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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #101 
"a depression up centre of forehead from median line between eyes, to half way up sagittal suture."....from the OEM standard


In profile, the "stop" can be seen as the point at the orbit. In the illustrated standard, the measurement of the muzzle length is taken from this angle.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mastiffassociation.com/assets/head.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mastiffassociation.com/Info/standard.htm&h=165&w=180&sz=5&hl=en&start=84&um=1&tbnid=gL1JyJkSRxcUcM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsagittal%2Bsuture%2Bdogs%26start%3D80%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-10,GGLJ:en%26sa%3DN

In the "head on" shot, the actual "stop" (located in the sagittal suture region) can be up to 1/2 inch passed the orbits in some dogs. If that point is used as the "stop", the head, upon measuring could be skewed.


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #102 
Too much of a rectangular head becomes a Great Dane.  The heads I've seen are narrow and rectangular...  Let's not mislead the newbies Steve. 

How is it that all can appreciate a good quality Mastiff when it is posted on the forum. 

It takes a lot of honesty with one's breeding program.  I cannot help but LAUGH when I hear that a newbie had this wonderful litter of pups...  11... ALL SHOW QUALITY... and being sold for $3,000!!!  With a contract that demands them all to be shown!!!  AND a 100% against GENETIC defects!!!

Now, how can ANYONE guarantee against genetic defects?  That is false advertising!  NO ONE can EVER guarantee this!  This is where the majority of the problems lie...  How do you fix this scenario Steve?  (Acutally, this is a true story....)




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Reply with quote  #103 

Zorba at 7 years old and his younger brother who won best puppy of 1985 and winner of famous Withybush Puppy Cup--Aicama Ursa of La Susa

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #104 
NOTE*

Enlarge the second photo and please determine where the dogs "STOP" would begin!!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #105 

1989-Guinness World Record book:  the heaviest individual dog ever recorded is Aicama Zorba of La Susa whelped Sept 26. 1981.  owned by Chris Eraclides of London in 1987 tipped the scales at 314 1/2 lbs shoulder height 35 inches, chest girth 52 inches, 36 1/2 inch neck and nose to tail length of 8 feet 3 inches



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Reply with quote  #106 

Zorba's Mom and Zorba at age 2 years

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #107 

A large bitch and large *son, who lived longer than most smaller mastiffs!


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #108 
"... Enlarge the second photo and please determine where the dogs "STOP" would begin!!..."
 
Steve, a stop is something you have to feel, but nevertheless, you'll recognize a good length of muzzle when you see it.


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Reply with quote  #109 

Here is Zorba and his owner and Zorba's American Bred Father --Stablemate's Bruno of Kismu with owner Mrs. Irene Creigh




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Reply with quote  #110 
... A large bitch and large *son, who lived longer than most smaller mastiffs!...
 
Zorba's mother was English and wasn't that big at all. Zorba's father "Stablemates Bruno" was an American import and was from what I heard a criple dog. Stablemates btw was a Rottweiler kennel.
I don't think the size has anything to do with longevity. The dogs I know that got really old most of the time all were fed properly i.e. with meat.
Honeycroft Danny Boy, 30" but 265 lbs. He was the "son" of butchers.
He became 14 years. Same goes for Zorba.


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Reply with quote  #111 

Zorba's dad was Bruno and his sire was Ch. Little Atlas of Massalane and the grandsire of Zorba was Ch. Reville Big Thunder winner of MCOA National Specialty 3 years straight 1974-1975 and 1976.  Zorba's breeder was Mrs. I. Prosser and his mother was Gildsan Valentine Daisy of Aicama.

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #112 
 
"Steve, a stop is something you have to feel, but nevertheless, you'll recognize a good length of muzzle when you see it."

Carl,

Should that description of yours be in the standard?

When you showed your squares, you drew a line across the eyes, which represented your "stop". That in profile measure is used quite often and can skew the real measure if the "true" stop is used.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #113 

Steve, I didn't draw a line that represented "my stop". I tried to explain, with a drawing what is meant in the Standard. I really can't see how more precise you can say that the muzzle should be 1/3 of the whole head. Every breeder should know that you have to feel a dog's face to feel it's stop. I don't need that in the Standard, this is common knowledge. This is the advandage when you breed once in a while and have a Mastiff. You simply know these things.

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Reply with quote  #114 
Carl,

In your experience as a breeder, how many dogs as a percentage, would fall into a 1/3:2/3 when measured from the "felt" stop as opposed to the profiled measuring illustration, similar to those pictured in the illustrated standards?

The reason I ask, is that in some photos, real dogs are used in profile and the first third of the measure is up to the eye orbit rather than the "felt" stop. So are you saying that those pictured as the ideal in profile, are in fact wrong?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #115 
"... So are you saying that those pictured as the ideal in profile, are in fact wrong?..."
No, the authors are trying to explain as well as possible what is meant. Not always easy to understand by a newbie in the breed.

Look at your own description from your standard:
"... Center line of forehead angled approx. 35-45 degrees between the eyes and at its peek thereby forming the highest part of the head, which then levels off flat until it meets the occiputal point..."
 
35-45 degrees between the eyes????? Isn't that a bit sharp.
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Reply with quote  #116 

Zorba's grand dam was Stablemates Lady of the Lake.. I saw her she was A BIG girl.. I had a puupy out of her that I won the puppy class at the 82 nationals. I then exported her to Japan.. Anyway Lady was a big girl I will go threw some of my pictures and post the couple I took of her.. You are right Carl , Cynthia did also have rotties..

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Reply with quote  #117 
Quoting Carl
"Honeycroft Danny Boy, 30" but 265 lbs."

Id be very interested to see some pictures of this fellow



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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #118 
Well, since the standard stated that the stop is well marked, but not too abrupt, then it can't just go vertical off the bridge of the nose. Therefore, a gradual degree is needed before it approaches the top of the forehead, the exact angle is open for review.

Bear in mind, that I stated that this "revised standard" was a compromised first draft and there would need to be a committee formed that would all have an input into determining better language and more precise meaning.

It was an attempt at combining both standards, but I'm not adverse to a standard based on the tenets of the OEM standard and built up from there.

It was not in stone.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #119 
Steve, I can see what you're trying to explain but imo it should be 125-135 degrees and NOT 35-45 degrees.
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #120 
That's correct Carl.  See how a group meeting would clarify detail?...LOL

BTW,


Not to use other breeds, but we don't wish to offend any mastiff owners.

The dog on the left has little indentation at the stop, whereas the dog on the right, has that indentation and no doubt his stop begins further past the orbits of the eye. The difference of these characteristics not only changes the dimensions of the head to muzzle ratio, but also affects expression and type.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #121 

Ch. Reveille Big Thunder shown by Adelaide Bolte--Grand sire of Zorba

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Reply with quote  #122 

Deb - thank you for all of the great pictures  I am really enjoying them!!


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Reply with quote  #123 

Zorba is getting most of that beef from his dams side!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #124 
You may be right Steve.  The Reveille Dogs had a distinct look and head.  Here is CH. Reveille Lightening.  Please look at his head and Thunder--then look back at Zorba's head--you can see some similar looks to it.  I wonder if Zorba was like Andre the Giant--The huge wrestler/movie star.  He was a giant but it was from a medical issue.  The 2 year old picture of this boy were he came in 2nd to MM does not look like a giant dog in the making.

Thank you Linda, I am not good at this scanning but since the thread was Zorba--I thought people would like to see some of the pictures.

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Reply with quote  #125 
I'm just going by my Boulder and Trek, half brothers and Trek being the grandsire of Zorba!

Weight (fat) was the one thing they lacked. The picture of Zorba's dam shows where the "beef" entered into the picture.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #126 
Thumper was not a very large mastiff.

He was well knit and had many good qualities for his day, in limited competition.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #127 

Bump


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Reply with quote  #128 

so the tallest ever was 35" and 343 pounds wow that one large dog.



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Reply with quote  #129 

Bump for Les in the UK, I think we all agree Large and Massive does not mean Fat and please check out "Where the Beef is" Thread...........there you will see which Breeders have large and Massive but you will see some Fat also there.............if you look hard you will notice who knows the difference. 

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Reply with quote  #130 
NOW HERE HE IS AT 8 YEARS SHOWN IN A POSITION THAT I THINK SHOWS HIS REAL BUILD IN A GOOD LIGHT, I HAVE HAD THIS CLIPPING FOREVER...THE TALK IN OUR HOUSE WAS ALWAYS THAT HE WAS VERY VERY GOOD FOR SUCH A LARGE SPECIMEN SINCE USUALLY THINGS GET DISTORTED AND ODD LOOKING ON MUCH LARGER THAN NORMAL LIVING CREATURES.

1989-IN MY OPINION A VERY NICE DOG.

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Reply with quote  #131 
Wow, thanks for starting this thread. its very hard to find decent pics of Zorba. plus, you don't really hear much about his lineage and history.
For me, Zorba was a clear cut testament of the potential of the breed. still able to look spectacular despite his size.


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Reply with quote  #132 
I'm a little confused here.  Did Zorba have some sort of pituitary issue that made him that size?  Or was he just some kind of anomaly that has never happened before or since?  If it wasn't a health issue, shouldn't another like him pop up sooner or later?

I've never seen a dog nearly that size, but want to.  Conformation is obviously paramount, and there are some beautiful dogs out there, but I still want to see a dog so big it takes my breath away.  I've heard people speak of some, but I've not yet had the pleasure of viewing one in person. 


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Reply with quote  #133 
I often wondered that myself, his age in death does not show it was, but then I heard he died before that age but the owner did not want to loose the tittle and did not allow people to have access to him.  It could be just rumor and maybe the UK can say what they believe.

Normally this type of size leads to early death in normal Mastiffs, Zorba did not reproduce the size, although it is my understand some were a good d size but normal.  But then sometimes just the right genes happen, but normally size is passed on.  It is an interesting question of why him???????
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Reply with quote  #134 
I saw Zorba in the flesh, as well as some of the American dogs mentioned. The thing that set Zorba apart was his great length, though I am certain he was nothing like his maximum weight when I saw him in 1988. The most impressive dog I have ever seen, however, was Deer Run Florister Rufus, who was the sire if the 1983 MCOA National Specialty winner Old School's Ursa Major. He was of no great height, but his substance and bone were unbelievable.


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Reply with quote  #135 
That Deer Run boy sounds sort of like Ch Mighty Joe Young Bearhill.  He also, is perhaps around 32" in height, but has bone and substance to die for.  I'd love to know his actual weight, because I've seen him alongside other dogs that claimed to be 220lbs, and Joe made them look little. 

Another male whose bone and substance impressed me greatly was Ch Audley Farms Family Jules.  Pictures don't do him justice.  That boy is enormous. 

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Reply with quote  #136 
Quote:
1983 MCOA National Specialty winner Old School's Ursa Major

Who was also a huge girl! I never got to see her in person but everone that I have talked that has said she was the biggest bitch they have ever seen..

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Reply with quote  #137 

Chris ,Joe is 33" and 225 lbs.


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Reply with quote  #138 
Thanks Mary.  I have a few pics of Joe from Bucks and he's much, much bigger than the dogs in his vicinity.  He is one of the more impressive dogs I've seen in person. 

Another very impressive specimen is Honey, out of Lazy D.  I know that it's usually the males that scream substance and grandeur, but this girl is every bit as impressive as her male counterparts.   

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Reply with quote  #139 
I have met Joe a few times and if it is true that he is only 225, then other people are either lying about the size of their dogs or their dogs are fat.  Joe is impressive without looking overdone.  The only dogs that I've seen next to Joe in the ring that look as massive and well put together are Southport's Grant and the Einbinder's George. 

The Mastiff "weight chart" posted on this site leads us to believe that Joe is average or even under average.  If any of you have seen this boy in person, you would agree that he is nothing close to average. 

A dog is about the whole package.  Iron Hills' Butler was no more than 175-180, but I have yet to see that many dogs that could stand up to him in the ring.

I have seen many champion photos on this site showing dogs that look to be no more than 150-160.  These dogs are winning.  Joe, at 225, dwarfs these dogs and is correct as well.

I'd love to get an accurate weight of all of the current winning Mastiffs.  I doubt that too many would be the size of Joe.  Joe looks great at 225, but other dogs can look equally as good at 180.  It is all about the total package.

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Reply with quote  #140 
You will find most lie about size and weight. 33 '' is not an average its above average. the average is 30' 180 lbs. Sorry everyone but the truth is the truth. Most of those 30 in 180 lb dogs people will swear are 32 in and 220.
Could you post a picture of Joe?

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Reply with quote  #141 
H-Man,

I, also, was surprised to learn Joe to be 225lbs.  Next to most others in the specials ring, he does look very, very large, especially through that gigantic chest of his.  I would have pegged Joe to be 240lbs, easy. 

I also agree that many perceived weights may be off.  Reading through this thread, I noticed that someone claimed a European dog to be 30" and 260lbs?  I can't even imagine what that dog would look like.  Is it even possible?  Wasn't Medicine Man supposed to be 30"-31"?  What did he weigh at that height?  After watching the video of him, I think it's safe to say he was about as wide as you can create, while maintaining overall balance.  That said, how is 260lbs possible at that height? 

My brother in law has seen Heather (Magi Mastiffs) George's "Sarge" in person and describes him as much larger than my Poudre, who is a pretty big boy himself.  My brother in law is not one to exaggerate, so I believe that boy must assuredly be as large as listed, which is something like 35" and 260lbs.  That is a lot of dog. 

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Reply with quote  #142 

Cole is about 31 or 31 1/2 inches and he weighs 207 last weighing.


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Poudre has been officially "wicketed" twice, at two separate venues.  He was 33.5" at one and 34" at another.  At last week's vet appt.(he turned 2 years old) he was 235lbs. 


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you can see poudre is a big boy!


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Reply with quote  #145 

Yes I can see Poudre is huge and he is even going to get lots wider. He is a beautiful boy.


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the next year will be real  fun to watch poudre I'm glad we show in the same areas this will allow me to keep seeing him in person, there are great things to come from that boy!, and yes he truly is huge! in all ways, believe me this boy has stepped on my foot a few times!  ouch!!!!!!!!!!


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Reply with quote  #147 
Hi All,

I was there when Zorba was born, {as well as being nearby when he was conceived ~ and anyone who has Mastiffs and breeds from them then you know it sometimes can be a 4 handed job with a bale of straw as a prop, and yes I know of some who never needed a helping hand as well}.

Portia was Zorba's Mum's pet name, and yes her KC was Gildasan Valentine Daisy of Aicama. Reading what you wrote sure has taken me back. And that photo of Portia is of her sitting on a wall on Lowestoft's north beach.

Mrs. Prosser fell in love with Zorba's dad Bruno and we reckoned he has the biggest mastiff head ever, and so she let our family pet Portia be mated with Bruno.

He was imported from America and so had been in quarantine for 6 months which as you know they did back then. Any owners of mastiff babies know that, they need enough exercise to use and stretch those muscles, but not too much to prematurely wear their soft cartilaginous joints out. So Bruno did not receive the adequate exercise to allow free movement of his rear and stifle, that was of course so in the quarantined early days. As you may have experienced yourselves from certain directions, the mastiff world is quite small and even smaller 30 years ago, so people came and saw Irene Creigh’s new import and made their judgements then. I saw Bruno over a number of years and in time his movement became fluid, and was such an impressive boy.

All Zorba’s litter were beautiful and very large puppies, and it was his breeding that created him and his siblings not a defective pituitary gland, maybe back in the eons of time the height came from great dane, although I don’t know that as fact, but I am aware that the Mastiff breed waned in the second world war years here in Britain and something had to be injected into the breed to keep it going, but as I can not remember the story as it is so long ago when I was told, so please do your own research, but that was the Mastiffs in England, what was happening in America is probably laid down in history somewhere. Although I suspect by looking on another of this site’s threads it could be suggested that the St. Bernard was out in the Pied mastiffs, just as I remember it was suggested years ago that the St. Bernard was used to help the after war dwindling numbers and gave the Mastiff breed its frowned upon long coats.

Portia was never shown as she was bought when she was 9 months old and was “outside world shy”, and try as we might to take her for walks she hated walking in the street and just do the boneless mass thing and if any Mastiff owner has experienced this it is near on impossible to move them other than let them make the hasty retreat back home. As a family pet she was the best, I was 13 when she was brought home unexpected and my brother was 4, and two sisters in between, none of us knew what a Mastiff was, just that it was a bigger breed of dog, we soon found out and what a pleasure our journey with the Mastiff it has been……….

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Reply with quote  #148 

mastiffvet2.jpg


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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