Harmony
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| | 07/29/10 at 03:35 AM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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Sad topic because it truly removes the "pet" from the equation but for some of "us" we must evaluate and sometimes place if what we kept/bought does not meet our standards.
At what age do you evaluate a male (after of course the 8 week choice)? Wen you evaluate is is based on structure, bone, temperament, head, etc.,? At what age can you say for sure "oh that is not going to be okay...no breeding or this dog?"
Same for a female? I have thought at times that females would not be good breeding quality only to see them a year later and think "oh my gosh.... WOW."
So, when your eye, some after decades, really gets dialed in.... when do you make the decision that your kept bitch or dog is not what you had thought structurally and you would not want that dog or bitch in your program?
Also, when do you override the physical presentation for the pedigree~?
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Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
"We often clash on things political, social, religious etc. One thing that holds us together is the wonderful personality and temperament of these unique beings ."
A quote from an inspirational mastiff owner~ Thanks H |
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Sunstone
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:27 AM | Reply with quote | #2 |
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I will probably catch some flack for this but . . . 
IMO~if you can't remove the pet from the equation to begin with, you have no business breeding! I think that evaluation of each dog in the program is an ongoing process, there comes a time when every dog will be removed from a program (theoretically, frozen semen aside), so it's really just a question of when.
On the flip side of this one, it truly puts the pet back into the equation, because once you make the decision not to breed an animal anymore they have a chance to become nothing BUT a pet, whether your's or someone else's!
Again~IMO pedigree should NEVER override the dog in front of you. If you don't like the dog why even look at the pedigree?
I have yet to produce a litter but I have removed big name dogs from my 'program' such as it is because they will make a more positive impact on this breed as pets.
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Barrie & the Sunstone Crew 
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" Let's not measure a breeders success by the amount of winning their dogs do in the show ring, but by the number of dogs that stay with the family that purchased them as a pup and that die in the arms of that same family 14 years later. In that case, we have three winners, the breeder, the family and most importantly, the dog." ~unknown |
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SteveOifer
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:37 AM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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But he has a fantastic pedigree!!!!!!!!!!!!
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For the betterment of the breed!
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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hman
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| | 07/29/10 at 05:23 PM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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I know of a few breeders who might say, "why throw the whole dog out just because he's a little undershot". Sad, but very true.
H
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uhhh....Teddy, you've got a little somethin' on your.... |
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owenspride
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:27 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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I think I've seen this dog in the ring!
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M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
our golden boy forever;
CH. Brookside's Worth the Weight CGC (12/6/96-12/9/07)
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RA CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle
Owenspride Absolute Aplomb
CH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
kitties:Stinky, Horton, Peapod, Big Fat Whitey and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
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owenspride
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:41 PM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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My six cents :
| | Yesterday at 11:35 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
| Sad topic because it truly removes the "pet" from the equation but for some of "us" we must evaluate and sometimes place if what we kept/bought does not meet our standards.
I will never remove the idea of "pet" -ness from my life; my dogs are pets first; members of the family and IF they become quality such that I want to breed them; I will ( nervously) subject them to a breeding for my own ( or some may call " the breed"s benefit; but in reality it is in furtherance of our own aspirations as well)
To me, the idea of "pet" is not one that must be separate from a breeding specimen. Some are pets only, some are pets and possible breeding specimens. But my pets are my pets, period, once and forver. Unless something happens that prohibits them from being able to live together; if there were a bitch fight for instance.
At what age do you evaluate a male (after of course the 8 week choice)? Wen you evaluate is is based on structure, bone, temperament, head, etc.,? At what age can you say for sure "oh that is not going to be okay...no breeding or this dog?"
I would say, if he isn't exactly where you want him to be by age two, three at the most; then I'd not use him at stud. But what's the rus; if you are planning on keeping the dog unneutered then there is no harm in continuing to assess him as he matures even later into life . If, on the other hand, the intention is to neuter him if he doesn't turn out; I'd pick about age two to decide.
Same for a female? I have thought at times that females would not be good breeding quality only to see them a year later and think "oh my gosh.... WOW."
I would say the same age for the bitches as well. They should be what you want to see, in totality, by age two to three. If a bitch wasn't exactly what I wanted to see by age three; I'd definately spay her and keep her only as a pet.
So, when your eye, some after decades, really gets dialed in.... when do you make the decision that your kept bitch or dog is not what you had thought structurally and you would not want that dog or bitch in your program?
Same answer; nobody would be getting bred prior to that time anyway; and if I didn't like what I saw entirely around 2-3 years of age, the girlies would be spayed; and the boya may or may NOt be neutered; depending on their personalities. I think you have a little more leeway with the boys as far as watching them goes; it's better to wait to stud them until they are REALLY developed and mature ; and in most cases they will be fine hanging onto those testes in the interim. My bitches I don't like to let sit tooo too long intact without spaying them.
Also, when do you override the physical presentation for the pedigree~?
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I never do. You've got to LOVE the dog in front of you.
__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
our golden boy forever;
CH. Brookside's Worth the Weight CGC (12/6/96-12/9/07)
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RA CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle
Owenspride Absolute Aplomb
CH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
kitties:Stinky, Horton, Peapod, Big Fat Whitey and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/ |
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owenspride
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Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,233
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:43 PM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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Alright; my quote things didn't WORK!!
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M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
our golden boy forever;
CH. Brookside's Worth the Weight CGC (12/6/96-12/9/07)
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RA CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle
Owenspride Absolute Aplomb
CH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
kitties:Stinky, Horton, Peapod, Big Fat Whitey and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/ |
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owenspride
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Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,233
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| | 07/29/10 at 10:44 PM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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ok, my quote things didn't WORK, AND, the use of the term "you" doesn't mean Monica, or anyone, it is the "YOUniversal YOU"
__________________
M.C.Kay &
Ron Mantley
our golden boy forever;
CH. Brookside's Worth the Weight CGC (12/6/96-12/9/07)
CH. Sherwood's Anticipatience RA CGC; B.O.B. Bucks, 2007
Pikachu RN CGC
Owenspride Caught in a Pickle
Owenspride Absolute Aplomb
CH.Owenspride Better Weight than Never ; B.O.B. Trenton, 2010
kitties:Stinky, Horton, Peapod, Big Fat Whitey and Blackie Nubbins
check us out at:
http://owenspride.com/ |
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oldschool
Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 110
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| | 07/31/10 at 12:52 PM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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Monica said:
At what age do you evaluate a male (after of course the 8 week choice)? Wen you evaluate is is based on structure, bone, temperament, head, etc.,? At what age can you say for sure "oh that is not going to be okay...no breeding or this dog?"
Same for a female? I have thought at times that females would not be good breeding quality only to see them a year later and think "oh my gosh.... WOW."
So, when your eye, some after decades, really gets dialed in.... when do you make the decision that your kept bitch or dog is not what you had thought structurally and you would not want that dog or bitch in your program?
Also, when do you override the physical presentation for the pedigree~?
I think there is no "one" age. Evaluation should constantly be occurring--Including after you have bred a dog and you get to see what it is producing, especially in conjunction with different bloodlines. For example, our dogs and bitches don't typically mature until 4 years of age. Many people who see our dogs and bitches at 2 years of age can't believe they are the same dog at 4 years. If we threw them out at 2 we'd have no dogs left! LOL. A breeder needs to know their lines enough to tell what will continue to change and what is probably set. That comes with experience. While I can tell on my own dogs and dogs from my line, the more outside lines are thrown in, the more difficult to judge. So the more outcrosses made the more time it will take to learn what has changed in your own line. Therefore, a breeder must always be objective about their dogs and be able to make the hard decision that a breeding didn't work, even if it is a decision that is made a generation or more later. (make sense?)
As for the question of "when do you override the physical presentation for the pedigree"-- in a word, never. Every dog has flaws and faults, physically and with their pedigrees. A breeder's role is to always balance what each dog exhibits with the potential of the pedigree (as judged by the physical attributes of the dogs in the pedigree and what those dogs have produced whenever they have been bred). There is no point when a great breeder would sacrifice one for the other. Instead a great breeder looks at the whole picture and tries to make the best decision to balance out all of the potential flaws and qualities. Then that breeder looks at the result over time and evaluates the results, not ever being afraid to accept that, in some instances, the result is not what they were expecting, or in other cases, the result was even greater than they expected.
One is never overriding the other, they are always to be considered in concert.
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Jess
Old School Mastiffs (the next generation)
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Harmony
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Registered: 01/18/10
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| | 07/31/10 at 05:09 PM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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Thanks for the replies everyone~
Jess, a special thanks to you for replying from a breeding standpoint and yes, it all made sense.
Sorry for all the types in my initial thread - eek~
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Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
"We often clash on things political, social, religious etc. One thing that holds us together is the wonderful personality and temperament of these unique beings ."
A quote from an inspirational mastiff owner~ Thanks H |
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