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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #1 
Muscles well defined & a well knit frame, define both standard's tenets (UK &AKC) in regard to an aspect of structural integrity.

Some Mastiffs may appear tightly wrapped, but upon closer examination, laxity in a number of areas become evident.

Loose skin, if excessive, can make the Mastiff appear to be loose overall, even though in a number of instances, the underlying structure is relatively well integrated.

Other structures can be more flagrant in regards to connectivity & strength.

True substance is solid not hollow, and we can easily recognize this difference by placing hands on the dog. Rib cages should be firm when examined, not flexing too excessively upon lateral forces acting upon this structure, nor should it be without sufficient mass (true muscle) to reinforce integrity.

The flank should be deeply set and not look carved out, as though the dog lacks sufficient mass coming down off of the lumbar area.

Forechests must not protrude too far, or look pigeon breasted, as a solid front is a well muscled observable structure, free of excessive fat, skin, or hollowed breastbone, with mass to solidify & support this impact zone.

Muscles must be apparent throughout the structure, which requires relatively tight skin, to enable true definition of same to emerge. Excessive skin & laxity, inhibits this aesthetic and softens the look. Wrinkle is site specific and does not mean that it must invade other areas of the body, which will create unwanted folds & dewlap, above & beyond what the standard states as correct, or ideal.

Connective tissue throughout the form must be tight and if properly conditioned, will still allow for free extension upon movement.

It's not enough for a Mastiff to appear as though it were well packaged, it must be genuine!





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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Sunstone

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Reply with quote  #2 


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h

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Reply with quote  #3 

Sorry.

 

I thought this thread was about stools.

 

I do agree, however.

 

 


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

Sure glad you said stools H!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #5 
I think you should have said, Hard or Soft, you would have had far more comments !!
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

May I suggest you take a great weight off of your mind!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

I've been accused of worse!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Tracy

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Reply with quote  #8 

ok, I ws thinking that a photo might help. I have two fawn boys reggie and Tuck reggie is what I would call tight knit, and interestingly enough has stayed that way even now at 10 1/2 years old  he is however in my mind a little short backed. 

Tuck My always example has beautiful muscle but he is loose, he only looks well knit on a run, other than that his mucsle definition , other than his thighs is not clearly seen. He is though the longest boy I have ever seen.  add into that he is shorter in the front than the rear by about 1 1/2 inches, which he can pull it together on a run.

Tuck

 

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Tracy

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Reply with quote  #9 

visualize loose vs tight body  ie regie is tight knit, Tuck is loose.

The first sentence in his post applies to the standard, which is what I was referring to, farther down at tightly wrapped honestly, not something that made me look twice.  When I think of tightly wrapped I think of people who are wound a little to tight, those willing to jump at every issue as thier own, I am related to a couple of them.


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If you dont rescue, Dont Breed.
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein
Ch Sherwood Ranchlands Friar Tuck
Ch Windypines ir Reginald Montgomery ( in heaven)
National and Internation and sooo close Ch Ranchlands Duecs Wild ( In heaven)
Windy Pines Mid-night Maxi ( In Heaven)
Pallone Ranchlands Diamond Lil ( In Heaven)
Winsomes Ranchlands Maid Marion
Ch. Ranchlands Windimup and Watchimgo
Ranchlands Amazing Grace
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #10 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #11 
That's the trouble when we use metaphors. In ordinary conversation it's no big deal, because one can always question the speaker to clarify the statement.

When used in print, especially in a breed standard, it can create a ubiquitous conundrum, which can span 100 years!

A prime example is height coming from depth of chest not length of leg.

That metaphor, in some instances throughout the modern era, has created short legged Mastiffs, short Mastiffs, straight shoulders and Mastiffs with unusually deep chests, which are more prone to bloating..

I saw a lovely brindle Bullmastiff special at one of the Freehold shows this weekend and he was tightly wrapped. And by that I mean, solid everywhere!

No laxity, just genuine substance. Muscle, not fat. Skin set at just the right tension, with muscles well defined. A complete package for an outstanding Bullmastiff representative.

Unfortunately, we rarely see Mastiffs so well tuned. Many are large, but lacking tone & true substance throughout, i.e. from head to toe.

So yes, my metaphor being tightly wrapped may even need further explanation, but I think you get the essence of my meaning.





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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
WalnutCrest

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer

... and Mastiffs with unusually deep chests, which are more prone to bloating..


Really?  

I'm sure the research is out there, or some anecdotal stories of such, but I'm not familiar with them.  Details would be appreciated, if there not too hard to post.  TIA.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #13 

http://www.berner.org/pages/gastro_intestinal/purdue_study_report.php


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:

> Lean dogs were found to be at higher risk than overweight dogs. It is
> hypothesized that this is because fat takes up space in the abdomen. The
> lack of fat in the abdomen of a lean dog creates a basic situation similar
> to that of a dog with a deep and narrow chest: A lean dog has much more
room
> in the abdomen for the stomach to move around than a fat dog. This does
not
> mean, of course, that overweight dogs are generally healthier than lean
> dogs.



This additional info was either from the Tufts study or Purdue study.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #15 
Last I looked, a mongrel could be in good condition as well!

What I am stating goes beyond conditioning!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #16 
Really ? It reads like a rather odd description of good condition with some very different instructions for hands-on examinations and some strange descriptions of bit and pieces. I see nothing in your statement that is breed specific, that could not be applied to any dog ...or for that matter to horses, cattle, cats, lions... let's try it out ok ?  I guess I'm in for another game of GOTCHA!


Muscles well defined & a well knit frame, define both standard's tenets in regard to an aspect of structural integrity.

Some horses and goats may appear tightly wrapped, but upon closer examination, laxity in a number of areas become evident. Why stop there? A good Hershey Bar should be tightly wrapped as well!

Loose skin, if excessive, can make the horse or goat appear to be loose overall, even though in a number of instances, the underlying structure is relatively well integrated.

Other structures can be more flagrant in regards to connectivity & strength.

True substance is solid not hollow, and we can easily recognize this difference by placing hands on the horse or goat . Rib cages should be firm when examined, not flexing too excessively upon lateral forces acting upon this structure, nor should it be without sufficient mass (true muscle) to reinforce integrity.
 In the goat it's a Ba-a-a-ad analogy!
The flank should be deeply set and not look carved out, as though the horse or goat lacks sufficient mass coming down off of the lumbar area. You need to visit a lumber yard Erika!

Forechests must not protrude too far, or look pigeon breasted, as a solid front is a well muscled observable structure, free of excessive fat, skin, or hollowed breastbone, with mass to solidify & support this impact zone. Pigeons, on the other hand, should not have Mastiff-like forechests! Gets in the way of their flying.

Muscles must be apparent throughout the structure, which requires relatively tight skin, to enable true definition of same to emerge. Excessive skin & laxity, inhibits this aesthetic and softens the look. Wrinkle is site specific and does not mean that it must invade other areas of the body, which will create unwanted folds & dewlap, above & beyond what the standard states as correct, or ideal.

Connective tissue throughout the form must be tight and if properly conditioned, will still allow for free extension upon movement.

It's not enough for a horse or a goat to appear as though it were well packaged, it must be genuine! Same for wallets, which are made from the hide of such creatures, provided they were tight and well wrapped before becoming wallet sized!

Now stools are another matter, since their standard does not call for short legs, but I guess it's purely subjective and can be determined to be correct, especially if goats are to be used in their promotion. Then again, pigeon stools are a lot shorter than goat stools, but that's a subject for another day!




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #17 
Well Erika, under the rules of your game, if I gave you a weather report, your bellicose ways would find a way to make my forecast appear as a polemic!

I can only explain to you what I mean, I can't comprehend it for you. 

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #18 
What I am stating goes beyond conditioning! Was not meant to be an explanation for you of my observation, or self aggrandizement, thank you.
It was said to inform you that your view was narrow and conditioning alone does not constitute correct form & structure. It's why I added that a mongrel could be well conditioned!
It's unfortunate that you selectively overlook such reasoning!
So once again, what I am saying goes beyond mere conditioning.
I'm not discounting conditioning.
I'm saying that genetic structure is independent of conditioning ( e.g. pure bred forms vs mongrelized forms) and can be enhanced by conditioning, but not created by conditioning.
So as not to be judged & juried through your gotcha filter, I would add that morphological changes do occur through conditioning, as in body builder before & after photos would demonstrate. But once again, these are different forces at work! What I'm saying, goes beyond conditioning, as it resides in the genetic sphere of influence, not in the realm of nurturing.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #19 
Just because Erika might see it as bloviations & aggrandizements, I might add, that I'm not going to feign ignorance in subjects I'm familiar with, or stop freely  sharing such subject matter with others!
If others disagree with what I say, we can debate the merits of an issue, or they can form whatever views they wish. No arm twisting.
If I needed an ego boost, it would certainly not come from such venues as an internet forum.
As I've stated to those who have private messaged me, on more than one occasion, I weigh the compliments & the criticisms equally, never personalizing either one! Since both are typically born from similar mothers.
So yes, as not to sound callous, or hypocritical, it's nicer to hear a compliment than a criticism, but one must take both with grains of salt!
My gratification is derived by sharing info with others. When I was a newbie, my exploration was very difficult. No internet, snail mail, no fax machines and limited mentors, with limited knowledge.
By sharing my subjective learnings on such forums, which do not have to be digested by all, it's my wish to make it easier for those beginners to sort out the wheat from the chaff, as I am not the only poster on this forum with a perspective on Mastiffs.




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #20 
#t=387s

Perhaps a picture is worth more than words.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
dixierockstarr

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Reply with quote  #21 

Yes Steve, please keep sharing.


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GinaG

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Reply with quote  #22 
Steve...I love your posts although I usually get lost and sometimes find them too serious but also noteworthy. It's hard to convey a message that sometimes gets "overdone" while keeping the subject fresh and relevant ...I wish I had your Mastiff knowledge, but then again I would not want to debate quite so often, but it seems to be your "thing"...(could not spell fortay)...see what I mean?...I just love the breed for what it is and what it isn't at times. I'm not a Pollyanna but I think so much dissection of a topic gets listless and yawnsville. I understand the need to keep type and I have seen many loosy goosy Mastiffs (eyes, backs, overall overdone) but figured it was poor breeding along with genetics and Mother Nature....
I also think it's important for everyone especially beginners to be able to study a Mastiff and make note of it's faults as well as it's wonderful qualities. They are the future for our breed, which sometimes scares me, but with people like you at the helm of education, we might stand a chance.
Thanks for the thread and discussion...loosely speaking...
Gina

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gina anelli
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Reply with quote  #23 
I understand what Steve is saying, but I can also see Erika's point of view. It is true that many top dogs are road-worked to build muscle tone and definition that gives them the "well-knit" look. However, I prefer to see dogs who come about it naturally. There are some dogs that turn to mush without focused excercise, and there are some that maintain definition of muscle and taut bodies with just the excercise of "normal life".

I've got a few examples here of 4 Mastiffs who are house dogs (and 1 yard dog), who got no excercise other than what they decided to do on their own in occasional play, and while they each have their individual faults and qualities, I think they all exhibit the well defined muscle and well-knit frame being discussed here. Yes, it is good to lay hands on a dog to feel the solid muscle, rather than yielding fat and skin, but you can see it without touching, especially if you see the dog in motion. They should have little or no body roll if they are built with muscle, rather than fat and skin.









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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #24 
Gina,

I've been remanded by some in the past of getting too technical, or over the top. I was advised to lower the bar, so that most could more easily understand what I'm saying.

But as you can see, if I get too lax, I'm then approached as not being specific enough by some, so it's a difficult balancing act at times.

BTW, forte is usually mispronounced by most, as the correct pronunciation would confuse most listeners, so the majority of folks just use the popular pronunciation in order to communicate meaning. (see below)
Quote:
 

In the sense of a person's strong suit ( He draws well, but sculpture is his real forte ), the older and historical pronunciation of forte is the one-syllable [fawrt] Show IPA or [fohrt], pronounced as the English word fort. The word is derived from the French word fort, meaning “strong.” A two-syllable pronunciation [fawr-tey] is increasingly heard, especially from younger educated speakers, perhaps owing to confusion with the musical term forte, pronounced in English as [fawr-tey] and in Italian as [fawr-te]. Both the one- and two-syllable pronunciations of forte are now considered standard.




Using this as an example, it's easy to see how I might be seen as getting too technical, or hung up, on such trivial matters. After all, who cares about the correct pronunciation of forte?

Yet, if left totally unchecked, the incorrect version proliferates and becomes seen, or regarded, as the proper way of expression.

The same holds true with the standard and other aspects of the breed that we take for granted. If something is spoken about often enough by many fanciers, it becomes accepted as correct in most circles, when in fact, it may be totally wrong!

Trying to change such views, can be a very difficult task. It's an uphill battle when trying to shift a given into another form. Separate camps can emerge and a dissonance of sorts typically gets blamed on the one who pulled the rug out from the feet of the majority of thinkers!

So getting back to your response, no doubt, I'm clumsy at times in my attempts to give an alternate view of a subject.t times I can get technical and lose the interest of a reader, or not communicate the point as intended. It's hard to express everything in print, at times much easier to discuss in person.

So at least know that I'm always trying to improve my delivery, but I have no distortions that I can never please everyone at the same time. So bear with me!




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:

I have no delusions that I can always please everyone at the same time

 
**Corrected from the prior post, as this reads better
 
Where is the edit button when you need it?

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
GinaG

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Reply with quote  #26 
Steve...You are one in a zillion!!!...and I don't care about spelling either. I just forget sometimes in the middle of the night...LOL..
I'm still learning..
G

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Reply with quote  #27 

Actually, I'm one in 7 billion, as are you!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #28 
I have been a forum member since 2010 -- although most of that interval has focussed on researching mastiffs as potential additions to our family (we recently bought a nice dark brindle EM boy named Boris). For me such research entails cultivating an indepth understanding of the history and development of the breed, as well as health issues, intention behind and interpretation of current breed standards and their phenotypical consequences and so on.

I have learned a great deal from many of you, thank you all! However, I have spent hour upon fascinated hour reading and reflecting upon threads devoted to these topics which were initiated by, and or heavily contributed to by Steve. I found Steve's rigorous technical detail, specificity and depth invaluable. I personally have never found his posts to be boring or dull in the slightest.

I also believe these discussions/debates are vitally important to maintaining and improving the breed. For decades my family has kept Wolfhounds and another giant breed I probably shouldn't mention. We do have a wolfie now, in addition to our Mastiff puppy. However, we will never have another of the other breed again -- moving into Mastiffs instead. 

One of the primary reasons is what we perceive as the
 deterioration of the breed in terms of health and temperament.  Additionally a particular conformation and  phenotype have been embraced in the show ring despite  seeming to diverge significantly from AKC breed  standards. Within that breed community there has been very little dialogue about these issues. The all too common temperament issues (timid, skittish, fear aggressive) are dealt with by suggesting owners consult behaviourists.

There has been little intelligent and thought provoking debate on (this particular breed's) main  forums  about the meaning and interpretation of the standard. Most such discussions -- when they have been initiated at all -- rapidly disintegrate into heated emotionalism.

So, to reiterate, I personally find these debates both illuminating and important to continue. I hope we will be able to engage in many more.



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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool


I've got a few examples here of 4 Mastiffs









Thank you for sharing! I think these videos are very helpful and give a good example.  

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Reply with quote  #30 
I'm saying, that the basic predisposition towards either is genetically based.

Phenotype, is a broader term, which can be influenced by nature & nurture, depending on the specific item under observation.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #31 


In other words, all the conditioning in the world wasn't going to convert Don Knotts into Andy Griffith!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #32 
A dog is a mammal just like us, if we are malnourished from babies to adulthood we will not have the adult form, we would have had, if we were provided with the nourishment needed to form our genetic being.

So if nourishment is not correct for the dog from young, no amount of conditioning can repair the faults caused by this, just as rickets etc in people cannot be reversed !

Conditioning can build and tone muscle, but muscle built onto a bad structure by force, can worsen movement and will not last naturally, as the body will not keep muscle, added after adult growth, unless needed for day to day use ! 

A Mastiff needs to be fed correctly from weaning to adulthood, along with daily exercise to the extent off very rare naps. In other words they should not be sleeping anymore hours than we do in a day, and have plenty to keep them occupied when they are awake, with plenty space to run and play !
Then you will see muscles well defined, and all !!!

If you have a Mastiff couped up in a crate or run from day to day, do not expect to meet the standard with muscle tone !!!


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Reply with quote  #33 
Grant, we can interject many other scenarios that will affect proper growth.

All Mastiffs will benefit from being conditioned, as opposed to being couch potatoes.

If we analyze the core issue, it boils down to what constitutes a Mastiff.

Does a pedigree define a breed?

Not when variability is so pervasive within one breed!

If we expect a muscular, massive, well conditioned & well knit structure, then we must first define type.

Not all Mastiffs are Mastiffs, even with great pedigrees!

The influences of earlier crosses will emerge in many specimens and detract from the qualities we've admired in videos presented on this thread.

Dane-like influences still exist and true substance is wanting, even in larger types we see.

So although conditioning & proper nutrition are a given, in any regimen when owning a Mastiff, it cannot insure an optimal outcome for a correct Mastiff specimen to emerge.

Genetics will always prevail in the end!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Grant

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer


So although conditioning & proper nutrition are a given, in any regimen when owning a Mastiff, it cannot insure an optimal outcome for a correct Mastiff specimen to emerge.
Conditioning and proper nutrition, will help make the most off what we have, and show up the good points to make a better picture, and therefore help in picking stock for future breeding's, to achieve correct type !
Nothing can insure an optimal outcome, with so many cooks !


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Reply with quote  #35 
Mongrels remain mongrels, despite eating daily at Sardi's, or exercising at Gold's gym 24/7!

We must also be wary of masking poor genetics, through hyper-active exercise regimens.

A natural predisposition toward true body mass & substance, is typically passed down to future generations through genetic transference, not through road work! We see this in a number of specimens that have popular sires in their recent pedigrees.

As just one example, we see Joe into Mary's Cole, which was not created by smoke, or mirrors. It's the genetic flow, that trumps other secondary efforts at masking weakness.

Conditioning a Mastiff that is already a fine specimen, only adds to the aesthetic!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #36 
Clearly genetics and how a dog is raised contribute to how it looks. What is massively unclear (despite being told it has been "explained") is what THIS MEANS...

Muscles well defined & a well knit frame, define both standard's tenets (UK &AKC) in regard to an aspect of structural integrity.

Yes, the dog should have muscle and the term "well-knit" is used in the AKC as "The Mastiff is a large, massive, symmetrical dog with a well-knit frame. "

Some Mastiffs may appear tightly wrapped, but upon closer examination, laxity in a number of areas become evident.

Again, what does "tightly wrapped" mean ?  Based on the sentence above, is "tightly wrapped" being used as antonym to "laxity" ? Can a puppy be "tightly wrapped" ? 
  Can a well conditioned dog (of any breed or breeds) display "laxity" ? Can a dog be tightly-wrapped and lax at the same time ? Well defined muscles (UK) can be interpreted differently from a well knit frame (AKC)! Tightly wrapped was used as a metaphor to express a general combination of both standard's expression in that regard. It was not used to be all defining, or expressive of what the antonym of laxity pertaining to the Mastiff should represent, just used to augment the general topic. The thread was not finished and before it was complete, I had hoped further queries would be voiced in order to stimulate further discussions on this issue. And yes, a dog can appear to be tightly wrapped and still be lax in certain respects (dysplastic hips, etc.). A puppy can be tightly wrapped for a puppy (breed general) but typically in Mastiffs (breed specific) some laxity will appear, due to connective parts & tissues not yet fully integrated into the structure. It's why eating lamb is more tender than mutton.



Loose skin, if excessive, can make the Mastiff appear to be loose overall, even though in a number of instances, the underlying structure is relatively well integrated.

Huh ? Certainly there are other breeds - Neo, Bloodhound - where there is loose skin, but in a fit dog no appearance of being "loose overall"..
 

Well, we may part company on this issue, since a fit Mastiff would certainly appear to be lax if excessive skin were present!
 
.Bloodhound...
"
He is very powerful, and stands over more ground than is usual with hounds of other breeds. The skin is thin to the touch and extremely loose, this being more especially noticeable about the head and neck, where it hangs in deep folds."



and what is a "well integrated" structure ? Integrated with the SKIN ???  Does that mean good basic conformation ? I didn't say well integrated form, which might imply conformation, I used the term structure, which was meant to target the appendicular & axial skeletal systems, plus the muscle groups, which can either be attached to bone, or to tendons. In that attachment, there can be varying connective tissue strengths through the quality of the collagen being formed. You can have good muscle mass with laxity, due to weak collagen, or an out of balanced skeletal system with tight muscle connections, so a well integrated structure should combine all desirable factors mentioned, into a well defined & well knit frame.

Other structures can be more flagrant in regards to connectivity & strength.

"more flagrant" than what ? More flagrant than skin ?? So skin is "flagrant"  in regards to "connectivity and strength" ? Really ?
So skin is "shockingly noticeable or evident" in regards to connectivity and strength ? Again, please see bloodhound above. I was referring to movement and the connectivity expressed, or lack thereof, revealing itself in a more flagrant manner upon observation of the dog in motion, or when static with external forces applied to the structure..It's why hands are placed on dogs at shows.

True substance is solid not hollow, and we can easily recognize this difference by placing hands on the dog.

What I believe you intend is "truly substantial is solid not hollow".  As has been already pointed out, it is certainly not required to touch to discern a solid dog. There are times that a solid looking dog can reveal weakness upon external forces applied, as stated before, so I disagree with your blanket view in this regard.

Rib cages should be firm when examined, not flexing too excessively upon lateral forces acting upon this structure,

Huh ? Has anyone had a mastiff rib cage bend on a hand exam ?  Really??  What this says is "ribs should not flex when side pressure is applied" .....
Not every exam is done by a judge at a show. When you examine your own Mastiff, we would want internal substance to be at work within the rib cage, which would create a better environment on several fronts. Reduced bloating will be enhanced by a fully loaded thoracic cavity (another metaphor for you to challenge) and a certain degree of adipose tissue to cushion organs, yet not present too much in extreme, which would create softness if combined in disproportionate ratios with muscle tissue. 
nor should it be without sufficient mass (true muscle) to reinforce integrity.

Muscle on the rib cage (or sorry, "true" muscle as opposed to "false" muscle I suppose ?) to "reinforce integrity" ?   I have no idea what the conceit behind this is.  A dog in very poor condition, totally wasted, a substantial loss of muscle, do the ribs lack "integrity" ?  Slab sided, barrel chested, herring gutted....all have the integrity of the ribs present, just laid out wrong.  What would ribs lacking integrity look like ? How exactly would they manifest ? What does a rib cage without mass to reinforce integrity actually look like (or ok, if you must..feel like ?)


I believe you can see the muscle group covering the rib cage.
In some Mastiffs there can be a layer of fat that can mask as muscle, therefore my use of the term....true muscle!
The flank should be deeply set and not look carved out, as though the dog lacks sufficient mass coming down off of the lumbar area.

I would like to see a picture of this.  What does that mean the "flank should be deeply set" ?  What does a "carved out" flank look like ?

If one is familiar with the Moby Dick photo from M. Moore's book, it explains the concept, especially if compared to another photo I've posted of Little's Atlas of Massalane, who needed more depth & breadth in flank.

Forechests must not protrude too far, or look pigeon breasted,

Yes, basic canine anatomy. 

 
 as a solid front is a well muscled observable structure, free of excessive fat, skin, or hollowed breastbone, with mass to solidify & support this impact zone.

I don't know what this means. Are we still speaking of the fore-chest ? Have we moved on to the front ? What "impact zone" ? The fore-chest ? Is that what is considered the major role of the fore-chest ? Front bumper ? Really ? Is that the major role of the prosternum and associated muscles ? The Mastiff, if viewed as a guard & protector, will use it's forward impact zone (forechest) to plow into an opponent, be it man, or beast. If this structure is extended beyond a reasonable point (e.g. pigeon breasted) weakness, or vulnerability in that area is formed. The aesthetic is also affected by a protruding forechest, which at times is also just a loose body of fat, instead of muscle. In profile, a forechest that extends beyond the shoulder point is deemed attractive and many have bred to develop a prominent forechest, the challenge is to limit the degree of this extended chest & how it is formed. A cathedral front has no protective fill, so the forechest  does indeed serve as a bumper of sorts. Shoulder angle can enhance, or detract from a forechest, but that is a separate matter.

Muscles must be apparent throughout the structure, which requires relatively tight skin, to enable true definition of same to emerge.

"tight skin" is a personal preference.  I am not a huge fan of the "boxer" skin and coat on the mastiff.  The mastiff is NOT "poured" into his skin as is the doberman.
Standard: "
The Mastiff is a large, massive, symmetrical dog with a well-knit frame. The impression is one of grandeur and dignity. "
Not sleek.
Standard: "Outer coat straight, coarse, and of moderately short length. "
 
I am an advocate of fineness of the same,... Wynn's words, not mine!
Neck is to be moderately dry (not showing an excess of loose skin) Wrinkle only upon attention (amended recently) So if one extrapolates the general condition of skin looseness, or tightness, from other stated elements within both standard's, we can get an idea that it is damn near impossible to have muscles well defined visually (although it does not specifically state the visual expression, so one must assume it is part of the visual aesthetic), if skin is so loose as to inhibit the expession of same. If you reference the photo of the Neo provided above, you can see how loose skin will interfere with muscle definition from a visual perspective.
 


Excessive skin & laxity, inhibits this aesthetic and softens the look.

Aesthetic ? This is a personal aesthetic. Certainly the personal dislike of looser skin is clear, however personal dislike does not make it incorrect.  Grandeur and dignity are the impression required by the standard, not "hard", "rigid" or "unyielding".  The actual wording used to be.....Large, massive, powerful, symmetrical and well knit frame!  Once again, the standard & history of the standard, must be viewed in it's entirety, in order to achieve a relative understanding of the traditional expectation. As a guard, the Mastiff must be viewed as a powerful intimidating breed, which must demonstrate that potential not just by size, but by physicality & muscle tone. This is diminished if the body contour is smooth, without definition, or too loose in general appearance

Wrinkle is site specific and does not mean that it must invade other areas of the body, which will create unwanted folds & dewlap, above & beyond what the standard states as correct, or ideal.

Standard:
"Neck moderately "dry" (not showing an excess of loose skin)"

Connective tissue throughout the form must be tight and if properly conditioned, will still allow for free extension upon movement.

"Tight" "connective tissue" ?  What does that mean ? I do not believe it actually means the
Epimysium, Perimysium and Endomysium must be shorter rather than longer, I think it is an attempt to say the dog must be in good shape and have good structure. If that is not the case, I would love to hear exactly what this means. See collagen above!

It's not enough for a Mastiff to appear as though it were well packaged, it must be genuine!

yes.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #37 

 
Just to display the hollowed flank that I mentioned.......this can be observed in this fluff, then compare with the center photo of Moby Dick below............

Perhaps a better understanding of what I was attempting to express can be seen by the visuals.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #38 
Many of the following can be applied to our breed as well!.............
 

Rottweiler Bones, Muscle, Power

By Steve Wolfson

Pictures added into by West Coast Rottweilers/Bob Flynn

Notes added in bold type by West Coast Rottweilers/Bob Flynn and is not Steve Wolfsons opinion(s)

"This is what all Rottweiler Breeders should strive to make."

Rottweiler Judge Joe Hedl mid ring talking about WCR's Athena vd Tal at the ARV Nationals 2007

ARV Nationals Critique by Judge Joe Hedl

10 month old female, very well built; good bone and substance; good confidence calm and friendly; beautiful pronounced breed type feminine head with medium size ears; good stop, deep set dark brown eyes; beautiful short full muzzle; straight front legs with very good tight feet; very good depth and width of chest; good muzzle; sufficient front and rear angulation; good top and bottom line with medium croup; good short coat with very good markings; good fluid movement with scissor bit. Rating VP1

If one were to take a survey asking, “Why did you purchase a Rottweiler”, “Why this breed over others”, it would certainly elicit intriguing answers. I cannot say for sure what the attraction others had to the Rottweiler when first encountered, however for me, it was his raw masculine appeal, his unique head and the impressive musculature and power he exuded. From his appearance, one could easily understand that this was a serious dog! Not alone in this view, many other Rottweiler aficionados have recognized this hallmark of the breed and expressed a similar perspective as well. After all, is not the “look” of a dog that makes the first and lasting impression? Surely, his breed type is what makes the Rottweiler unique.

rottweiler dog breeders

(Real Rottweiler Type, our Petra Earl Antonius)

The Germans understood the Rottweilers distinction when they came together to codify the standard at Heidelburg, Germany in 1907. They were deliberate when articulating and fixing the appearance of the Rottweiler, which is why the standard uses detailed language in its description of this essential aspect of breed type. The standard was modified since 1907, but the general appearance of the Rottweiler has not. Reading the current standard, one finds the word “powerful” written 6 times, “bone” mentioned 3 times and “muscle” mentioned 5 times. No other words have such repetition when describing the details.

Excerpts from the Rottweiler Standard

“The ideal Rottweiler is a medium large, robust and powerful dog - Dogs are characteristically more massive throughout with larger frame and heavier bone than bitches - His bone and muscle mass must be sufficient to balance his frame, giving a compact and very powerful appearance - Neck- Powerful, well muscled - Loin is short, deep and well muscled - Legs are strongly developed with straight, heavy bone - Upper thigh is fairly long, very broad and well muscled - Lower thigh is long, broad and powerful, with extensive muscling - His movement should be balanced, harmonious, sure, powerful and unhindered, with strong forereach and a powerful rear drive”

Despite his distinctive breed type and the words used in the blueprint to describe it, a negative, subtle change has occurred over the years, which ultimately is disastrous to his appearance.

Currently in the US, which is observable both in the show-ring and out, is a great loss in the general power of the breed’s masculine design. Now, a rarity and oddity, the once major factor in the breed’s appeal, its power and substance, is on the “back burner” in many breeding programs. One must look carefully to find this trait; the breed has lost its distinction.

WCR's Note: The difference between Europe Rottweilers and the U.S. AKC Rottweiler Arena is very obvious. The tailed Rottweiler is basically disallowed to compete in the AKC Show Arena, but can compete in the Canadian Rottweiler Show Arena, why is this? I am of the opinion that the AKC Show Arena does not want to compete against the European bred Rotts, because the difference is too obvious. If one feels that they are making a quality of Rott that is comparable or better than their European counterparts, then why hide behind the "because Rottweilers are not supposed to have a tail" issue. My opinion.

rottweiler puppy

(One of the most incredible Rottweiler males ever Ghemon)

On the street, we encounter Rottweilers that are a poor representation of once was. They possess pin heads, narrow, snipey muzzles, spindly bones, no muscle mass and shallow frames. To the knowledgeable, these Rottweilers appear to be a mix breeding, although they are not. To the unknowledgeable, they appear to be correct!

In the show-ring, this problem has crossed the boundaries. One should expect poor examples of the breed on the street since they are comprised of non-show dogs. However, the show-ring should be the exception. Presently, exhibits share the same problem of their street cousins and are only a notch or two above. Many exhibits that enter the show-ring are constructed well but are also as weak in substance, spindly in bones and musculature like their pet counterparts. Now, when a dog or bitch that is in the ring with correct breed type, exuding power and substance, it appears as the “odd man out”. A strong masculine dog or powerful bitch seems strange among exhibits with spindly frail bodies and Doberman-like heads. To the newbie's and unknowledgeable judges, it is untypical and put at the end of the line. Often, I have heard that a female, which possesses strong bones, muscle and a powerful head, is now deemed “too strong” and considered a “doggy bitch”. What was once correct and typical is now abnormal. The dogs, which should embody power and masculinity, are now so weak in type they can be considered “beautiful females”!

rottweilers

(A very typical West Coast Rottweilers pup at 6 weeks of age, it all starts with an excellent pup and this is a perfect example of perfection)

WCR's Note: Powerful, well bred, heavy boned Rotts have been given the "odd man out" treatment in the AKC ring since the late 80's, this I know personally. The problem is that a very well made Rottweiler looks like nothing else that is currently being shown, hence the perception of being "over done" or "too masculine" when in fact is what the bred is supposed to be per the Standard. Frustrating.

rott puppies

(Exceptional Type in a 10 month old Bitch, WCR's Athena vd Tal )

WHAT ARE CORRECT BONES AND MUSCLES?

The standard does not give a numerical value for the appropriate bone mass or muscle, only a verbal guide. Therefore, to state a formula, “Dog x must have y amount of bone and muscle to be correct is not possible.” To understand what is appropriate for the correct amount for these attributes, one must refer to the blueprint. From the standard: “His bone and muscle mass must be sufficient to balance his frame, giving a compact and very powerful appearance.”

A reasonable guide when assessing an exhibit, one should ask, “Does this exhibit exemplify a powerful appearance?” - “Is the bone and muscle mass substantial, so that its appearance exudes power?” One should be impressed with the overall appearance for power, muscle and bones.

rottweiler breeders

(This is 14 month old female MiMi, show me a male from other kennels in the USA like my girl here)

A. BONE MASS

Bones mass should be thick enough in width so that it appears to support the frame of the dog in a substantial and powerful manner, without being refined, elegant, too massive or grotesque.

The place to visually assess the bone mass on a Rottweiler, correct or incorrect, is the thickness in the radius/ ulna and humerus. When making an evaluation, the dog is presented “head on” so that the full width of the chest
(from East to West) can be seen. If a numerical evaluation for the thickness of the bones is desired, it is measured by using a tape measure and wrapping it around the circumference of the pastern (see Fig.1). Here is where the least amount of skin, muscle and tendon can be found.

Correct bone mass is correlated to the height. The taller the dog, the more bone mass it should possess, compared to dogs of lesser height. Additionally, bone mass should always be proportion-ate and balanced to the frame of the dog.

“Out of balance” is not correct. Good examples of this are the extremes. They are exhibited when a tall dog possess long, fine bones of the radius/ulna and humerus, giving the appearance of spindles, or when a short dog possesses too strong bone mass appearing like “tree trunks”. These dogs are “out of balance”. The Rottweiler is not a St. Bernard or a Doberman.

rottweiler puppies

(Powerful, muscled, broad, huge head piece of West Coast Rottweiler Diego vd Tal at 10 months of age )

B. MUSCLE MASS

In the front assembly, the muscles of the shoulders, the upper arm and forearm should be well developed and obvious. These muscle groups are the Deltoids, Bi-cps, Triceps and the Extensor muscles of the radius/ulna. In the rear assembly, the muscles of the Gluteus and Biceps Femurous should be well developed and defined. Viewing the rear muscles from the back, the depth and width of the Biceps Femurous and Gluteus should be full, supporting the Femur.The general muscle mass should be substantial, well defined and in proportion to the frame of the dog so that it exudes strength, masculinity and athleticism. The muscles should be apparent, yet not overpowering, like the Bull and Pit Bull Terriers. The muscle groups that comprise this “appearance” are the muscles of the front and rear assembly. Here is where all forward locomotion begins.

rottie puppies

(Powerful body, strong bones, powerful chest and head piece at 10 months WCR's Dallas vd Tal)

C. THE CORRELATION OF MUSCLE AND BONE

With human body-building, the muscles can be developed, shaped and improved, with discipline, hard work, good nutrition and much sweat. However, improvement has limits, since body-building is dependent upon the size, mass of the muscle groups and bone substance. In essence, “you are what you inherited”. The thin framed, fine boned man or woman will always work harder and strain longer to build bulk and definition in the muscle tissue. With this body type, a major factor is bone mass! Strong bone mass is supported by thick muscles. The same principles hold true for the Rottweiler.

Dogs and bitches that are fine boned possess muscles, which are light in their mass and often show little or no definition. This type, will always work very hard to make strides improving and developing what it inherited from the pedigree. Conversely, there are those dogs/bitches, which impress us with their natural well developed musculature and powerful bone mass. Their musculature is correlated to their robust bone mass.

WCR's Note: This goes back to what we have saying for decades: "You cannot make mediocre stock into great stock, the genetics are flawed and will always be flawed. Buy the best, breed to the best, and never cheat yourself from trying your hardest. It takes a lot of time, effort, money and resources to achieve this goal, but the rewards of making TRUE Rottweilers is worth it. Be part of the solution, not the problem."

rottie puppy

(Real Rottweiler Bone, Muscle and Type our Naja Earl Antonius)

BREED TYPE IS A STEPCHILD

Why is the great majority of Rottweilers here in the states, (especially in the show-ring), not uniformly masculine in type with powerful muscle and bones, which is specified in the standard? Why have they become slight in bone, shallow in substance, and soft in appearance? The answer is breed type has become a stepchild.

WCR's Note: Why? Because Rottweiler Breeders are unwilling to look outside of their own backyards to breed to high quality. It costs 4x as much to go to Europe to breed, plus the risk of damage or death to the bitch, plus the risk of stress to the bitch and the loss of the litter. All too often I hear, "but it costs so much more to breed outside of the country." When you put a dollar value on your breeding program, then just quite and do the breed a favor; quality is PRICELESS. Laziness, ignorance and the quick buck is my opinion on this matter.

In the US, the accent is on the best possible construction demonstrated by superior gait. Those dogs, which becomes problematic. It is good since all concerned breeders have this as one of their goals in mind when planning their next litter. Sound construction, in accordance with the breed standard is essential. All exhibitors want to win in the show-ring; therefore, many breeders make superior gait their only goal. With this as their prime directive, many breeders have made a detrimental detour; they traded breed type for locomotion. This is problematic.

rottweilers puppies

(A true Rottweiler Breeder uses all available resources from ALL OVER THE WORLD, this pup shows why at 6 weeks)

Often, at ringside, one can hear spectators and breeders alike say, “Oh that dog moved beautifully with great reach and drive”, “It was well put together.” Yes, that could be said however, the dog looked more like a Doberman than a Rottweiler. Excellent construction with outstanding gait is not breed type. These two display this attribute, are the ones that win in the show-ring. Placing the accent on this attribute is both good and attributes are separate entities in a breeding program and are not mutually interchangeable or should be misconstrued for breed type.

puppies rottweiler

(Just because you want movement does not mean you cannot have REAL ROTTWEILER TYPE ALSO! We make the total Rott)

Over the years, the masculinity of the Rottweiler here in the states, has slowly eroded. Its masculine power and substance, clearly specified in the standard, has been oozing away. Spindly, fine bones with narrow long muzzles and smooth body lines have replaced broad top skulls, wide, short muzzles and powerful bones and muscles. Working character has also eroded and replaced with many Rottweilers that are shy and lack confidence in their temperament. This is a negative and detrimental trend.

WCR's Note: The Rottweilers in today's show rings are not what they where even 10 years ago. The unwillingness to learn, the unwillingness to go outside of their backyards or the AKC to find the most suitable male, the unwillingness to truly strive to progress or at least maintain the Rottweiler is becoming epidemic, in my opinion.

california rottweilers

(The incredible, beautiful, correct and powerful head piece at 14 months of WCR's Athena vd Tal)

Once set in motion, it is extremely difficult to reverse. One only has to see our European and International counterparts by comparison to understand the differences in breed type and working temperament. In the international community, the accent is placed on breed type and working temperament.

WCR's Note: We have recognized this long ago, West Coast Rottweilers breeds only to the finest males in or from Europe, the only exception was Cidel's Hogan Hero whom is an incredible male with powerful type and temperament. In today's AKC arena, Rotts that have big, strong drive are now deemed "aggressive," where in the European community a dog without drive is deemed "worthless and unshowable." The breed is a "Working Breed."

Some would argue there is nothing to improve. All is well within the Rottweiler and breed type is where it should be. That is a myopic view. It is valuable and healthy for all concerned to step “out of the trenches” and obtain an international perspective by making comparisons with our domestic breeding program and our international counterparts. Exchanging ideas and methods to improve genetics and techniques will benefit all. Additionally, it is extremely important to promote and make available more breed seminars in all Rottweiler clubs. There, is where real progress is achievable in an open dialog exchanging opinions and ideas. The benefactor of this is the Rottweiler.

WCR's Note: The above paragraph is so very true, everything is not ok in the AKC ring, in fact it is very far from ok. Weak to no temperament, light bone, pin heads, light eyes, pink mouths, flat sided is all the norm. Movement reigns supreme for them and that is a huge mistake, the total Rottweiler reigns supreme, not a black and mahogany Whippet.

"West Coast Rottweilers is HEAVILY COMMITTED to the preservation of the Rottweiler as it was intended. Using only the finest males in the world to our outstanding females, we will settle for nothing less than to exceed the Standards of the breed; we have proven that over and over." -Bob Flynn/West Coast Rottweilers

Steve Wolfson sits on the board of the American Rottweiler Club (ARC) and is actively judging, lecturing and writing articles on Rottweilers

The above comments are solely that of West Coast Rottweilers/Bob Flynn

References
Fiftieth Anniversary of the Allgemeiner Deutscher Rottweiler Klub, Powderhorn Press, 1978
American Rottweiler Club Standard, May 1990
Dog Anatomy-Illustrated, Way Robert VMD, MS Dreenan Press 1974
Der Rottweiler, Korn Hans 1939


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 25,159
Reply with quote  #39 

I might add, that muscles well defined (UK) has been amended to read....

Muscles sharply defined.
 
This is important, in that a sharply defined muscle cannot be had, if the skin is too lax, or too fat ladened, which will mute, or soften muscle definition. So either the revision was worded incorrectly, or skin tension must be such & constructed in a way, that will enable good muscle definition to be readily observed in the dog. 
 
Well defined can imply a large muscle, but sharply defined, places emphasis on the quality & definition of the aesthetic. This may be due in part, to the health related concerns we are readily becoming familiar with, as a sharp muscle will tend to contain less fat tissue, or be more conditioned, than a larger well defined muscle.
 
In either scenario, tighter skin is necessary to observe sharp contours compared to larger muscle groups, which may still be observable in looser skin.
 
But once again, subjective speculation being used my this poster, in order to validate the reasoning behind the word changes. It would be nice and historically informative, if we could get the reasoning directly from the horses mouth, so to speak, and fully understand the thought process that led to this change. Don't hold your collective breaths! 

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 25,159
Reply with quote  #40 
used by this poster.....typo
__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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