75 before they can be bred from. With the points system they are graded on each individual part of the dog. It's the SABT's way of only breeding the top %25 of Boerboels in the world. Both of his parents are from full South African imports.

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Steve Papworth
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Reply with quote  #112 

Steve P., I wasn't talking about your pied, but rather Pieds in Mastiffs.  I just wondered if it was a mutation of the color gene only, or if the Saint is the reason or the "Fox" in the Hen House as so many want us to believe.

Masafari

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Reply with quote  #113 
I believe that the American Bulldog was used by some breeders in the development stage of the Boerboel. If true their influence could have something to do with pieds.
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Steve Papworth
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Reply with quote  #114 

The pied mastiffs are definitely cute.  They must be a throwback to the war days when the Mastiff was almost wiped out and breeders took to breeding to Danes and St. Bernards.  Otherwise, how could this happen?  That last picture (I'm not really good at going through all these threads) definitely looks like a St. Bernard.  I always loved St. Bernards as well - so I'd be smitten with one of these myself.

Joanie

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Reply with quote  #115 

Found this interesting...here is my take on pieds and fluffys....(not that anyone has to listen LMAO! hehe)

  

    It is a higher power in the long run that says what will be will be...we can do all we can in genetics and choices...read our pedigrees to the hilt and still find a wax been in a pot of geeen ones LOL The fact is these dogs to me are the big guys way of keeping us all real...he shows us the beauty in diversity and lets us know that we cannot, as hard as we try or as arrogant as we get control nature 100% of the time.

    I think fluffies and pieds often have the best temprament and size and structure so as to make us envious of our short comings in breeding. I think ANY pied or fluffy that shows up in a litter UNEXPECTED is a blessing and a wonder and should be just as treasured as the "Best in Show" potential that carries our breeds name.

     This being said I also think that it should be extremely stressed that these are NOT CORRECT and should NOT be deliberately bred! If you value your breed AS a breed and not just a dog then you HAVE to value their correct color, structure and liniage. One goes hand and hand with the other! It is JUST as WRONG to delibreately breed a dog with a pied or fluffy possability as it is to breed a dog with health issues or questionable liniage. There can be no half way point. If you are going to breed Mastiffs and sell to the public then it is your DUTY to do it with the CORRECT dog in mind.

      There is not just and issue of the show ring, money or bragging rights to breeding dogs...it is also a responsability to your breed. To KNOWINGLY breed for a fluffy or a pied is as wrong as breeding a Lab and a Poodle to create a high demand cash cow.

       It is imperative to breed for the breed standard (or as close as we can as humans get) or the value of the breed becomes worthless, and I am not talking about money. As beautiful as these genetic mysteries are they ARE NOT CORRECT and while we are ooing and ahing about their beauty (which cannot be denied) we NEED to impress loudly that it is NOT desired or correct. If we do not, how long will it be before we too fall into the designer dog catagory and produce these just to fill that niche of people who want the oddity. How long before we are no better then those we condemn for ruining our breeds ( and I do not mean just Mastiffs but all breeds). I am sure (as I have spoke to some) that Labradore breeders and Poodle people are highly insulted at what some BYB has done to their pure bred lines.

      If I had a pied or fluffy as beautiful as some I have seen here pop up as a surprise in a litter I would be hard pressed to let it out of my loving arms BUT I would never let it leave my house without it ALREADY being spayed or neutered. I think we need to make it clear that while fluffys make the best pets and companions they are just that PETS. They should never be romantasized or make it seem as the answer to the perfect Mastiff is either of these styles.

     All dogs are someones baby and that is as it should be BUT we MUST keep this in perspective and as we loose our breath over their beauty, point out the downfall of them losing their place in a breeding program, in the very next breath.

 

     OK FLAME SUIT ON LET ME HAVE IT...THAT IS JMO...have a great day all.


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Joan Horrocks
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #116 

I think I love you Joan!..


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #117 

And Labs & Poodles are variations amoung the genus canis family, therefore it's OK to interbreed them?

 

The key in selective breeding against a breed standard, is in reducing variation, not increasing genetic variables!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #118 

It's a perfect comparison!

 

Two different types should not be bred!

 

Two different "breeds" are still dogs of different types!

 

It doesn't matter if those different types emerge from the same breed, it's still different and if you want to preserve type, you don't breed them back into the "normal" generalized gene pool!

 

If someone gets a 15 inch mastiff, should it be bred back into the breed, all because it came from a mastiff and it looks "cute"?


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #119 

You are Miss Taken!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #120 

I personally do not totally agree with never breeding to a dog because it is a fluffy or a pied.. for me it would depend on the other merits of the dog.  To determine their future as a breeding animal based on a single faullt to me is overkill.  There are no perfect mastiffs, they all have faults, some more than others. Some have more quality than others.

 

To use a working example, lets use the top winning mastiff of all time,  Westminster winner, Multible Specialty show winner - if  not for a fluffy in his background he would not exist. Obviously that fluffy that played a part in creating him had a lot to offer the breed.

 

I have not bred to a fluffy or a pied - I have bred away from the recessive traits when known to me - but if I found a dog that has a lot to offer me in other qualities that I could not obtain elsewhere, I would. One thing I have learned in life - never say never!


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Linda Greeson Rice
AKC Breeder of Merit

The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #121 

When sherman is long gone, he will be just another name on a pedigree!

 

The two dogs that came together and clicked which produced Sherman, would not be there and those genes would be mixed back into the pool once again, with people trying to linebreed Sherman back into existence.

 

The bottom line, is that the fluff gene gets passed on!   If you need to breed to a fluff, despite the 5000 non fluff mastiffs out there, just to bring in some "quality" that you personally deem worthy, the long term affect is not worth the short term perk!

 

"If not for the fluff we wouldn't have Sherman", is like saying, if not for the many cross breedings we wouldn't have mastiffs!

 

Anyone willing to cross breed "today"? If not, then lets not be willing to cross "type" faults either!

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Joanie

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Reply with quote  #122 

OK ...

 

First no one has to agree or disagree with me...it is my opinion...period

 

Second...the analagy of the Lab/Poodle had nothing to do with the gene pool or genus etc.. it had to do with incorrect breeding...you should no sooner breed an incorrect coat/color/etc. in a breed then you should breed two odd breeds to create a new one just because...

 

Third...Delibreately breeding a fault into a line just because you find one trait that you want is wrong if for no other reason than it makes that fault accessable to others who may not even know it is there.

 

and... if you KNOWINGLY do this are you going to be respoinsible for what you produce? Will YOU personally keep every fluffy or pied so it is not continually passed on or will you personally pay for ALL spay and neutering and then tell everyone you produced these faults? Is what benefits us worth procucing things the breed is not supposed to have...where do we draw the line?

 

Why is it horrendous and irresponsible for a breeder to use a dog who may not pass hips (which it STILL is not proven is totally hereditary and which even the top ortho people say is not necessary) because the dog has so many other good traits and yet you feel it is ok to breed an undesirable coat or color. Is not wrong wrong?

 

Boxers are culled all the time because they came from the womb white and no one wants to acknowlege it or speak of it...it is kept hush hush because it is considered so incorrect. So if I now breed to the sire or dam or sibling of this white boxer unknowing there is a white gene there, who is at fault for my poor breeding?

 

Spit happens and we cannot always predict what any breeding will produce...but to knowingly produce it or place the odds in that favor is IMO playing with fire. Where do ethics play in this. We spend a small fortune to test our dogs for everything from hips to hangnails to try to produce a correct healthy specemine...so if we then ignore the rest of the no no's what is the whole point? We have seen pigment in mastiffs dwindle over the years as well as temprament because the "LOOK" of a dog has become the only goal...I think a good dog (again of any breed) is the whole package...not JUST one trait or the other...what good is a georgeous head if there is nothing in it but rage? What good is a georgeous body if the color keeps you from reproducing it or showing the world?....

 

I would be happy to have a pied/fluffy if it was the will of the gods that he should be mine and not my breeding plan. But I would not purchase one to encourage someone to breed more......

 

I feel we as breeders have a responsability not to encourage through admiration ....we can show off these dogs but MUST ALWAYS make it clear...it is NOT what the Mastiff should be...

 

If at some time these are entered and accepted into our standard then by all means...WELCOME but for now they simply are what they are...beautiful imperfections....


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Joan Horrocks
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #123 

The argument of "cosmetic doesn't count" is always made to justify the unjustifiable!

 

Cosmetic imperfections affects type and type is after all, what separates breed from breed!

 

Minor cosmetic faults are easily tolerated ( e.g. hair reversals, lighter pigment, toenail color, etc.), but when the DEGREE of those mentioned cosmetic issues intensify to the limit, then a different value is placed on their respective flaws.

 

It says so in the standard!

 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #124 

 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #125 

Special K,

 

It's not a matter of X vs Y!

 

It's a matter of breeding better mastiffs through the elimination of faults!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Joanie

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Reply with quote  #126 

it sometimes becomes crystal clear to me why I often do not post to lists....good nite all enjoy your play...


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Joan Horrocks
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #127 

Joan,

 

Don't lose hope!

 

If you have a strong position with valid facts to back your thoughts then stay in the game! Other people hear you even though they may not respond. Your point gets through!

 

It's just one poster having some fun because she can't go toe to toe on other terms!

 

Uh oh!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Kathy

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Reply with quote  #128 

Kathleen, Looks like you're in serious need of a good Podiatrist

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #129 

Don't be harsh, she was a middle child!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #130 

It was "removed" because the breeders who founded the original club and standard, decided that the "color" was not going to be reintroduced, since the color was not popular, or available at that point in time.

 

It's not the only breed to delist points, which were at one time in historical record, points of the breed in question!

 

We still need to "remove" certain "points", not add new ones at this point!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #131 

In order to improve the breed, by breeding closer to the standard!

 

Once breed type has been stabilized, then your other destabilizers could be considered.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #132 

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore

 

Just in case you missed it under EVERY ONE of my posts!!!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #133 

People that have these pieds and push them as something "Special" or "Unique", and continue to breed them are doing a Great dis-service to the breed.  This is a mutation, and it takes it far from the recognized Standard.  Please keep in mind, we do have a Standard.  This now becomes a designer dog--certainly they are beautiful, but can not and should not be bred or recognized in the ring when judged by the Standard.  To continually breed and push the pied is nothing more than bastardizing our OEM. 

 

At one time this showed up as an accidental mutation, and the combination was never breed again.....even the pied was killed.  Unfortunately, some of today's breeders are breeding based on their checkbooks.  This "Special" "Unique" color is a claim in order for them to generate a profit on this deviation to the Standard.  It is a recessive gene...but a mutation to the Standard of the OEM.

 

Truly they are beautiful animals, but breeding to specifically pull out this trait must be discouraged.  For everyone to come in on pieds and say how beautiful...how proud they would be to own one is very alarming to Breeders for the sole reason we may be encouraging the breeding of pieds.  They are wrong. 

 

I love Janine boy--he is Unique--he is the only one.  She is famous for owning him.  She did the right thing and neutered him.  You do not have to kill them--they are wonderful PETS..........Nothing More!

 

If you think I have been hard or just crazy this morning......that is your call.  Every breeder across this planet is sitting back going ...Finally!  The Breeders in other countries and the USA have been sitting there going ...I can't believe the arrogant Americans approve of the pied--they will bring down this Great Breed of the OEM for sure eventually.  No the Real Dedicated Breeders will not!!!!  We love to look at them, but the color does change many parts of the dog to what we have as a Standard.  Do not breed them--they are pets.



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Reply with quote  #134 

We can all see clearly not every OEM should be bred.  Never the pied for sure, it is disturbing to see one, and then the owner have another one younger..........that tells me they are breeding on purpose for the color.  You may choose to love your animal, but know it is wrong to breed it.  It does not fit the Standard, so do not breed it!  Any Breeder will be faced with choices to make when they breed..........the pied should never be in the mix to choose from.

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Reply with quote  #135 

Kathleen as usual you crack me up girl! I loved the Princess Bride! And the dancing pied guinea pig is so funny--have you seen the dancing and singing ones they sell at like Wally world? So funny!


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Reply with quote  #136 

 

                               This Needs Clarification

 

Steve, Maybe you can help.....what is this??..... a "Pied Fawn" or a "Fawn Pied"...All I know for certain is that it's not an Apricot or a Brindle

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #137 
http://www.kerrlake.com/deer/albino.html
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #138 

bumping for the poll or polling for a bump--LOL

LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #139 

bump fo knowledge


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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".


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Reply with quote  #140 

Leucism

                                       

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Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals.

Leucism is a general term for the phenotype resulting from defects in pigment cell differentiation and/or migration from the neural crest to skin, hair or feathers during development. This results in either the entire surface (if all pigment cells fail to develop) or patches of body surface (if only a subset are defective) having a lack of cells capable of making pigment.

Since all pigment cell-types differentiate from the same multipotent precursor cell-type, leucism can cause the reduction in all types of pigment. This is in contrast to albinism, for which leucism is often mistaken. Albinism results in the reduction of melanin production only, though the melanocyte (or melanophore) is still present. Thus in species that have other pigment cell-types, for example xanthophores, albinos will not be entirely white instead displaying a pale yellow colour.

More common than a complete absence of pigment cells is localized or incomplete hypopigmentation, resulting in irregular patches of white on an animal that otherwise has normal colouring and patterning. This partial leucism is known as a "pied" or "piebald" effect; and the ratio of white to normal-coloured skin can vary considerably not only between generations, but between different offspring from the same parents, and even between members of the same litter. This is notable in horses, the urban crow[1] and the ball python[2] but is also found in many other species. In contrast, albinism always affects the entire animal.

A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism.

Genes that, when mutated, can cause leucism include, c-kit [3], mitf [4] and ednrb [5]

[edit] Term origin and pronunciation

The terms leucistic and leucism are derived from medical terminology. The prefix leuc- is the Latin variant of leuk- from the Greek leukos meaning "white" (see Steadman’s, Dorland’s or Taber’s medical dictionaries). The correct pronunciation of leucistic is (loo-kiss-tic) and leucism is (loo-kism) since the prefix in Greek and Latin are pronounced with the hard C or K sound. Since the prefix leuc- is a variant of leuk-, in medical circles the terms may also be spelled with a k (leukistic and leukism).

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[edit] See also

 This genetics article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #141 

It's a Leuc interpretation!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
childrenwithfur

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Reply with quote  #142 

Bump!


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #143 

Pallone wrote:
Quote:
 
People that have these pieds and push them as something "Special" or "Unique", and continue to breed them are doing a Great dis-service to the breed.  This is a mutation, and it takes it far from the recognized Standard.  Please keep in mind, we do have a Standard.  This now becomes a designer dog--certainly they are beautiful, but can not and should not be bred or recognized in the ring when judged by the Standard.  To continually breed and push the pied is nothing more than bastardizing our OEM. 

At one time this showed up as an accidental mutation, and the combination was never breed again.....even the pied was killed.  Unfortunately, some of today's breeders are breeding based on their checkbooks.  This "Special" "Unique" color is a claim in order for them to generate a profit on this deviation to the Standard.  It is a recessive gene...but a mutation to the Standard of the OEM.

Truly they are beautiful animals, but breeding to specifically pull out this trait must be discouraged.  For everyone to come in on pieds and say how beautiful...how proud they would be to own one is very alarming to Breeders for the sole reason we may be encouraging the breeding of pieds.  They are wrong. 

I love Janine boy--he is Unique--he is the only one.  She is famous for owning him.  She did the right thing and neutered him.  You do not have to kill them--they are wonderful PETS..........Nothing More!

If you think I have been hard or just crazy this morning......that is your call.  Every breeder across this planet is sitting back going ...Finally!  The Breeders in other countries and the USA have been sitting there going ...I can't believe the arrogant Americans approve of the pied--they will bring down this Great Breed of the OEM for sure eventually.  No the Real Dedicated Breeders will not!!!!  We love to look at them, but the color does change many parts of the dog to what we have as a Standard.  Do not breed them--they are pets.


Now what if we were to substitute the word fluff in place of the word Pied?

Does this suddenly change things and if so, why?

Pieds can be bred out as well and if they contribute bone, head, or other attributes, then can't we rationalize their use in breeding, especially if there was a DNA test for the pied genes?


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #144 

The pied could have been stopped, the Fluff can not!  The numbers are too great on the fluff and why not substitute white toes for pied if you use that rationale?

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Reply with quote  #145 


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The Mastiff Sweet Spot
http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
hunzeal

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Reply with quote  #146 
Very well said, Deborah! I predict a strong possibility that the way some breeding is going in Oz, more pieds will pop up and furthermore, they seem to be beginning to be re veered as some fashionable 'alternatives'....
I certainly euthanized the 3 huge, beautiful apricot pieds that surprisingly presented in my 32nd litter from an apricot boy of 1/2 my breeding to an American line of not my choosing.
Re the utilization of their perceived or otherwise 'substance'....we surely have a great number of correct, complying to the standard Mastiffs of great size & substance to choose from world wide. 
I smile at the let's pile it ALL on the  'Deer Run'  factor...as ALL my 30 previous breedings were double, treble or even quadruple Deer Run with NO PIEDS ever presenting!!!!...but I certainly produced some lovely, sound and  typey dogs!
Too much knowledge is dangerous....as a result of my initial enthusiastic thirst and quest for Mastiff knowledge back in the 1980's I have become privy to some very INTERESTING first hand information about our breed and some wonderful and reputable kennels both in the UK and Oz...(back in the early days when magnificent Mastiffs were still very scares. 
I also view the ' pure lines ' supporters with great curiosity...Without wanting to implicate anyone on the list...Things are not all as they appear! DNA testing would hold lots of surprises world wide even today!
To me, it is much more important to we take full responsibility here & now than to cast the first stone from a glass house.
Amasha.


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Reply with quote  #147 

That deer looks like Snowball, the deer they took from the owners


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Reply with quote  #148 

Pallone, the thought was advanced in order to demonstrate that incorrect is incorrect, no matter how we rationalize it! It's not a question of which incorrect trait is easier to remove, or inhibit!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #149 
Amasha,

In your view, have you come to any conclusion as to a common denominator as to which line, or dogs seem to be the carriers of the pieds that you have witnessed over time, or is it a random happenstance from your own experience?

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #150 
Thank you Steve for your answer although I believe I have said over and over my thoughts on pieds, however it does not diminish my desire to want to know more about them and they are so cute as babies and big.  I have always believed that Oz Land's reason for having what seems to be a greater number of pieds is the small gene pool because of their quarantines and quantity of dogs which allows the same dogs to breed increasing the chances of recessive genes to connect better . 

I can see the tug at the hearts of breeders also when they have a pied in the litter especially if they carry more bone , head, and size in general to try and capture it from the pied by breeding it and improving their Solids.  There fore it is not a question of let's make sure no one does this, but rather a question of is there any studies that prove this helped?  By dwelling into this "Old Wife's Tail" as you call it, we can understand if the qualities were of any help vs the passing on of a recessive gene that caused what seems to be great embarrassment to Breeders.

We are Risk takers at times, but by talking about why Breeders do take risk, it allows us not to make mistakes in the future.  That is all, nothing more , nothing less.
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