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000000

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Reply with quote  #1 

It might be of interest to expose some of the past Great American bred ones . Not having the intention of being complete , so only to present in time to come a restricted scala of Hall of Famers .

 

 

Here above ch Acadian Konigstiger , b Jan ’75 and bred by EF Howard out of Renrock’ Acadian Griselda sired by Acadian Bull Durham ; being linebred to paternal G2 Reveille Juggernaut & sis R- Tribute being maternal G3 , ie ch Blackrock Rhinehart ex Mooreleigh Joyce , the latter tracing back to early Meps imports ; Konigstiger being also great-grandson to Kisumu Goliath along paternal side & f4 along maternal side ; K- Goliath being owned by Garstars breeder Peter Garr (see Meps thread) .

 

Here above ch Tullamore Bandit O’Lazy Hill , b Oct ’80 and bred by Mrs V Bregman out of ch Lazy Hill Athena sired by ch Colchis Berea Toto ; being a brother/sis mateing , both from Britain’ Samantha sired by ch Meps Tristan’ splendid son Greenbrier Shambeau . By the way , is there someone in the house who knows Britain' Samantha' pedigree ? A free guess the English import Dawnwind Romulus being in it ...

Disclaimer - choices (mostly) purely made upon one pic , which could be a tad deceptive .

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #2 
Acadian Griselda out of Reveille Big Thunder 3x MCOA sp. winner and bred by Bill Newman
 
Grand dam (sire's side) to great grand dam (dam's side) in that sibling linebreeding, so the 4 generation inbreeding coefficient is zero. Jumps to 3.1250 in 5th generation.

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #3 
Here below another Bandit' pic .


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

Bandit was a very nice boy with a sweet disposition, but would have liked to have seen him a bit tighter.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #5 
A bit tighter ?
oldschool

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Reply with quote  #6 
My parents loved Bandit and tried to breed Ursa to him, I think at least twice, without success. They ended up finally getting her pregnant with Ben, who was also very nice and had a great temperament. It's a long way from VA to NY so I'm glad they were persistent enough to keep trying until they got the breeding they wanted (bringing in the Lazy Hill lines with Stinger and Shambeau. Our line would not be the same today if they hadn't.

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Reply with quote  #7 

By tighter Marcel, I mean a bit more well defined. As I remember him, he had substance, but I would have personally wanted to see more muscle definition. As I said earlier he was a very nice boy, with a disposition many admired.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
000000

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Reply with quote  #8 

I understand one’s mentioning Autumn River’ Big Ben , b Dec ’82 & bred by Mrs V Bregman out of ch Lazy Hill Athena ( Shambeau x Britain’ Samantha Alexandra) sired by Lazy Hill Luath (ch Dawnwind Romulus x Lazy Hill Athena) , so am I (as merely an outsider re Am blood lines) also right to consider ‘Stinger’ being his pet name ? Or is it Romulus' one ?

 

 

Here above a pic of Bandit’ dam Lazy Hill Athena , and yes which I was considering being right , ie here sire being the Engl import ch Dawnwind Romulus (ch Pynesfarm Gelert x Copenore Ensign) while her dam being Lazy Hill Alexandra .

 

This means Bandit & Big Ben  being half brothers (both out of Lazy Hill Athena) , the latter being linebred to ch Dawn Romulus (paternal G2 & maternal G3) ; this also means there’s here also a definite underlying ‘Meps’ family connection vis-à-vis the fact Bandit’ double grandsire Meps Tristan being cousin to Dawn Romulus (the former’ dam being sis to the latter’ sire) . See Romulus’ pic here below , such a pity it being so badly framed , feet cut away …

 

Ps – A pic being only a pic , one knows , but certainly one must have more Bandit’ in the flesh expertise over the pond there , so maybe it’s a correct assessment re some lack in muscle tone ; looking at Bandit’ full study I should prefer a tad more fullness (axial width seen from lateral point of view) in rear , especially off second thigh , to compare with the human calf . If I look for general muscle development my eye 'starts' always off the 2nd thigh , so it needs to show up ‘power’ for drive , eventually for jumping capacity . I think not only presently but also in those days there was some lack vis-a-vis general interest vs exercise , muscle needs to be trained in order to come in prima donna shape , no pain no gain ! Show condition being more than some odd extra pounds , no , those extra ones need to be of stainless steel quality , muscle & correct tone .

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collie

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Reply with quote  #9 
Virginia was not young and not slim and not in any position to exercise her dogs, so yes, they could have done with a little "road work, but in that era, early 80's, they were the biggest-boned and most substantial Mastiffs in America.
I was lucky enough to see these dogs, which were much bigger than Acadian Konigstiger, who was a very nice example of the Reveille/Mooreleigh type of refined, medium-sized Mastiffs.
Lazy Hill Luoth and Britain's Samantha Alexandra were both Ch Dawnwind Romulus (Stinger) x Lazy Hill Alexandra.
(Possibly Lazy Hill Alexandra is the one who is Reveille Big Thunder x Acadian Griselda.)
Ch Lazy Hill Athena and Ch Toto of Colchis Berea were both Ch Greenbrier's Shambeau x Britain's Samantha Alexandra.
Ch Tullamore Bandit O'Lazy Hill was Ch Toto of Colchis Berea x Ch Lazy Hill Athena.
Autumn River's Big Ben was Lazy Hill Luoth x Ch Lazy Hill Athena.  He may have been a tad straight front and rear, but was longer and had a better topline than Bandit. Again he was impressive. I recall he sadly died young, and I don't know of any litters other than the one Jess's parents got with their stonking big bitch Ch. Old School's Ursa Major.


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Reply with quote  #10 

Shambeau was nice but small and as far as.... "they were the biggest-boned and most substantial Mastiffs in America",.... that is certainly debatable!

Tobin's Deer Run Mastiffs were certainly up there in the running with Wycliff and dozens of other DR spin-off kennels producing many big boned Mastiffs of substance. Not to mention Massalane and Gulf Mills.

As I recall, a great many 70's small breeder's such as V.B., Jackie Guy, Dee Dee, Ed Gerace, Lois Savage, Lou Ann Furch, Bob Burke, Ficarottas, Gensberger, Goldblatt, C. Strong & yours truly, just to name a few, stayed clear of DR breedings, while others embraced DR and produced a number of truly substantial Mastiffs.

The need for sound Mastiffs was apparently obvious, as many were just horribly unsound no matter what their size, or kennel affiliation!

This need gave rise to Ramsgate Job, Peersleigh Lord Sampson, Shambeau, among others, they were sound compared against some of their fellow Mastiffs, but at a price, namely, overall size.

In a number of instances, a good sized Bullmastiff would not have looked up into the eyes of some of these Mastiffs.

Now some felt that this was what the Mastiff should become, sound and relatively small, against those Mastiffs that held the interest of all that observed them, due to their larger frames and overall impact at first impression.

Today we hear the same debate, with health justifying smaller size and standards accommodating to the fancy du jour.

I for one, am not a member of that club and will never sign on.

There is no doubt in my mind, that if we lowered the basket on basketball courts, there would be lots of shorter basketball players competing successfully in the game. If we limited the weight of sumo wrestlers to 200 lbs, there would be longer lived sumo wrestlers. If we reduced the biceps of professional arm wrestlers, there would be less breakage of humerus bones.
If football players had a limit on size, there would be less knee injuries. If skiers were prevented from using triple black diamond slopes, there would be less broken limbs, etc., etc., etc.

We can try to justify almost anything in life, because of consequences of extremes, and if we lead with that premise, then the world we live in might be a bit safer, but boring as Hell!

Small Mastiffs might be longer lived as a statistic, so what?
All dogs have a relatively short life span. If I were a dog (some say I'm already there), I'd rather live 9 years as a grand Mastiff than 14 years as a Chihuahua!

This does not mean that I wouldn't advocate longer lives for larger Mastiffs. If there is a genetic component to longevity, then by all means let's explore that avenue, but to use longevity to justify limitations on breeding time honored forms, is once again not addressing the core issue.

My uncle died recently at age 92. He was the oldest surviving brother out of 4. His other brothers were of medium height and he was a relatively big man. We always believed that he would be the first to go because he ate everything under the sun and didn't watch his weight. For the majority of his life he was a laborer and was exposed to the elements every day for many years. So we now believe that his physicality probably extended his life. Had he watched his diet and weight, perhaps he might have lived a bit longer yet, but no doubt he wouldn't have enjoyed it as much.

Rhinehart lived 7 years and he was not an extreme Mastiff, so size is not the only factor in longevity for this breed.

*Drifted off a bit from the original subject matter, but flow of consciousness begs forgiveness!

BTW, Virginia was one of the nicer people in Mastiffs... FWIW!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
000000

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Reply with quote  #11 
One can comprehend here the struggling against moderation within a breed known for large size while repeating a Mastiff in moderation remains still a huge impressive dog compared with other breeds , that's for sure . So it doesn't help our breed to polarize in vain opinions , iow to try make suspicious of striving for the 'evil' of miniaturizing , those who go for moderation , as that doesn't make any sense at all , and one definitely knows it , so ...
 

Reading the Grandeur’ article by Mr Edgar Gerace of Greenbranch repute , it becomes obvious he was a dedicated Mastiff fancier , one feels the warmth between the lines . The Great one of his many Mastiffs being Artifax Astronaut , no outstanding winner but a beloved gentleman ; George Campbel Scott , the fim actor known for his roles in Patton & in Dr Strangelove , owned one of Astronaut’ descendants . He writes that ‘ he picked ‘Boswell’ from a litter , bred by a Mr R Smith , and born in the back room of a pub in Wareham , a village in Dorset County , some hundred east of the Devon' village Eggesford where the Farnabys of Mrs Baxter are located . Boswell became a most enjoyable lad , docile , generous , and ready to please his master , as a/o shepherding the pups in the field (see pic here below) .

 

 

So a type of everybody’ friend which isn’t that common in Mastiffs , as guards being mostly aloof vs those not belonging to the ‘clan’ of his Master ; maybe those , who do possess the highest levels of selfconfidence & -consciousness , are such ‘everybody’ friends . Boswell got cancer problems reaching the age of ten , but he didn’t collapsed and lived up to his twelfth birthday , quite an achievement within this breed , and he wasn’t an exception within his family , so related to the Farnabys & Lesdons of Mrs Betty Baxter . Quality in life being not only the years of living but also the levels of ‘happy sound life of togetherness’ up to great age . This could mean ‘not much’ for fanciers who go mainly for type & size but nevertheless it’s a vital part of being a Great Mastiff !

 

Here below a pic of Boswell’ Greenbranch family taken in front of a huge antique fireplace , probably somewhere in Exeter , Devon , depicting - l to r – Boswell’ grandson Bomber , Boswell’ son Marco Polo (Bomber’ sire) , Boswell himself & Bomber’ dam Melanie Taff .

 


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collie

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Reply with quote  #12 
I will acknowledge an exception to the Bregman dogs being the biggest boned and most substantial of the early 80's (that is, prior to the Grenier Hall heyday). That is Deer Run Florister Rufus, the sire of Old School's Ursa Major, who was extraordinary in that regard.

I met Boswell only in his extreme old age, and he was all that Marcel says. I believe that photo is in Ed Gerace's home in Pennsylania, before he went to live in the UK.

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Reply with quote  #13 

FYI, the pup closest to the dam in that photo was my Taurus!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
000000

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Reply with quote  #14 
Nice to know that ; by the way , was this bunch of puppies coming down from one litter (Boswell x G Dame Sybil) ?

Ps - Is there any pic of DR Florister Rufus ?
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #15 
Pretty sure this was one litter, as Ed wasn't very prolific ( I believe he only had 70+ pups altogether from his breedings at Greenbranch). I believe he was affiliated with Tobin at an earlier point in time.
I must have a pic of Rufus somewhere, but not at hand, sorry

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #16 
.


The here above pic , showing Mrs Phil Greenwell as receiver , indicates Ed Gerace’ presence at the OEMC Centenary show ’83 . When I personally attended the next OEMC cc show at Lyme Hall ’84 , amongst American visitors there were Mrs Pamela Gould , Miss Damara Bolte , Mrs MA Moore , the latter being looking quite vivid but fragile due to her ill-health . Maybe this trio was also there at the Centenary one . Ed Gerace , being a OEMC member since 1973 , resided in ’84 at Ravenwood , 111 Stoney Hill Road New Hope PA, in 1988 his address was given as  - Canontiegn Manor , Christow Exeter (England) while the OEMC list for 1990 presents a ‘G’ Gerace , member since ’73 , residing at Old Brook Farm Buckfastleigh , Dartmoor Devon . Further on I don’t have specific other documents re Ed Gerace , except for the color pic published summer ’98 , and in that way one might think he passed away between ’90 & ’98 .

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collie

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Reply with quote  #17 
I don't have the date for Ed's passing, but I recall he spent the end of his life in a monastery in the UK.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #18 
I thought in France, but I could be mistaken.

I believe that progeny award was actually done by Ed, as I was there when he was molding the clay and only had one Mastiff fully formed.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

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Reply with quote  #19 
I have seen Ed's home in New Hope, the man had exquisite taste in architecture.

He was a well-rounded businessman and his loss is most disheartening. The man is intriguing in death and I can only imagine how much more so in life. Betty Baxter spent many nights at Ravenwood as Ed was quite the host. His hotel/bar named Raven has changed hands several times recently.

Mark

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Reply with quote  #20 

His antique business still has the Greenbranch sign above it in Lambertsville. It's located right at the water's edge before the bridge to New Hope.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

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Reply with quote  #21 
The current owner of that business claims to have no knowledge of Ed.

Mark

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Reply with quote  #22 
Well, I was in the store about a year ago and the fellow working it knew Ed. So I'm surprised that the present owner, unless it changed hands in the past year, has no recollection of his name.
But such is life!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

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Reply with quote  #23 
I suspected that the individual I spoke to by phone knew more than he was willing to acknowledge. But maybe I am being overly suspicious and there were many others in that community willing to share stories and bits of information but I learned quickly that using the phone is far less effective than an in-person meeting. I plan on spending more time on this in the future.

Mark

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Reply with quote  #24 

To what end?


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #25 
.
 
This pic , taken July 10th 1983 , presents some nostalgic memory – fr l to r – a bearded club member , running a stall (raffle ?) , who I’ve seen later on at meetings but whose name I’ve forgotten (Mr Faulkner ?) , OEMC President Mrs Day of Hollesley fame , unfortunately with serious leg injury , two young H- females at both sides of MM’ dam ch H- Devil Dancer (the latter died the day after the show , followed shortly after by her daughter ch H- Rowella’ death) , than Mrs Baxter & Mrs Say in standing conversation , next Mrs Lloyd Jones , at her feet MM himself who she co-owned with Mrs Greenwell and finally the lady with the dark sunglasses at the extreme right , Mrs How of Overnoons repute & widely known silver antiques’ (esp spoons) expert who owned that splendid huge brindle , Mr Micawber . Do notice the simple rope leads of Hollesley !

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #26 
Please note the rise of muzzle up to forehead on MM in this photo. He appears to be all muzzle!
Photos can be deceiving, or they can be realistic!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #27 
Two other pics dd July 10th 1983 Pyleigh Manor – Centenary show ; above at left the cc winner ch Bellabees Blunder & at right reserve cc his sire MM ; below the then OEMC officers please correct if I should be wrong – fr l to right – 1st row Miss Barbara Blackstone - Newsletter editor & once Miss Bell’ right hand - , Mrs Maisie Lindley of Copenore , Mrs Liz Degerdon of Grangemoor , Mrs GEP How of Overnoons , Mrs Pam Day of Hollesley & Mrs Barbara Cooper - Club Secretary & of Oxhaege fame , 2nd row (standing) - ? , Mr Jack Cooper of Oxhaege , Mrs Phillis Teversham - Club Treasurer & of Twinoaks , Mrs P Greenwell , ? , Mrs GMK Ede of Bellabees – the latter ? Mrs Day’ sis or cousin? , and finally Mr Richard Thomas of Bredwardine . Think it were the post-war II heyday for the breed in the UK , except for one .
 

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Reply with quote  #28 
I think the injury on Mrs. Day's leg was the result of her being kicked by one of their pedigree Jersey cows. The Days had the Royal Warrant as suppliers of dairy products to the Queen. They used those ropes on their little Jerseys. In fact going to Pyleigh Manor was like a trip to The Shire, with Hobbit size people and cattle. Their daughter Tigger is handling MM in the other picture. The second man at ringside I think is the late Keith Taylor of Tresylyan.

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Reply with quote  #29 
Thank you all for the trip down memory lane.  I came into the breed a little after these dogs had reached their prime.  It has been a while since I sat down to submerge myself in the grand Mastiffs of yesteryear.  How nice to refresh my memory of some of the dogs that stand behind what I have today.

I met Ginny (Lazy Hill) at my very first Mastiff national in Carlisle Pa in 1998.  She was so nice. 


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Reply with quote  #30 

.

Here above two pics of another past Great American bred Mastiff being ch Old Schools Ursa Major - DR Florister Rufus x ch Makar Hannibal’ daughter Old Schools Trouble - , a splendid large brindle with a genuinely strong head piece ; her maternal grandsire Hannibal (see below right at old age) reminding at his uncle that grand English ch Buckhall Mr Micawber (see below at left) , and if Hannibal , being brother to ch Nanjemoy’ Ka-Reem , ‘should’ (correct if I’m wrong) also be brother to Ursa Major’ paternal grandam ch Nanjemoy’ Etasja , than Ursa Major goes back along both parental sides to ch Kisumu Tiberias (f3/f4) , older brother to that Mr Micawber .

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Reply with quote  #31 
Finally found a pic of Old Schools Ursa Major' sire Deer Run Florister Rufus , a quality Mastiff oozing great strength & functionality annex a quite appealing face . I presume this pic being taken at rather a young age , isn't it ?


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Reply with quote  #32 
Ursa should be the poster child of a doggy looking bitch and wonderful representative of a good head and good body when fused into one!

The argument's made for smaller bitches always seem to fade, when an Ursa comes along and overshadows the debate by just her mere presence.

Just as in all things, size also begets size!

Rufus of Heatherbrooke was also a large Mastiff as was Tiberius. So these important factors in a pedigree will exhibit themselves when selective breedings click into place.

Always a pleasure to be reminded of such past Mastiffs, as time and distance can obscure their legacy and actuality in the here & now.

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"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
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Reply with quote  #33 
.
 
Other past first-class American bred ones were , imo , ch Iron Hills Warwagon (above at left) , his grandson ch Iron Hills Into the Night (above at right) & Warwagon’ son ch Southport Prime , the latter depicted in a Hollywood scenery , just wonderful & creative !  I - Warwaggon , going back to the DR line Wycliff , Ivan , Ezekiel and having also that grand Engl import ch Dawnwind Romulus (see in former posts of this thread) as maternal G4 ancestor ; I- Into the Night being out of a German bred brood , Stonehage Kara , going back to G3 ch Forefoot Prince Darkness and further to the Dutch kennels of Sanguis Nobilis & Desäal , both renowned for definite levels of soundness ; S - Prime Time being Warwagon’ son out of ch Southport Bailey Quarters , the latter great-grandaughter to respectively ch DR Wycliff , ch Reveille Big Thunder & the English bred Beaumaring Caesar (Garstars Eric x Beaumaring Bonnie , granddaughter to ch Dawnwind Romulus’ sire ch Pynesfarm Gelert , the latter also uncle to  ch Meps Tristan ,  renowned for having sired ch Greenbrier Shambeau .

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Reply with quote  #34 

Great thread Marcel!


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Reply with quote  #35 

Marcel wrote:
Here above two pics of another past Great American bred Mastiff being ch Old Schools Ursa Major - DR Florister Bruce x ch Makar Hannibal’ daughter Old Schools Trouble - , a splendid large brindle with a genuinely strong head piece ; her maternal grandsire Hannibal (see below right at old age) reminding at his uncle that grand English ch Buckhall Mr Micawber (see below at left) , and if Hannibal , being brother to ch Nanjemoy’ Ka-Reem , ‘should’ (correct if I’m wrong) also be brother to Ursa Major’ paternal grandam ch Nanjemoy’ Etasja , than Ursa Major goes back along both parental sides to ch Kisumu Tiberias (f3/f4) , older brother to that Mr Micawber .
 
I just wanted to correct that Ursa's sire was Deer Run Florister Rufus (not Bruce). Yes, Ka-Reem was Hannibal's litter brother and Etasha their sister (also Badness was another sister). Hannibal's litter turned out pretty nice, which is why my mother chose to line breed on that with Trouble to Rufus. More pic and a pedigree of Ursa here. And video of her here at 5 years and here at 11 years of age. I have a cool video of Ursa and Ben courting that I plan to put up some day, but I haven't gotten around to it yet...
 
There were only 2 pups in Ursa's litter, Ursa and an apricot bitch that went to a great companion home. She was a nice bitch too but the people were not interested in showing or breeding. Ursa's mother died young in a freak accident (when we were away from home during a thunderstorm she got spooked and was fatally injured trying to get into the house) so Ursa is the only offspring she produced that has continued on in the gene pool.
 
Here's another pic of Rufus. I have a few more Mom took when she went to breed that I plan on scanning some day when I re-do out web site.
 

Great posts, Marcel! I can't wait to see who you profile next! 


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Reply with quote  #36 
Thanks for the rectification re the faulty named sire to Ursa Major , I shall not seek any faint excuse except for being not enough concentrated re that DR Florister Bruce/Rufus matter , so my apologies being not that up into American pedigrees , I have to do my home work better than this , in the mean time I’ve corrected the post involved .

Really nice to see another Rufus’ pic . I wonder if he has sired other litters and if so , which & where were the outcomes , as I presume there was definitely great (pre)potential re that Rufus . Those videos are true treasures to behold for oneself & the Mastiff community , and what a majestic movement demonstrated by such a large keen five-years old brindle , the jacket I do like sooo much .


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Reply with quote  #37 
For some info re Nanjemoy Etasha vs brother ch Makar Hannibal .


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Reply with quote  #38 

Deer Run Florister Rufus was very ponderous in his movement, and really struggled to gain what I believe was a total of one point. I would guess he was about 32"-33", and one of Tobin's kennel guys told me he thought he was about 265 lbs, but that may have been a guess. His bone was immense; the biggest I've seen on any dog. I followed him up a ramp in Madison Square Garden, and I was stunned by the width and massiveness of his rear. I certainly never saw any other pups from him, but I would have had him in a heartbeat.


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Reply with quote  #39 
I thought I would add some photos to this thread. I scanned these for Mom's interview in Modern Molosser and I might as well share them here as well (though everyone should subscribe to that magazine, it is awesome).

These are some of Mom's favorite Mastiffs. I've uploaded the Ivan pics elsewhere, so I'll not include them here as well.

Deer Run Florister Rufus (Ch. Deer Run Noah of Massalane x Ch. Nanjemoy's Etasha)

In the ring at Bucks, 1979






Rufus with my mother, Donna Bahlman, in 1981, when she went to breed Old School's Trouble to him for the breeding that produced BISS Ch. Old School's Ursa Major



This is Banyon's Mayflower Madame, shown here by Damara Bolte taking BOS at Bucks while still a puppy, she was something else once she matured. She was a beautiful, typey bitch.





Here is Ch. Iron Hills Rocky Hill Thor (Ch. Deer Run Zachary x Ch. Iron Hills Elbereth)  in the ring at a local show




In this one Thor is at the far left, in the center is a very young Ch. Old School's Panama Red, and at the far right is Mistral (CH. Falmore Hall Mistral of Deer Run)




And back to Bucks, we are in the ring with Stoner (Ch. Windamohr's Rock of Lionsire -- a littermate to Ivan and Sheena):



And another picture of Stoner at a local show with a young Mastiff enthusiast (me!)



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Reply with quote  #40 

what awesome picts!!


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Reply with quote  #41 

Indeed all pics of historical interest ; nice to see Mr Louis Mc Donald of ‘Longendale’ repute as Bucks judge ’89 as (in the pic of three in a row) also the Irish bred Falmorehall Mistral . I know this being a thread about great past American breds , but just for the info , Mistral’ brother Scirocco (pics here below) became BOB at the heavy rainy Lyme Hall OEMC show ’84 where their sire MM got the reserve ticket ; MM’ owner , Mrs Greenwell , standing ringside and ‘smiling’ for Scirocco’ win , the gentleman next to her is Mr Mark Day , husband of MM’ breeder Mrs Phil Day ; the third pic shows a Scirocco yearling daughter at a German club show with her ‘ditto’ smiling breeder , Mrs Sarah Windham of Falmorehall .

 

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Reply with quote  #42 
Accolades aside, Scirroco does appear to be wanting in a number of respects.

Not to play devils advocate (no pun intended), but just being a MM progeny, doesn't warrant a BOB, if the traits don't adhere to what the standard calls for.

A 1:1 ratio in head, lack of a well defined stop and a downfaced look, high rear, leggy, etc., all contribute to a mediocre prospect with a nice pedigree!

But perhaps it's just the photo and I'm just full of crap!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #43 
I do agree on a number of points here ; quite a newbie in those days , I nevertheless was impressed by his grand size , ‘majestic’ appearance an quite nice outgoing movement . A factor being the judge , a grand old lady , ie Mrs Maisie Anderson of Bardayle kennels who bred a/o ch Havengore Balint in 1960 out of Bardayle Cindy Lou , the latter daughter to ch Meps Angus . So puzzling things together vis-a-vis phenotypes of Scirocco , Balint & Angus , I presume she was looking for an ‘upstanding’ aristocratic one of great height at shoulder annex a clean head/face instead of a overall lower set phenotype with a more chiselled broken up head piece .

Note – Scirocco was 20 mths old at that show , sired one Falmorehall litter out of MM’ daughter Bellabees Mynydd Perfydd dd Oct ’84 and one of them was F- Flamingo (see 3rd pic) , so far as one can judge such a youngster from ringside , she definitely wasn’t a flyer ... Scirocco died early , as far I remember , not even 3y old due to bone cancer .


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Reply with quote  #44 

A 2 generation expression of get despite his short life.

Quote:
 
Ruby        Falmorehall Sirocco      Willistown Hay Tor
                    

Pearl        Falmorehall Sirocco      Willistown Hay Tor
                    

Falmorehall Fortuna Of DeerRun     Falmorehall Sirocco      Bellabees Mynydd Perfydd
 10/4/1984 fawn                

Deer Run Lido Varig      Ch. Deer Run Sampson of Lido     Falmorehall Fortuna Of DeerRun
 1/8/1988 fawn                 

Falmorehall Fanfare Of DeerRun     Falmorehall Sirocco      Bellabees Mynydd Perfydd
 10/4/1984 fawn                

Deer Run Murphy Of Rivermist     Ch. Deer Run Durango      Falmorehall Fanfare Of DeerRun
 4/9/1987 fawn                 

Deer Run Loni Runway      Ch. Deer Run Durango      Falmorehall Fanfare Of DeerRun
 4/9/1987 fawn                 

Emerald 



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #45 

One of the perhaps less known grand ladies of the Mastiff in America has been Mrs Elizabeth A Dickey , wife to Mr Charles E Dickey , of ‘The Abbey’ prefix , Saginaw Michigan .

 

 

The Abbey foundation broods were the litter sisters ch I- Frostina (above at left handled by Mrs Dickey) Imperial Honey Bee  (above in the middle) & -, b March ’72 out of ch Frideswide Hereward’ ch daughter  Berngarth Sum Queen of Clyde sired by Engl ch Buckhall Mr Micawber’ brother ch Kisumu Tiberias ; Frideswide Hereward (above at rigt) , out of ch Copenore Rab’ grandaunt Taddington Emma sired by ch Havengore Balint , was brother to Frideswide Kis Balint who sired the Jilgrajon foundation brood Lisken Rowena . The Abbey foundation stud was ch Willow Point’ Warwick (pic below at left) , b Sept ’73 and double grandson to ch Kisumu Tiberias .

 

 

‘The Abbey’ litters -  b Nov ’74 out of Imperial Honey Bee sired by  Willow Point’ Warwick , contained The Abbey Governor (above at right handled by Mr Dickey) & - Bumble Bee ; - b July ’75 out of Honey Bee’ sis ch Imperial Frostina also sired by WP Warwick , a/o ch The A- Imperial Priscilla ; b  ’77 ? out of Bumble Bee sired by Honey Bee & Frostina’ brother ch Willow Point Wolverton , producing a/o The Abbey Bee Keeper , a Mastiff with a magnificent head oozing grandeur & dignity (below at left ; - March ’80 out of Warwick’ daughter The Abbey of Ja-Don sired by The Abbey Governor , a/o The A- Governor J Winthrop (below at right) .

 

Finally a quote by Elizabeth A Dickey – ‘ It is a great responsibility to breed these gentle-hearted creatures . With this in mind , we have limited our breedings (our champion bitches have had but one litter) and kept our numbers small . Although my husband and I enjoy showing our dogs , we get our greatest reward from the companionship of this great breed . The loyalty and devotion that is The Mastiff is a gift which must be cherished and protected .’
 

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Reply with quote  #46 

Remake for better reading ; things has been screwed up due to some faulty image format re 'export size' somewhere within the former posts !

 

One of the perhaps less known grand ladies of the Mastiff in America has been Mrs Elizabeth A Dickey , wife to Mr Charles E Dickey , of ‘The Abbey’ prefix ,

Saginaw Michigan .

 

 

The Abbey foundation broods were the litter sisters ch I- Frostina (above at left handled by Mrs Dickey) Imperial Honey Bee  (above in the middle) & -, b March ’72

out of ch Frideswide Hereward’ ch daughter  Berngarth Sum Queen of Clyde sired by Engl ch Buckhall Mr Micawber’ brother ch Kisumu Tiberias ;

Frideswide Hereward (above at rigt) , out of ch Copenore Rab’ grandaunt Taddington Emma sired by ch Havengore Balint , was brother to Frideswide Kis Balint

who sired the Jilgrajon foundation brood Lisken Rowena .

The Abbey foundation stud was ch Willow Point’ Warwick (pic below at left) , b Sept ’73 and double grandson to ch Kisumu Tiberias .

 

 

‘The Abbey’ litters -  b Nov ’74 out of Imperial Honey Bee sired by  Willow Point’ Warwick , contained The Abbey Governor (above at right handled by Mr Dickey) & - Bumble Bee ;

- b July ’75 out of Honey Bee’ sis ch Imperial Frostina also sired by WP Warwick , a/o ch The A- Imperial Priscilla ; b  ’77 ? out of Bumble Bee sired by Honey Bee & Frostina’ brother

ch Willow Point Wolverton , producing a/o The Abbey Bee Keeper , a Mastiff with a magnificent head oozing grandeur & dignity (below at left ;

- March ’80 out of Warwick’ daughter The Abbey of Ja-Don sired by The Abbey Governor , a/o The A- Governor J Winthrop (below at right) .

 

 

Finally a quote by Elizabeth A Dickey – ‘ It is a great responsibility to breed these gentle-hearted creatures . With this in mind , we have limited our breedings
(our champion bitches have had but one litter) and kept our numbers small . Although my husband and I enjoy showing our dogs ,
we get our greatest reward from the companionship of this great breed . The loyalty and devotion
that is The Mastiff is a gift which must be cherished and protected .’



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Reply with quote  #47 

True words from a grand lady!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #48 
I just loved
CH. WARLORDS SECRET AGENT MAN

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #49 

He may indeed be a notable specimen, but in your photo, his stack may have accentuated a sloping topline, which is not desirable in a Mastiff!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #50 
His color goes back to Queen Bess of Hellingly!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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