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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #201 
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Now we are being told that our protest is actually pushing people into the AMMA camp.
Once again, blaming the victim and a lame attempt at making us feel we are shooting ourselves in the foot, by raising our disgust over AMMA tactics.


I, personally, don't care, except that I believe in fairness. I am not a big supporter of /apologist for the AMMA group -- although I find their forums to be warm and welcoming, and it is possible to debate different opinions in ways that are not highly charged, emotional and attacking. I reported the experiences that real people have related.  Actually the expression 'shooting themselves in the foot' has been rather frequently invoked. Based on what I've read, I don't believe many AMMA forum members are invested at all in 'making us feel' any particular way.

And actually, as I have more extensively read through the AMMA forums, I retract my earlier statement that the two organisations are caught in a spiral of escalating conflict. My perception is that they are bewildered, but not engaged in competing with, vilifying or attacking the Mastiff organisation as an entity. In fact breed bashing is not permitted.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #202 

Shifting the topic slightly, one thing I have been seriously wondering about, is how many individuals participating in this debate are actually Mastiff breeders who are down in the trenches working with devotion and single-minded dedication to maintain and improve our breed -- spending grinding hours and making huge financial investments showing, creating and proving breeding programs, testing, training, preparing young dogs for show, managing breeding, maternal health and crises, whelping, raising litters and all the accompaniments?   Linda, and Janine of course, but who else?

…and how many of us (including myself) are ‘armchair philosophising’?

THAT is irrelevant!

That tactic has been tried many times before to try and shame a posters views. It won't hold water.
Marcel certainly has a right to his armchair opinion, even though I may disagree with it! He's paid his dues in the breed, even though he's not a breeder!


I would be very interested in hearing from breeders how much revenues they believe have been lost to AMMAs, what negative impact/costs/losses other than revenue (e.g., reputation) have been otherwise incurred. Given your goals, to what extent is the AMMA organization ‘on your radar’ as a serious threat? Let's see....I believe it's been stated that there were 500 produced just out of Fly W. At $2000 a pop + or -  equals= $1,000,000.00

Now add all of the other AMMA producers and the numbers are in the multi-million$!

These are dollars spent, of which a majority percentage could have gone to legitimate Mastiff breeders if the identical less drool version was not on the scene.

You failed to respond to my question of the Nebolish Mastiff, which also offered a very similar type & drool as the AMMA. No issue from the Mastiff folks, since the name & advertising did not trespass on our breed!  Therefore, the niche that Marcel felt was filled by the AMMA, was not based on attributes of the AMMA, but based on the erroneous campaign against our breed!
Since the Nebolish fit the same bill as the AMMA in many respects.

Looking back through related threads, the ‘moral’ argument, as well as denigration of the AMMA community has been going on since 2008 – if not before. In five years, this argument has not seemed to have gained sufficient supporters/traction to do much more than to decry the situation to one another on our board – other than to persuade the MCOA to issue a statement, which I agreed was a good tactic. As stated earlier, organizing any effort in clubs is slower than molasses, that doesn't change the structure of the complaint. I've been in touch with the President of the MCOA and the board will be addressing this issue shortly, stay tuned.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #203 
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My perception is that they are bewildered, but not engaged in competing with, vilifying or attacking the Mastiff organisation as an entity. In fact breed bashing is not permitted.


Bewildered=clueless!

Very big of them for not attacking the innocent party!

Breed bashing is not permitted, is used as a self protective mechanism, it's not done to prevent other breeds from being bashed, even though the restriction automatically covers others.

Most AMMA owners are just outsiders who love dogs and decided on the AMMA.

They are not into history, showing, confirmation, breeding, or anything pertinent, that many other purebred fanciers are engaged in.

Nothing wrong in that, but these folks cannot be used as the axiom of any moral injustice, done to a breed with a very long history and club affiliation.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #204 
First of all, the information I have been passing along was drawn from the American Mastiff Family Forum, as well as the AMBC website, the current description of the breed on the CKC website, the current description of the breed on the Dog Breed Info Center. If you believe statements by Fredericka Wagner are currently actionable, then by all means take action. But let's not pretend all the statements being bandied about were found on the same site.

I am looking at the linked FAQ, and I see no statement in the paragraph about Panjas that state 'Beware of Imposters'. 

 

Quote:

The American Mastiff breed seems to be heavily under target but , nothwithstanding that , the number of supporters seems to be on the increase . Are they all clueless or is there more at hand ?

Could it be that perhaps many specimens of the American Mastiff breed do meet the personal expectations of the resp buyers and that ‘word of mouth’ has become a stimulator which presently overrules all the negative publicity (from other breed fancies) about the American Mastiff ?

 

This is precisely what appears to be happening Marcel....and I am in favour of finding out WHY it is happening. If I discover that a competitor is taking my business, I make an effort to find out, first, the extent of the problem, then why --what is that company offering, or how are they performing it that leads them to make that choice. We acquire our business from repeat satisfied customers and word of mouth -- hence I know what a powerful influencer that can be in buying decisions.

Quote:
Shifting the topic slightly, one thing I have been seriously wondering about, is how many individuals participating in this debate are actually Mastiff breeders
THAT is irrelevant!
That tactic has been tried many times before to try and shame a posters views. It won't hold water.


Excuse me, but I am asking a highly relevant and legitimate question
: The morality of the name scenario has been intermixed with the argument that our breed has suffered negative consequences, damages and losses. The intent is not to 'shame' anyone, it is an intent to solicit valid feedback from the people who are the backbone of our breed, and the 'front line' who should have direct experience with the existence and extent of these consequences.... Let's wonder HOW that question might have come to mind for me.

Let's see....I believe it's been stated that there were 500 produced just out of Fly W. At $2000 a pop + or -  equals= $1,000,000.00
Now add all of the other AMMA producers and the numbers are in the multi-million$!
These are dollars spent, of which a majority percentage could have gone to legitimate Mastiff breeders if the identical less drool version was not on the scene.

That is all conjecture, not valid data. As I commented before, and to which Marcel alluded, word of mouth, and experience with their initial AMMA appear to be the primary factors that have resulted in growing popularity, despite the acknowledgement that there is great individual variability as to drooling.

I have no idea what the Nebolish Mastiff is,or purports to be, I have no ideas as to what its popularity is; hence I have nothing to contribute.

I've been in touch with the President of the MCOA and the board will be addressing this issue shortly, stay tuned.
Excellent!



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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #205 
Why would they attack the Mastiff and it's community, they are riding the coattails of it!  That is one of the ways they make their money.  This is a multi million dollar operation founded by BYB's and using the good name of the Mastiff and it's temperament to promote sales of the knock off.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #206 
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I am looking at the linked FAQ, and I see no statement in the paragraph about Panjas that state 'Beware of Imposters'. 


Then go back to the site and scroll down to the heading that states: Are there other dogs who claim to be American Mastiffs?

Read the paragraphs and you will see the reference.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #207 
Karen, you had no idea that there is no such thing as an Anatolian Mastiff, you had no knowledge of the Nebolish, you have never seen or cared for an AMMA in person, you have nothing to stand on in this argument.  If you don't even know the breeds out there including the supposed foundation stock they used then you have nothing of value whatsoever to contribute to this argument.  You are blowing off, side stepping and making excuses as to why you can't offer any useful information.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #208 
You sound like a perfect fit to be an "approved" AMMA breeder.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #209 
The backbone of our breed are all of the fanciers involved in Mastiffs. Buyers, sellers and enthusiasts. The seller (breeder) will be affected the most from a monetary perspective. But the entire community is weakened by imposters who create false & deceptive advertising and then slightly amend their tone AFTER the damage has been done. The changed tone is to avoid future law suits, which based on their earlier wording was indeed actionable!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #210 
Quote:
I have no idea what the Nebolish Mastiff is,or purports to be, I have no ideas as to what its popularity is; hence I have nothing to contribute.


http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=ytff1-tyc&p=nebolish%20mastiff&type=


Do you have any idea what the AMMA purports to be?  Or does a changing description, used to avoid legal consequences, alter it's purpose?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #211 
Actually, I (again) did not find any such statement in the 'Are there other dogs who claim, etc?" paragraph; I had to click through to a home page which did comment to some effect that breeding was carefully monitored, so to beware of imposters (generically, as I interpreted it). There FOLLOWED the comment specifically about Panja's not being 'American Mastiffs'.
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #212 
http://americanmastifffamily.net/faq.htm

Karen, it's there.

It's generic, yet sandwiched in between both mentions of the Panja!

Let's not be naive!

The site blocks copy & paste. Another defensive move to inhibit future actions.

Put on your objective glasses and it will pop off the page!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #213 

Quote:
The site blocks copy & paste. Another defensive move to inhibit future actions.


Exactly; hence I am unable to cut and paste what I see following the link -- OR what I was ultimately able to find on the home page.

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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #214 
It cannot be copy and pasted because (big suprise) Michelle runs and operates it.  Go figure...
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #215 
Quote:
The backbone of our breed are all of the fanciers involved in Mastiffs. Buyers, sellers and enthusiasts.

 I don't disagree, and you are an able 'voice' for some of these constituencies. However, we have heard from very few people.

Quote:
The seller (breeder) will be affected the most from a monetary perspective. But the entire community is weakened by imposters who create false & deceptive advertising and then slightly amend their tone AFTER the damage has been done.

'Weakened' is another unquantifiable.

The reason I have brought breeders' perceptions and experiences up, is that, in addition to my blind and clueless, but passionate breeder friend, I have also been contacted by other breeder acquaintances who state that they are far more concerned by damage being wrought by breeders WITHIN our breed who are producing large numbers of poor quality, but cheap and registrable puppies, than they are with the AMMA situation. AMMAs were not on their radar screens in terms of priorities and perceived threats. This was by no means a large sample size, so I do think it an important issue to explore.

Quote:
The changed tone is to avoid future law suits, which based on their earlier wording was indeed actionable!


Then, by all means, let's take action. I have made a number of suggestions, beginning with my post # 14 including

> Identifying potentially actionable statements and planning action
> Identifying and adopting
(positive) stratagems for building support in the larger  -- in this case canine -- community.
>  Investigating and attempting to understand whether and, if so,  why word of mouth/personal experience seem to be influencing buying decisions within the AMMA world.
> Getting some data as to the real impact the AMMA  organisation is  having on the Mastiff community
> Developing strategies to at least slow the demand for AMMA puppies.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #216 

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'Weakened' is another unquantifiable.


If people buy into the false advertising, then the perception of the Mastiff has been weakened in the view of those who choose the healthier, less drool, longer lived, less hip dysplastic, less knee problemed, cross breed, posing as an improved identical Mastiff!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #217 
A simple question for you.

Are the statements in Flying W's site credible as it is written and if not, would you consider them false & misleading?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #218 
Steve
A simple answer: As I believe I have already stated, the statements on the Flying W's site appear to be actionable. And I believe I said 'take action'.

"Weakened' is still a subjective and unquantifiable term.

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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #219 
He asked if they were credible or false and misleading.  Either way it's a yes or no answer.
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #220 
Ummm, I said they may be actionable...what else do you need to know?
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Reply with quote  #221 

A further analysis regarding the American Mastiff is that there certainly are ‘cautious’ buyers who feel cheated by the people of the American Mastiff breed , ie their puppy grows up to something which doesn’t suit their expectations , the latter based upon theory & ‘word of mouth’ praxis . They have studied the standard , read comments on breeders’ fashionable websites , gazed at online pics of American Mastiffs and have formed an idea of what to expect and even may have seen them at the breeder’ home but their American Mastiff puppy becomes a failure , period .

Now , let’s see the position of the Mastiff . There certainly are ALSO ‘cautious’ buyers who feel cheated by the Mastiff people as their puppy does not satisfy the high hopes . Those buyers feel cheated in perhaps an even stronger way as here it goes about a well-established & AKC recognized breed oozing a long & famous history and googling the 'pictorial' internet one may find Mastiffs of extraordinary canine qualities , ie big , heavily monumental creatures radiating strength , vigor & determination , in short a waaauw appearance , absolutely not to compare with the , let’s say meagre visual display of American Mastiffs who averagely reflect the idea of a black masked tall but plain ‘every day’ dog . Consequently the expectation level of the potential Mastiff purchaser may be much higher compared to those in the ‘hunt’ for a American Mastiff . 

Personally ‘attended’ in a nutshell – A Mastiff website (privacy respect) presents a number of ‘waauw’ dogs , gets much world-wide interest , a potential purchaser contacts the breeder , takes a plane , arranges the contract , flies back , waits , flies back and picks up the presumed flyer pup , a year later he/she proudly enters a show with his/her new acquisition and what’s the case , devoid from rose glasses , - the dog in question is not bad but really bad in type as well as in functionality , and no way can undergo a match in the ring , even not against the average Mastiff quality bred in his/her neighborhood . Huge financial investment incl travel expenses , result actually zero . Is this an exception ? No . Does it mean that all Mastiff people are false ? No . Does it mean that in Mastiffs the chance of disappointment is greater than in American Mastiffs ? There are no ‘satisfaction’ statistics available which may underpin a solid statement , but yes perhaps in Mastiffs the chance of disappointment is more lurking around the corner because the expectations may be definitely higher due to the reasons explained in the former paragraph .

 


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #222 
Inherent variability and disappointments go hand in hand in most giant breeds and is certainly a subject of concern in Mastiffs and a subject I've previously addressed in the past.

That's not the issue.

The issue, is that one breed is capitalizing on another through obvious and intentional misleading ads.

If I post a photo of the sire & dam of my Mastiff litter, then your pup from this litter does not turn out as anticipated and looks nothing like the sire or dam, it is disappointing, but it's not premeditated, or contrived.

It's the chance every Mastiff owner takes when buying a Mastiff. Even people well experienced in the breed!

BYB's & mills can certainly promote any breed with larceny in their hearts, but that's another matter.

When the AMMA founder states that the cross is identical to the Mastiff, it is an intentional act to distort the public's perception of the product being marketed.

Why you would equate that with general Mastiff variability is troubling!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #223 
Quote:
"Weakened' is still a subjective and unquantifiable term.



If so, then why did you state you would change your screen name, if I posted as though I were you?

Wouldn't that create confusion?

Wouldn't that confuse & weaken your identity?

If not, then why change your name???

Would you consider it subjective? If others would not change their name, would they still be pissed? If so, isn't it due to the same dynamic?

Perhaps we can't place an exact quantity, or level of angst produced by such a copycat action, but it's certainly universal in most human reactions to fraud, and in my view, that's definitely a quantified response.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #224 
Quote:
Steve
A simple answer: As I believe I have already stated, the statements on the Flying W's site appear to be actionable. And I believe I said 'take action'.


Isn't keeping the issue alive through Mastiff forums such as this, taking a form of action?

Yet, ironically, when this type of action is used to bring awareness to the subject, it is condemned by those who believe it to be self defeating.

Must every action of merit involve lawyers?

Must every protest be handled by the courts?

Have the AMMA people amended their wording because of silence? Or, because of their increasing awareness of potential liabilities to themselves, through protests such as mine & others on forums such as this!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #225 
I don't see the parallel in terms of sign-on names versus the Mastiff/ AMMA dispute. In my mind a more 'like' analogy would be if I were to choose NOT to use kcornel4 on this forum -- or even more apt, I had once used it, but since selected something different (let's say 'Karen'). For that reason kcornel4 was available, and you began using it. This would not create vast confusion imo, as I had become known as 'Karen'. It certainly would not cause angst, and if there was any confusion expressed, you could legitimately argue that I wasn't using it, and I would  concur that I had once used it, but since decided on 'Karen', hence kcornel4 was available.
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #226 
Quote:
I don't see the parallel in terms of sign-on names versus the Mastiff/ AMMA dispute.


It is there, nevertheless!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #227 
I'm just wondering if Howard Schultz of Starbucks would be slightly troubled, if a chain of identical coffee shops opened up calling themselves...............

American Starbucks!

No doubt it may be illegal, since we're not dealing in livestock, but wouldn't the same moral reasons still apply against such practices!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #228 
Seattle-based Starbucks Corp. is suing a competitor in Shanghai over use of their shared Chinese name.


In the land of tea, the world's best-known coffee chain is going to court to protect its name.

Seattle-based Starbucks Corp. is suing a competitor in Shanghai over use of their shared Chinese name, the company said Thursday — the latest in a growing number of copyright suits involving foreign firms here.

Starbucks said it filed the lawsuit on Dec. 23 against the Shanghai Xingbake coffee shop chain for trademark infringement after it was unable to settle out of court.

Both companies use the same three Chinese characters in their names — "Xingbake." In Chinese, "xing" means "star" and "bake" (bah-kuh) is a phonetic rendition of "-bucks."

The non-Starbucks company, Shanghai Xingbake, claims the name was registered as its company name, rather than as a trademark, making Starbucks' complaint invalid.

"We were disappointed that we were not able to come to an amicable agreement regarding this issue," Starbucks said in an e-mailed statement. "However, we will take legal steps to protect the value of our trademark, and protect the public from confusion and deception."

Starbucks has 37 stores in Shanghai and close to 100 in China, where it has hooked legions of middle-class customers after entering the market in 1999 with virtually no competition.


 
 

Xingbake is among the many smaller competitors hoping to give the global coffee giant a run for its money. General Manager Mao Yubo said his two-store chain had registered the name as its company title on March 9, 2000, before Starbucks had even applied.

He said Starbucks' suit was invalid because it alleged infringement of trademark rather than company name.

"We came first," Mao said. "We can't lose the case."

Foreign companies operating in China have increasingly turned to the law to protect their brands from rampant copyright piracy.

Chinese companies have also been turning to the courts to protect their names, something unheard of in the past.

Shanghai drinks maker Yaqing Industry and Trade has sued Coca Cola and its local bottler, claiming the characters for Coke's Qoo fruit drink — labeled "Ku-er" in Chinese — too closely resembled that of Yaqing's Kuhai drink.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #229 
Key words.............."protect the public from confusion and deception."

VS


"THE AMERICAN MASTIFF  looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc."

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #230 
Quote:
It is there, nevertheless!


Only in your mind.

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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #231 

There has been an 'evolution' of title and description on the Masitff side of things as well.

AKC introduction

The breed commonly called "Mastiff" in English-speaking countries is more properly described as the Old English Mastiff.

*******************************************************************

MCOA

The MCOA is dedicated to the health and welfare of the English Mastiff breed conserving its unique breed function as a gentle giant companion and family guardian.

A pure bred dog of this type offers to his owners that he will be of a specific size, shape, color and temperament.

The predictability of a breed comes from years of selection for traits that are desirable and away from those that are undesirable. However, when a breed standard or type is set, those animals within that set have less heterozygosity than animals in a random population.

A so called “American Mastiff” is nothing but a mixed breed when the English Mastiff is crossed with an Anatolian Shepherd or whatever, the resultant first generation offspring, because it is a gamble, the offspring become an unpredictable mix. Coat, body shape, height, color, head etc become a veritable crap shoot. Behavior and temperament, the most essential character of an English Mastiff, varies and centuries of breeding for predictable behavior is lost when breeding to a dog of questionable temperament.

The MCOA is opposed to the cross breeding of pure bred dogs for the purpose of whim and fancy. These mixed breed dogs are not exempt from but more prone to the known genetic diseases of both breeds. They offer none of the advantages that owning a pure bred has to offer.

We urge you to avoid this temptation to purchase a “designer Mastiff”. Be a prudent and informed buyer – search for reputable English Mastiff web sites and most importantly the web site of the Mastiff Club of America.

Remember that buying a dog is not buying the latest electronic equipment, designer handbag or item of in style fancy. Rather it is a long term commitment to a living animal and with prudent selection, should result in wonderful long term relationship.

By: Dr. William R. Newman
AKC Delegate of the Mastiff Club of America


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Reply with quote  #232 
"None so blind as those who will not see!".....Matthew Henry
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #233 

Obviously Starbucks is a trademarked ,  registered brand. Howard Schultz  had/has  a powerful vision of the brand, taste, quality ‘look and feel’, culture and customer experience he wanted to create. Starbuck’s brand identity is well established, and  its name recognition is excellent, both here and globally – Asia Pacific, Europe, North and South America, and the middle east.  If Howard Schultz were to encounter an  imitator establishing a chain using  Starbucks in its name, he would immediately institute legal action to block it.  This would happen immediately and at a high level. I don’t believe he would begin bickering on coffee forums with their management and employees, and /or use vitriolic language and personal attacks.

As someone who is a relatively recent entrant  to the ‘mastiff’ world, my observation is that clear ‘brand identity’ does not exist with the Mastiff – or rather the appellation.  I’m sure I don’t really need to point out to people that there are several  breeds in the family of Mollossers that contain the word ‘Mastiff’ in their names:  English Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Bull Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, German Mastiff, etc.  Most  include their country of origin, and these breeds are still known by these names as they became established in the United State. If their breed names were to change to reflect their American base, there would no differentiation at all. The Dogue De Bordeaux has not suddenly become the Dogue De Brooklyn, or something.  Whenever I mention I have a Mastiff – whether it is to friends or fellow mastiff owners -- I am immediately asked, ‘which one’?

There have been some breeds whose names have been changed to American _______(fill in the blank). However having spent some time reading the original breed names and standards, and their American appellation (e.g., English Bull dog/American Bull dog) and standards,  it is clear that in the US, breeders were selecting for an animal that was differentiated from its forbearers; whereas The ‘English Mastiff’ and the ‘Mastiff” have quite similar if not identical standards. The appellation 'American' (insert breed) has also frequently been used for other designer dogs conceptualised and created here in America.

If you Google ‘Mastiff’ you will generally find a statement similar to this: …. “ English Mastiff, the breed most commonly referred to when speaking of a "Mastiff".  I do realize that there once was a Mastiff club in this country that did use the name of ‘American Mastiff’, but as far as I know, it is no longer extant.  Other than that, I see no references to ‘our’ Mastiff being an “American Mastiff’ breed. Hence, I really don’t have an issue with the AMMA people using that designation to make it clear their dog is not the same as The Mastiff or The English Mastiff.

I do have issues with unsubstantiated (as of yet) claims about temperament, dry mouth and improved health.

But I think we should follow Howard Schultz’s example : When faced with stiff competition he made Starbucks products/services/ customer touch points better than the competition, marketed aggressively and reached out to communities.


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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #234 
"None so blind as those who will not see!".....Matthew Henry

Back at you, as my son is fond of saying....

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Reply with quote  #235 
American Mastiff Club 1879 = Mastiff

Mastiff in America 1492-present= American Mastiff

Mastiff Club of America 1920+1929-present= Mastiff

American Kennel Club Mastiff=Mastiff

SUDDENDLY..............

American Mastiff  (CKC 2000)= Anatolian cross ...identical to the Mastiff?

But Karen & others don't see any conflict, or comparison, due to the identical & historical club's name representing the Mastiff, or through the other bodies & entities, which have also incorporated America into references of the Mastiff proper!

Some believe this cross, that was formed in the 70s-80s and only recognized by the CKC in 2000 (13 years ago) deserves the rights to the AMERICAN prefix above & beyond the Mastiff proper in America!

Then to make matters worse, in the most ironic & bizarre bit of nonsense I've ever heard, the AMMA folks declare.....BEWARE OF IMPOSTERS!

Yet somehow, their supporters believe that I am missing the point!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #236 
It's fortunate that the MCOA copyrighted the standard for the AKC Mastiff  (AMERICAN KC MASTIFF)

From the AKC site....
"The Mastiff is described throughout history and literature denoting it's ongoing presence throughout England. The American Mastiff Club was formed in 1879, and some time thereafter disbanded. In 1920, the first Mastiff Club of America was founded and the present Club was established in 1929."

I have no doubts that the AMMA founder would have attempted to use the standard as written if she could have, since it would have validated her false written premise of identical type save drool!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #237 

Please document one instance when any of these organization has referred to  The Mastiff/The English Mastiff as ‘The American Mastiff’. The title of an organisation does not automatically confer the same appellation onto its constituents, nor can it be reasonably inferred that it does if no corroboration exists. I own an Oldenburg Stallion bred in Germany whom I imported to the US. Subsequently we joined the American Warmblood Society.  Equines registered with them did not suddenly become “American Warmbloods”.

Parallel to Grant’s argument that the Old English Mastiff Club should be construed as the Old English Club (for) Mastiffs; I would argue that the interpretation for these clubs then should be:

American Mastiff Club   = American Club for Mastiffs
Mastiff in America  = Mastiff in America
Mastiff Club of America  = Club in America for Mastiffs.

……Not ‘American Mastiffs’

More from the MCOA Site:

The English Mastiff vs. The American Mastiff.  A MUST Read!

What is a Mastiff?

A Mastiff is a giant breed of dog, descended from the ancient Alaunt and Molosser. Today, mastiff is used to describe many different breeds around the world, all descended from the same root stock.

In the US and other English speaking countries, Mastiff is used to refer to the Old English Mastiff (OEM), developed in England and nearly extinct after WW II.

 

One other point I should like to bring up – which may assist in explaining the low participation in this thread:  I have now spent literally hours Googling Mastiff breeders in the US. MANY use the nomenclature “English Mastiffs’ and ‘Old English Mastiffs’ in describing what they breed, including some prominent members of this forum. Others have used the term ‘Mastiff”. I have found not a SINGLE reference to ‘American Mastiffs’ with the exception of AMMA and AMMA oriented sites.

Hence, please explain how and why all the alleged 'confusion' is going to occur


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Reply with quote  #238 

It’s a given that certain Mastiff breeders promise too much ...

A short anthology – ‘making sure we provide you with the absolute best Mastiff puppy available’ – ‘very best mastiff pedigrees from Europe and the United Kingdom in an effort to produce the ultimate English Mastiff dog’ – ‘Breeding the best Mastiffs to the best with no compromising ‘, &c , &c .

Still not an issue ? Here it not only goes about promising a healthy AKC registered Mastiff puppy of show quality , here it goes about promising people a canine ‘heaven on earth’ , that in full awareness that flyers in Mastiffland are really really rare and even in quite some instances to be considered as only lucky shots . In that respect , it’s unrealistic & unfair to arouse such high hopes towards potential (new) buyers in regard to every puppy bred by that breeder in question .

Capitalizing on another through obvious and intentional misleading ads is indeed to disapprove . But look it this way – I want to buy an American Mastiff and I read the standard and it says – looks like a Mastiff , &c , &c ; the first I and probably every other potential buyer shall do is to look after visualisation , after photographs which are to be found in a great number . And I appraise those pics . Is that what I want ? Yes , OK . Or no , the pics of American Mastiffs present not what I want , but hey , why not look at pics of Mastiffs , said to be the lookalike ? Hmmm , that’s something different , perhaps I rather may go for a Mastiff . – A simplistic story but perhaps not far from reality .

People , even more than in the past , are VISUAL beings ; many may only read a text diagonally but jump upon concomitant images while focusing them much more intensely than the text . Quite understandable as looking at an image is usually more entertaining than reading and it thereby asks less concentration .

So , perhaps the impact of the sentence ‘the American Mastiff looks like a Mastiff’ (or something like that) , seems to be rather overrated . Most people are not stupid and look farther than the length of their nose (in this case the sentence hereabove) .


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #239 

Obviously Starbucks is a trademarked ,  registered brand. Howard Schultz  had/has  a powerful vision of the brand, taste, quality ‘look and feel’, culture and customer experience he wanted to create. Starbuck’s brand identity is well established, and  its name recognition is excellent, both here and globally – Asia Pacific, Europe, North and South America, and the middle east.  If Howard Schultz were to encounter an  imitator establishing a chain using  Starbucks in its name, he would immediately institute legal action to block it.  This would happen immediately and at a high level. I don’t believe he would begin bickering on coffee forums with their management and employees, and /or use vitriolic language and personal attacks. So why did it take 13 years for him to seek action against the company name of the interloper? The interloper claims first rights from 2000. Plus, the defense of the counterfeiter is something you might justify, since he is arguing a Chinese legality about corporate and not trademarked issues. Perhaps legal in China, but morally wrong! Schultz is a billionaire with lawyers on retainer and he's not dealing with a nebulous loophole and limited funds, as we Mastiff folks are at present!

As someone who is a relatively recent entrant  to the ‘mastiff’ world, my observation is that clear ‘brand identity’ does not exist with the Mastiff – or rather the appellation.  I’m sure I don’t really need to point out to people that there are several  breeds in the family of Mollossers that contain the word ‘Mastiff’ in their names:  English Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Bull Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, German Mastiff, etc.  Most  include their country of origin, and these breeds are still known by these names as they became established in the United State. If their breed names were to change to reflect their American base, there would no differentiation at all. The Dogue De Bordeaux has not suddenly become the Dogue De Brooklyn, or something.  Whenever I mention I have a Mastiff – whether it is to friends or fellow mastiff owners -- I am immediately asked, ‘which one’? Therefore an American Dogue De Bordeaux can be a different breed, in your view, and not be stepping on any legit DDB breeder's toes!
The German Mastiff went by a number of various names and was settled as the Great Dane elsewhere. It created confusion, since a German Mastiff represented different breeds. On the other hand, if the German Mastiff represented the Mastiff in Germany, there would be little issue. Established breeds should have domain over any countries prefix, even if not used frequently, in order to prevent the very thing we are debating.

There have been some breeds whose names have been changed to American _______(fill in the blank). However having spent some time reading the original breed names and standards, and their American appellation (e.g., English Bull dog/American Bull dog) and standards,  it is clear that in the US, breeders were selecting for an animal that was differentiated from its forbearers; whereas The ‘English Mastiff’ and the ‘Mastiff” have quite similar if not identical standards. The appellation 'American' (insert breed) has also frequently been used for other designer dogs conceptualised and created here in America. Please note, it's not an American English Bulldog. Which once again would confuse. Identical breeds that diverge in type between countries over time, may affix a new country label to distinguish itself from it's original form. In effect, creating another variety of the same breed. If both breeds were to claim identical characteristics, there would be issues. If the Mastiff in America eventually adopted the American Mastiff formal name, due to a different standard (AKC vs KC, etc.), which created a wide divergence between types here & abroad, it should have this exclusive right and it should be reserved for the existing breed, namely the Mastiff in America, not some new designer wannabe! As it stands, there are already markers, that designate American Mastiff as representing the Mastiff in America. It doesn't matter if it's out of date legally, since this is a moral issue of right & wrong.

If you Google ‘Mastiff’ you will generally find a statement similar to this: …. “ English Mastiff, the breed most commonly referred to when speaking of a "Mastiff".  I do realize that there once was a Mastiff club in this country that did use the name of ‘American Mastiff’, but as far as I know, it is no longer extant.  Other than that, I see no references to ‘our’ Mastiff being an “American Mastiff’ breed. Hence, I really don’t have an issue with the AMMA people using that designation to make it clear their dog is not the same as The Mastiff or The English Mastiff. We disagree on this. I on moral grounds, you on legal grounds, which have not yet been tested in the courts!

I do have issues with unsubstantiated (as of yet) claims about temperament, dry mouth and improved health.

But I think we should follow Howard Schultz’s example : When faced with stiff competition he made Starbucks products/services/ customer touch points better than the competition, marketed aggressively and reached out to communities. We are not a billion dollar international conglomerate with deep pockets. We are a breed club, with many members who might not care about this issue, since it affects mostly breeders and the image of the Mastiff in America over time. That's the reality and every issue involving club efforts is an uphill battle. Even when it's clearly obvious to most on moral grounds.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #240 
Then I would encourage you to stop falling back on corporate examples, which as you have just demonstrated are not apt analogies.
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Reply with quote  #241 
Karen, if someone asked you if you imported your Mastiff from another country, it wouldn't be wrong if you respond with,...."no, it's an American Mastiff!"

The questioner should not have to then believe it's an Anatolian cross!

Sure, you could respond differently, "no, it's a Mastiff bred in America", or a number of alternatives. But the point being, is that you shouldn't have to qualify further had you said the first response!

The Mastiff has been in this country for too many years to now be subjected to this additional confusion.

Not to mention ever increasing rescue numbers, due to added breedings through AMMA enthusiasts.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #242 
I agree very much with Marcel's perspective and example, which in my mind is bolstered by your remark that initiated this discussion: You showed the images of two AMMAs from the soon to be published book, and commented "Exactly like the Mastiff, but without the drool?" and, next, 'The trapezoidal head shape is not a Mastiff ideal, nor can it be compared to one'. Hence, clearly your intent is for viewers to conclude that the AMMA does NOT look exactly like the Mastiff -- which, indeed, in images of most individuals I have seen thus far, generally does not. As Marcel said potential buyers are not stupid, nor do I believe them blind and clueless.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #243 

It’s a given that certain Mastiff breeders promise too much ...Agreed!

A short anthology – ‘making sure we provide you with the absolute best Mastiff puppy available’ – ‘very best mastiff pedigrees from Europe and the United Kingdom in an effort to produce the ultimate English Mastiff dog’ – ‘Breeding the best Mastiffs to the best with no compromising ‘, &c , &c .Certainly no guarantees, but perhaps a sincere effort made to show an involved breeder, not a BYB. Or, a breeder in a competitive area looking to impress new potential buyers. Still no certainty of wrong doing. Far cry from selling & promoting a cross breed, based on drool production and other stated nonsense!

Still not an issue ? Here it not only goes about promising a healthy AKC registered Mastiff puppy of show quality , here it goes about promising people a canine ‘heaven on earth’ , that in full awareness that flyers in Mastiffland are really really rare and even in quite some instances to be considered as only lucky shots . In that respect , it’s unrealistic & unfair to arouse such high hopes towards potential (new) buyers in regard to every puppy bred by that breeder in question . Any unrealistic and distorted exaggerations are to be frowned upon, even in Mastiff circles. No argument here!

Capitalizing on another through obvious and intentional misleading ads is indeed to disapprove . But look it this way – I want to buy an American Mastiff and I read the standard and it says – looks like a Mastiff , &c , &c ; the first I and probably every other potential buyer shall do it to look after visualisation , after photographs which are to be found in a great number . And I appraise those pics . Is that what I want ? Yes , OK . Or no , the pics of American Mastiffs present not what I want , but hey , why not look at pics of Mastiffs , said to be the lookalike ? Hmmm , that’s something different , perhaps I rather may go for a Mastiff . – A simplistic story but perhaps not far from reality . Fortunately, we are not as gullible as the clueless newbie looking at related pictures and with limited funds. The appeal of certain photos in specific sites can enhance the visualizations and make some appear better than they are. If they distort what's in print, they can distort photos as well. We've seen many photos used by some breeders of another breeder's dogs, it's not uncommon!

People , even more than in the past , are VISUAL beings ; many may only read a text diagonally but jump upon concomitant images while focusing them much more intensely than the text . Quite understandable as looking at an image is usually more entertaining than reading and it thereby asks less concentration .

So , perhaps the impact of the sentence ‘the American Mastiff looks like a Mastiff’ (or something like that) , seems to be rather overrated . Most people are not stupid and look farther than the length of their nose (in this case the sentence hereabove) . I disagree with you about most people!
I've found that they don't see them as separate breeds, they see them as separate types and base their decisions on that.
They like them with longer snouts, or leggier, or more Dane-like and rationalize it, based on those parameters plus others.
To them it's still a Mastiff! Just of another type.
In truth, it's not a Mastiff and it's type is way more variable than our Mastiffs coming from reputable breeders with years of experience. True, you may not get tons of flyers, or MCOA specialty winners with every dedicated breeding, but your chances are much better using well known Mastiff breeders, compared to newbie breeders of a cross with unknown origins, or breeding practices.
Therein lies the rub, in that it's labeled as an American Mastiff, when in truth it's not!
It's a recently formed Anatolian Hybrid of unknown heritage, with claims of identical forms to our own.
I've seen it said in print, on some AMMA breeder sites, stating Ms. Wagner as a well known Mastiff breeder, prior to her excursion into the unknown.
I've never heard of her in Mastiff circles prior to the AMMA , have you?


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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kcornel4

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Karen, if someone asked you if you imported your Mastiff from another country, it wouldn't be wrong if you respond with,...."no, it's an American Mastiff!"
Actually I would answer "No, he's an English Mastiff'. Or I might say (as I actually have responded to that question), "No, he was bred in here in the US", I would never think to say 'No it's an American Mastiff'. If I were to 'mis-speak' and say such a thing, I would immediately clarify " That is, he was bred in the US".

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Sure, you could respond differently ....or a number of alternatives. But the point being, is that you shouldn't have to qualify further had you said the first response!

Quote:
The Mastiff has been in this country for too many years to now be subjected to this additional confusion.


This last comment is a projection and an assumption of what might or could happen.  I have seen no evidence that the term 'American Mastiff' is in common parlance amongst our Mastiff breeders. Please refer to my post #247. In any event, as I have previously related, and KarenK pointed out, "Mastiff" is also used as a generic term for molossers. When I say 'Mastiff', the question is invariably "Which kind"? I certainly don't find it a huge imposition to further clarify.


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Not to mention ever increasing rescue numbers, due to added breedings through AMMA enthusiasts.
What is the evidence for this? I also believe prolific breeders in our community constitute a more significant problem. There are only (I see current figures ranging from) 8 to 11 approved AM breeders (including one in China and One in the Philippines) There are vastly more Mastiff breeders in just my state.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #245 
Karen, there are other photos that show the AMMA as more Mastiff-like and can easily fool those unprepared and new to Mastiffs.




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #246 
http://www.picturesdepot.com/tags/1/american+mastiff.html

Please note the "American" Mastiff lower right in the above site.
.
This is why the name being used is wrong for this cross breed!

I believe the nice looking "American" Mastiff listed, is indeed a fine looking Mastiff bitch bred by Jann (Goldleaf)!

Therefore, this photo was intentionally used to lure in Mastiff buyers by some AMMA creep, or a listing of an American bred Mastiff, entered as American Mastiff in error.

In either case, and I lean towards the former not the latter, it's why the AMMA name is inappropriately and immorally wrong for this cross-bred newbie.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
MarcelWynants

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Reply with quote  #247 

Quote - Still no certainty of wrong doing . Really ? Those Mastiff breeders are hiding the truth , ie 1) that flyers (who they promise in different wordings) are really rare and 2) that one may be already very happy when being able to purchase a healthy puppy of about average show quality !

By the way , I’ve seen no pics of American Mastiffs which might suit the idea of a Mastiff lookalike (with - or without photoshopping) .

If people like them with longer snouts , &c – what’s the problem ? It’s their choice and their belief and one has to respect it .

Regarding ‘Ms Wagner vs Mastiffs’ I have to agree , I’ve never heard of her . Don’t know anything about the quality she owned &/or bred , a given which gives rise to the presumption it were rather Mastiffs of average quality . And perhaps there’s the clue for that presently notorious sentence – ‘American Mastiffs look like Mastiffs , &c’ , -  ie Ms Wagner’ point of reference may not have been the cream of Mastiff breeding in America but sheer the Mastiffs around her and perhaps those of nearby befriended breeders of unknown fame .

 


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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #248 
Steve is right, the bottom right Mastiff is NOT an AMMA!  Has anyone contacted Jan about the unauthorized use of a picture of HER Mastiff?

Furthermore, it's obviously not an AMMA in phenotype and also one can see it is IN A SHOW RING!!!!!

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Kristie in Texas
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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #249 
And this isn't the first time, they have used Mastiff pictures in the false advertising of their mixed breed.....
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #250 
If I may also point out, PicturesDepot is not owned or operated by the AMMA organisation. Any individual can submit pictures, and there are a number of 'tags' one can append -- which are selections amongst site categories (i.e., animals, dogs, mastiffs, American Mastiffs etc etc.).
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