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MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #151 

The American Mastiff is not only developed in America , it’s also the brainchild of people in America . People who had a concept for a new breed which could fill a gap into the canine world of demand & supply . Money aside (every breeder in any breed wants to have a financial return , and so not directly a cardinal sin) , the AMMA people seem to be well structured and able to provide fanciers a polished dry version of the Mastiff . Much more to prefer than those breeders who are inclined to caricaturize the Mastiff breed by fadding the wet version incl overlong lips , overloaded by folds , wrinkle , &c .

The claim that the American Mastiff name was used to describe the Mastiff in America sounds weak . There has been a OEMC branch in America as also the American Mastiff Club but both were heavily at variance AND short-lived , not to say historically stillborn . That Club (minutes of their agenda are seemingly non-existent) couldn’t avoid that the Mastiff in America already vanished in the early years of the XXth C . But now , more than a century later on , that creaky inefficient vehicle seems to be dug up in order to (partly) substantiate the claim regarding the 'ownership' of the name American Mastiff . A bit far fetched , isn’t it ?

The actual breed club in America is the MCOA  (the Mastiff Club of America) , the actual one in Belgium is the MCB (the Mastiff Club of Belgium) ; both names are straight without any chance of confusion . 
If the argument that the American Mastiff refers to the Mastiff in America should be genuine , then the Mastiff in Belgium should be considered as the Belgian Mastiff , the Mastiff in France as the French Mastiff , &c . One may see , such an argument makes no sense .


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #152 

The American Mastiff is not only developed in America , it’s also the brainchild of people in America . Developed? Is every cross breeding done using unknowns to be called a development? People who had a concept for a new breed which could fill a gap into the canine world of demand & supply . Filling what gap? The Nebolish Mastiff already existed to fill any gap based on erroneous dry mouthed Mastiffs! When you say people, it was a single person...Ms. Wagner!Money aside (every breeder in any breed wants to have a financial return , and so not directly a cardinal sin) , the AMMA people seem to be well structured and able to provide fanciers a polished dry version of the Mastiff . Much more to prefer than those breeders who are inclined to caricaturize the Mastiff breed by fadding the wet version incl overlong lips , overloaded by folds , wrinkle , &c . So two wrongs make the lesser wrong right?

The claim that the American Mastiff name was used to describe the Mastiff in America sounds weak . There has been a OEMC branch in America as also the American Mastiff Club but both were heavily at variance AND short-lived , not to say historically stillborn . That Club (minutes of their agenda are seemingly non-existent) couldn’t avoid that the Mastiff in America already vanished in the early years of the XXth C . But now , more than a century later on , that creaky inefficient vehicle seems to be dug up in order to (partly) substantiate the claim regarding the 'ownership' of the name American Mastiff . A bit far fetched , isn’t it ? Not at all! The Mastiff in America is the American Mastiff, just as a Mastiff in England is the English Mastiff!  If the MCOA were to fold, should the AMMA group start calling themselves the MCOA?

The actual breed club in America is the MCOA  (the Mastiff Club of America) , the actual one in Belgium is the MCB (the Mastiff Club of Belgium) ; both names are straight without any chance of confusion . 
If the argument that the American Mastiff refers to the Mastiff in America should be genuine , then the Mastiff in Belgium should be considered as the Belgian Mastiff , the Mastiff in France as the French Mastiff , &c . One may see , such an argument makes no sense . History impacts on perception. If the French Mastiff historically meant the DDB and the Belgian Mastiff historically referred to the drafting type of breed in Belgium, then it's understandable that the usage of the country name before the term Mastiff can be confusing. But despite the confusion, it is still incorrect for other breeds to frame their non Mastiffs type that way. A Belgian Mastiff is the Mastiff in Belgium. If the earlier Belgian Mastiff fancier(draft) wishes to revive that type, they must deal with the present reality and create a real name that is presently appropriate for their modern revival, so as not to confuse with the Mastiff proper in Belgium. Club references vs breed references are separate issues. The OEMC is evidence of that!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #153 
Quote:
Steve,
IF we look at the first standard proposed by Wynn, would we not see a number of significant differences in the breed standards from then until now? Michele Parlier has stated that the AM standard is in a process of evolution. Most sites I have found,relating to the AM -- or AMMA in your parlance -- have included the moderate terminology Marcel has cited. WE do not have a breeders' council (who imo profess the most extreme views), hence we have no ideas as to the difficulty of managing/moderating such a group.

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Karen


There have been changes to the Mastiff standard over the years, but the Wynn standard was not usurped from another related breed.
If the premise of the AMMA was an identical version of the Mastiff, which is still referenced by the founder of the AMMA, then it's understandable that a plagiarized facsimile was incorporated as their standard.
If a work in progress, then why create the breed, if type was supposed to be identical?

Was there an outcry of demand for a dry mouth Mastiff, if so, where is the outcry from Saint fanciers looking for the dry mouthed Saint?

The dry mouth rationalization is a myth, as many AMMA owners will certainly confirm!

Just used as a marketing ploy, to erroneously say we have a better mousetrap!

Can you see the inconsistency in your reasoning?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #154 
The  polished dry version is not wrong because it’s implemented in the standard of the American Mastiff . Exception aside , a Mastiff in England is a Mastiff . Have been there enough times to know that from the Britains themselves ; the OEMC insists that the breed is called 'THE MASTIFF' . A Belgian Mastiff in Belgium is called a Mâtin Belge or in short a Mâtin (my late godfather owned one) ; there are of course websites who present the revived Mâtin as the Belgian Mastiff but that has merely to do with the www mondialisation in English ! Even in countries without an own Mastiff variety , it seems inappropriate to pretend the Mastiff as a native blend . Example Poland – A Mastiff in Poland is therefore a Mastiff in Poland , so not a Polish Mastiff ; the same procedure goes for the Mastiff in America who’s simply a Mastiff in America , so not an American Mastiff (because it's not developed in America) .

Note – There may be Americans who consider their Mastiff as American Mastiff because their (AKC) standard is diverging from the KC standard of the Mastiff homeland , but in that case one may find themselves in troublesome waters as it’s no secret to mention that not all American breeders of the Mastiff follow up the AKC standard !

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #155 
Quote:
The  polished dry version is not wrong because it’s implemented in the standard of the American Mastiff .


So because it's worded in the standard, it makes it so? Is the breed also identical to the Mastiff, as stated by the founder's website?

Perhaps if they place a urine-less addition in their standard, it will make the breed totally dry!

Quote:
Even in countries without an own Mastiff variety , it seems inappropriate to pretend the Mastiff as a native blend .


Yet, you stated that this cross became a valid native blend (i.e. American Mastiff), solely based on being bred in a particular country!

Semantics aside, the Mastiff identity is at the core of this issue.

Naming an altered version of any breed, should reflect a moral obligation on the part of the creator, to keep separate the identity from any original established breed.

Typically, this is done by affixing the most distinguishing characteristic/s to the name, which represents the primary component of the difference/s within the breed type.

Giant, standard and miniature, are just some terms used for this purpose. American Foxhound/English Foxhound, are also ways of separating breed types, due to common precursors which have diverted forms over the years. American Akita vs Japanese Akita changed names due to similar forces at work, as in the Foxhounds.

The American Mastiff (Mastiff proper) is therefore, the Mastiff in America, even if not officially recognized as such by the international kennel clubs.

Whether the American Mastiff (Mastiff proper) has not quite diverted from it's European counterparts, is at present, inconsequential, since the domain of that designation, still belongs to the Mastiff in America and not an entirely new breed making false claims as being identical to the Mastiff.

If not identical and if created by infusion of a foreign breed (Anatolian), then the name should reflect the Anatolian reference, since this cross is promoted as the primary influencing factor in the creation of the cross.

The American Anatolian Mastiff, or Anatolian Mastiff designate, would have been more palatable and a better match for that cross breed, especially in the minds of most Mastiff fanciers & breeders.

The BULL-Mastiff incorporated it's Bulldog ancestry and gave that breed a separate identity from both Bulldog & Mastiff, at least in print!

The name American Mastiff used for the cross, signifies nothing other than riding the coattails of the Mastiff proper and coupled to advertising identical forms & nearly plagiarized standards, creates bad blood and immoral motivation$!






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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #156 
It all boils down to one breeder who crossbred two ( or more) separate breeds.. and rather than having to give them away as mutts, decided to lable them and make a fast buck.
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Linda Greeson Rice
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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #157 

So , the name ‘American Mastiff’ (for the Mastiff proper) is not officially recognized as such by the international kennel clubs but the name ‘American Mastiff’ (for the Mastiff proper) should belong to the Mastiff in America as the latter still owns the domain of that designation ?

Why the Mastiff in America should own that domain ?

By the way , why not call the Mastiff in America simply a Mastiff , just like in its homeland in order to avoid more confusion ?  A grand breed like ours , THE Mastiff , has become a world citizen . So why restricting its grandeur & dignity by preceding its name by some ‘narrowing’ adjective ? 


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #158 
You raised the issue regarding differences in country names, as it pertained to type, regarding American AKC vs British KC standards.

I'm saying, that although we don't claim that American Mastiffs are of considerable difference in type to foreign Mastiffs, we still should reserve the right of domain over the term American Mastiff, before a cross bred interloper declares it for themselves!

The formation of the American Mastiff Club in the later part of the 19th century, was formed to separate itself from it's British counterpart, but not because of separate standards.

The following card sent to Taunton, is testimony to a non adversarial relationship between both club organizations, despite the American Mastiff connotation.
It still represented the Mastiff in America and set precedence for rights of ownership to that name.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #159 

Quote:
“There have been changes to the Mastiff standard over the years, but the Wynn standard was not usurped from another related breed.
If the premise of the AMMA was an identical version of the Mastiff, which is still referenced by the founder of the AMMA, then it's understandable that a plagiarized facsimile was incorporated as their standard.
If a work in progress, then why create the breed, if type was supposed to be identical?

Was there an outcry of demand for a dry mouth Mastiff, if so, where is the outcry from Saint fanciers looking for the dry mouthed Saint?

The dry mouth rationalization is a myth, as many AMMA owners will certainly confirm!
Just used as a marketing ploy, to erroneously say we have a better mousetrap!

Can you see the inconsistency in your reasoning?”

My reasoning is only inconsistent when one attempts to fit it into an incompatible paradigm. My comments were responsive to the  differences that exist amongst a). the founder’s original vision for the breed and the earliest language in the standard; b) AMBC statements and descriptors; and c) The current descriptors, to which Marcel referred which use modifiers (‘tend to’)and less definitive wording (e.g., referring to broad individual differences). However, even the more ‘definitive statements’ are not quantified:  How dry is ‘dry’? How ‘drier’ is ‘drier’ – how are these measured. If they can’t be measured, other  than by subjective estimations, one can’t prove the statements correct or incorrect. The standard never stated ‘identical’ to the Mastiff. The strongest initial  statement was ‘nearly identical ‘ in appearance, which has been since amended . The CKC breed description begins: “The American Mastiff's head is wide, heavy and rectangular in shape. Eyes: Amber in color. …. Muzzle: Medium size and well-proportioned to head”. My key point was that the AMMA, just like the Mastiff, has evolved, and expectations of what the breed should look like have likewise changed.

A query on the AMMA forum as to why the name ‘Anatolian Mastiff’ was not selected , was answered by the explanation that one of the foundation breeds was the Anatolian Mastiff. Hence the name already belonged to an extant, original breed.

Quote:
“….the domain of the American Mastiff designation ,still belongs to the Mastiff in America”. 
Can you please show me some legal documentation that proves the designation ‘belongs to’ (as in ‘is owned by’ the Mastiff in America – and is that a legal entity?

In addition to adding the appellation “American’ to purebreds whose American breeders decided should markedly depart from the originators’ standards, it has frequently been used for dogs whose breeders decided to augment the basic strain with another breed to augment some attribute. Examples include

http://molosserdogs.com/m/articles/view/1394-american-bull-ridgeback

http://www.breederinfocenter.com/index.php?a_id=20090306110152

Finally, I would add that a friend of mine who is  a breeder remarked

“Why is everyone so bothered by the AMMA people?? I don't have an issue with them. Their dogs don't look like mine and they aren't taking anything I can see away. It seems much ado about very little to me. And I am passionate about this breed too”. 


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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #160 
Quote:
I'm saying, that although we don't claim that American Mastiffs are of considerable difference in type to foreign Mastiffs, we still should reserve the right of domain over the term American Mastiff, before a cross bred interloper declares it for themselves!

Except you didn't.


Quote:
It still represented the Mastiff in America and set precedence for rights of ownership to that name.


First, if we use your supporter, Grant's interpretation, this only means the American Club whose interest is Mastiffs. Establishing 'rights of ownership' requires legal legitimising of the 'right', which has not happened.

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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #161 
There is no such thing as an "Anatolian Mastiff".  Face it, these people have never really known what they were doing except misleading puppy buyers into buying one of their dogs.  It is and always has been for the money.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #162 
Quote:
how are these measured. If they can’t be measured, other  than by subjective estimations, one can’t prove the statements correct or incorrect.


Why do you tip toe around the founder's statements in her web site of the AMMA being identical?


Why didn't the AMMA people use American Anatolian Mastiff, if Anatolian Mastiff was taken?

The American Bull Mastiff is not a Bullmastiff in type, or coloration. It's not stated as being identical to the Bullmastiff by it's creator!

The American Bull Ridgeback also is a different type, not being promoted as identical by it's founder to any of it's compote.

Furthermore, other wrongs won't justify the improper naming of American Mastiff to an Anatolian hybrid!

You continue to fall back on the legal correctness, instead of the moral incorrectness of what has transpired.

A so called purebred takes many generations to breed true and your examples are certainly wanting in that department, despite the label of purebred that might be legally correct, but factually incorrect.

The evolution of a working breed, is typically based on the required job that it was to perform.

Why was the AMMA created?

Marcel said (I'm paraphrasing) it filled a gap, lacuna, or void.

I'm saying, it's a counterfeit Rolex with a Chinese movement, and a price tag that entices the clueless to say... YES!

For that truth, we are called snobs!

Amending the AMMA standard is like taking the counterfeit watches off the street, but still selling them behind closed doors.

Done to reduce the heat, not to improve the so called breed.

Amber eyes are fine............why?

Is it because the skilled AMMA breeders can't eliminate that trait? So let's just add it to the standard!

No doubt, they will continue to amend their standard with every unwanted trait they can't breed out.

Fly by the seat of your pants standard, with a creation that's so called evolving from what into what......unknown!


Quote:
Their dogs don't look like mine and they aren't taking anything I can see away. It seems much ado about very little to me. And I am passionate about this breed too”.


And since she can't see, isn't she blind?

Clueless perceptions, with isolated, egocentric involvement, makes for limited understandings.

The reason the MCOA posted the AMMA disclaimer on their website, and the reason why breeders do the same, was done not because there was much ado about nothing!

They're not blind!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #163 
Just wondering if I started using kcormel4 as my sign in name, would kcornel4 complain?

No doubt she would be very understanding and radically change her name, instead of requesting me to cease & desist!

Legally I would be entitled to use the name, but morally I would be rubbing it in her face!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #164 
An observation I would make, Steve, is that you are constantly making a parallel between legally trademarked and inanimate products (Starbucks -- from previous but exactly the same argument threads --GM, Rolex, designer 'the real deal' handbags and jewelry, etc.etc.) with living, breathing sentient beings who cannot be trademarked. You continue to make a personal 'moral' argument using legal terminology. There IS no legal grounds for attacking the right of the AMMA organisation to use the name "American Mastiff".
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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #165 
I am sure my friend, who has been a strong fan of yours, will be delighted with your comments.
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #166 
Once again you fail to see the point!

I am not arguing against the legality, I'm arguing against the immorality!

See post #170

Sorry if I lost a fan, due to your limited anecdotal phrasing.

As it is presented by you, it appears clueless.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #167 
Do the AMMA people have a legal right to use American Mastiff?

Do they own the name? If not............

Therefore, it's a moral choice to use it or not!

If they selectively choose to use the name, there is nothing preventing the Mastiff in America from calling itself the AMERICAN MASTIFF as well!

If done by the genuine Mastiff, it will only enhance & confuse the perception of the AMMA cross in the eye of the public.

So once again a catch 22 for the genuine Mastiff!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #168 
Quote:

Once again you fail to see the point!
I am not arguing against the legality, I'm arguing against the immorality!
See post #170
Sorry if I lost a fan, due to your limited anecdotal phrasing.
As it is presented by you, it appears clueless.

 

Yes, I know Steve – I do not ‘fail to see your point’…. but you present your individual sense of ‘morality’ in legal terminology – as you have for this same argument over the last couple of years. It simply doesn’t wash legally --either a legal offense has been committed or it hasn’t. In the four pages of this discussion you have stated your sentiment repetitively – that does not make your argument more true or compelling.

I stated exactly what my friend said, although I am saddened that you don’t see this as relevant information. Insulting me will not change what she said. However, I shall certainly not provide any further valid feedback, as clearly you do not welcome it. I am not offended by your phrasing, as I see it as even more clueless!


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Reply with quote  #169 
As valid as the "Anatolian Mastiff" that was used as one of the founding breeds in the creation of this mix?
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #170 
Kristie,

I don't know, and neither do you.

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Reply with quote  #171 
Quote:
If they selectively choose to use the name, there is nothing preventing the Mastiff in America from calling itself the AMERICAN MASTIFF as well!


Then go for it! Although I do not believe there is, or can be, a legal entity " Mastiff in America". But go for it!

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Reply with quote  #172 
Google it then.  Everybody knows there is no such dog as an "Anatolian Mastiff".  That dog does not exist.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #173 
Well, of course Google is the font of all knowledge.
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Reply with quote  #174 
IF you attempted to use my sign-on name, you will be requested to provide a password, as you know full well. You cannot provide the password. Full stop. This is not a relevant comparator.
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Reply with quote  #175 
Quote:
You continue to fall back on the legal correctness, instead of the moral incorrectness of what has transpired.


If you want to rail ineffectually against the 'moral turpitude' of the AMMA organisation, then by all means carry on. But, at the end of the day, it is the legal correctness that will prevail.

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Reply with quote  #176 

Keeping up in line with claims formulated in former posts , one may say that ‘morally’ standard description and breed name belong together in their origin and therefore inseparable . After 70+ years it’s still a riddle that the MCOA/AKC on the one hand changed considerably the original Mastiff breed standard of the homeland but on the other hand kept the original breed name ‘The Mastiff’ of the homeland . If one isn’t pleased with a standard breed description , how can one use the identical heading (breed name) for its own remake?

Never stated that OEMC & American Mastiff Club were at variance . Re-read and find that it was something between the OEMC branch in America (led by Americans) vs the American Mastiff Club , the latter here ad multum interpreted as the Club of the American Mastiff but without problem ALSO (or even better) to interprete as the American Club of the Mastiff . So wherefrom comes the right of domain ? From a subjective interpretation about a historically very short-lived club name ? 

Note - The Anatolian Mastiff is , just like the American Mastiff , a CKC registered breed .

 


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Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
insulting me will not change what she said.


Karen, I was not insulting you, if it sounded that way I apologize.

I was attempting to say, that the presentation as it appeared sounded as though she was clueless. Perhaps the conversation in reality was more extensive.

It was just her anecdotal message, which rarely encompasses the Mastiff community as a whole.

The MCOA message was universal in scope and reflected the majority of complaints.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #178 
Quote:
IF you attempted to use my sign-on name, you will be requested to provide a password, as you know full well. You cannot provide the password. Full stop. This is not a relevant comparator.


Please go back and read the word I posted once again. It's not your name as typed (look closely), it's identical except for drool!

Very much in keeping with this topic under debate.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #179 

Quote:
If you want to rail ineffectually against the 'moral turpitude' of the AMMA organisation, then by all means carry on. But, at the end of the day, it is the legal correctness that will prevail.


I know that even traffic lights can be added to an intersection, if there is a great outcry for it's need. Legally, the municipality may not have to place one at the crossroad, but morally, if the intersection posses a potential hazard, it can be positioned at that site.

You continue to fall back on the legal correctness of this argument and never address the moral issue of identical type used to describe the cross by it's founder.

How come?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #180 

Knowing from experience that these debates seldom, if ever, reach a resolution since parties are so throughly and emotionally entrenched in their beliefs, I want to ask again...

When it was first learned of the invention of this breed and the intended naming of it, did any representative of either MCOA or our breed fancy in general contact the originator (in a non-antagonistic manner) to explain how the intended name, description and/or proposed standard could cause issues for our breed and the club?  If that did not occur, couldn't it have prevented the very problem we are seeing now? 

(In answering this question, please don't jump into the heads of someone else and respond with a prediction of what the outcome would have been.  I'm asking if there was even a reasonable and reasoned attempt, regardless of what we felt the outcome would be.)

  • YES
  • NO

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Reply with quote  #181 
I could breed a Shelty with a Mastiff , call them Sheltiffs, and register them with CKC. CHC is a joke.. everyone knows that, except unsuspecting puppy buyers.
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Linda Greeson Rice
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http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
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Reply with quote  #182 

Quote:
Please go back and read the word I posted once again. It's not your name as typed
Yes, I l see you are correct. I do have a very mild form of dys
lexia -- which runs in my family -- in which I  sometimes do not perceive and process letters and numbers correctly. For example (if you have slightest interest, of course), if I see a row of 6 numbers written, I will usually transpose the 3rd and 4th. If you adopted a user name very similar to my own, I would likely change mine to avoid confusion. I believe one of our members has done exactly that.

Linda, 'everyone' is a rather broad field. Unless you know them all personally and each one's views of the CKC, I don't believe you can accurately assert that 'everyone' knows the CKC 'is a joke'. I also give the puppy buying public a great deal more credit than that. No doubt there are some people who rush out and buy a particular puppy on a whim, but-- supported by what people I know personally (breeders and owners) have said, and reading many introductions here as well as on other Mastiff forums, people who are making a significant investment in a Mastiff do quite a lot of research and home-work beforehand. Additionally, the AMMA forum makes it very clear that buyers will not be able to show their puppies, due to the CKC registration.

As I have said many times, if the desire is to force the AMMA organisation to change their name (which I believe is wholly impractical at this point, anyway) there will have to be legal grounds, which don't exist. At this point in the Mastiff -- AMMA organisations' relationship which has devolved, significantly, I can't see how a 'moral' argument is going to have any chance of success. Additionally, as time goes on, there are more and more potential buyers who have elected to join the 'AMMA' camp and buy one, simply due to the animosity, attacks  and 'trash-talking' they have encountered on our forum.

However, another approach might involve analysing supply and demand, and developing strategies that make inroads into the demand. Like my blind and clueless (and totally, passionately dedicated to our breed), breeder friend (and Marcel), I think our Mastiffs are magnificent beings, and seeing one, I believe buyers would prefer our Mastiff. As I said very early one, just seeing Boris has convinced several people with poorly bred mastiffs from BYBs that they should invest in our Mastiff. It is perhaps worthy of note, I have never yet encountered an AMMA in the flesh. So, it might be worthwhile to consider what actions and tactics could be taken to get our Mastiff more in front of the dog-buying public and slow, or even stop the demand for AMMAs.



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Reply with quote  #183 
Understood, Grant, but my point regards whether potential damage could be prevented by early constructive communication.  My own observation is that this "breed" introduction was met with screams of protest and attacks which are hardly conducive to eliciting cooperation on the part of the 'offending' party.

Since I do not know all, I am merely asking whether an early attempt at communication was ever made.  I myself have no knowledge of it if it was.  If someone were to show me that a representative of MCOA had gone to the innovators of the AM and explained to them the problems it created for the Mastiff folks and the response of the AM folks had been for us to go take a flying leap, I'd not only be defending Steve's shots, I'd be helping him load the gun.  

  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
Hi Karen
... it takes time, to know, if any damage or hardship is going to affect others by there presence !! 

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Reply with quote  #184 
A point I tried to make earlier even though no one appears to be listening.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcornel4

... Additionally, as time goes on, there are more and more potential buyers who have elected to join the 'AMMA' camp and buy one, simply due to the animosity, attacks and 'trash-talking' they have encountered on our forum. ...
 


... as well as on many of our web sites where the tone often alienates rather than educates. As a result, we end up inflicting more harm upon ourselves more than our perceived enemies do.

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Reply with quote  #185 
Since I don't know the whole story (and it doesn't look like I ever will), I post this 
To Whom It May Concern.


Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: OWL.jpg, Views: 80, Size: 33.21 KB 

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Reply with quote  #186 
Karen, they themselves per YOUR posts are not seeking AKC recognition and only want to provide "pet quality" dogs, if that were truely the case then why have they been charging show quality prices from the get go?  Show quality prices on dogs that cannot be shown?

If there advertisments went more like this:

Our dogs look somewhat like a Mastiff however the muzzle is snipey, the bones are fine as opposed to heavy and the dogs are tall but not massive.  We do not know for sure that they live longer or have less health issues because we haven't had any of them tested.  We believe that they drool less but not that much less.  The Anatolian temperament does crop up so an experienced owner is a must in order to properly handle these dogs.  They do, like all breeds, end up in rescue so here is a website (or more) to visit in order to adopt one for only the rehoming fee:  SiteXXX etc.  We charge a lot of money for them because we want to make a lot of money, you could adopt a similar animal from a shelter for a lot less so if you don't like our fees, go to a shelter and adopt any of the mixed breeds available there.  We don't not know the exact lineage of our breed or where it came from, there may be an influence of Great Dane in the founding stock but again we aren't sure because the breed founder herself doesn't really know, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Good luck and hope to sell you a puppy soon!

True Mastiff people wouldn't create much of a fuss over this because at least they would be telling the truth instead of pumping people full of lies.  However, that description above would not sell many puppies and definately not at the price they want for them.  So they make up these great claims about how their dogs are healthier, live longer etc., etc.  This will continue as long as no one stops it.

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #187 
Kristie makes a valid point!

In addition, why has the AMMA group been distancing themselves from the Panja, the other American Mastiff?

Why do they need to reflect that the Panja is not an AMMA, if names don't count?

Why do they berate the crosses that have gone into the Panja?

The Panja group has never claimed their breed to be identical to any other breed!

This sort of hypocrisy by the AMMA folks is never addressed.

The AMMA is NOT A MASTIFF!

The American Mastiff is the Mastiff in America. Despite convoluted reasoning, used to rationalize legalities over common sense!

The MCOA might indeed have a legal case against the false AMMA advertising claims, and it may be one reason why some AMMA factions have made their original claims more fuzzy. Perhaps just another ploy to prevent legal action?

If the MCOA was late in recognizing this threat to the Mastiff proper, then those who had the reins of power, at an earlier time, were perhaps negligent in their indifference. Or, it may not have been seen as a threat early on, since few crosses were being widely distributed. A legal case can cost tens of thousand to initiate and money is always an issue for breed clubs. This also may have been a contributing factor, in the reluctance of the club to bring a suit. One must remember that the club does not represent only breeders and that the general membership may not have voted for their money to be used, to basically protect a name not often used, or the individual breeders, who are affected more than the average club member by the emergence of the AMMA. If there was a Mastiff Breeders Association in America, they could have pooled resources to target any intrusion into the domain of the Mastiff proper. But once again, this could be very costly and organized efforts where money is concerned, is typically difficult to undertake & organize easily.

Now we are being told that our protest, is actually pushing people into the AMMA camp.

Once again, blaming the victim and a lame attempt at making us feel that we are shooting ourselves in the foot, by raising our disgust over AMMA tactics.
If only we would stop complaining, there would be less AMMAS sold to potential Mastiff buyers!....SURE!!!

I've spoken to some very sophisticated and well read individuals who were planning to buy the AMMA. The research that Karen believes that went into their search, simply boiled down to.... "I like the way it looks, it's muzzle length is the way I like it and it drools less". 

I personally don't have a problem with someone who's perceived tastes are based on subjective appeal, over a standardized type.
But when a crossbreed is said to be identical, to an already established breed, and picks a name which reinforces that identity, then it's clear, that the cross bred group is just looking to capitalize on the coattails of the original breed, no matter at what expense, or price, that the original breed will be forced to pay.

The AMMA groups disclaim the Panja, most likely for economic reasons (since they bash the heritage of the Panja), and when we disclaim the AMMA, they resent us!

Yet, those who like to appear objective in this debate, never try to explain the hypocrisy of the AMMA folks in many regards. They profess to be evaluating this as impartial players, who have no axe to grind, yet the Mastiff folks are somehow being made to appear as the villains!

If only we Mastiff folks would behave differently, the AMMA folks might begin to consider our complaints!

Do we want the AMMA folks to judge if our complaints are valid?

The same people who distorted their advertising and initiated the problem, knowing well in advance, of the ramifications to our breed if they were successful in their launch!

Trust must be earned and when you take an existing brand and basically use it as your own, due to loopholes in a legal system concerning living creatures, it's simply morally reprehensible!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #188 
Regarding post #189, YES or NO?
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Reply with quote  #189 
WOW!

http://www.american-mastiff.com/Puppies.aspx

After purchasing your puppy, you should carry it to a licensed veterinarian for a health examination. When we receive an application at CONTINENTAL KENNEL CLUB, and issue a certificate of registration on any dog or puppy, this is not a guarantee of the health or the quality of the puppy or dog.

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #190 
Kristy,

Quote:
Karen, they themselves per YOUR posts are not seeking AKC recognition and only want to provide "pet quality" dogs, if that were truely the case then why have they been charging show quality prices from the get go. Show quality prices on dogs that cannot be shown?

I don't know why people are willing to pay the prices asked. I think this is a good question -- but best directed toward people who ARE willing. I would think it useful information to  further try to understand what influenced their decisions.  I personally have not bought an AMMA, and never will. I have already selected a Mastiff breeder from whom I will be absolutely thrilled to have a puppy. I have said, our Mastiffs are magnificent beings, and I believe that anyone seeing one, would prefer our Mastiff. One further comment I would offer on this topic, posts on the AMMA forum indicate that – based on experiences with their first AMMA – an increasing number of members are adding a second, third or more to their households, despite the general acknowledgement that drooling varies widely amongst individuals, and despite the price.

 I think the assertion, "show quality prices" for a" pet quality" dog is a bit disingenuous. As we have heard in debates about breeder pricing on this forum and other Mastiff sites, we have some breeders who set two prices -- one for show quality puppies and one for pet quality puppies. Others charge the same price for either.

Quote:
In addition, why has the AMMA group been distancing themselves from the Panja, the other American Mastiff?
Why do they berate the crosses that have gone into the Panja?

I, personally have seen no ‘berating’ of the Panja or the original breeds used to create it. The AMMA FAQ forum, simply comments, in answer to queries as to whether there is another “American Mastiff’, that the Panja does exist and is not related to the AM breed originating with Fredricka. A link is provided to the Dog Breed Info Center page on the American Panja Breed, and interested readers are encouraged to investigate for themselves.

Quote:
Why do they need to reflect that the Panja is not an AMMA, if names don't count?


I don’t believe I have ever said, nor have I seen or heard an AMMA person write/say that ‘names don’t count’. Please provide a reference for this. I have given the reasons (as I understand them)given for their selection of the ‘American Mastiff’ nomenclature.  I would echo KarenK’s question.

Quote:
The Panja group has never claimed their breed to be identical to any other breed!


How is that relevant to this discussion? Additionally, you continue to argue citing AMMA terminology which a). was a distortion of what was originally said. “Nearly identical’ is a very different description from “Identical”. ‘Nearly’ is a strong modifier. If I said you were ‘nearly crushed by a safe’, that has a completely different meaning than you were ‘crushed by a safe’’. ‘Identical’ would be actionable. Secondly as I have already commented, the current language has modified over time to ‘similar- in size and appearance….




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Reply with quote  #191 
Not "nearly" identical, but stated as actually identical:

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/01-Amastiff_History.html

THE AMERICAN MASTIFF  looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to out-crossing early on in the history of the breed. They are very much the "gentle giant."

Obviously yet another lie straight from them.

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/01-Puppy_Prices.html

Our puppies are $1,600 each or $2,100 for pick of the litter.

What does "pick of the litter" matter if none of the litter can or ever will be shown?  Remember per your posts they only strive to produce pet quality puppies anyway.  Furthermore, pet quality puppies can be found for substantially less money!  The only reason people come back for more is because THEY BELIEVE THE LIES THEY ARE BEING TOLD!  The breeders KNOW THIS and count on it!  That is why people like me, who seek to spread the truth, are blocked from their websites and forums under the guise of hostility and breed bashing!


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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #192 

The temptation in advertizing to gloze the reality is a standard given , and the world of selling dogs is not free from it , not a single breed is free from it , incl the Mastiff . It’s up to the potential buyer to cautiously ‘prepare’ his/her purchase in a broadview perspective , preferably via personal contacts incl the dogs thereto .

The American Mastiff breed seems to be heavily under target but , nothwithstanding that , the number of supporters seems to be on the increase . Are they all clueless or is there more at hand ?

Could it be that perhaps many specimens of the American Mastiff breed do meet the personal expectations of the resp buyers and that ‘word of mouth’ has become a stimulator which presently overrules all the negative publicity (from other breed fancies) about the American Mastiff ? The difference between praxis & theory ? In an ideal world both may go together , but that may rarely happen , so it’s quite obvious that , if theory (a/o ‘via www’) may be contradictory , potential buyers may make their decision upon the ‘word of mouth’ praxis and in that case theoretical arguing , not to say blackguarding , may be all in vain as it may be simply eclipsed by the ‘goods’ of praxis .


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Reply with quote  #193 
Quote:
I, personally have seen no ‘berating’ of the Panja or the original breeds used to create it. The AMMA FAQ forum, simply comments, in answer to queries as to whether there is another “American Mastiff’, that the Panja does exist and is not related to the AM breed originating with Fredricka. A link is provided to the Dog Breed Info Center page on the American Panja Breed, and interested readers are encouraged to investigate for themselves.


Karen, statements such as this one, leads me to believe that you are being disingenuous as an objective player.

I've posted the negatives regarding the Panja coming from the AMMA folks, yet you state they're not berating the breed.

When I say that the AMMA group has targeted the Panja with disclaimers, due to the Panja's usage of the AMMA name, you state it's irrelevant! Yet when we object, you feel we're in the wrong (legally, or morally).

When I state & post, that the founder still states it is identical, you avoid addressing it and prefer to focus on the amended comments used to deflect legal liability for false claims!

Does a recent modifier remove the earlier damage done?

Once a market is created for a product on the back of another, does it matter that slight modifiers are then inserted to prevent culpability AFTER the fact?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #194 
http://www.deerwatches.net/rolex-datejust-7191062-7191062.html

Pass this on to the AMMA fanciers, see if they're interested!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #195 
Because as I stated in my more accuratate depiction of an AMMA advertisement, that advertisemnet although 100% true, does not do much to actually sell the puppies.  The breeders are lying as a selling tool.

Karen, since the statement on their own website, the glorious Mrs. Wagoner herself says "identical to the Mastiff" then this is an actionable case in a court of law.  You said it yourself:

"How is that relevant to this discussion? Additionally, you continue to argue citing AMMA terminology which a). was a distortion of what was originally said. “Nearly identical’ is a very different description from “Identical”. ‘Nearly’ is a strong modifier. If I said you were ‘nearly crushed by a safe’, that has a completely different meaning than you were ‘crushed by a safe’’. ‘Identical’ would be actionable. Secondly as I have already commented, the current language has modified over time to ‘similar- in size and appearance…."

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #196 

Shifting the topic slightly, one thing I have been seriously wondering about, is how many individuals participating in this debate are actually Mastiff breeders who are down in the trenches working with devotion and single-minded dedication to maintain and improve our breed -- spending grinding hours and making huge financial investments showing, creating and proving breeding programs, testing, training, preparing young dogs for show, managing breeding, maternal health and crises, whelping, raising litters and all the accompaniments?   Linda, and Janine of course, but who else?

…and how many of us (including myself) are ‘armchair philosophising’?


I would be very interested in hearing from breeders how much revenues they believe have been lost to AMMAs, what negative impact/costs/losses other than revenue (e.g., reputation) have been otherwise incurred. Given your goals, to what extent is the AMMA organization ‘on your radar’ as a serious threat?

Looking back through related threads, the ‘moral’ argument, as well as denigration of the AMMA community has been going on since 2008 – if not before. In five years, this argument has not seemed to have gained sufficient supporters/traction to do much more than to decry the situation to one another on our board – other than to persuade the MCOA to issue a statement, which I agreed was a good tactic.


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Karen
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #197 
Karen,

You also stated, that my use of your almost identical screen name, would be met with you simply changing your name to another.

Would you be upset that someone attempted to sabotage your handle, or do you just turn another cheek?


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #198 
http://americanmastifffamily.net/faq.htm

Please note... BEWARE OF IMPOSTERS.... immediately following the Panja disclaimer.

Is this what you mean as no berating?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #199 
Well, I am not a breeder therefore I have no monetary losses.  I am defending my breed from a knock off copy that could get my breed on a BSL list.  I am a pet owner and a rescuer, that not only has seen AMMA's in rescue more times than I wish to count but also as someone who has had my share of them come through the doors of my home because there was no where else for them to go.  It is not the dogs fault, they are a victim of circumstance at the hands of a syndicated group of BYB's operating under the pretence of selling dogs "identical to the Mastiff" in order to profit off the sale of them.  The prices can not be justified for a multitude of reasons like health testing since they spend no money on health testing!  Taking a new puppy to the Vet for a health check does not constitute health testing.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #200 
Oh yeah, like Steve pointed out THEY are very concerned about imposters!
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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