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Chimay

Registered: 04/25/08
Posts: 28
Reply with quote  #1 

Hello all!  I am mostly a lurker but do post occasionally

 

I have a female brindle that is 6.5 months old.  I have heard (and read here) many different opinions regarding when to have a female mastiff spayed.  Although I think she is perfect, she is definitely not breeding material.  What is common practice in terms of when to spay?  The last thing I want to do it short change her by spaying her too early or too late. 

 

In a related note, when do mastiffs tend to come into their first heat?  I apologize if these are silly questions…but as my other dogs have been rescued they usually come already altered. 

 

Thank you in advance for all of your assistance. 

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Reply with quote  #2 

The first heat can come anywhere between 6 months and a year. average is 9 months. Mastiffs do better if you can wait until two to spay or neuter.


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284aimee

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Reply with quote  #3 
confused...... so here it says to wait until 2...... but in the thread " what to do" someone states that "the dog is 1 1/2 years old and the owners did not make a commitment to spay or neuture the dog so they must want to breed"
well then the person who stated that must think to neuture b4 that age..........

i have a 5 month old male...... will not breed......... and would like to have him neutured........ just confused as to when......... i would like to do what is best for him as well..........i didnt know 2 years was ideal....... i always thought the sooner the better....... but what do i know...... ive always had cats ...... and dogs from previous homes...... this is my first dog that i had since a pup...... well hes still a pup..............a big one 

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Reply with quote  #4 
oh and im sorry sandragon..... im not going against what you were saying just wondering why the assumsion of the other person saying they were going to breed since she was not fixed by a year and a half..........

and also..... my pup is 5 months tomorrow and still squats to pee..... which i think is fantastic so he wont pee on my plants....... but i heard it will stop when he a little older....... but i have another male shitzu who always squats to pee so maybe he is learning from my shitzu and may never lift his leg.............. what do you think????

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Reply with quote  #5 
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oh and im sorry sandragon..... im not going against what you were saying just wondering why the assumsion of the other person saying they were going to breed since she was not fixed by a year and a half....


Its is just that an assumption!
It is not set in stone as the age. Due to growth and maturing I have even changed my views on it. I would wait if possible until 2 but Would not do it before 12 months.. My contract gives up to Two years to spay neuter a pet.

You will notice on some threads you will get conflicting advice. In those its usually a person opinion many things with mastiff we learn over time or the hard way. They are just different than most breeds.

I would advise to read as much as possible and then make the best choice you can for your situation and life style. If you have several intact males you may want to do it earlier. Its a choice.

I have a friend who female has mammary cancer from not spaying her. It is a real risk. So you have to take advice as that.

Many articles believe you should wait on mastiffs until two for growth reasons.

I will try to find some links on it and post it here..  

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Chimay

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Reply with quote  #6 
284aimee - you sound just as confused as me! 

Sandragon - thank you for the advice.  I do not have any males in the house, just two altered females (Shep-x and a mini aussie).  When it comes to the "big dogs" I have more experience with males and have always gone with the rule of thumb to wait until at least two to fix - but girls are all new to me.

Either way I will most likely go through a heat or two.  Time for the REAL silly questions.  Where do you get mastiff size panties and dont they just rip them off? 
FaerieLantern

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Reply with quote  #7 
Custom fit dog panties.  My friend has a pair thats says "Daddy's Little Girl"

http://www.scootypants.com/

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Reply with quote  #8 
I had told myself....after her first heat I will spay. She is now 3.5 yrs old. BUT she has to be spayed, before my Trucker realizes whats growing between his legs. 

If I were you, let her go through a heat and then spay. Harley had her first heat at 13months.

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Reply with quote  #9 

Just remember some mastiffs do get temperamental when in heat. If you notice a major change in temperament get her hydroid checked. Thyroid pills are very cheap if thats all it is. Some mastiffs you would never know. some are a little sulky. Just like women they are all different. Some have no problems other crap just like humans. So just understand these things and you will be fine. Usually but again not always the bigger the female the later she will come into heat. A smaller bitch can go into heat a 6 months, a very large bitch's may not come into heat until 12 months on a few occasion its even been older than at I think I heard someone say hers didnt come into heat until 17 months old. Average heats last 3 weeks. So be prepared for that also.


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Sandragon

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Reply with quote  #10 
Dog Owner's Guide: Spay/Neuter Surgery

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Spay, Neuter | GREATDANELADY.COM

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Reply with quote  #11 

Most vets recommend six months . It does not effect size , and they do not have to have a heat. 


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Reply with quote  #12 

It does effect the growth plates and bone density. The growth plates need the hormones to close. The hormones also kick in and will give you an adult head verse having a puppy head. Small breeds its fine to do it at 6 months but giant breeds its better to wait if you can. If not again do whats best for your lifestyle and family.  


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JenniferW

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:

Most vets recommend six months . It does not effect size , and they do not have to have a heat. 


It most certainly affects the growth plates closing when you spay/neuter early.  I HIGHLY suggest you do some research of your own and come to your own conclusions about OUR breed.  I have had my vet (RIGHT IN FRONT of a puppy buyer) suggest to neuter at 6 months.  When I said yeah right keep trying.. he told the puppy buyer he was only "hoping".  The ONLY reason to do the surgery early on these big guys is for CONVEINANCE/Price.  There have also been many published reports about other health /growing issues when spay/neuter is done early.  I am not saying don't ever spay/neuter just don't do it till the growth plates have closed.
I don't have time to post all my links on this subject but here are a few
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm


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Reply with quote  #14 

I will have to agree that 6 month dose affect the head size etc.  I got George fixed at 6 month per the vet (this was before I joined the forum) he is super tall like 34+ inches at the shoulder but he is now 2yrs old and his head is so much smaller than Sammy's which is a retired stud dog from our breeder (his head is like sewer cap BIG!!!!!!) and Sammy will be 7yrs old this summer.  He is also not as wide as Sammy who has a nice broad chest. Out of the many things I have learned on this forum which has been alot, next time I WILL be waiting untill the 1 1/2 - 2yr mark before neutering.  HTH


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austinmastiff

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Reply with quote  #15 
Playing devils advocate here... there have been a lot of good responses to wait on spay/neuter for cosmetic reasons.  What about the medical end?  We all know the *benefits* of early spay/neuter significantly reducing testicular, prostate, and mammary cancers...

I know we all want our Mastiffs to look like Mastiffs... but on a "pet," where are the benefits the greatest?  Is it better to look like a Mastiff but die young of mammary cancer? 

Just curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the other end of the spectrum...

Mandie
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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
have a friend whos female has mammary cancer from not spaying her. It is a real risk. So you have to take advice as that.

Many articles believe you should wait on mastiffs until two for growth reasons.

I will try to find some links on it and post it here..  

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I did actually post that..

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tlebel

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Reply with quote  #17 
I won't be breeding my two so we had them fixed last week (at 17 weeks).

For us yes it was a convenience thing and a price thing but most importantly a health thing. We do not mind them being smaller, my thoughts have always been... the bigger the better and these babies by far will be the largest dogs my husband and I have ever owned.

I am happy to report both surgeries went well... Monty is healed up already and Ava acts like nothing even happened lol.

Maybe one day I'll get into breeding but for now this is what fits our lifestyle.


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Reply with quote  #18 
Lorie, I did see your post regarding the issue... I only asked because I was hoping more people would chime in on their thoughts on the subject.  There seemed to be a lot more posts regaring the cosmetic issue vs. health.

Mandie
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Reply with quote  #19 
Hello All,

I am having the same quandary as others here.  I want Sammy to be healthy and happy.  I am not interested in breeding or showing.  He is currently 11 weeks old and is doing great.  I am concerned about bone health and proper growth.  He has his next vet visit on July 19th so I'll talk to the vet then.  I have already paid for a "package" that includes all of his first years vaccinations, microchip, and neuter.  But the vet charges extra if the dog is over 6 months old so I may have some negotiating to do.  The costs are not that much of a concern but are a part of my decision making process if there are significant differences.  Since I haven't said 'hello' to everyone on this board yet, here are some pictures of my Samwise.  Thanks for providing your wealth of experience with us newbies.

Woof!

-PB

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Click image for larger version - Name: bernise-and-mastiff.jpg, Views: 61, Size: 612.74 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: samwise.jpg, Views: 27, Size: 189.55 KB 

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Lorie, I did see your post regarding the issue... I only asked because I was hoping more people would chime in on their thoughts on the subject.  There seemed to be a lot more posts regaring the cosmetic issue vs. health.

Mandie


waiting until two only increases the chance by 5 to 8 % But spaying early you have a high rate of bone cancer. so it not only cosmetic.

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Reply with quote  #21 
There is pro's and cons to both.

But most important is the dog. Do it for their health and well being, not your convience. Alot of breeders require you wait until a certain age, some offer $ back incentives. I think the responsible thing to do is spay and neuter pets to eliminate an accident.

Best thing to do is look at the research and then make an educated decision. You will find just as many people for early spay as waiting till 2 or whatever later age.

You have plenty of good advice and info here, Im sure you will make the best decision for your baby


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Reply with quote  #22 

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Unread post Today at 09:53 AM #6

Excellent article on the benefits and the draw backs.  Each breed is different......the spay after the second heat on a Mastiff does not seem to affect their look............but the neutering of the dog.........does affect the bone and development .  IMPO there is too much damage done to a Male to neuter early.......I want people to neuter for many reasons but what you purchase a dog or bitch for is the Breed look and type..........the Mastiff does not fair well when done to early.  Most vets will recommend it, but they just do not know the giant breeds well enough.  Dr. Hutchinson in Ohio, and Doc Robin are experts in Mastiffs and they will tell you the bone is affected and it is in the strength of it, not just the look.

PDF]

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter ...

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed,. age, and gender are variables that must be ...
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf - Similar pages





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Reply with quote  #23 
  As a breeder--I'm with Lorie.  My contract says after 16 months for a male and after at least one heat cyccle for  a female and before the age of two.  I strongly suggest and recommend that my puppy buyers wait to spay/neuter.  My vet who owns one of my puppy boys asked my advice and waited to neuter his own dog at 17 months of age.  Solomon is a beautiful dog and healthly as a hog.

  Neutering males early DOES effect overall bone size--tall lanky dogs with no bone or head size--they end up looking like badly bred Great Danes--not Mastiffs.  These dogs need the hormones for proper growth.  Why pay $1500-2000 for a dog that ends up looking like a rescue?  If a buyer buys a well bred MASTIFF--THEY EXPECT IT TO LOOK LIKE A MASTIFF.

  I had a puppy buyer who neutered his male at 10 weeks--which was against my advice and my placement contract.  At 2 years of age this dog looked like a 7 month old female puppy and weighed less than 110#--all his littermate brother weighed 190-220# apiece.   The owner was upset that his dog was so "small"--  and complained.   I pointed out to him that he saved some money  when he neutered his dog as a young  puppy and it costs him in the overall size of his dog.  He ruined his dog--and then decieded he didn't want it.  I ended up taking the dog back and placing it.

  If you spay a female early--they can have urinary problems later--incontience and leaking.  They need the hormones of the heat cycle to help their organs mature and develop.  Anyone who owns a female can tell you how much their girls "blooms" after her first heat cycle.  A minor inconvience that makes a world of difference in your girl's overall health.

  If you spay or neuter after a year and before two years of age--you still get the same health benefits for your dog.  I often spay my brood bitches at age 4--and most of my girls live to be 10-14 years of age.  I currently have a 11 and 12 year old  females here--both retired  brood bitches.  Neither have any health problems except a llittle age related arthritsis.

  Early spaying/neutering  IS NOT recommended for giant breed dogs.  If your vet insists it's oK--find another vet.

  

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Reply with quote  #24 
A lot of times a vet will tell you 6 months, not necessarily because they don't know about large breeds but because often times people are not responsible pet owners.  My vet suggested the same thing to me...when I asked about growth rates, bones structure, etc...he commented about seeing that I had done some research and agreed that it can cause issues with the tendency being taller, skinnier dogs.  By the end of the conversation, he agreed that I should wait to get Remy neutered if that was what I decided to do.  You have to remember that 95% of the people vets talk to are pet people, not experts/(real)breeders/trainers/handlers and with the shelters full of accidentally bred puppies, I don't blame vets for recommending it to everyone until they understand the type of owner you are.

I think it's all about open dialog with your vet.  Show that you are a responsible owner willing to do the "extra" work in caring for your dog and want what is best for him/her and I think you will have a great relationship and find what best fits your situation.

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Reply with quote  #25 
If people spend time researching, talking to breeders and other mastiff folk, and making their own decisions... I would have to say that 99.9% would wait until the appropriate age for their pet.  That could be anywhere from 10 months to two+ years.  I reccomend waiting till at the very least the growth plates are closed.   

#1, like others have mentioned.. ok you want just a pet, you say you don't care about looks.  Then WHY did you buy a mastiff? 

#2, it does/can affect health:
Yes, neutering prior to the beginning of estrus does reduce risk for mammary cancer in females, but it also significantly increases risk for urinary incontinence in bitches which predisposes these bitches to diethylstilbestrol (DES) dependency (Stocklin-Gautschi et al., J. Reprod. Fertile. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001 and many other references  in some instances, DES is not effective at controlling incontinence and will force some owners to elect euthanasia. Though with lesser risk compared to females, early neutering also increases risk of urethral sphincter incontinence in males (A. Aaron et al., Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996.)
With regard to cancer, spayed females have a 4 times greater risk for developing cardiac hemangiosarcomas (vascular tumors) compared to intact females (neutered males also show a significant increase in risk for these tumors compared to intact males) (Ware and Hysper, J. Vet. Intern. Med. 13:95-103, 1999.). Additionally, both neutered males and females have a 2-fold greater risk for developing bone tumors (osteosarcoma) compared to intact males and females (Ru et al., Vet J. 156:31-9, 1998.).
A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed). The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to. For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. This is confirmed by a recent study showing that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture (Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5).
In addition, a study in 2004 in JAVMA (Spain et al. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387) showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than dogs spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age. If I were a breeder, I would be very concerned about this, because it would mean that I might be making incorrect breeding decisions if I were considering the hip status of pups I sold that were spayed or neutered early. Interestingly, this same author also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.

 

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Reply with quote  #26 

Bump?


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Reply with quote  #27 
Hello and thank you so much for all of the valuable information.  My first experience with the Mastiff breed was my beloved Bear - a Mastiff/Lab mix.  She was a beautiful dog, and reached 130# at maturity.  On the advice of our vet (who was recommended by a close friend who also had several large dogs), we spayed her before her first heat.  As a result, we just lost our otherwise healthy dog at age 5 to bone cancer.  By then we had changed vets, and it was the first time we had heard that there could be negative consequences to early spay. 

We will definitely wait to spay our next puppy.  I was a little bit concerned about the increased chances for other types of cancer from waiting, but our thought was that something like mammary cancer at least could be treated.  The bone cancer was causing so much pain that chemo was not even an option - it was truly heartbreaking, and I think it could have been avoided.  In my opinion, the "convenience" of avoiding going through a heat with your dog is NOT worth the potential heartbreak.  Again, thank you all so much for passing this valuable information along.

Beth and Mike

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Reply with quote  #28 
Most vets recommend six months . It does not effect size , and they do not have to have a heat. 


HI Most Vets dont know anything on Mastiffs :>)

I would say its because of thier growth rate ,If spayed too early ,they will not fill out .
Just grrow tall ,I also  think if you have a Bitch that has has on going UTI ,She does need Her first heat  or 2nd to out grow this .

Plus i think the new thinking on spaying Males is ,they live longer if they are not fixed . Meaning that ,they are seeing Dogs that are fixed ,do get Cancer earlier than those not fixed at all .


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Reply with quote  #29 
Oh, now I am so unsure of what to do!  I have 2 pups - one male, one female...both 6+ months old.......I have decided to try to keep from neutering my boy until 18 months or so...because I understood that the testosterone was critical for his bone development.
 
But, my girl - well I was thinking that I should get her spayed soon because of our situation.  But I sure don't want to cause her harm!  I read somewhere that my boy won't really notice her being in heat if they're only 8 or 9 months old when she goes into heat?  Just wishful (naive) thinking?
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Reply with quote  #30 

JMO but in my experience, I've seen male pups as young as 3-4 months BE VERY interested in girls in heat.  In fact, we have one younger male who was neutered after 2 who still acts interested and another who was neutered at 10 months (not labs so don't jump up & down yet pls) who doesn't know he WAS neutered by the enthusiasm he shows whenever there is a girl in heat within a country mile of us!  There is a lot of information about spay/neuter/early/late, but it's up to you to review it, digest it and make an informed decision for your own circumstances and hopefully with your breeder's guidance too.


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Reply with quote  #31 
I would reccommend one or the other visiting a friend for a couple of weeks when she's in heat- If you have a friend that can help or talk to your breeder maybe they can help. I also think that an occassional overnite at a friends helps them to adjust to many different things that come up in a lifetime.
It makes what could be scary "just another weekend away"!
Good Luck in making your decision.

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Reply with quote  #32 

bump for fairwinds


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Reply with quote  #33 
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bump for fairwinds


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bump


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Ch Sherwood Ranchlands Friar Tuck
Ch Windypines ir Reginald Montgomery ( in heaven)
National and Internation and sooo close Ch Ranchlands Duecs Wild ( In heaven)
Windy Pines Mid-night Maxi ( In Heaven)
Pallone Ranchlands Diamond Lil ( In Heaven)
Winsomes Ranchlands Maid Marion
Ch. Ranchlands Windimup and Watchimgo
Ranchlands Amazing Grace
Ranchlands Kissed By An Angel
Ranchlands And The Beat Goes on'
Ranchlands Truly Scrumptious
Ranchlands Rumor Has It
Sylvans My Cherie D"Amour at Ranchlands.
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