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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #51 
"Approved Breeder" of their Council.  I am not even going to try and count the number of dogs produced, it would take all night.  Why breed so many????  Because the more you breed, the more money you can make off the puppies, that's why.  They don't care about AKC because it has nothing to do with profit, in fact, it would probably hinder business having to conform with actual common sense practices.  Why strive for a standard or trying to improve the standard when it is the Mastiff standard the has been used almost verbatim???
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #52 
Sorry forgot the link:

http://www.deepwoodmastiffs.com/A-Zpups.htm

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #53 
http://www.flyingwfarms.com/01%20DOGS_Alphabetical_Listing.htm
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #54 


Sorry, Kristie, again, I only now saw this:

Quote:
I have been blocked from all pages and sites, I called and emailed and ousted breeder from their camp and got no response.  I am trying like hell to get proof of these claims from the breeders and their council, that is all it would take to shut me up, but they never respond except to ban me.  What exactly is it they want to hide so badly?!?!!?  The MCOA COE is up all over the internet for people to see, links to health testing are all over the place as well.


If I may ask, how did you frame your questions? Were they neutral, or could they have been perceived as 'bashing"? I ask as my experience has been that Linda is very tolerant of behaviour that is unacceptable on many other boards.

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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #55 
I never made it into any of the Forums.  Michelle runs all of them and banned and blocked me before I could even try to get on one.  She banned me from everything in response to a thread on this forum.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #56 
As for the ousted breeder, I left messages and sent an email or two asking very politely if I could talk to him about the lawsuit he was in with the breeders council.  The lawsuit itself is pretty astonishing....
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Secondly, if there is no Old English Mastiff, or English Mastiff -- just the 'Mastiff', please help me understand how/why the appellation "American Mastiff' seems to be such an emotional issue.


The American Mastiff represents the Mastiff in America, not a different breed!

For example, the Pug name was first recorded in M. Bailey's dictionary in 1731, it was an affectionate insult, in that it meant imp, or dwarf. Prior to that (1688 in Britain) it was affectionately referred to as the Dutch Mastiff.

The Dutch Mastiff did not copy the Mastiff proper in size, or in total looks, but there was the similar coloring & coat, which enabled the name to be used without offense by Mastiff fanciers.

The English Foxhound vs American Foxhound represented different breed forms and hence the different names for those breeds here & abroad.

The Mastiff in America & in England are the same breed. Therefore, the name American Mastiff, posses a confusing meaning to the genuine Mastiff in America.

Add that, to the literature put out by the AMMA people, which further confuses the general populace with erroneous claims & identifications. Couple that, to the cross being, in some instances, very much like the Mastiff proper to the untrained eye. This further blurs the identity of the genuine article from the counterfeit and adds fake credibility to the AMMA camp.

It would have been bad enough to call their cross the American Anatolian Mastiff, but at least it would have distanced the cross from our perspective.

To call the cross an American Mastiff, is obviously a ruse to capitalize on our long established breed with impunity.

Once done, the backlash from the genuine Mastiff community is met with disdain & repugnance from the AMMA fanciers, as though we have injured them and not the other way about.

It's why I likened it to some in the Muslim community, who blamed us for the acts committed by those they erroneously support.

Both practices are identical in formulation & thinking, if not in deed. Obviously a highly charged comparative for some, but without linkage to any universal state of mind just as reference.

I might add, that those who cloud the illustration with emotional comparatives and then project that it is my irrational emotions at play, need to look in places closer to their own home for answers.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
She banned me from everything in response to a thread on this forum.

Kristy, I am truly very sorry to hear this happened to you!

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
They are NOT seeking AKA recognition


Very big of them!

I'm not seeking a Presidential endorsement either!

Their cross would never gain AKC recognition!

Especially with the AKC vice chair being a MCOA delegate!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
I might add, that those who cloud the illustration with emotional comparatives and then project that it is my irrational emotions at play, need to look in places closer to their own home for answers.


I must assume you mean me. I did not 'cloud' the illustration -- which you very vividly depicted, and which contained a comparator to the WTC devastation, which would be considered highly emotional by most Americans -- and followed this up with a series of highly emotive declarations. There was no need to project at all -- it was all there in black and white. However, I also think it is highly unprofessional and inappropriate to continue this on a public forum. If you wish to pursue this, please contact me privately.

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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #61 
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Very big of them!

I'm not seeking a Presidential endorsement either!

Their cross would never gain AKC recognition!

Especially with the AKC vice chair being a MCOA delegate!


Ah, what a lovely and convenient tool sarcasm is.....The primary point is how do you perceive them as posing any kind of a threat?

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #62 
First, I placed a picture to show the difference in head types in that one individual, which contradicts their wording comparing the Mastiff to their cross.

You accused me of mocking, when in truth it was a simple illustration of differences in breeds.

Next, the following statement is what I said:

"Perhaps Americans also caused the destruction of the WTC, at least it's the storyline used by those who destroy American property & American lives."

I used this highly charged comparative, for some, to illustrate how irrational blaming the victim can be!

It was you who decided to call me irrational for using the comparative. Was that stated publicly, or privately? So why am I being unprofessional and inappropriate in responding to your accusations publicly?

Strong points produced in type, does not validate an overly emotional response, or state. It can mean that, but it's not in stone!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #63 
I did not accuse you of mocking when you posted the picture depicting the differences in head types -- I actually found that interesting. I said you were 'mocking out' the pictures of the dogs when you you stated 'Just like Mastiffs but without the drool'. (paraphrasing as, please forgive me but it is now almost midnight and I have spent the day defending my views against you and your friends, and I am now quite tired).

Perhaps Americans also caused the destruction of the WTC, at least it's the storyline used by those who destroy American property & American lives."
I used this highly charged comparative, for some, to illustrate how irrational blaming the victim can be!

And I agree it was and is a highly charged comparative that is inappropriate for the scale of the 'transgression' involving the two canine organisations. There is significant complexity in the relationships of Western and Eastern cultures and sub-cultures, that is simply not present in the AMMA/Mastiff organisation controversy.

It was you who decided to call me irrational for using the comparative.
I did not call you irrational at that point, I said that the emotionalism you expressed made it difficult to pursue a reasoned discussion. When you followed that up with the impassioned statements of your post #15, I did say I did say I thought you were acting irrationally -- but it was not at all about your'comparative'.

Was that stated publicly, or privately? So why am I being unprofessional and inappropriate in responding to your accusations publicly?

Here is what you just stated:
I might add, that those who cloud the illustration with emotional comparatives and then project that it is my irrational emotions at play, need to look in places closer to their own home for answers. That, in my mind is a very personal and psychologically delicate subject that could best be pursued privately, more for your benefit than mine. I still have a professional oath 'to do no harm' to uphold.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
The primary point is how do you perceive them as posing any kind of a threat?


The threats are multiplicitous (sic)..........

(i) Confusing the potential Mastiff buyer & public perception.

(ii) Depleting revenues of Mastiff breeders.

(iii) Increased rescues, euthanasia & negative press.

(iv) Erroneous claims

(v) Clueless converts


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #65 
Where are the data for the above?
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #66 
The information & data are out there if homework is done.

If I were pursuing a legal case, it would be put together, rest assured!

All one need do is ask some Mastiff breeders as to the impact & explanations they make to the clueless public.

I believe H provided a small example as he was walking his Mastiff.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #67 
I did not accuse you of mocking when you posted the picture depicting the differences in head types -- I actually found that interesting. I said you were 'mocking out' the pictures of the dogs when you you stated 'Just like Mastiffs but without the drool'. (paraphrasing as, please forgive me but it is now almost midnight and I have spent the day defending my views against you and your friends, and I am now quite tired). It's 1:55 PM and I'm still going strong!...LOL

Perhaps Americans also caused the destruction of the WTC, at least it's the storyline used by those who destroy American property & American lives."
I used this highly charged comparative, for some, to illustrate how irrational blaming the victim can be!

And I agree it was and is a highly charged comparative that is inappropriate for the scale of the 'transgression' involving the two canine organisations. There is significant complexity in the relationships of Western and Eastern cultures and sub-cultures, that is simply not present in the AMMA/Mastiff organisation controversy. The thinking in both instances are quite similar, despite the stimulating trigger of the WTC. Why get hung up on the diversion, instead of seeing the point?

It was you who decided to call me irrational for using the comparative.
I did not call you irrational at that point, I said that the emotionalism you expressed made it difficult to pursue a reasoned discussion. When you followed that up with the impassioned statements of your post #15, I did say I did say I thought you were acting irrationally -- but it was not at all about your'comparative'. I didn't start the labels directed at me and never initiated any at you.

Was that stated publicly, or privately? So why am I being unprofessional and inappropriate in responding to your accusations publicly?

Here is what you just stated:
I might add, that those who cloud the illustration with emotional comparatives and then project that it is my irrational emotions at play, need to look in places closer to their own home for answers. That, in my mind is a very personal and psychologically delicate subject that could best be pursued privately, more for your benefit than mine. I still have a professional oath 'to do no harm' to uphold. My alleged emotional state was purely your speculation and your response was inaccurate, agitated & public.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #68 

Quote #64 'The Mastiff in America & in England are the same breed.'

Nope . The Mastiff in America has (since 1941) a significantly different standard . An English judge in America has to follow not the English but the , repeat , significantly different American standard , period .


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MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #69 

Quote ‘These are NOT different breeds’ .

So why are there significantly different standards (each of them to be considered as the blueprint of the subject thereto) ?

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #70 
Hyperbole is an exaggeration to create emphasis or effect. In this instance, there was no exaggeration regarding the same type of thinking when blaming the victim.

Had I stated that the crimes of the AMMA fanciers are the same as those who destroyed the WTC, then it would have been hyperbole and irrational!

Using an emotionally charged subject, does not mean that subject has been exaggerated, or distorted.

If seen as such by some, it's why I suggested, that those who are highly reactive to the topic, had best look within instead of without!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #71 
I understand Marcel's point and I would make a case for increased variability, due to the opposing standards, but at the same time, I do agree with Erika's technical perspective on breed solidarity, despite differences in standards.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #72 
A technical perspective is also that Mastiffs on the sly have been crossed with other breeds and have produced REGISTERED offspring that (over time) may happen to win laurels in both countries .
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #73 
The key words are..... on the sly!

Had it been above board, one could make a case for a separate breed, providing the traits from the cross were continued, and presented a noticeable diversion from the original standard ideal.

I have no problem if someone created an American Anatolian Mastiff and did not state it was basically the same as the Mastiff. It would also have to look different from the Mastiff and not just in slight variability.

You can't take a Mercedes and just change the name, or symbolic 3 pointed star, there has to be distinctive recognizable differences at first glance in order to create a new brand. Where the differences are too close, the knockoff company gets sued by the original company.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #74 
Let’s put it this way – In case American breeders had followed up consistently the American standard since its inception (1941) , then present-day American Mastiffs as a whole should be recognized as a breed different to that of those bred continuously following the English standard .
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #75 
One could certainly make a case under that hypothetical.


Of related interest............

http://www.akita-inu.com/split.htm

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:

Truthfully Erika, because personally, I am not deeply and emotionally invested in this conflict. Even if I were, I have other life priorities at the moment
. I was speaking narrowly about the ongoing, and escalating conflict between this organisation and the AMMA organisation. Full stop. Specifically, I responded to the statement:
 
Quote:
 (Steve said): The owners should be made FULLY AWARE that their dogs are not mastiffs, that they do not look like mastiffs, and that they may not act like mastiffs
(..and I said) I don't disagree with this. However, in my mind the key question is which strategy/tactics have the highest likelihood of creating this awareness -- or even the motivation to investigate a breed/individual more thoroughly.  I really don't believe the answer lies in continuing and escalating conflict.


I then asked questions about what had been done and what, if anything had been effective. And yes, I made some suggestions. I do have considerable experience in managing difficult and emotional PR issues, and my intention was to be helpful. If I had absolutely not cared, I would not have bothered to offer any thoughts at all.

Quote:
 As someone who DOES care, and who is vested, I don't much appreciate a critique of conduct from someone who is a dilettante on the issue.
Well, as someone once told me, change the chanel or turn the tv off ...
 
Quote:
What you fail (or have decided is not high enough priority to recognize) is that cross bred mastiffs appear in shelters, on craig's list, on kijiji, on pet sales sites all the time - more and more and more EVERY SINGLE DAY.
That is probably very true and heartbreaking, but not relevant to my comments.


Quote:
There are no papers, there are no "breeders" to return these dogs to, they do not "stand" for themselves literally or figuratively

I was speaking about our Mastiffs,not AMMAs and the context was  reasons why our Mastiff is not under any kind of 'threat' from AMMAs. Here is what I said, as a complete thought:

Quote:
Additionally, I don't think our Mastiffs require 'protection'. They stand and (figuratively) speak for themselves.
I believe our Mastiffs are beautiful and highly distinctive in appearance, as well as being a breed of ancient, and noble origins -- or at least antecedents -- which has been disseminated world-wide. They are recognised by the (UK) Kennel Club, the AKC, the UKC and many other country specific and reputable registering organisations, which sponsor shows and various kinds of competitions. Hence our Mastiffs are visible and in the public eye. There are tens of  thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of breeders world-wide.
I don't perceive 'American Mastiffs' posing any kind of threat or challenge to our breed.


I did not in any way reference the rescue needs of dogs, which is a different, though I agree  important, dimension to this discussion.

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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Had I stated that the crimes of the AMMA fanciers are the same as those who destroyed the WTC, then it would have been hyperbole and irrational!
Using an emotionally charged subject, does not mean that subject has been exaggerated, or distorted.
If seen as such by some, it's why I suggested, that those who are highly reactive to the topic, had best look within instead of without!


My observation is that you have restated this several times, thus far. What outcome, if any, are you seeking?


I am quite happy to move into other areas of discussion

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #78 
Karen, I was responding to Erika's use of hyperbole in that post.

Look, I fully understand how things get complacent and as time passes, wrongs become mainstreamed and accommodated.

Using a highly charged reference (ie. WTC), reinvigorates the topic and keeps it current.

You trend on reducing any controversy in this matter and by your questions, it reflects my belief, that you feel there are no consequences to the Mastiff community by legitimiizing the cross and it's name.

It's my contention that the topic should remain an issue, until a time when the AMMA people acknowledge their moral transgression to our breed and amend the name chosen for their cross. To date, there has been absolutely no admission of any wrong done to the genuine Mastiff, it's image, or it's domain, by the AMMA group, or any member thereof.

Yet, that same group, has the audacity to feel that the Panja (American Mastiff) can have an impact on their creation, simply due to a similar name used by that breed. Can you imagine their outcry if the Panja actually resembled their cross, but with even less drool?????

Does it sound hypocritical? It does to this poster!

http://americanmastifffamily.net/faq.htm

Please read from this site.

They will claim behavioral issues due to the Panja heritage (i.e. Alpha), yet will not acknowledge any behavioral red flags, due to the Anatolian cross inserted into their creation! A flood of contradictions in their wording and a read between the lines effort to disparage the Mastiff proper in favor of their glorified creation, which BTW has a cloudy heritage of it's own.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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You trend on reducing any controversy in this matter and by your questions, it reflects my belief, that you feel there are no consequences to the Mastiff community by legitimiizing the cross and it's name.

It's my contention that the topic should remain an issue,


I have absolutely no argument with keeping a subject such as this before the 'forum gaze'.

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I've been following this thread with great interest.  Unlike many of this forum, I don't consider myself a breed purist and I'm not particularly adverse to the creation of new breeds by combining others, though I would hope a great deal of thought would go into their planning.  Whether we want to face the fact or not, all manmade breeds started that very way and I think time and fixed type is what eventually grandfathers them in to acceptance.

That said... I paid particular attention to the naming issue which, in my mind, may be the biggest sticking point, that along with the claimed attributes of a breed which I don't believe has had sufficient generations to have a true reliable "type".

I've long advocated that our Mastiffs have their name officially changed to English Mastiffs but have had it explained to me that this would result in a universally confusing and burdensome bureaucratic process.  Since that will not or cannot be done, I think I must agree that the naming of a breed American Mastiff is a very misleading and inaccurate.  A more accurate name would be Anatolian Mastiffs as they are a combination of a breed that originated in the middle east, Anatolia, and a breed that originated in England.

The problem with the word "Mastiff" is that it is both the name of an AKC breed and a term often used to describe very large dogs, Molossers.  I wish my patent attorney father was still alive because I'd love to ask, if we were to change to English Mastiff, whether the name could be copyrighted.  Maybe someone here knows the answer.  Since the word "Mastiff" seems to be a general term as well as a specific one, I don't think the confusion over the name of our breed is ever going to go away.  

My personal opinion is that it is way too early in breed development to make any claims as to type, either physical or in temperament, of what is being called an American Mastiff.  In rescue, we have actually seen a number of them and the inconsistency that I often complain about in our own Mastiff breed doesn't even come close to the diversity I've seen in AM's.

Anyway, just random thoughts and I probably should have waited until I had them better organized in my head before posting them.  :)

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Regarding our impatience with the question of "what kind of Mastiff" we English Mastiff owners have, I get as tired of it as anyone but, if we step out of our own little boxes occasionally, we can see that it's not all that illogical a question.

Were I not knowledgable about dog breeds and happened to see a dog I admired and asked the owner what kind of dog it was and received the response "shepherd", wouldn't my logical next question be, "What kind?"  

That's the problem I've always had with the name "Mastiff" for our breed.  Just as "shepherd" is an indicator of the dog's original purpose, that of a herding dog, "Mastiff" can accurately be used to describe a large sturdily built dog.

A little patience with the public is probably in order and... who knows... if we get so fed up with the ambiguity of the name, maybe we'll finally do the logical thing and change it to English Mastiff.  :)

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Quote:
Anyway, just random thoughts and I probably should have waited until I had them better organized in my head before posting them.  :)


Imo,anyway, this was an interesting, valuable and welcome contribution to the discussion.

I agree that, given the antecedents of the neophyte breed, a more accurate name would have been 'Anatolian Mastiff' -- and that choice could have entirely avoided the bitter conflict that has arisen. The current conundrum is (obviously) that the name 'American Mastiff' has been taken.

Quote:
The problem with the word "Mastiff" is that it is both the name of an AKC breed and a term often used to describe very large dogs, Molossers.

Agreed, as well. I belong to another forum, titled "The Mastiff Forum", which describes itself as a 'community for the discussion of Molosser breeds'. Additionally, whenever I am asked which breed my dog is, and I respond "Mastiff", the further query is invariably 'which one?'. This (again invariably) leads to a conversation in which a). I explain that my dog's fore-bearers were English Mastiffs, but in this country our official nomenclature is simply 'Mastiff'. (This frequently creates the impression that my "Mastiff' is some kind of hybrid or a lesser branch of the English Mastiff 'tree'); or b). I say he is an English Mastiff.



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Reply with quote  #83 
Karen,
We were typing at the same time!

Quote:
A little patience with the public is probably in order and... who knows... if we get so fed up with the ambiguity of the name, maybe we'll finally do the logical thing and change it to English Mastiff.  :)


I agree and fervently hope!

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I have to also say that I concur with the post that suggested that the AM was "built on the back" of the Mastiff and, much as I try to remind myself that most of today's breeds were built on the backs of other ones, something in my gut is a little resentful.  I suppose it feels as if function has been omitted as a factor in the creation of the AM, relying instead on the hard earned strengths of two inherently different breeds.  

I suppose I'd feel a lot better about it all if the creators of the AM would elaborate on the intended function of the breed.  The only intent I've heard elaborated over and over was to create a dry-mouthed Mastiff.  I'll give the benefit of the doubt that there was more motivation than that.  

My personal jury's still out and IMO, only time will tell but the dye's been cast and there's no getting it back in the bottle now.

  

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Reply with quote  #85 
And then what becomes of the American English Mastiff?

Would not some enterprising crazy name the next cross an American English Mastiff?

At some point, people have to recognize, that it's morally reprehensible what AMMA people have done.

Why should WE have to dance to their whip, change a time honored name, ignore historical references and abandon our rightful claims to the Mastiff moniker?

As a WW11 general once remarked.....................NUTS!!!

Speaking of nuts................

Perhaps the creation of an American English Mastiff will be justified, because it will be a tailless version of the proposed English Mastiff & AMMA and was created by some guy who is tired of constantly getting sore testicles!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #86 
I figured you were chomping at the bit.  :)  I was advocating changing it to English Mastiff years ago.  It's just common sense but, as I understand it, that would take an act of  congress of all of the national parent clubs or we would end up with separate breeds (as if we haven't already) and further warned that the world as we know it would come to an end in a cataclysmic explosion if we even attempted it.

As I tried to explain in an earlier post (apparently very poorly) "mastiff" can be and is used as generally as "shepherd", making them both ambiguous and unprotectable (which apparently isn't even a word, damnit!).

I'm tired!  Good night!!!   


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
And then what becomes of the American English Mastiff?

Would not some enterprising crazy name the next cross an American English Mastiff?

At some point, people have to recognize, that it's morally reprehensible what AMMA people have done.

Why should WE have to dance to their whip, change a time honored name, ignore historical references and abandon our rightful claims to the Mastiff moniker?

As a WW11 general once remarked.....................NUTS!!!

Speaking of nuts................

Perhaps the creation of an American English Mastiff will be justified, because it will be a tailless version of the proposed English Mastiff & AMMA and was created by some guy who is tired of constantly getting sore testicles!

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A
Quote:
t some point, people have to recognize, that it's morally reprehensible what AMMA people have done.
Why should WE have to dance to their whip, change a time honored name, ignore historical references and abandon our rightful claims to the Mastiff moniker?


Then, what would you propose as the way forward, exactly?

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Reply with quote  #88 
The name change to English Mastiff was taken up by the MCOA several years ago, because of the AMMA controversy. It was voted down by the membership and in my opinion rightfully so!

Had I been President of the club, within the period before statute limitations kicked in protecting the AMMA from litigation, the American Mastiff would not be an issue today.

This slipped through the cracks of those who were supposed to be protecting the Mastiff name.

It's why I argue on moral grounds at present, since legal involvement will just drain the club financially and the chances of success are slim at best.

Quote:
Then, what would you propose as the way forward, exactly?


First of all, a unified front must first be established. It's difficult enough to confront another group, without members of your own group standing in the way.


Many fail to see the long term negative ramifications of this designer breed, with it's identical Mastiff moniker on the genuine Mastiff in America.

Many approach this subject with their hearts, instead of their heads. They think of the Flying W creation and feel sorry for the criticism of innocents (i.e. the dogs) and lose sight of the harm the people behind the dogs have done to an entire legitimate community of Mastiff fanciers.

So until our own Mastiff fanciers wake up and smell the roses, there can be no forward movement.

It's my view, that if there was a unified organized protest made to the owners of the AMMA, breeders of the AMMA and clubs that sanction it's name, including the CKC, we might get some movement by the AMMA groups to amend the name to something other than American Mastiff. If enough money was raised by Mastiff fanciers, we could take legal action if necessary and place financial pressure, through a series of litigations on the AMMA group, in order to adopt another name.

Why should we have to change a time honored name? Or, continue to be asked erroneous questions, by an ever increasing confused public, as to why American Mastiffs are healthier, longer lived, less drooling improvements of the original & genuine Mastiff!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #89 
http://americanmastiffbreederscouncil.com/American%20Mastiff-History%20of%20the%20Breed.htm

It clearly states SELECTIVE BREEDING.

Yet, there is confusion as to who the foundation dogs were!

How selective is that?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #90 
MORE GRIST>>>>>>>>>

http://mastiffdogssite.com/American-Mastiff.php

American Mastiff-The Hybrid

 

The American Mastiff is a huge dog with a characteristic wide rectangular head. Its eyes are generally amber colored; however, one can find variation in shades. Most kinds also have moderate muzzles which fit well with the head size. This breed may come in various shades of brown and black. It is interesting to note that the muzzle can be black or white and the color extends down to the breast and the underbelly. Generally, its ears are large and soft and droop lifelessly on the sides of the head. However, ears can be cropped into various patterns and shapes the notable ones being triangular.

American Mastiff puppyThe American Mastiff is officially recognized as a designer breed and has been around for less than a quarter of a century. This breed was created by cross breeding the Anatolian shepherd breed with a pure bred English Mastiff (Original Mastiff). Its creation was based on the need to create a breed that was of free of the common deficiencies in Mastiff and also make them more resistant to diseases.

This breed has more qualities of an English Mastiff than the Anatolian breed from which it also descended. Therefore, some individuals have referred to the American Mastiff as the “new” or “refined” breed which is not actually an accurate observation as far as the breed’s heritage is concerned. They were created purely for domestication purposes and so it is common to find them in many American homes. Although their value is at par with that of the true Mastiff, their propagation and acceptance has been quite controversial.

This breed has a broad chest which is quite deep and extends quite low to the elbows. The limbs are well boned and developed and hold a remarkable mass of muscles. Both legs are strong and provide firm support for this heavy breed.  Its back is medium in length and straight. The toes are arched and provide grip when the dog is in motion. On average, the male American Mastiff weighs between 160-200 lbs while the female one weighs between 140-180 lbs.

 Although this is a less temperamental and less troublesome breed, this should not be misconstrued for docility. On some occasions it can be quite aggressive and so good care and handling is necessary to keep them in good mood.
The American Mastiff can be quite aggressive from 8 months of age to 2 years when its dentition is developing and it is responding to the changes by exhibiting savage tendencies. It is believed because they carry the genes of the Anatolian shepherd, a watchdog, this Mastiff develops innate guarding traits. Just like all guarding dogs which are inclined to aggression, this Mastiff can be quite hard to manage if it is not trained properly from an early age. So an experienced dog handler is required for the fast maturing breed.

An American Mastiff does not possibly breed a pure progeny because of its mixed ancestry. So, one cannot possibly predict the outcome of the physical features of the new progeny of puppies. Aspects such a coat color and body shape maybe shared or mixed between the traits of the ancestor breeds in its heritage line. There has been some contention on mixing this breed with other because of the unpredictable nature of behavior of the cross breed that will arise.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #91 
http://kiokeemastiffscom.blogspot.com/2008/01/american-mastiff-is-not-mastiff.html

Very informative!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #92 
Steve!  I think you are seeing my responses as aiding and abetting the enemy or, at a minimum, standing in the way of the club seeking resolution to this conflict.  I'm simply trying to be a voice of reason and attempting to differentiate between that which is actionable behavior on the part of AMMA and that which is only "morally reprehensible" and a perpetual irritant.

I see two possible solutions at this point in time though I'm sure there are others that I haven't thought of that don't involve stomping our feet and throwing a temper tantrum.

1.  Consider, yet again, changing the name of our breed to English Mastiff based on the argument that "Mastiff" is a generic term as well as breed specific.  For this to be done, emotions will have to be put aside and parent clubs worldwide will have to agree which will be a very difficult task since the American Mastiff is a much greater perceived threat here, in America, than in other countries.

2.  File a preemptive request with the AKC that no breed named American Mastiff be accepted as an AKC approved breed.  If that could be done successfully (and it's a big IF), it might force the AMMA into reconsideration of its name, especially if its long term goal is eventual acceptance into AKC.  I believe this would require the services of an intellectual property attorney -- and I'm not sure it's even do-able as we don't own the name "American Mastiff" though, perhaps, that's another avenue of approach.  Possibly, we could copyright the name, thus preventing anyone else from using it without ever having to put it into use ourselves.

Please don't put me in the enemy's camp.  I am decidedly not but I do think cooler heads are called for here and I have a hard time calling people who have acted with little thought and questionable motives the Devil's spawn.

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Reply with quote  #93 
Both suggestions will not hold water and no one is telling you to demonize other folks.

The reality, is that a fabricated cross, created to usurp the notoriety and $$$$ away from the genuine article, under the guise of less drool, has done damage to the Mastiff proper in various ways described earlier.

The burden of guilt & change must be directed upon the perpetrator of the act, not the victim!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #94 
Stop for a moment and think like an attorney.  (1) Why don't the suggestions hold water?  (2) Can you prove that the motivation for creating the AM was to "usurp the notoriety and $$ away from the genuine article" rather than an innocent experiment in creating what the innovator considered, rightly or wrongly, an improved breed?  And, if so, how is that actionable behavior?  (3) Can you show tangible damages done to either our breed or its producers?  (4) With "stand your ground" being in such favor these days (not that I'm an advocate), isn't there some responsibility on the part of the victim to do something to prevent further harm to self?  I can stand there and throw a temper tantrum screaming, "They're hurting me!" or I can walk away, assuming I have the legs to carry me, and do something to prevent future beatings.

To echo the spirit of the "enemy" on the forum, what resolution would you propose from this point forward?  

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
Both suggestions will not hold water and no one is telling you to demonize other folks.

The reality, is that a fabricated cross, created to usurp the notoriety and $$$$ away from the genuine article, under the guise of less drool, has done damage to the Mastiff proper in various way described earlier.

The burden of guilt & change must be directed upon the perpetrator of the act, not the victim!

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Reply with quote  #95 
Stop for a moment and think like an attorney.  (1) Why don't the suggestions hold water?  Just being realistic! The vote was in favor of no change in name and the AKC won't accept the AMMA for the foreseeable future.(2) Can you prove that the motivation for creating the AM was to "usurp the notoriety and $$ away from the genuine article" rather than an innocent experiment in creating what the innovator considered, rightly or wrongly, an improved breed? Anyone can say their designer breed is an improved version over the original. The fact is, that through false & misleading advertising and a standard that was very close to our own, it is obvious as to why the nebulous cross was used to create a new breed. Let's face it, it was created during modern times and to not have clear definitive records as to where these foundation dogs originated, is a clear act of negligence and not a controlled act with a thoughtful game plan. If it was the result of an innocent experiment done by a BYB, then let's call it that, but it's gone way beyond the innocent stage. It is now being promoted as a monumental achievement and includes the discounting of breeds that show, as though breeding for pet quality is an ideal! And, if so, how is that actionable behavior? Damages done to branded products are actionable against those counterfeit goods producers.  (3) Can you show tangible damages done to either our breed or its producers?  Yes! (4) With "stand your ground" being in such favor these days (not that I'm an advocate), isn't there some responsibility on the part of the victim to do something to prevent further harm to self? Within the law only. But on moral grounds, it's up to the offender to make things right!  I can stand there and throw a temper tantrum screaming, "They're hurting me!" or I can walk away, assuming I have the legs to carry me, and do something to prevent future beatings. Speaking out on the topic is a way of stimulating awareness and educating potential Mastiff buyers from making the wrong choice. It's why many Mastiff breeders have added a disclaimer and article about the counterfeit cross to their web pages.

To echo the spirit of the "enemy" on the forum, what resolution would you propose from this point forwardI'm open for viable suggestions and in prior postings, I have given my views on an organized effort to pressure for change.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #96 

I'm sorry, my friend, but the more we debate this, the clearer it becomes to me that the only viable option that has any chance at success is to change our breed's official name to "English Mastiff".  It is not an impossible or uncommon process.  Russian Wolfhounds were changed to Borzoi and, quite recently, the Jack Russell was changed to Parson Russell.  Other breeds have gone through similar changes though I couldn't recount them off the top of my head. 

The difficulty as was explained to me (by people who, like who, are emotionally committed to the simple "Mastiff") was that it would require extraordinary cooperation and effort on the part of all national parent clubs.  I don't think we should be proclaiming it can't be done until  reasonable research and effort are put into doing it.

I'm certain a poll would reveal that Mastiff owners in Europe, Asia, Australia, etc. are all tired of the queries and most would admit to saying it is an English Mastiff up front if only to avoid the next predictable series of questions.

I understand you don't like it.  I understand it isn't "fair".  I understand you feel boxed into taking an action you don't think you should have to take but, long before the American Mastiff reared its head, some of us were advocating renaming our breed.  It made sense then and makes more sense now.


As to your responses, "It can't be done", "We've tried that", "Why should we" and "It's not fair" don't reflect an attitude of being "open for viable suggestions" and, quite honestly, many of the disclaimers I've read on various breeders' web sites have a very defensive and almost militant tone that, if I were searching for a puppy, would lead me to suspect those breeders may have issues beyond the creation of this new designer breed and to suspect that there is some component of jealousy or loss of monetary gain involved.  I'm just not sure that those disclaimers as they are written accomplish anything and may, in fact, produce exactly the opposite effect of the one we are seeking by making buyers aware that, hey, there is a cheaper version of basically the same dog out there and those people aren't so snooty and defensive.

Ok, enough.  My closing argument is done.  You may approach the jury.  


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Reply with quote  #97 
I said we've tried that, because we have tried that!

Change does not easily occur internationally, especially if we Americans are absorbing the first salvo of the impact.

My tenacity is not based on emotion, it's based on my objective views on the subject and my sense of fair play and right & wrong.

A viable suggestion must be based on realistic expectations, otherwise, it's like saying all the Israelis & Palestinians have to do is sign an agreement and the conflict will end. Changing the name to English Mastiff is simplistic, but unrealistic among other things.

There will still be confusion as long as there is an American Mastiff, represented by a cross, and promoted by people who distort reality.

The Mastiff in America IS the ONLY American Mastiff. Not this latest wannabe.

The earliest club in America was called the American Mastiff Club.

Not the American English Mastiff club! Or, the English Mastiff Club of America!

The Old English Mastiff Club did not reflect the true name of the breed and has created enough confusion over the years, without changing names in the here & now!

Some still believe that there is an Old English Mastiff!

Why continue to increase this confusion?

The breed is simply .....Mastiff.

The cross should be an American Anatolian Mastiff.

It would be a lot easier to insert Anatolian into their referenced name, than for the entire Mastiff world to accommodate to their unauthorized intrusion!

I might add, that it would alleviate, or dramatically reduce the hostilities, if coupled to removing bogus claims about erroneous comparatives to the Mastiff proper.

Is there a debate going on in the AMMA community about this?

Are they just upset about our grievances and react with total indifference?

Do they accept, or understand the validity of our arguments, or just consider us snobs?

Or, do they just go about their business defying & ignoring any truths to the case we bring to the table?




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #98 
I swore I was through with this thread but debating with you always brings out my less desirable gotta-have-the-last-word quality.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer
I said we've tried that, because we have tried that!

Change does not easily occur internationally, especially if we Americans are absorbing the first salvo of the impact.

My tenacity is not based on emotion, it's based on my objective views on the subject and my sense of fair play and right & wrong.

A viable suggestion must be based on realistic expectations, otherwise, it's like saying all the Israelis & Palestinians have to do is sign an agreement and the conflict will end. Changing the name to English Mastiff is simplistic, but unrealistic among other things.

There will still be confusion as long as there is an American Mastiff, represented by a cross, and promoted by people who distort reality.

The Mastiff in America IS the ONLY American Mastiff. Not this latest wannabe.

The earliest club in America was called the American Mastiff Club.

Was that name copyrighted or otherwise legally protected?  In other words, is it a possible loophole?

Not the American English Mastiff club! Or, the English Mastiff Club of America!

The Old English Mastiff Club did not reflect the true name of the breed and has created enough confusion over the years, without changing names in the here & now!

Some still believe that there is an Old English Mastiff!

Why continue to increase this confusion?

The breed is simply .....Mastiff.

The cross should be an American Anatolian Mastiff.

It would be a lot easier to insert Anatolian into their referenced name, than for the entire Mastiff world to accommodate to their unauthorized intrusion!

This is a wonderful idea!  Did anyone ever present it to the AMMA folks... in a manner that invoked a spirit of working together rather than contention?  (I don't recall hearing of a friendly sit-down to explain how nomenclature was causing us problems but possibly I missed it.)  If not, since a book has now been published and the "breed" is catching on, it may be too late.  Can we learn anything from this?

I might add, that it would alleviate, or dramatically reduce the hostilities, if coupled to removing bogus claims about erroneous comparatives to the Mastiff proper.

Assuming the unlikely occurred and they did agree to a name change, I think we would have to content ourselves with that.  Requesting the removal of vague "bogus" claims might be a stretch... for now. 

Is there a debate going on in the AMMA community about this?

Are they just upset about our grievances and react with total indifference?

Do they accept, or understand the validity of our arguments, or just consider us snobs?

Or, do they just go about their business defying & ignoring any truths to the case we bring to the table?

In light of the tone with which we are debating this and the ferocity of some of our disclaimers, I'm guessing they're feeling equally offended and as defensive as we are, if not more so and I'm further guessing we are the ones who started the negativity by our reaction to something they were initially unaware had farther reaching repercussions.  

The longer this adversarial approach continues, the less likely it is that there will ever be any degree of contrition.  If all we're seeking is a good fight, we're certainly on the right path.  If we truly want to make any progress rather than just an excuse to bitch and moan, where is the effort to work with rather than counter to?      





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Karen K.
http://www.MastiffsVonHimmel.com

Southern States Mastiff Rescue: http://www.SouthernStatesMastiffRescue.org
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #99 
Quote:
I'm further guessing we are the ones who started the negativity by our reaction to something they were initially unaware had farther reaching repercussions. 


I don't like using such terms as naive, but how can someone launch a bomb in creating & promoting a designer breed, using the majority for their cross being the Mastiff, then erroneously & intentionally state, the creation is identical, except for drool, health & longevity and then believe they aren't going to offend the Mastiff community?

Now you are reversing the responsibility for our reactions, by saying we started the negativity!

That's like saying, we started the negativity, due to our response, to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #100 
For a long time, our neighbor played his music so loudly it could be heard from inside our house which is 1/4 mile away.  I could have yelled at him and turned my own music up just as loud in an attempt to make a point and drown him out.  Instead, I respectfully (tongue firmly between teeth) told him that, while I liked his choice of music, it was interfering with my ability to listen to my own music in my own home and that it further woke the grandchildren when they were staying over.  

I could have allowed myself to vent and escalated the conflict.  Instead, I approached him with the apparent assumption that he wasn't aware of the impact he was having.  Given that "out", most people become pretty agreeable and comply with a, "Oh, I didn't know."  

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Karen K.
http://www.MastiffsVonHimmel.com

Southern States Mastiff Rescue: http://www.SouthernStatesMastiffRescue.org
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