This Forum is brought to you by The Mastiff Sweet Spot and Friends of the Forum.
Register Calendar
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 4 of 12      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   Next   »
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #151 
Hi Deb
       I don't think the gene pool is that small any more if you consider there is very low numbers that are breed here.
But yes you are right about breeders using the carriers.
There was only one line that produced the pied here for 20 years or so and it only came up now and then maybe 2 times in 20 years lets not go there.

Now there is 5 breeders different kennels that I know off that now have Pieds bred in there Kennel.
What they do not under stand is that all the litter can carry it not just the ones that are Pied colors.
And most Kennels do have that same Kennel that produced the pieds 20 years ago so now it is getting very easy for the pied gene to hook up and pop out

Yet they still use the litter mates from the litter that started putting out the pieds again and they are all producing Pieds as far as I know
There's no point it just not breeding from the pieds them self it is there parents and there parent's siblings as well that need to be removed from the gene pool.
Just My 2 cents

 Gloria the answer is still no you can not come see our dog and you know the reason is you picked a fight with me and silaged all my dogs less than 3 weeks ago so I see no point in having you at our house to start it again.
Happy to help you enjoy your time in OZ if I can but not at our house
If you wanted to see our dogs you would have asked before you came
 not when you got here or you could have gone to the show last weekend and seem Grand Champion Mastdoch Red Terra win the group and then go thought to the in show judge and win Runner up best in Show
Best Regards.
peter

__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/
ToadHall

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 637
Reply with quote  #152 
To me pieds and fluffies are just coat faults. One is no greater a fault than the other in my thinking, although there is a DNA test for fluffies if one should choose to breed them out..Compared to the pieds how many fluffies would have turned up? Wouldn't this be a bigger problem? We havn't had pieds in NZ I don't think, but lots of fluffies. No one has tried to breed them out ..or we would only have my lines and one other left in the country, of course this would be unthinkable!

__________________
Karen Dyer
Toadhall Mastiffs
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/index.html


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #153 
Quote from Amasha:

I certainly euthanized the 3 huge, beautiful apricot pieds that surprisingly presented in my 32nd litter from an apricot boy of 1/2 my breeding to an American line of not my choosing.

***********************************************************

I have waited to see if anyone would say anything and to choose my words carefully without assigning blame. 

Amasha can you tell the year this euthanizing of your pups took place and Why?  I would find it hard to put down a living puppy just because of color or embarrassment.  Was there no other way, or was it in anger because of the breeding to the American line you did not want, or the burden of embarrassment?  If it was just the male you didn't like then were all the pups put down?  It seems so wrong since I am the one that has always told every poster how much I love babies, and it seems so cruel. 

I appreciate you being Honest about your decision and maybe you could elaborated why this choice was made.
DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #154 
I have to agree with Deborah about putting down Pieds. You as the breeder saw to it that those pups were brought into this world, so I feel you should see to it that they are neutered and placed in a good PET home.

As Deb alluded to about being "embarrassed", if this is the case then chosing the Mastiff breed to raise is probably a poor choice.
owenspride

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 3,194
Reply with quote  #155 
I'm glad I'm not the only one to take issue with the euthanization of healthy, pet quality puppies who could go on to live happy lives with loving pet owners!!
To me, there isn't any way to justify that. That's just wrong. That is a lack of respect for life: for the very lives that you have endeavored to create for your own interests.

Give them way, for God's sake, to people who will love them; raise them to 8 weeks and put them in a shelter; ANYTHING is preferable to just hands down DESTROYING them because they don't look the way you want.
Puppies can be spayed/neutered as early as 6 weeks ( shelter medicine; not as safe as when they're older but safer than the euthanasia solution, which has nasty side effects!)  Give them away as neutered pets.

I am sick to my stomach.

M.C. Kay CVT



__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RE CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle RN
CH.Owenspride Absolute Aplomb RN ;WB Trenton 2011 REST IN PEACE
GCH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never RN ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
AOMS; Bucks and Trenton 2011
Owenspride Particular Panache v Brookside
kittieseapod, Sparrow,and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #156 
Hi Karen
           I know you have not been in the breed for that long so Just to make it easy for you go and read the standed on the coat I think you will find it very interesting to know that there are also many dogs with the wrong coat.
 a mastiff does not have the same coat as a bull mastiff and there is far to many mastiffs with a short coat and some of the dogs you would call fluffies have a coat closer to the stand than many of the shorter coated
so if you want to count all the coat faults in and not breed from them you will find most breeders in the world would have one or the other
and I am not picking but there is far to many short coats that make the correct coat look wrong
Best Regards.
peter

__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #157 
You know Peter, you seem to be a bitter man. I carry no grudges toward you, & can be objective as a breeder.
I now have absolutely no interests in coming to see you or your Mastiffs,
because as far as I'm concerned, same ole shit, just a different place!!
Sad to say the least, as I geniunely would have enjoyed seeing your dogs from the Bredwardine lines as "I had them back in the 80's."  And, have personally met Richard Thomas at the MCOA specialty back in 86.
Luckily, I have met some of Amasha's doggy friends who sincerely embraced me in the true spirit of the breed. I have been on a grand tour of Sydney for days thanks to them.
Prejudice comes in all shapes & sizes. As it was proven in a previous thread prior to my arriving in Australia when I mistakenly posted Amasha's Zeena winning Royal Sydney instead of Royal Melbourne, even though the picture clearly stated Royal Melbourne 2007.
Somehow, that was turned into a gay bashing opportuntity!!
I'll end with- Different strokes for different folks...I'm very proud of who I am,
as well as being the breeder of Lionhearted Mastiffs.       Gloria



__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #158 
Toadhall Karen, in 1 litter, you have already achieved far more than many breeders have in 20 years...hats off to you! ( In producing big boned, typey
pups.)

And, I came to a realization earlier today when discussing pieds, black Mastiffs, & fluffs. We are not the great & powerful wizards we seem to think.
Because here we are, still facing some of the same issues that have been around in Mastiffs for centuries!!
In the end, hopefully the dogs will have the last laugh and give many a dose of humble pie.                  Gloria

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #159 
Firstly ....Steve,

"In your view, have you come to any conclusion as to a common denominator as to which line, or dogs seem to be the carriers of the pieds that you have witnessed over time, or is it a random happenstance from your own experience? "

Steve,  I am convinced that beside the St. Bernard gene our dogs also have a healthy weighting of Newfies ( as well as Danes & Dogues, & Bull Mastiffs) behind them as well....just look at some of the head shapes & bottom jaw presenting...I have not seen a black & white Saint to date.... I, personally  only had it presenting once the apricot gene was present in my 32nd litter.
I have INBRED  brother -sister, Mother -son, cousins of fawns for 20 years yet NEVER produced a pied...and ALL with Deer Run behind them...so I used to smile when all accusing fingers point to a man who was caught out ...many more were NOT!
I have heard of several litters world wide over the past decades that were swept under the carpet. There would be NUMEROUS combinations, though I cannot fathom how it NEVER happened to me b4! When it did, I bred ( same parents, different litters ) progeny 3 litter mates X USA dog ...alas an APRICOT!
I do believe NZ. Ch Hunzeal Hi.N MityTana to be a carrier...but then to a brindle dog there was NO colour variation in 10 pups...and her OTHER 2 brother & sister in the ' surprise package' I bred together TWICE...10 pups in total NO PIEDS! The explanation has to be simple, information often masked!
Amasha.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #160 
Well Gloria.
 Sorry that you seem to have your back up but if you want to go back to that thread you will see that you tried to belittle both me and my dogs and your friend called me a liar not using that word but the same thing.

I am sure that she now knows that it was her that was wrong. I am sure you also know what i said was right maybe you should show her how to edit or maybe you should have deleted the thread and started again

Sorry but if you did want to see my dogs for the right reasons you did it the wrong way.
I would not dream of silaging some one then turn up in the country ask to visit them I am sure I would have got the same answer from you if it was the other way around

You know you could have just mailed me said you were coming and I would have offered to take you places and been happy to let you see the dogs
Same as we have done with so many others

I did tell you if I could help you enjoy your stay I would be happy too.
Now I think you are just a Bitter lady that wanted to pick a fight 
now as for saying the wrong Royal
Sorry I am not stupid You cut and pasted what Amasha sent you as if she would not know what royal she had just won.
Maybe it was so I would correct it and you could then shoot the gun that amasha loaded for you.
 No need to comment on that
As for Guy bashing never happened but if that's the way you want to look at it fine.
I do hope you have a nice stay and I am glad you are enjoying your self hope you have a good safe trip home.
 regards.
peter



__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/
ToadHall

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 637
Reply with quote  #161 
Hi Peter,
'the dogs you would call fluffies have a coat closer to the stand than many of the shorter coated'
well the dogs I have seen are definately fluffies, and are rightly called fluffies by their owners who have bought them as pets..fabulous looking mastiffs..I would have one!

'and I am not picking but there is far to many short coats that make the correct coat look wrong'

of course you are right Peter, short coats should definately be added to the list of coat faults.Oh dear, now theres only my line left in NZ....just kidding LOL
People often comment on Lola's coat for this reason..they are quite surprised when I tell them that it is closer to correct..

regards Karen






__________________
Karen Dyer
Toadhall Mastiffs
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/index.html
ToadHall

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 637
Reply with quote  #162 
hopefully the dogs will have the last laugh and give many a dose of humble pie. Gloria

Gloria, I often think this too..after all the horrible things we humans have done to mastiffs over the centuries..bear baiting, lions, war dogs etc
I have a chuckle to myself thinking that they might be sitting up there laughing at the breeder game LOL

__________________
Karen Dyer
Toadhall Mastiffs
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/index.html


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #163 

Amasha Please explain why you killed those pups that were pied, no mater what you call it--it was killing. I am sure there was a reason and everyone going another direction to avoid this will not make it go away.

owenspride

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 3,194
Reply with quote  #164 
Quote:
Amasha Please explain why you killed those pups that were pied, no mater what you call it--it was killing.
Quote:


As Deb said, I 'd like to hear that event further addressed rather than ignored; but there certainly is no "explanation" that can justify the choice to do that.

I'd also like to hear from other members of this list, as to whether or not they would do the same if they produced something they didn't think was perfect in some aesthetic way.

I've been in the breed for over 10 years now; am still a "no one" and probably always WILL be...but I've learned alot about some folks in the last year that has really surprised me. ( In some cases, not happily) .

Anyone who would euthanize puppies based upon their "race" or mere aesthetics is not someone I want to do business with or reccommend, at the very least.
Sincerely, M.C.Kay


__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RE CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle RN
CH.Owenspride Absolute Aplomb RN ;WB Trenton 2011 REST IN PEACE
GCH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never RN ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
AOMS; Bucks and Trenton 2011
Owenspride Particular Panache v Brookside
kittieseapod, Sparrow,and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,876
Reply with quote  #165 
Karen,

The historical record has always favored the short coat..........

Stonehenge 1866.... " coat short, and tail fine, but with a very slight indication of roughness."

Wynn 1873 adopted by the club...."coat: I am an advocate for fineness of the same".

1866 Mastiff club..."Coat...Hard, short, and fine".

1878 Stonehenge.."Coat: Must be fine and short, even on the tail, which, however, may be allowed to be a little more rough than the body".

OEMC 1883, 1929, 1949..."Coat...Short and close lying, but not too fine over the shoulders, neck, and back."

MCOA 1941 ...Coat: "Outer coat moderately coarse. Undercoat, dense, short and close lying."


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #166 
I am not commenting on or judging what other breeds do.
We would put them in pet homes or keep them our self. more than likely keep them but we also have the room to keep them and many do not
Shit we pay mega buck to try and save a sick pup just to give it to the best home we can find for it.

Our Frog cost us about $8000 in vet bills the vet told us we were wasting our time and she would die any way She was a single pup the vet asked me could she have her body when she dies so she could try and see why she was so sick and what it was that did killer her in the end.
the vet is still waiting for the body and frog is still with us today.
I have tried to give her away but they keep bringing her back
There has been many people that come here and fall in love with the Frog and when the day comes that is what will be put on her vase
the bad part about frog is that she was going to die any way so she got to sleep in the bed and as you know once you let them do that it belongs to them.
She stopped getting on the bed about a year ago she is getting old now I think it is to high and to hard to get up there now.
Best regards.
peter



__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #167 
Deborah Dear,

"Amasha can you tell the year this euthanizing of your pups took place and Why?  I would find it hard to put down a living puppy just because of color or embarrassment.  Was there no other way, or was it in anger because of the breeding to the American line you did not want, or the burden of embarrassment?  If it was just the male you didn't like then were all the pups put down?  It seems so wrong since I am the one that has always told every poster how much I love babies, and it seems so cruel. 

I appreciate you being Honest about your decision and maybe you could elaborated why this choice was made."

14-09-1998.....I broke my heart & euthanized  at birth... there were altogether 6 apricot boys...3  huge apricot pieds...standard procedure is to let pups gasp & die...I could NOT do this...I PAID $ 20-00/ pup so they would NOT suffer!!
Honey, just watch ...Seldom as I make a comment and I am JUMPED on straight away!!!! Lurking lurkers with no lives~!
HOW vulnerable do u think I am???? Go back on the messages...these Oz dears who I have beaten MORE often than not, have NO comments to make until I respond to a  post!!!!
I did what I believed I had to do as a conscientious breeder....I would NOT make the same choice today! NO! I did NOT euthanize my beautiful pups out of spite ...American bloodline of my choice or not.... I LOVE babies, my LOVE of the breed is much bigger that my contempt for the Oz fraternity! ! I did what I had to do for the FEAR that some dipshit as in the past guided by a stupid woman in Victoria who has done NOTHING in Oz except open her stupid BIG empty mouth...WILL encourage some similar twits to seek my
' pets'  out and breed with them!
Having NEVER bred a litter ' just to sell ' I feel very vulnerable as in the past when I advised my puppy buyers NOT to breed with the dogs they were sold as NOT a breeding pair...and this twit advised them to do just that against my wishes ..AS SHE IS THE ' PEDIGREE EXPERT'...so for the FEAR of perpetuating the problem I WASTED at least $ 4000! euthanizing ...hey, all of you jumping up and down ....I take RESPONSIBILITY for ALL my dogs for the rest of their lives...I also want to make sure I produce as close to the standard as possible... I rest my case! I DON'T want my puppies ending up in shelters....there are plenty of ' pets' being already produced in Oz! Amasha.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #168 
Amasha I did not read all of your post I only got to the part where you said  Lurking lurkers with no lives~!
beaten more often than not. 
I would just like to remind you that our kennel is the Best winning kennel in Australia and has been for over 10 years so i do hope your not trying to have a dig at me for shit you got your self in.
Sorry to every one else But i have had more than enough of Amasha and Gloria's slack
Best Regards.
peter

__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/
owenspride

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 3,194
Reply with quote  #169 
 ! I did what I had to do for the FEAR that some dipshit as in the past guided by a stupid woman in Victoria who has done NOTHING in Oz except open her stupid BIG empty mouth...WILL encourage some similar twits to seek my
' pets'  out and breed with them!



I just don't get it, I'm afraid! The only way to prevent such a thing was to kill the puppies? And what was the big rush? why not keep them, feed them and care for them and look for good pet homes for them? Why not spay and neuter before adopting them out for free to some nice families?
Talk about killing an ant with an atom bomb. " I don't want  these to be bred, so I will kill them now!?" Makes no sense.
 Does that mean that every puppy produced and allowed to live,  SHOULD be bred? If they aren't breeding quality they should be killed?  If they look fine at birth but later become ones that you deem should not be bred, are they then euthanized at that age? Or are they always breeding quality? Wow. 
That can't really be what you are saying, I must be misunderstanding.
M.C.


__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RE CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle RN
CH.Owenspride Absolute Aplomb RN ;WB Trenton 2011 REST IN PEACE
GCH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never RN ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
AOMS; Bucks and Trenton 2011
Owenspride Particular Panache v Brookside
kittieseapod, Sparrow,and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #170 

Thank you Amasha on your answer.  I must suggest that that one should always look into spaying, neutering and withholding papers?  Yes it is more time consuming and there is more money involved, but as a Breeder we must realize that life is precious and we have an obligation to our own ethics first and foremost over anything else. No club, no person can take that away from one...........if we do not give care to a single baby animal and value their life, how can we have respect for anything else.  In every religion great value is put on an animal's care even when we value them as only livestock.  It worries me to think about if the value of a young life is not important , what happens when one gets too old to bred.  This grieves me, but I am glad to hear you would not do it again.

owenspride

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 3,194
Reply with quote  #171 
also, Peter- don't take offense at the lurking lurkers thing...
LOL

We know you aren't a lurker ; you  participate in discussions! And I'm sure you have a life. I  am interested in your input so please don't leave..

I am not a lurker either...I inhabit this tiny space when I have time; which I am now OUT OF as I must go on to my job as a surgery tech for our beloved pets! 
Take care everyone-
M.C.


__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RE CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle RN
CH.Owenspride Absolute Aplomb RN ;WB Trenton 2011 REST IN PEACE
GCH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never RN ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
AOMS; Bucks and Trenton 2011
Owenspride Particular Panache v Brookside
kittieseapod, Sparrow,and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/
ToadHall

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 637
Reply with quote  #172 
Steve,  great attention to detail..LOL
"Coat...Short and close lying, but not too fine over the shoulders, neck, and back."
would be how I would describe Lola's coat. Its hard to see in pics because she is brindle.. but alot of my breeder friends (of other breeds) who see her in person comment on it as it stands out more on her than Teddy..Teddy only has a bit on his neck/shoulders but hers goes right down the length of her back.
cheers Karen



__________________
Karen Dyer
Toadhall Mastiffs
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/index.html


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #173 
Oh I just hate to see dead horses getting beaten - Deborah's question was answered. And for fear that someone might think that putting down healthy pups is a viable choice after reading the original post I am happy the question got answered.





Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #174 
Quote:
I would NOT make the same choice today! NO!



DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #175 
Amasha, I have quoted you from two different posts. In the first one you state matter of factly that you certainly euthanized the pups. In the other post you state that you would not make the same choice today. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways and not get called on it.

So to clear up any misunderstanding on your position of euthanizing healthy dogs, do you believe in putting down mastiffs that don't fit into your breeding program?

 
 
10/31/07 at 11:25 PM

hunzeal

Very well said, Deborah! I predict a strong possibility that the way some breeding is going in Oz, more pieds will pop up and furthermore, they seem to be beginning to be re veered as some fashionable 'alternatives'....
I certainly euthanized the 3 huge, beautiful apricot pieds that surprisingly presented in my 32nd litter from an apricot boy of 1/2 my breeding to an American line of not my choosing.

Today at 10:04 AM
hunzeal

Deborah Dear,

"Amasha can you tell the year this euthanizing of your pups took place and Why?  I would find it hard to put down a living puppy just because of color or embarrassment.  Was there no other way, or was it in anger because of the breeding to the American line you did not want, or the burden of embarrassment?  If it was just the male you didn't like then were all the pups put down?  It seems so wrong since I am the one that has always told every poster how much I love babies, and it seems so cruel. 

I appreciate you being Honest about your decision and maybe you could elaborated why this choice was made."

14-09-1998.....I broke my heart & euthanized  at birth... there were altogether 6 apricot boys...3  huge apricot pieds...standard procedure is to let pups gasp & die...I could NOT do this...I PAID $ 20-00/ pup so they would NOT suffer!!
Honey, just watch ...Seldom as I make a comment and I am JUMPED on straight away!!!! Lurking lurkers with no lives~!
HOW vulnerable do u think I am???? Go back on the messages...these Oz dears who I have beaten MORE often than not, have NO comments to make until I respond to a  post!!!!
I did what I believed I had to do as a conscientious breeder....I would NOT make the same choice today! NO!

 




Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #176 
Quote:
Amasha, I have quoted you from two different posts. In the first one you state matter of factly that you certainly euthanized the pups. In the other post you state that you would not make the same choice today. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways and not get called on it.


I most certainly disagree with this statement.....
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #177 

"I would just like to remind you that our kennel is the Best winning kennel in Australia and has been for over 10 years .."

Really, Peter! ? WHAT Other kennel in Oz are  out there CONSTANTLY????Perhaps you should have told your success to the Royal Brisbane judge who put a junior dog and a PUPPY dog as BOB & RUBOB over your 'only Grand champion bitch' in Oz in August! Wow! A ' Grand Champion' to me needs to be recognized amongst other Mastiffs! ...as to your other ' Grand Ch.'.. who generally came 3/3 or 4/4 in Mastiff competition! I personally beat him with my dogs all times bar one!!! Pity that his magnificence just was not so obvious in Mastiff competition.
Now that if you want to get personal, I have beaten you at ALL Royal Shows as well as ALL Spring Fairs ( our other most prestigious Sydney Show) bar one! I rest my case!
You are a BIG fish in a NON Mastiff pond! but I salute you for having been essentially the ONLY exhibitor out there in the NSW show ring year in year out this past decade since I left the State! It takes 1000 points to make a Grand Champion...I personally opted to make up 30 Champions...though I am dragging my feet about showing these days...how many Champions have you made up?
How about winning some BOB regularly amongst other Mastiffs of quality??? Try Victoria, Oz's Mastiff stronghold!
You are very carefully avoiding them it seems! I can't understand just why you don't feel secure enough? Heaven knows...I am OVER showing...you had it all to yourself ! and for the record...I ASKED for Gloria to come over to look and see....you are forever boasting about your great kennels...you live less than 10 minutes away. She was genuinely interested to meet you and your dogs...we have already congratulated you on your Sydney Royal win on HER list...Have you forgotten??? You seem to be a  really a twisted little soul looking for some nasty hidden meaning! Lighten up! You have won the most ' in group' wins in Oz...pity it does NOT translate to Mastiff competition! Congratulations! Amasha.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #178 

"So to clear up any misunderstanding on your position of euthanizing healthy dogs, do you believe in putting down mastiffs that don't fit into your breeding program?"

My last post for today, well past midnight! What a time consuming counter productive exercise this has been for my honesty?! WHICH one of you SUFFERED the PAIN of this decision?? I could have SOLD the pups!
Incidentally, WHICH one of you have given up your absolutely gorgeous homes to down trade to  lesser ones to be able to plough in megabucks year in year out to be able to keep, show, import and breed Mastiffs of quality ? Perhaps you given up your well paying jobs as a University graduate to be able to stay home with your dogs KNOWING that you were running at a HUGE loss for over 20 years..just for the sheer LOVE of the breed!
Which one of you started to REGULARLY hip, elbow score & eye test to RAISE the bar in Mastiffs in Oz?
..Stipulate that bitches need to be near enough to 2 years of age or 3rd season, health tested to be bred?? Honestly, you are taking ME to task over a decision I did NOT take lightly and I made in the interest of the breed I perceived best at the time?! NO wonder our breed is full of ' surprises' ...I spent MEGABUCKS SAVING pups, I breed sparingly and ALL my pups I consider precious. It was a horrible decision I considered right at the time.

re 'healthy puppies' goodness! How do any of us know if they would have survived??? My litter of gorgeous healthy pups in 1992 were on death's door on day six! Spent several thousands of dollars and 3 weeks of no sleep to save them! So easy to flame & judge. Good grief,  with the possibility of the pied factor I did NOT use some 20 odd dogs, all were sold as PETS! I don't go around killing something as it  does not fit into my ' breeding program' ...you have no idea! Amasha.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #179 

Thank you for your response, Amasha.  You have made it clear where you stand on the issue.....



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #180 
Angie , You know I dearly love you, however this is not whipping a dead horse.  People who do not come forth and say that this bothers them, may lead others to believe this is the correct way Breeders deal with these issues.  Sometimes a silence leads others to feel one condones these acts.  You are a fighter and believe in the monks of Burma and the horrible acts of Brutality they face today and now.  Silence often leads to condoning these acts and Outcry tries to teach people what is wrong and right. 

Just because one says they are sorry or they won't do it again is not without consequences.  Amasha was honest and put herself out there and gave reasons on why she did this , along with a backhanded comment of the dog was not of her choice.  We also have the issue if a pied is killed, then the rest of the litter should be if you follow the theory since they and the parents carry the gene.  I feel I can not stay silent or the world sees it as I agree in the decision.  All Creatures , great and small should have worth, however the ones I create I have more of a responsibility to.  I am not the Mastiff police but sometimes things are wrong, just Dead Wrong.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #181 
They speak of Culling for color here also

PDF]

Culling

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
However we feel that there are situations where culling is to be recommended. Firstly, by using the. word "cull" we mean to euthanase the whelp (puppy) and ...
http://www.rhodesianridgeback.org.za/notices/AN011.doc.pdf - Similar pages

DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #182 

Deborah, I know you aren't a member of the MCOA anymore, but do you know if they have a stance on euthanizing dogs that do not meet the Mastiff standard?

Tracy

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,726
Reply with quote  #183 
I have pretty much stayed out of this until now, but, here we go.
In 1998 when Amasha made that decision, she did what was right for herself and her breeding program. It sounds like from the gist of her post that she was afraid others would get hold of her pieds and try to breed to them. Even thought the technology of early age spay neuter was available then, it was not widly accepted even here in the US back then. we faced that issue with the humane society, where many vets refused to participate in the early spay neuter programs citing stats from old tales about issues that would arise later in life. Only after the Unversity of Florida and thier vet program put out an extensive study on the subject did the paln become more widely accepted.  many many Humane socities allowed unspayed and unnneutered animals out into the public up to that point with the promise that the public would spay and nueter later. the compliance rate was only 55 %.
Since Amasha stated that she would not do this again, why the vilification?
It is a well known fact in the animal industry that substandard animals of many species are culled, just no one talks about it.  years ago, Pieds were culled, just as GSP were culled for being the wrong, color, Ridgebacks without a ridge ect.  There are just as many breeders of many animals who cull there older animals who are no longer productive. It is a fact of animal industries.
Is it right, absolutely not. Life of any kind should be respected. Every animal that is not what we expected should be spayed and neutered, and placed into pet homes. The technology is available today, use it. If you have to many animals that you cannot keep what you produce that you cannot place, stop breeding until you do.

__________________
Ranchlands Mastiffs http://www.ranchlandsmastiffs.com Member MCOA, SSMF, FAME Rescue Volunteer SSMR If you dont rescue, Dont Breed. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein Ch Sherwood Ranchlands Friar Tuck Ch ( In heaven) Windypines Sir Reginald Montgomery ( in heaven) National and Internation and sooo close Ch Ranchlands Duecs Wild ( In heaven) Windy Pines Mid-night Maxi ( In Heaven) Pallone Ranchlands Diamond Lil ( In Heaven) Winsomes Ranchlands Maid Marion GrCh. Ranchlands Windimup and Watchimgo Ranchlands Amazing Grace Ranchlands Kissed By An Angel Ranchlands And The Beat Goes on' Ranchlands Truly Scrumptious Ranchlands Rumor Has It Sylvans My Cherie D"Amour at Ranchlands. Ranchlands Bring on the Big Guns


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #184 
There is no Moral or Ethics or Religion, or Veterinarian that I know of that Condones the act of culling for anything other than a life of misery or pain or suffering.  I know of no Club that goes out on the line and says any of this..........I think they feel it just never needed to be addressed.  There are Human Clubs that believe in this, however the outrage has condemned them over the years and it strikes fear in our minds when they are mentioned.

I do not believe you must have any religion but understand the moral teaching all of them brought to the table.  They taught a moral way of living so people just did not do want they wanted or was convenient at the time.  Morals are taught and without them and laws there would be more of a chaotic world out there.  If we do not value life at a young stage , how can we value life when it is no longer breedable or showable?

There is no anger or accident that can happen where you loose your ethical being..........no one looses it...............they give it away freely. 


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #185 
There is right and there is wrong.....then all that pesky gray matter in between.
The dead horse is not the subject of culling but saying to someone who did something that they say they would never do again - I can't believe you did that etc. I think there are greater lessons to be learned in which I mean higher lessons strewed throughout the Amasha's response.  It is just too easy to see the obvious yet better in the long run to pay close attention to the numerous minute details.




Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #186 

You do not have to condemn the person but let's condemn the act!  There is a mind set in each individual and I will not judge the person..............but I will Judge the act if I disagree with it. 

Political correct does not work with me, and I can not let something so sad go by without viewing my opinion.  I feel very sorry that Amashia felt she had to do this, however the reason did not warrant the act if she did not then destroy the rest of the litter and the parents............so the reason given is not logical but more of Bullshit and shit is shit and it stinks.

Also it was only 7 years ago and the rest of us were grown and set in our ways--we do not change that much in 7 years!

DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #187 

Angie and Tracy,

Early on in regard to the subject of culling in this thread, I let my feeling be known about it.

But I did not vilify Amasha for her past actions. I wanted her to clarify her position on the matter.

In two different posts by Amasha, she gave statements that appeared contradictory.

In her last response to me she did make it clear where she stands on the issue. Her losing money over the last 20 years breeding Mastiffs have dictated her actions.

Maybe ANYONE that is worried about making or losing money breeding dogs should consider choosing a minature breed of dog that would be cheaper to feed, house, and medicate. 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #188 
Quote:
There is no anger or accident that can happen where you loose your ethical being..........no one looses it...............they give it away freely.


My dearest Deborah, you know I love you too and your strength of character plays a large role in my affections towards you but the human condition is plagued with falling grace. I once was lost but now am found.....etc.....it is why merciful gods are very popular and redemption is always offered as a last hope. You see, when someone is asked why they did something and their response is FEAR then I do believe they have come to the very core of the matter.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #189 

Angie and All, if Amasha had come forth and said she culled her pieds and at the time felt it was they only way because of pressures put on her and she regrets it because of the pain it was -IN THE BEGINNING.........there is NO BREEDER out there that would not have defended her to the end........but that is not how she said it.  I have never known a pup to gasp for one breath and not another, I have never rationalized the killing of pups that were pied and think it was fine on the rest who carry the Gene to live, this pretty word stuff and tugging at my heart when it is not logical just does not work for me.  You do not let the rest live in the area of Australia where the pied gene exist heavily and sell off those pups as breeding stock and then blame others.  If you sell them as pets then so could the pieds have been.  No there was no gray matter working there.

Now I must go for dog food so mine do not starve.

Kiokeemastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 371
Reply with quote  #190 
  I understand Amasha position--and I can accept her actions as based on what she felt was best for her dogs and the breed.  I applaud her candor and truthfullness for accepting responsibility.  She did what she thought and felt was best--she did not push it off onto someone else to deal with and correct--or place blame onto someone else.  Whether I agree is not the question--she was strong enough to do what she felt was best.  I respect her decision.

  Peer pressure and fear of a lost reputation can be a powerful motivation.  We see it function as such here in the US among Mastiff breeders.  Many have been known to "shoot, shovel, and shut-up" about their own breeding mistakes. Since the pond is much smaller in OZ--I would expect it to be even more vengeful.  I have seen it in action here in this forum and on others.  It's the old "let's make someone look bad so we look better" rationale.  Doesn't work or impress me.  Mud slinging eventually gets all who are involved quite dirty.

  Many years ago, when I showed and finished my long-hair girl--I recieved a lot of spitful  and hateful remarks.  I gave into peer pressure and never bred her.  A decision I regret.  Her lines have produced some of the best known and winningest dogs in our breed.  I regret that decision every day.

  There has been many a long-winded discussion on this forum as to and why Pieds & Long hairs should or should not be bred.  IMO a pied is much more than a cosmetic flaw--it is an unacceptable color with no way for a breeder to know of it's existance untill it appears--no DNA test exist to test dogs to eliminate it from our breeding pool.  Thus, to keep any pied and breed it is a disservice to our breed.

 In the past here in the US--many a breeder just dropped them in a bucket of water at birth--not a humane way but it did maintain  a cloak of secrecy.  No evidence that way. 

However, we do have a DNA test for long-hairs--which are much more prevalent in our breed-  and we can test and breed to decrease or eliminate them from our breeding pool.  Today, there is no reason why an exceptional long hair can not be used for breeding IF this test is utilized to assist the breeder in removeing the gene in the following generations. Long hair is truely a cosmetic fault and one we can breed to eliminate.  They are a vital part of our history and have contributed to many lines.

  I have chosen to breed to a long-hair and did so without reservation.   He iwas an exceptional dog and I consider myself lucky to have meet, known, and bred to him.  I am proud of the wonderful dogs I produced from my breedings (yes, I did it TWICE).   I WILL DO IT AGAIN IF I SO CHOSE TO DO SO.  A minor issue of coat length will not stop me from breeding to such a dog again.   As breeders, we must all take responsibility for our decsions and our actions--I'll take an exceptional longhair--over a medicore "short" coat any day.

  Now when are we going to begin persucuting breeders of EXTREMELY short, incorrrect coated dogs?  Those with a Dobe or a bullmastiff coat?  Those that LACK the "double coat slightly longer over the shoulders and down the back to hips"?  Let's hear everyone get so riled up about a LACK of correct coat--not just a SHORT coat.  There is a difference.

  Oh, I hear soap boxes across the internet beging pulled out..........

__________________
Catie C. Arney

"Stupid people Shouldn't breed; themselves or dogs."


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #191 
Here you go Catie LOL


hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #192 
Catie, thank you for ALWAYS standing up for what you believe, plus being woman enough to say it ! So many in our breed speak with forked tongues.
Culling pups or other animals could be likened to the Pro-life Pro-choice human issues which has, & will continue to cause controversy.
We should be broad minded enough to look at each situation! As there are variables to everything.
Culling has been done for centuries, & as Catie touched on, some of the ways are less than humane! Taking pups & dropping them off by dumpsters, or shooting them is "far crueler than euthansia by a licensed vet."
Honesty can sometimes carry a HEAVY price. I respect Amasha for putting herself out on a limb. And personally can vouch for her love & betterment of the breed.
Years ago, many breeders found it cruel that Ms.Ianthe Bell stipulated in her will that upon her death...ALL her Mastiffs were to be put down. I can see both sides to this as a longtime breeder of Mastiffs.
Once again, a thread starts off about a color or problem within the breed. Then, certain people jump on the personal attacks bandwagon.
(Guess it is the pack mentality.) I'm thankful we still have the right, in most situations, to make our own choices!!                Gloria

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,876
Reply with quote  #193 

Quote:

it is an unacceptable color with no way for a breeder to know of it's existence until it appears--no DNA test exist to test dogs to eliminate it from our breeding pool.  Thus, to keep any pied and breed it is a disservice to our breed.



Catie,

The ONLY thing that disturbs me, is when people were willing to freely breed to fluffs BEFORE the DNA test was available!

A society, or a breed goes to hell by degree! It doesn't happen all at once, it is the frog in the frying pan scenario. The frog never jumps out of the pan if the heat is increased by 1 degree at a time!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
NFS

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 556
Reply with quote  #194 
Amasha I do not under stand why you rubbish the Victorian club show Then try to put it up as the place to be.
and you know the reasons we do not show there.
It is the way the judges are pick and who they are picked for.

 You have been in the breed for what 35 years and have that many Champions.  what a wonderful average.

As for the Royals as you well know the Judges do not need to know the breed to be able to Judge them so it is easy to take 6 dogs that look similar and parade them up an down out side the ring before Judging to set a breed type.
 Let me remind you that Tailor was very Young when she wiped the floor with all your Grate dogs at Brisbane Royal maybe 9 months old at the time and then after the Judging the Judge said to me I really liked your Boy but just could not image him as a fawn.
What a grate judge they had for a Royal.

And then there was the Australian Mastiff clubs show at Canberra I am sure you remember that one as well it is the one that you demanded to have 10 minutes with the Judge before Judging so you could make sure she knew what to judge the dogs on and tell her who and what you were.
Lets see you had all your grate dogs there as well and I must say at the time you did have some nice dogs.
I think Grand Champion Mastdoch Dier Coady was 9 months old and took the C.C from all your dogs his sister Malibu then took Bitch C.C and they then won BOB and RU-BOB.
As for the Dogs that beat Terra at Brisbane good on them I am sure it made there day and something they will talk about for years to come.
Terra was in from on the day and showed well
 the judges choice is  was not what I would have done but I'm not pissed off about it That was what that Judge liked and he did what he wanted so what.

Amasha i do not want to fight with you I am sick of tit for tat You have had some nice dogs over the years but that does not make you a nice person.
 I do find it hard to believe that you asked Gloria to come over just to see my dogs sorry it did not work out for you.I am sure she is a nice lady and we just got off on the wrong foot
Best Regards.
peter 

__________________
Peter
N.F.S pet supplies
http://www.nfspetsupplies.com/


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #195 

I am pro life and I believe in abortions, so there.  I do not speak with a forked tongue and this is not to bash Amasha, this means I think it was wrong and to cry for the betterment of the breed does not wash we me.  If she had said in the beginning I did this, the pressure was too much for me on embarrassment and I now have the ability to stand and face any one and would not do it again--then I would stand by her thru thick and thin..........but that was not how it was said...........and again I will say a pied should not be bred but it should not be killed.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #196 
Catie you were wrong also in showing the long haired Fluff.

I like both of you and most people on a personal basis, but when the  choices you make are ones that you want and you alone make--that is selfish acts.  We can fool others some of the time, but let's not try to fool ourselves.  
DanH

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #197 
Well Deborah,

I'm not quite sure what to make of this thread. There certainly is interest in what has been talked about with over 7100 hits on the thread, but few contributing to the discussion.

Unfortunately, I don't believe many on this board wants the dirty laundry ( culling ) to be aired in public. Either that or it's simply apathy on the part of many. It would seem to me that the subject of whether healthy pups should be euthanized is every bit as important as some other topics that many people contribute to on this board.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,876
Reply with quote  #198 
Abortion vs pro life!

This is what we're really discussing!

At one point in history it was common for breeds like the Doberman to cull litters and that hard line approach created a breed that was very uniform in type.

Do the ends justify the means?

Can we cull without a kill?

Is the benefit towards type, more important than the moral loss of our collective humanity by the use of the culling process involved in death of otherwise healthy pups?

Views change over time and methods also change.

Emotional thinking is another story, but that's a topic for another thread!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
FluffyMastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 60
Reply with quote  #199 
I'm not a breeder, but to my mind, killing a healthy creature simply because it does not look like what the creator (that would be the breeder in this case) wants it to look like is wrong ~ in my opinion, that is.  For a person to deem a living creature unworthy of life simply because of a cosmetic flaw is nothing more than arrogance and to me shows a complete lack of respect for life.  If that is what it takes to be a breeder, than I'm quite happy that I don't have it in me to do so.  I'm also quite glad that I've met many breeders that DON'T feel this way and think that even those cosmetically challenged puppies deserve a happy home with people that will love them unconditionally.

__________________
Lisa
ToadHall

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 637
Reply with quote  #200 
Steve, thats an interesting point..I know even today many breeders of other breeds still cull by euthanasia or worse..and many breeders lessen the chances of survival for some newborn pups, which is a form of culling too.
I don't judge you Amasha, no one has had to walk in your shoes..
I do know downunder one has to be even more mindful of what one puts into the genepool, it is very limited. Its a smaller world down here, everyone knows what is going on with everyone elses dogs ..alot of the 'kettle calling the pot black'..so to speak. I wish there was a little more acceptance of some of the issues faced in the breed...especially from breeders..no lines are perfect...we all know this and say it....yet make mileage out of other breeders problems, revel in their misfortune. The breed might improve significantly overall ..in a different climate.

I think what I take from this thread is that there can be a heavy price to pay when you are a successful breeder, personally, mentally, emotionally, financially. Who of you has escaped this?


__________________
Karen Dyer
Toadhall Mastiffs
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/index.html
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply