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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #1 
The reason why I bring this up, is because of a post made in error on another forum by a well known Mastiff person.  I don't post there for obvious reasons, and I registered to only post a correction regarding tail length, but found that access was denied me, so I contacted the forum owner and simply mentioned the error to her.
After that, a personal attack against me began by the one who made the error. I've decided not to respond in kind, even though his bizarre rantings & lies are well known in the Mastiff community.
An earlier poster on that forum asked about tail length and I don't like seeing  information erroneously given out on standardized Mastiff form in particular.

Tail length from the UK standard:

Quote:

Tail
Set on high, and reaching to hocks, or a little below them, wide at its root and tapering to end, hanging straight in repose, but forming a curve with end pointing upwards, but not over back, when dog is excited.

Tail length from the AC standard:
 

Quote:

Tail set on moderately high and reaching to the hocks or a little below. Wide at the root, tapering to the end, hanging straight in repose, forming a slight curve, but never over the back when the dog is in motion.



Correct length is clearly stated in both standards and all those who breed Mastiffs should know this by heart!
Especially those who are always first to criticize , without any regard for facts, feelings, or manners and yet hold themselves above all others!
 
I might add, that tails may reach the hock and still be short in length!
 
This anomaly occurs when the croup is too steep (low tail set)and thereby allows the tail to drop to the hock, so that it appears to be of the correct length.
 
In truth, the tail proper is still short. Therefore, a correct croup angle & tail set, must accommodate a tail that is to be considered correct in length!


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #2 
 VS
As one can observe in this famous Mastiff, the low tail set and steep croup, enables the tail to reach the hock and meet the desired length called for in the standard.

Yet, if this same tail were placed on a dog with a high set tail and level croup, it would fall short of the hock.

When pairing dogs for breeding, to correct for a steep croup, one must also consider correct tail length and not assume, that a tail is correct just because it may reach the hock.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
GinaG

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Reply with quote  #3 
Tails....you win!!!!
hugs,
Gina

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JkinBlack

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Reply with quote  #4 
So does the tail grow proportionately with the legs while they are growing and maturing? Or can a tail be within standard at 6 months, short at 14 months, and within standard again at 2 1/2 years?

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #5 
Unlike other structural bony components in dogs, the bones in the tail are not of equal numbers in different breeds, or intra-breed for that matter.

The typical range is from 6-23 vertebrae in the tail, depending on the breed.

The tail will grow just as in any other part of the anatomy, and there can be fluctuations & variability at different stages of growth.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #8 

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Tracy

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Reply with quote  #9 

he suffers from BBC  Bitch be crazy  I saw some of the rantings and thought oh dear cant believe you even went on there steve


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #10 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

Tracy,

I went to clarify, not to engage!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Teresa

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Reply with quote  #12 
Steve, you weren't denied. I don't know where you got that idea. I went to great lengths to be sure you had access and yes, took flack for it. Also, I CLEARLY made it known that I WELCOME exchange of ideas/thoughts BUT NOT abuse or name calling.  As Linda can tell you, sometimes it's hard to make everyone happy, but I truly TRY to keep a civil tone...granted, I don't always succeed, but I try.  Personally, I believe health debates are great, but there's no need for name calling, ugly cartoons and the like.

Your clarification was duly noted on tail set. Thanks...

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WalnutCrest

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Reply with quote  #13 
So, Steve, in all your cartoons, the front shoulder angle is approximately 45 degrees and the rear pelvic angle is approximately 30 degrees.

How would you describe the desired angles in mastiff shoulder and rear construction?

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #14 
Teresa,

I have not said one negative thing about your input! You have a tough task in keeping the inmates at bay! I fully sympathize!

Just stating what occurred when I tried to log on.
I tried several aliases, so it would not intimidate you know who, but they weren't accepted. So SGO was finally accepted, but when I tried to post, it was blocked automatically.

That's why I e-mailed you on your site!

Not to worry, I'm used to the attacks and the false accusations from the duck! Nothing new!

No doubt there is nothing that he can learn from anyone, other than himself!

In his words, I'm a failed breeder, but there are worse things to be called,............. like a failed human being!

In any case, have that poster who was interested in correct tail length read what I wrote, and perhaps it will clarify her view on the topic! Perhaps not!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

Quote:

How would you describe the desired angles in mastiff shoulder and rear construction?



It depends on who you read, or what you believe!

Mastiffs are a front loaded breed and if you're concerned about movement, then you want a front shoulder angulation that will accommodate to the impact, that a heavy front end will endure after repeated poundings.

The degree of shoulder angle serves as a shock absorber, so steep shoulders will increase the shock on pasterns and over time, can cause a breaking down of pasterns and the erosion of foot pads.

Rear pelvic angles and croup angles, are not always measured at the same degree, since they are not necessarily dependent on one another.

A good topline can be had with a 30 degree pelvic angle, provided that the croup is commensurate, or even less than that 30 degrees.

Good movement is not fixed, or set on front & rear angles being equal, as the appendicular skeletal system, is far more complex than just shoulder to pelvis angulation ratios.

Length of leg, encompassing femur, tibia, hock, radius, scapula, ulna, metacarpus, metatarsus, etc. all combine and interact in that regard.

The task that the dog is designed for, also factors into this equation and is certainly variable, based on historic complexities due to size, job and Forest Laws, which all impacted on general structural desirabilities, just to name a few.

The modern show Mastiff, needs the type of angulation that can enable it to move effortlessly and cover ground easily for a dog weighing 200 lbs+.

That means good front angulation, approx. 35 degrees and good rear angulation, with pelvis angles no more than 30 degrees. Coupled to the proper leg lengths & leg angulations!

Proper is as proper is designed to do, so when asking about proper angles, one must always first determine the task at hand, in order to formulate the desired structure to achieve that task!

That, coupled to the standard's changing tenets, can at times become a conundrum of sorts, but a good Mastiff is admired by most fanciers, even if they don't fully know why!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Teresa

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Reply with quote  #16 
Well, I assure you there was no malice on my part. Actually, I had another poster have the same problem. We emailed back and forth and finally got it fixed, but it took me knowing he had a problem before I could fix it.... Sometimes, these boards can have a mind of their own. I know my board requires a confirmed email back before it will accept a new person. The reason it's set up that way is because (as Linda's seen), I get tons of "fake" applicants. They never confirm their email so they never can never post; they also can't add spam, or worse, VIRUSES!!

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #17 
Teresa,

No doubt it was due to the time lag upon registration. I harbor no ill feelings towards you in this regard.

It should be of interest in noting the date this thread was started.

It's dated the 26th (see above).

On your forum, Don's attack against me was dated the 25th.
 
Unless Don went through a wormhole, I believe it clearly shows who began this public nonsense!

Once again, not looking to ruffle the feathers of the duck, just showing the facts, before they become blurred by dozens of misleading posts.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Teresa

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Reply with quote  #18 
I think that problem has been resolved.


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #19 
It's been dealt with for sure, being resolved may be another story!...LOL
I posted the above before the deletions of his threads.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

Measuring tail length is also without set understandings.

Some measure by angling the tail to the hock. Others measure it dead center while in repose.

Angling the tail to the hock requires more tail to reach that point, since an arc is created by the side motion. A tail that may appear to come down to the hock at center, may fall a bit short when angled to the side.

If a Mastiff is well angulated, with hocks well set back, this may increase the need for a longer tail if measured to the hock when angled. But this does not mean that the tail was not of a correct length. Conversely, a straight stifled dog would need a shorter tail if measured the same way.

This is why the tail should be measured while hanging in the center and only if relaxed. The horizontal plane of the hocks should intersect the tip of the tail if the tail is of a correct length, not withstanding a low tail set, which should be negatively factored in to the overall evaluation if the tail just reaches the hock.

Many judges will not factor in the tail set when measuring tail length, which if set too low, will show a correct tail length, but in fact the tail is not the correct length in many instances!

The tail is not a major trait, yet it should not be ignored or discounted. Over time, if we are too forgiving of minor traits, they tend to become larger problems farther down the road.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
collie

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Reply with quote  #21 
To change the focus a little, I think a real fault is a whip-like tail, in the manner of a Dane.
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #22 
Correct!
Nothing more unsightly than a thin whip-like tail on a Mastiff.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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