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Kayla

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 8
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi everyone i would like to share my experience with spaying or neutering mastiff breeds to young .first they just don't grow normally they are at risk for acl tears ,hipdisplacer and ostero arthritis and spinal deformities .we lost our baby last month .she was only 4 years old .
i also have a great dane she is 5 she was also was spayed to young she is built like a greyhound  and weighs only 100 pounds .her head is also shaped like a grey hound .thankfully only mild hipdisplasia .which i have her on nu pro silver .
I would wait till these breeds are fully grown before this procedure .
i also have a English mastiff a 5 month old male and i will wait till he is fully grown .even more so because he was the runt of the litter ,but growing quickly .Wouldn't want anyone to go through what we went through . thanks for the pm i couldnt get it to return .

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Reply with quote  #2 

Thanks Kayla. It's nice of you to share your bad experience to help others.


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Reply with quote  #3 
I think it is great to share your story. Everyone has different views and opinions on what age to spay/neuter their giant breed dogs. However, I don't think your dogs are proof that spaying/neutering giant breeds results in the problems your dogs have had. There are many things that can contribute to those ailments that may be un-related. I mean this in a friendly manner  There are scientific studies for both, so I think that decision becomes a personal one that the individual is comfortable with

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Reply with quote  #4 

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MMc

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thats very sad. Sorry you dealt with that. But may I ask where you got your dog? Genetics have a much bigger part with those problems your dog had...more than an early spay.

My mom has a dog from my breeder. The original owner was ill and for her safety and the pup, he was fixed at 5months old. My mom got him when he was about 6 months. He has a bit of an undeveloped head...but only in comparison to his litterkmates. He is now 2 yrs old and weighs about 170lbs.
His bone is good, and he looks every bit a mastiff. And other than a bit of pano before he was 1yr old...no health problems whatsoever.

Im not an advocate of early spay and neuter. But every situation is different. My breeder ok'd the fix on this dog early, because she knew it was best for the dog in this situation. And it hasnt harmed him in the least. But he came from full tested parents and a has a good history of health in his lines. THAT makes the difference I think, not so much the early spay and neuter.

I think everyone needs to sit back, evaluate their situation...ie, if they have other dogs in the house, kids, living situations etc. READ the research on the ages of when to spay...and then make a decision that suits them.

Again, Im sorry for what you went through. Its never easy to watch a beloved pet be in pain.

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Reply with quote  #6 
Excellent article on the benefits and the draw backs.  Each breed is different......the spay after the second heat on a Mastiff does not seem to affect their look............but the neutering of the dog.........does affect the bone and development .  IMPO there is too much damage done to a Male to neuter early.......I want people to neuter for many reasons but what you purchase a dog or bitch for is the Breed look and type..........the Mastiff does not fair well when done to early.  Most vets will recommend it, but they just do not know the giant breeds well enough.  Dr. Hutchinson in Ohio, and Doc Robin are experts in Mastiffs and they will tell you the bone is affected and it is in the strength of it, not just the look.

PDF]

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter ...

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed,. age, and gender are variables that must be ...
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf - Similar pages





Reply with quote  #7 
Higher risk of osteosarcoma - This is science not voodoo or subjective speculation.
Qaletaqa

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Higher risk of osteosarcoma - This is science not voodoo or subjective speculation.



YEP !

waiting for the results on the  zinc shot for males, Wonder what the long term effect will be on that.

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Reply with quote  #9 
Anybody have experience with when to neuter and changes observed? We tend to lean toward "if it aint broke dont fix it" philosophy, but do see potential health benefits and risks with procedure. Our baby boy Kyzur just turned 13 months. He has been marking territory for long time now and trying to start a family with our female. We haven't told him yet she's spayed, but he hasn't really figured out what he's doing yet anyway. Our female is a mix and does quite well at telling him "no" but also helps she is super high energy and too small to make things match up well. He hasn't shown any signs of aggression with males, or humping legs, or marking territory inside, but just around one year old he started getting very aggressive with our female. Snapping hard at here and keeping her captive in a room or corner. The last straw was when I was laying on floor by him petting and spoiling him and he snapped at our girl when she came close which ended up with me catching his tooth on my head and bleeding. He for sure was not going after me and has not shown that for anyone in the house. So we thought this was escalating and best to neuter asap. Of course long wait to get him in and still a week away. The thing is, that almost exactly from the day he had pre-neuter checkup 3 weeks ago he has been super sweet. No more keeping our girl captive and no more of the overly aggressive snapping. Now we are having second thoughts and wondering if we reacted to quick, or are now just getting cold feet. We have no intention of breeding him and not worried about keeping control of him to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Basically we cant decide if leaving him intact will allow for the aggression to arise again or if neutering him now at 13 months will be too early for his best health & growth. We would feel a lot better to hear from anyone who has seen aggression come and go at about this age in their own baby boy. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated as we are truly rookies. Oh, Kyzur is 125 lbs and about 30, maybe just under 31 inches at shoulders. he does still have a slightly taller rear but the front has been catching up and it appeared he will even out soon. Sorry for the long message but I'm a paranoid papa.
Debi

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Reply with quote  #10 
I go through the same thing with Sam at the age of 14 months . what he is showing is dominance towards the little lady .what i do is tell Sam no in a stern voice and to leave it . they are working on hormones I correct Sam when he bothers the girls in the house and they are both spayed he tries to mount my Great Dane but she sits down as a older girl i had her spayed early at 6 months i didn't know any better she is built more like a greyhound then a Dane . Sadly Kayla was my dog we lost her to having her spayed to early her growth plates never fused properly confirmed by the vet .
with Sam i am waiting till he is two or if its necessary ,but for now i dint have any real problems with him .enclose is a pic of the Dane as a example she has mild hip dysplasia which i treat with nu pro with joint guard .

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Unread post Today at 10:36 AM #1

Research into dog mobility problems

 

Jo Power, Reporter, North America

01 July 2008

 

 

 

 

Castrating or spaying dogs may increase the risks of hip dysplasia (HD) or cranial cruciate ligament deficiency (CCLD), researchers have discovered.

Dr Tige Witsberger and a group of associates examined the records of over 1.2 million dogs from 1964 to 2003.

The researchers found that castrated male dogs were more likely than others to have HD or CCLD, and that spayed female dogs were significantly more likely to have CCLD.

Dogs up to four years were more likely to have HD, while those over four were more likely to have CCLD.

Incidences of both conditions had increased over the 39 years, and they were most often found in large or giant breeds of dog.

Study results have been published in the June 15th issue of the Journal of American Veterinary Medicine

 


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jholsinger1

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Reply with quote  #12 
Well, we finally took the "plunge" & had our little baby neutered at 17 months. For the record all the facts & stats everyone posts one way or another for health really evens out & does not answer the real question people like me have - What & when will make for happiest dog?
For us it was at point where he was obsessed sexually with our spayed female. He had been like that before but it would subside after 2-6 days, but this time it had already lasted 12 days & he was starting to be less sweet with her. We did go all out & go to the most expensive place in this area (because they had all the best equipment) & they are also known as very attentive to dogs. Very happy we went with them as they did the laser & he was acting like zero pain after. Took about 3 days before he was fully active on his own & both him & our female are soooo much happier without the sexual distraction.
It has been 2 months since operation now & he is still very agressive at protecting his territory (our house) & pack (our family). No real change other than no sex on his mind. Still has deep commanding bark, still playful, still good with people at park & guests. He does maybe have a bit better appetite & looks like he is slightly more filled out but hard to say if that is result or just right period for age.
Hope some of this might help anyone else considering. I will say we feel 100% right about having it done & 100% right about waiting as long as possible.

SueR

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Reply with quote  #13 

I've decided against neutering.  The pros and cons do seem to even out, but I still worry about the anesthesia risk.  When Donovan was about 14 months old I could not wait until he reached 18 months for his "brain surgery".   from my experience with him, 14-18 months seems to be the teen years for mastiffs. He was awful, totally fixated on my very calm, submissive hound mix female.  He followed her everywhere and was constantly trying to breed her, never mind that she is spayed and about 70 lbs to his 200+.  The other hound mix did not tolerate that behavior but this girl is too sweet to stick up for herself.  So, at last he was old enough to have the surgery, and don't know if he got wind of our plans but almost overnight all of his obnoxious behavior stopped.  In the past no amount of correcting him, separating them, nothing, broke his fixation on her.  That is still his favorite girl, but he is now very respectful of her.  The only thing I can think of is at that age they have out of control teenage boy hormones, and around 18 months to 2 years of age they must return to more normal levels? 


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Reply with quote  #14 
"So, at last he was old enough to have the surgery, and don't know if he got wind of our plans but almost overnight all of his obnoxious behavior stopped."  HA ! That's my bet !!

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Reply with quote  #15 
Ive read several arguments on both sides of this.  I was orginally planning on having my boy done at 18 months.  I had a discussion with my vet during our last check up, he told me he never recommends neutering Mastiffs, Danes, Sts, or Newfies.  He said the only time he would perform it on any of these breeds is when it is in the best interest of a particular dog or owner, in cases where aggression, marking, or other behavior issues come up that cannot be corrected another way.....and of course for people who cant keep their dogs from accidental breedings.

After talking with him Ive decided that my boy will stay intact.
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Reply with quote  #16 
I agree - a lot of these issues have a whole lot more to do with genetics and pedigree than the spay/neuter.

In the event you decide against spay/neuter, remember it is your responsibility to not let your pets breed irresponsibly and to always keep a careful watch on intact animals to prevent "accidents."

Personally, as the owner of a bitch who went developed an open Pyometra last weekend, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest spaying bitches once they are finished showing/breeding or once the pets have gained some maturity.  It is heart wrenching, scary as hell and just not worth it.

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Reply with quote  #17 

Important information


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We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
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Reply with quote  #19 
I will always spay my bitches, but not until their at least two or three years old, unless health reason prevent from waiting that long. And I will ONLY neuter my boys IF health reason call for it.

Females are at a great risk of pyo at anytime and that out weighs the cons of spaying in my opinion.

Males (if they belong to responsible owners mind you) should never be neutered in my opinion. The cons out weigh the pros, or visa versa depending on how you look at it,  of neutering boys by far. The only thing that you prevent when you neuter is testicular cancer.
The possibility of prostate cancer increases by 30% in neutered boys. The chances of Osteosarcoma is increased by 15% in neutered boys. The posibilty of Lymphosarcoma is increased by 15% in neutered boys.....the list goes on and on. This scares the crap out of me!!!

I was having this discusion with my Vet not long ago and he agrees that its best not to neuter unless you have to...however we both agreed that careless unresponsible pet owners should always neuter! Lord knows we dont need anymore puppies in the shelters or rescue!

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hankthetank

Registered: 04/20/10
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Reply with quote  #20 

hankthetank

Registered: 04/20/10
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Reply with quote  #21 
Someone please help me my boy just turned 5 months last week and is scheduled for the 13th to be fixed i've herd so many stories about stunting growth and growing problems the mastiff club of America said 12months min. but talk to my breeder i can't find any hard evidence either way and think i might cancel his appt. i don't plan on showing him confirmation

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Reply with quote  #22 
Just do your research and go with what your gut tells you, you DON'T have to take him to his appointment; your not obligated to keep it, just cancel it if you're not feeling right about having him altered and 5 months.

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Reply with quote  #23 
Thank you very much for your input we think we are going  to let him go for a while until he is a year old unless issues come up like marking indoors Hank is are first Mastiff so i want to do this right for him and us i would like to see him grow to his potential but his health is the most important if anybody has any other input i would love it thanks again
thoughtful

Registered: 06/28/10
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Reply with quote  #24 

 

I want to say a few words  about “spay/neuter health benefits” for dogs.  I do this to rebut a number of rumors, exaggerations and overt lies.   It is sad, I believe, that many people make important decisions based only on rumors and do not do good research before spaying or neutering their dogs.

I am originally from Europe  -Ukraine.  People spay and neuter dogs there in only  rare cases, and lots of dogs live long and happy lives. I was shocked ,when I found out, that the most  American dogs are going through these  kinds of procedures without real necessity most of the time.  I want to tell about my personal canine behavioral observations,  and  research  on the spay/neuter subject.

                   Behavior.

I do agree, that dogs of “fighter” breeds (Rottweilers, Pit bull terriers, Staffordshire terriers, etc.)  should be neutered, because it doesn’t matter how well trained they are, they can lose their minds sometimes.  It’s simply in their nature.  However, I don’t agree that the toy breed males should be neutered, unless they are not monitored. 

People tell stories about “nasty male habits of marking in the house”, which was another “discovery” for me.  What the heck are people talking about?  We’re talking about DOGS , but not CATS!  Here are a couple of observations, that prove the insanity of this point.  I’ve had two male poms.  Neither of them were used for breeding.  They NEVER marked in the house, because they were simply well-trained and were doing potty only outside, like any other well-behaved  dog.  It is a matter of good training!!!  Another thing is; when we recently bred our female pom to a nice small KENNEL male pom (which was not potty trained --and he was trying to mark things inside the house) Omg! Oh miracle!, I trained him to quit doing that “nasty male habit” in just 5 days!!!!!!!!  I’m talking about an intact male dog that was NEVER potty trained!

                    My research on health benefits of the spay/neuter subject.

First of all, spaying/neutering has both positive AND adverse health effects on the dogs.

I found one good scientific research report on this subject.  It appears, that spaying has more advantages , than disadvantages, because it  eliminates small risks of mammary tumors and pyometra.  Neutering, on the on other hand, has more disadvantages, than advantages like “quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer”.  All of those risks have a very small rate of health problems, and you can read about them in “summary” down below.

Another thing is, if spaying/neutering is done befor 1 year of age, it increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) in both sexes.  This is a common problem that can appear in medium and larger breeds.  Many “experienced” breeders suggest fixing the dog before 1 year of age, which is risky kind of thing… Breeders don’t know everything. Heck, nobody knows everything; but if you are ready to make an important and life changing decision for your dog –you had better do full research on this subject.

This is the summary of the research, that was done at Rutgers University (see link below) after numerous dogs had been tested, and large amount of data compiled --which makes it an excellent reference on this subject.

 

“SUMMARY

An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm

health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter

 

Page 2 of 12

correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do

not yet understand about this subject.

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially

immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated

with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

 

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer

• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders

• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

 

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a

common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.

• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6

• triples the risk of hypothyroidism

• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment

• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems

• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer

• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers

• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

 

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may

exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the

odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the

relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

 

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common

malignant tumors in female dogs

• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female

dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs

• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

• removes the very small risk (_0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

 

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a

common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis

• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by

a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds

• triples the risk of hypothyroidism

• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many

associated health problems

• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs

• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4

• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs

spayed before puberty

• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors

• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and

contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet

Page 3 of 12

owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits

associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear

to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically

mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.

The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed,

age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors

for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be

supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.”

The link to the full version: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

The same study has been used to oppose the Californian legislation on mandatory spay/neuter by AVMA ( American Veterinary Medical Association) http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/

 

 

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Reply with quote  #25 
Hi Alexsus, I am in Washington too( Blaine). Please e-mail me privately.
Olga

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Reply with quote  #26 
that Naiaonline study is what my vet went and found for me when I refused to entertain spaying my female or neutering my male; he promptly apologized and now respects my wishes

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Reply with quote  #27 

bump for fairwinds


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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy

bump for fairwinds

Thanks again.

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Reply with quote  #29 
bump
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We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
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Ch Windypines ir Reginald Montgomery ( in heaven)
National and Internation and sooo close Ch Ranchlands Duecs Wild ( In heaven)
Windy Pines Mid-night Maxi ( In Heaven)
Pallone Ranchlands Diamond Lil ( In Heaven)
Winsomes Ranchlands Maid Marion
Ch. Ranchlands Windimup and Watchimgo
Ranchlands Amazing Grace
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