This Forum is brought to you by The Mastiff Sweet Spot and Friends of the Forum.
Sign up Calendar
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 7 of 12     «   Prev   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   Next   »
janice

Registered:
Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #301 

OH, and I also forgot, I do not know of anyone who has ever bred, mated, a pied mastiff, produced pieds, but never actually bred a pied, as someone stated. Though I was informed by the geneticists that they would probably throw "normal" if put to a non carrying line. Truly amazing.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #302 

Go to manage attachments--click on it--then you push Browse and it will search for your photo--then click on the name of the photo and it will bring it up and then you push upload and then push post.  It must have a word or . (dot) in the message to post.  Try it! or email me and I will post the attachment for you--I give you the power so use it!-LOL

janice

Registered:
Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #303 

You are a mighty woman! Thank you. I'll give it a go, on Sunday, i have to go to bed, got to go be at work in 6 hours, I only got home 2 hours ago, try to get some sleep, oh, and also I'm going to go to the doctors next week, try to recieve a shot, something to unaddict me from this forum, it really is very addictive.

Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #304 


 And do you know the best thing Jan ?? You can post a photo and it comes up as a pedigree. Isn't that amazing ?? Although i am STILL looking for that one. But the "queen" said peter put it up and we know she doesn't lie, SO WHERE IS IT ?  Funny how some people "see" things or "know" things that are all in the mind. And i'm only talking about the Simple things ....... scarey!

Thinking about it ..... maybe it IS the simple things that are the hardest


__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #305 
Karen a reading test just for you! I should have had a bracket around ( Peter posted..or some such!) NOT the pedigree! I was to look at my grandson's Doser's pedigree ! Though I'd like to know just WHICH dog appears in his background TWICE?! lololol

mind jumble...
Can you read this?

Only smart people can....

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deoesn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat  ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be e taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter byistlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?
Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
If you can raed tihs fdoawrd it!!
Amasha Caffyn, Ba( Qld Uni) Dip T, Cet T.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #306 

 You might want to look into the pedigree of the pied litter that Jan bred !

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #307 

 Your way too smart for me, guess that is why i don't have Dip shiT  after my name..... oh hang on i might not have seen that right


__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #308 
"You're way too smart for me,"  I guess that's why I  HAVE " Dip Shit" after my  name. " Oh hang on, I might have not seen it right."  Karen,
it'a all in the reading and punctuation! Have a lovely night. Amasha,
I have B.A. Dip T, Cert T after mine....but who cares at the end of the day ?!

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #309 
If you want to talk about getting things right Amasha, his name was DOZER, not DOSER, thank you. 
Janine. Dip. A.T., Cert L.T., T.A. G2.
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #310 
 Karen wrote...
"You might want to look into the pedigree of the pied litter that Jan bred !"

and Dozer's pedigree, and the pedigree this time, (not pics, Karen!)  of the other lovely pieds recently produced whose pics Pete posted and there MUST surely be other 'surprises' up you 2, Janine & Jan Jibb's sleeve!....  

We can most definitely look at my present pups' pedigree

OOOOOHHHHH 10 times Hunzeal just on the first page!!!!!!!! We share the SAME vet...so verification is SIMPLE! Just got my scanner going. I am HAPPY to ' reveal all ' & post my present pedigree...lololol.

I'd LOVE to learn about all the DOUBLE UPS behind these Pieds! Just WHERE does this gene indeed come from?  WHAT combo does it NEED to manifest?

 So far, ..I heard all about my 'attributes' ( if you only knew 1/2 of them!) through your somewhat hazy, tunnel  vision, now I'd like to get to the bottom of all this. Let this crap be at least worth while for ALL our benefit, in the context of our beloved breed.

Persistent Pete and Karen,
Indeed, LET'S do it, right here in public maybe we'd all LEARN something as I was SO excited to come in on the "Pieds' as it was a baffling topic to me & was genuinely wanting to LEARN its manifestation as it is obviously behind several lines world wide, just needs SPECIAL combinations to manifest.
In my experience I believe 3 combos are necessary...defies genetics, I know...
In the ' said' litter, the Dam TOTALLY removed from Hunzeal, came from a line of an English import which used on a different bitch gave what appeared to be a 'colour variation.' in one of the pups...NO, NOT pied...I always felt that had to be the
'missing link' to the equation...'
Don't be shy, with all these prominent Oz breeders behind you, lololol, this should be an easy task. We may get to Revelation befor the thread finalizes.
I'd certainly like CLOSURE, and a heartfelt APOLOGY from the 4 of you! Cheers, Amasha. 

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #311 

 What anyone else has to say is their own opinion. They are not on any payroll or a promise of something if they speak out. They do have minds of their own. I only know of one person that appeared to be brainwashed. You seemed to be interested in pedigree's, i mention Jan, you freak.
Does that mean you have given permission to everyone to question your vet?
 As for an apology

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #312 
 "you freak" Karen, Have you been looking at your own reflrection, again? You nawty gurrll!
" Empty vessels make the loudest sound." A.

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #313 
Quote:
Empty vessels make the loudest sound." A.


I can HEAR you alright, LOUD and clear.

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
hunzeal

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 190
Reply with quote  #314 
So you hear your own echo? Good on ya....impressed! You were a bit listless of late. I am delighted you have recovered.

Now present EVIDENCE! Pedigrees?! WHERE are the ' double ups??" I am sure your 'buddies NOT'! whose pups' PICTURES ( NOTE Karen, PICTURES!)persistent Pete so kindly posted have given you permission to post pics as well as pedigrees!!! WHERE are they?? I want to KNOW just how I fit into their picture???? Woo hoo the 'Mother of ALL pieds' wants to see evidence! HOW did I get here???? I'd like to become a specialist, evidently I need your help! I am somewhat LOST...10 Hunzeals on the same page of 4 pedigrees & NO pieds?
Sorry some sincere folk World Wide, this IS tacky....but that's how it is amongst the HANDFUL of ' successful ' breeders & their unsuccessful breeder friends in Oz. Amasha.
P.S. I keep hoping someone WILL say that they have had ENOUGH! We've done SO LITTLE n pieds...and so much on personal crap!

__________________
hunzeal
http://www.hunzeal.com
Life is a melodrama!
janice

Registered:
Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #315 

I cannot believe that I could actually understand what I was reading, The phenomenal power of the human mind, according to research at Cambridge University, It doesn't matter in what order the letters in a word are, the only important thing is that the first and last letter be in the right place. The rest can be a total mess and you can still read it without a problem. This is because the human mind does not read every letter by itself, But the word as a whole, Amazing, HUH? Yeah and I always thought spelling was important, If you can read this forward it.     Considered it forwarded.

Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #316 
Did you breed a litter with Pieds in it??  That is Evidence in my book!
YOU are the one calling yourself the mother of all pieds, no one else has called you that. I assume your lines are still based on the same ones that produced the pieds. Personally i don't give a rats arse where the pieds came from. Although you did give the impression to me that you were saying your pieds might have come from the US line, not of your choice.?
Remember it was you who jumped up to almost proudly state that you had  bred a litter with pieds in it and euthanized them. NOT ME.

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #317 
Quote:
Sorry some sincere folk World Wide, this IS tacky....but that's how it is amongst the HANDFUL of ' successful ' breeders & their unsuccessful breeder friends in Oz. Amasha.
Nothing on here has got anything to do with successful or unsuccessful breeders. It is more about someone who thinks it can do no wrong, and everyone else doing wrong.


Did you send your male to the USA???

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
janice

Registered:
Posts: 70
Reply with quote  #318 

I wish people would not rush in. Please quote me correctly, I never laid blame on any kennel, any child would know it takes a blend of all influencing factors, and a blend of all bloodlines, and my comment was also, the pied colour could easily be changed, I meant the colour producing, not the genes themselves, that evidently you cannot change in any way or form. I am sorry that every word, I will have to explain so as no other way can be taken of misunderstanding of what I say. I was not planning on putting up pedigrees, I was planning on using call names and photos of the dogs, to me this would have been kinder. I was and am still not out to "get anyone", in my experience with my pieds it was a common daughter to father mating, and it appeared, I know others were breeding with that line, and they did not produce any till later down the track, as are all now producing it, do you see why you cannot elim, shit! I've forgotten how to spell eliminate, it. What I said were carriers, of which a lot of lines are, so what, colours combining, gee whiz, lots of factors. I saw with a friend of mine here, about what, maybe 5 years ago another pied from Tassie at Mcgregor here in Brisbane, she was approx. 5 or 6 years old at that time, she was quite plain, no offence intended, ordinary bones, ordinary weight, height, lovely looking and lovely temperment, it's the bloodlines that connect or do not, in some of these dogs. Now I don't know what the problem is, sharing a story with some pieds I have bred, ME, not anyone else, I putting the lines together, not anyone else, no one calling anyone else names, Yes, I know it's all about me, sorry.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #319 
In America we know that Linda's Sam has thrown pied, Carl's girl has thrown them, with whom they were bred I am not sure.  Also Pax River Dozer threw them.  I believe there are 2 more dogs that have here in US--one going back to England.  I am sure there were more, but just do not know them.

It is important to know who they were bred to, since it is recessive and it takes 2.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #320 
It would seem if all the peds are correct-- that the pied gene in America go back to this dog


Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: MOJO_pedigree_(2).jpg, Views: 2030, Size: 77.36 KB 

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,882
Reply with quote  #321 

Just curious, but how did you cut & paste from Devine. I've had a problem trying that.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #322 

How many times must I remind you I am mysterious?



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #323 

Now Now Australia, Steve was impressed with my Mo Jo Magic, are you ?  Any one checking their pedigree yet?  Come on fess up where is the gene down under coming from?  What is the main dog in which you see it?

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,882
Reply with quote  #324 

In other words, it was sent to you!...LOL


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #325 

Quote:

Now Now Australia, Steve was impressed with my Mo Jo Magic, are you ?  Any one checking their pedigree yet?  Come on fess up where is the gene down under coming from?  What is the main dog in which you see it?


 

We have wallon in our 3 imports. We have produced a couple of pups with white toes and we have had white on chests. Which is more noticeable on Apricots, of course. The "Queen" used to issue prospective puppy buyer's with public service warning,  Don't buy a pup from Docherty's, they will produce white ,or something to that effect. You  have "Lion" in your pedigree he is responsible for all the white. A few white toes and chests was the most white we have produced ....................   thus far.
 And thinking back , we had no more white on our pups than did hers.

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #326 

Lion did carry white from his chin to his penis and on all of his feet, but by correct breeding the white can be taken care of.  I never saw a pied come from that, and I have inbred on Lion and Wallon for years.  Yes you need to go to dominate black pigment to cut white.

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,882
Reply with quote  #327 

Are you saying that black will eliminate white?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #328 
I believe if you read I said:

Yes you need to go to dominate black pigment to cut white.



Cut is not eliminate, however you will not see it over many generations of using a dominate black pigmented dogs--or just here and there.
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #329 

We have never had a problem with lack of pigment."woody" our singleton 2 year old  could have blacker ears though. The white produced was minimal in our opinion compared to the "prophet of doom and gloom."  Our girl "reebox" had all white front toes, hence her name. She went on to become Aust Ch Mastdoch Got My Reebox. I did notice though, the older she got the white was not as white anymore.And NEVER was anything put on her white to try and change the colour.


__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,882
Reply with quote  #330 
How does ear & mask pigment affect white on the chest?

There are dogs with poor mask & ear pigment with no white showing, so the two do not appear to be connected.

Typically if you want to reduce white, you use dogs which don't have any white.

Breeding type to type encompasses all traits, including color and reducing unwanted traits, means going to dogs that compliment the traits that you are looking to remove, or reduce.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #331 
Quote:
believe if you read I said:

Yes you need to go to dominate black pigment to cut white.

 

 My reply was only to comment on the above.

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #332 

I find Dozer fascinating because of the all over white and then patches of Brindle--Even for a Pied isn't that unusual?

Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #333 
  

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #334 

I am very happy with my Wallon and Lion--it is Mo Jo that the pied goes back to--where Mo Jo got it is still a mystery.  Now if your pieds goes in a certain direction and have some of the similar dogs in their pedigree, there may be a link.  Say brothers or sisters to certain dogs in the pedigree I showed. 

Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #335 
Deb,
My computer is on super go slow mode, just got home from work and feel like throwing it through the damn window at the moment.  I will attempt to scan Dozer's pedigree and send it to you and if you would, could you post if for me? 

Amasha,
I am going to type this really slowly for you, hopefully that will help you get it into your head.
What have I said to apologise for?  I have said good things about your dogs for instance, have said you have a great knowledge and can be helpful, have said your wins are set in concrete etc.  These are facts.  I have also said you are vicious and vindictive and I dont like you.  I will not apologise for that at all at any time because they are also facts.
You keep on trying to "get" those people from Vic who euthed THEIR 2.7y.o. bitch, my goodness, they must be such bad people.  They bred Dozer too, yet he was not hidden or euthed, gosh, they put him on the front page of the newsletter and even on their web site.  They dont just put their dogs down for no reason and you know it.  They love their dogs and none come with use by dates.  Send it back to you, lets see, take it from a home atmosphere to a kennel one, go from being "an only child" to one of the mob, go from being owned by them to owned by you.  I know what I would prefer.  And there were other contributing factors to the decision, but as she was not my bitch it is not for me to discuss.
You think you are queen of the pieds, now, who said that, no one except you, bit of paranoia setting in there me thinks.
Janine. 

Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #336 
The colour fascinated me as well, every day when I looked at him he was getting more and more dapple coming through, I was hoping they would all join up one day and he would be brindle lol.  Another thing with his colour was his skin, it was so pink, luckily he was not one for sunbaking on his back and had the darkness on the ears and nose.  I have not had a look at the pedigree posted yet, every time I try and change pages at the moment I lose the server.
Janine.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #337 

Mastdoch

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 166
Reply with quote  #338 
Quote:
You think you are queen of the pieds, now, who said that, no one except you, bit of paranoia setting in there me thinks.
Janine.  

 Janine i was going to say the exact same thing only i couldn't spell Paranoia

__________________
Karen
at Mastdoch Mastiffs, in Oz.


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #339 

White Coat Color in Dogs

Describes different genetic bases for white coloration, with photographs.
homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #340 

News of french bulldog kennel ZonMiracl. Cute dogs and puppies for ...

BEAUBEAU DE LA PARURE - Ex1, CC in Open Class (pied color) ... 11/28/2004 Our Beau Beau De La Parure became Best Male (pied color) and Best of Breed at Orel ...
http://www.zonmiracl.ru/news_2004.htm - 65k - Cached - Similar pages

French bulldog kennel Zon Miracl. Best french bulldogs and puppies

CH ZON MIRACL KAY SNOW KAIZER champion of National Club class - Ex1, CW, candidate to Club Champion, Best male of pied color, Club Winner! ...
http://www.zonmiracl.ru/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
[
More results from http://www.zonmiracl.ru ]

pied: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

[Middle English, from pie , magpie. See pie .] pied v. ... pied. A coat color in dogs that consists of uneven patches or spots of color on a white or cream ...
http://www.answers.com/topic/pied - 69k - Cached - Similar pages

Message Board - White color gene?

I know everybody says the color comes from the outcross blood, but from where? ... pied genes Abernathy's molly Chinaman's dame is off 2 white pied dogs ...
hawgdawgs.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1168533673 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

French Bulldog Puppies for Sale, Dogs for Sale, Dog Breeders.

... breeders with French Bulldog puppies for sale and French Bulldog dogs for adoption. ... Color:, pied-fawn. Sex:, Male. Age:, 46 weeks. Price:, $ 1000 ...
http://www.i-kennel.com/findpuppy/?nm=list&b1=breed&b2=72&b3=1&b5=45&b6=1&k=&i=PLgSl... - 58k - Cached - Similar pages

Color & Pattern Disorders

Obviously the use of pieds, who cannot contribute to either proper pattern in harls .... The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs. New York: Howell Book House. ...
http://www.sunstrike-great-danes.com/health-color&disease.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #341 

 

LBA Standards

Fawn, red or black; solid color or pied. Disqualifications: Blue (Neapolitan Mastiff color), as well as black with rust or mahogany (Rottweiler colors) ...
http://www.leavittbulldogassociation.com/Standard.htm - 44k - Cached - Similar pages

Color

Apricot Used to describe Afghans, Pugs, Mastiffs, and Poodles, this color .... Pied Patches of white and another color. Color definitions may vary by breed. ...
http://www.chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/color.htm - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

Mastiff Coat Color

Let's look at what is known about the coat colour genes in Mastiffs. .... the general description of Mastiffs were often pied or even predominantly white. ...
http://www.gwenstone.com/coat_color.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

Molosserworld's Mastiff Page

Even pied dogs was known, like the one illustrated above. All black Mastiffs were not .... Wastiff -- a quadrupedial pissing ground · Mastiff Coat Colour ...
http://www.moloss.com/breeds/mn/m002/ - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Group 2/2.2 & 2/3: Mountain & Swiss

TIBETAN MASTIFF Section 3, Swiss Mountain and Cattledogs ... Color varieties include grey, fawn, tan, pied, brindle and white. Brown is not allowed by the ...
http://www.doginfomat.com/2-2_3mountswiss.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

 



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #342 

Mastiff Coat Colour

 

Mastiffs have a range of colours more restricted than that found in many other breeds. Nevertheless, Mastiffs of unusual colouring sometimes turn up in the breed ring. On the one hand, there is a detailed listing of colours in the standard, but, on the other hand, there is no disqualification based on colour, so the judge may be in a quandary about whether (or how much) to penalize such a Mastiff. Similarly a breeder may be in doubt whether to use an otherwise outstanding animal with a distinct colour fault. To add to the problem, colour always has an element of interpretation; for example, some judges might consider a coat of Irish Setter-red'' a form of apricot, and others might not. Nevertheless, the colour of each individual has an unambiguous genetic code, if we are able to read it.

Very little has been published on the genetic background of the coat colours appearing in Mastiffs, so l thought a review of the current state of understanding of dog colour inheritance, applied to Mastiffs, might be in order to give the judge, the ringside observer, and the breeder or owner at home some insight about how what you don't see may affect what you get.

The bulk of the knowledge of the genetic basis of coat colour in dogs was provided by Clarence C. Little, Sc.D., who for 25 years worked in, and later owned, the 20 -100 dog private kennel founded by his father, and who for 16 years did experiments in breeding for coat colour at the Jackson Laboratory, with their stock of 200-220 dogs of 28 breeds, producing over 4100 puppies. He published Tbe Inheritance of Coat Colour in Dogs in 1957. I will be following Dr. Little, and supplementing it with the more recent information provided by Roy Robinson, F. 1. Biol. in Genetics for Dog Breeders (2nd ed.), 1990.

 

First I will give a brief summary of the mechanics of inheritance. I'm sorry to bore those who know this very well or who have no interest in it, but bear with me for a moment and I will try to avoid technical jargon as much as possible.

Within all the cells of nearly even living thing are strands, known as chromosomes, of a material called DNA, consisting of sequences of four chemicals. Each individual has just one set of sequences out of the almost limitless number of possibilities. The vast majority are required just to say "I am a cactus" or "I am a dung beetle'' or "I am a dog'' and the rest fill in the details of which cactus or dung beetle or dog the specimen actually is. The

chromosomes are arranged in pairs, and except for the fine details, the two members of a pair have the same structure. Along each of the pair are corresponding stretches called loci, and the specific arrangement of the chemicals occupying any locus is called a gene. The members of the set of genes that could possibly occupy a specific locus are called alleles of each other. In effect they are members of a gene family. Each locus of each chromosome relates to some structure or function of the creature, and, since they are paired, there is an another locus on the other member of the pair relating to the same thing.

From time to time I will indicate a pair of genes at corresponding loci by putting the symbols for the genes together, for instance q1 q1 would mean that each loci contained gene q1. What happens if the paired loci contain different alleles (perhaps q1 q2), each telling the creature to have different characteristics? Well, either there is a combined effect, or one allele is dominant over the other and determines that characteristic on its own. The other Allele, said to be recessive, has no visible effect on the animal or plant in question, but could have an effect on its offspring.

The reason for the pairing becomes clear when sex cells are produced, because they get only one member of each chromosome pair, so when they combine with a sex cell from another specimen, the resulting offspring has a new combination of gene pairs (say q2q3). The result is that at any given locus, an allele which formerly was the recessive member of a pair may now have a partner it is dominant over. Therefore characteristics may appear in the offspring that were not apparent in either parent.

Let's look at what is known about the coat colour genes in Mastiffs.

 

The Main Genes

 

Arguably the most important coat colour locus in dogs is the A locus. In decreasing order of dominance, the alleles at this locus are AS, AY, A, asa, at and a. The last one, recessive black, is known only in German Shepherds, and we can forget about it. The only gene among these alleles that conforms to the Mastiff standard is Ay,.which, depending on other factors, can produce a dog anywhere in the colour range from pale biscuit through yellow to deep red. An important point about this gene is that it does permit the existence of some black hairs, usually identified as sailing, especially on the back, and it also permits a black mask and ears.

 

What about the other alleles?

As tries to produce an all black coat, providing the genes at other loci permit it. True blacks have historically occurred in Mastiffs and occur still, but they are a non-standard colour.

The gene called A produces the wild, or grey, colour, with hairs that are individually banded with black and another colour. This is probably the original colour of the dog species.

asa is a variation of this where these hairs are restricted to a saddle-like pattern on the dog's back and sides. Both these variations have been seen in Mastiffs, though they may be due to some other genes l will mention later. Recently I have seen a photograph of a Mastiff apparently carrying the at gene, which causes the black and tan pattern, as is seen in Dobermans and Rottweilers. None of these genes give a coat colour approved by the modern standard.

  

The next most important locus for coat colour is the E locus. This is not quite so well understood as the A locus, although it has been much studied. Little believe the dominant gene was Em, a gene which attempts

to produce a black mask and ears, but restrict the rest of the coat to the yellow-red range. These days, most people believe Em does not exist, but that the mask comes from a dominant gene, Ma, at a separate locus. The no-mask recessive would be ma. Whichever gene causes the mask, most Mastiffs have it. If Em does exist, it has to share dominance at this locus with Ebr the brindle gene. Little said that when a dog has the gene pair EmEbr, It shows both a black mask and brindling. Two such dogs bred together could have some offspring of type EbrEbr which presumably would not have a black mask at all. This is the problem with Em, because no such breeding of masked brindle dogs producing maskless brindle dogs has been reported. Really the only hope for the continued belief in Em is the possibility that the pairing EbrEbr itself produces a mask because of all the dark pigment it generates.

Next lowest in dominance at this locus is E, the gene for extending black pigment over the whole body. Surprisingly, if Em does not exist, then this is the gene possessed by non-brindle Mastiffs. The reason it does not normally produce black Mastiffs is that Mastiffs, as we have seen, carry the Ay gene, which does not provide much black pigment for E to spread, except for possible sabling.

The final gene at this locus is e, the non-extension gene. Because it is recessive to the others, the gene pair has to be ''ee'' for it to have any effect, but in that case, it produces clear yellows or reds with no black hairs at all. There is no indication that this gene exists in Mastiffs, and if it did, it would probably produce specimens with no mask.

 

One gene locus important in Mastiffs but obscure for most other breeds is the C locus. This is the locus for so-called chinchilla silvering, represented by gene cch, which gives a light, flat tone to the non-black pigments, but leaves black unaffected.

Hence we have the silver-fawn colour. The dominant gene here is C, the gene for full colour, and the only one known for most breeds. Many Mastiffs show no silvering, so this gene is not uncommon in the breed.

Another possible gene is ce, representing an extreme silvering, approaching white. lf this gene exists, it might be responsible for the lightest coloured Mastiffs. There are two other genes at this locus, cb and c, blue-eyed albino and true pink-eyed albino, but these are very rare in any dog breed and not known in Mastiffs.

 

Rare Genes

 

A locus which is important in some breeds but not usually in Mastiffs is the B locus. Mastiffs generally have only the dominant B gene, which allows the black colour in masks, ears, brindle stripes Etc. The recessive b gene, which turns those black areas into brown, does crop up from time to time, most famously in Crown Prince, a dog from 100 years ago who is at the back of every extended pedigree.

 

The D locus is another which rarely figures in Mastiffs. The full-colour gene is called D. The recessive gene d dilutes black pigment into a bluish grey, and also lightens and dulls reds and yellows. Again it has been known

to crop up from time to time in Mastiffs, and is particularly noticeable in the so-called blue brindles. It is possible for this gene to co-exist with the previously mentioned b gene, and dogs with gene configuration bbdd are technically known as lilac. This is usually only seen in the Weimeraner, the isabella Doberman and possibly some Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, but I have seen a Newfoundland in a washed-out brown shade which might have been a lilac.

 

The S locus (affecting spotting) is one which might have been quite important in the past, when large dogs which fell under the general description of Mastiffs were often pied or even predominantly white. It is difficult to say how much such dogs contributed to the breed we have today, but they have certainly been strongly selected against since the last century, perhaps to avoid confusion with St. Bernard's.

S is the normal, no-spotting gene, then, in descending dominance, come: si, causing white underneath, legs and chests, with a white collar and blaze; sp, causing piebald spotting, or patches on a white background; and sw, causing a few small spots on a white background. All these have certainly greatly declined in Mastiffs, and now white areas come overwhelmingly from genes I will deal with in the next section.

 

Polygenes

 

The important characteristics of living creatures usually are controlled by a single locus. This makes the process of ''natural selection'' far more efficient and allows these characteristics to evolve more rapidly, and thus help the species survive changes in the environment. Alternatively, some less essential characteristics may actually be controlled by the alleles at a number of loci, called polygenes. This is the case for an undetermined number of colour characteristics. These polygenes take the form of plus or minus modifiers, which vary the expression of a characteristic whose basic form has been set by some major gene.

The most researched set of colour polygenes in dogs are those that vary the expression of the genes found at the S locus, which controls spotting. Ignoring the very rare albino and blue-eyed albino genes, there are four main genes at this locus, but it is easy to distinguish at least ten degrees of spotting! The "fine tuning" is done by a number of genes at other loci, each of which can be either a "minus modifier'' which tends to reduce spotting, or a ''plus modifier'' which tends to increase it. In Mastiffs, the genes other than 5, the solid colour gene, have been eliminated, or nearly so, but plus modifiers, if there are enough of them, can cause white areas on feet, chest, and sometimes elsewhere, even approaching the extent of the next lowest degree of spotting. Like other polygenes, for instance the ones that effect hip dysplasia, it will be extremely hard to eliminate these genes until a genetic test is found, because when you mate two animals with mostly minus modifiers and a few plus, chance can lead to all the plus modifiers ending up with one or more of the offspring, and you get some pups more affected than either parent. The simple rules of breeding are thus much less effective when you are dealing with polygenes rather than genes which all appear at one locus!

 

The rufus polygenes

 

The most significant, well-established set of polygenes found in Mastiffs, other than the spotting polygenes which have been dealt with above, are the rufus polygenes. These determine whether the coat is fawn or apricot. The true nature of the genetic basis of the fawn-apricot divide has certainly led me into fruitless arguments in the past, and I am grateful to Robinson (previously cited) for this clarification. As well as any single major coat-lightening genes, such as the silvering gene cch mentioned previously, there are a set of polygenes in which the minus/plus modifiers tend to make the coat paler, e.g. fawn in Mastiffs, or deeper, e.g. apricot in Mastiffs.

Research indicates that on an individual gene basis, the fawn may be dominant over the apricot, but a specimen with plus modifiers at a majority of loci will be apricot, the more plus modifiers, the deeper. It may be that only those individuals that lack the cch gene can achieve the true red so much more common in Bullmastiffs than Mastiffs.

 

The umbrous polygenes

 

It has already been mentioned that the type- of light pigment present in Mastiffs allows the presence of some dark tipped hairs, or sabling. The extent of this can amount to visually nil or very heavy shading, and this variation is attributed to the umbrous set of polygenes. These genes can lead to the so-called "smutty" coat. These polygenes may also have an effect on patterns such as brindling or the saddle pattern, but these probably have there own sets of polygenes. The saddle pattern seen on some dogs, including a few Mastiffs, may be the result of polygenes alone. In Mastiffs there may be polygenes affecting the width, frequency, intensity, and evenness of brindle stripes, but no research has been done. Other polygenes may affect mask. There are probably lots more sets of polygenes, but they are very hard to research, as their inheritance modes are so much more complex than the major genes.

 

Genes Not Found ln Mastiffs

 

There are some gene loci where Mastiffs are only known to have a standard "normal, solid colour'' gene. Nevertheless, through mutation or from long ago cross-breedings, some other genes could crop up in the future. There are several types of mixed colour coats other than the ones already mentioned, including merle, a mingled or patchy pattern of light and dark areas, and two related patterns: harlequin, where an extra gene makes the light areas into white, and tweed, where a different extra gene makes the light areas have different intensities. There is also ticking, where there are spots of mixed coloured and white occurring in otherwise white areas of the coat. (This might be one to watch out for, since it is common in Saint Bernard's, the main source of untypical genes in Mastiffs.)

lf this pattern occurs throughout the coat it is called roan, and if the spots contain no white hairs, it is called flecking. As well as the D locus dilution of colour, which is not unknown in Mastiffs, There are several other colour-diluting genes, including pink-eyed dilution, progressive silvering dilution, in which black areas become grey with maturity, and powder-puff dilution, only reported in Collies so far, in which grey areas become black. Also only in collies are a dominant slate-grey dilution, and CN dilution, where grey colour is just a feature of a fatal genetic disease.

 

The genes of the typical Mastiff

 

Finally, we can now describe the genetic basis for the typical Mastiff coat. I will use an abbreviated notation. All the loci for unusual colour genes will just have a ''normal, solid colour'' gene, so l make no further mention of them. Remember that every gene is a partner in a pair of loci with an identical range of possibilities. When l write a single gene. l will be representing an identical pair, and when l write a choice in brackets, e.g. (E or Ebr), then l mean the pair of genes may both be E, or both Ebr, or they may be one of each. Commas indicate a change of locus pair.

The standard Mastiff colour gene combination is:

 

AY, B, (cch or C), D, (E or-Ebr), Ma, S

 

This symbolises a dog in the yellow/red colour range, with any dark pigment being black, possible ''chinchilla'' silvering, no dilution, either solid coloured or brindled, a black mask, and no major white areas.

We also know that there are polygenes which determine whether the dog is at the yellow end (fawn) or the red end (apricot) of the colour range, while other polygenes determine how much dark pigment (sabling) there is, how extensive any minor white spotting there is, and what the character of the brindling is, if present, as well as the extent of the mask.

To go from the normal to the most extreme, from known variations in the Mastiff colour range, we have seen that dogs can exist which are entirely black, or lacking any black markings, or substantially white. Given an

unlikely combination of rare genes, a black and white patched Mastiff is possible. Furthermore, the black in any colour pattern could be replaced by brown "blue'' or ''lilac''.

For instance, As,b,cch,d,E,ma,sp would be a markless white dog with pale ''lilac'' patches ! l emphasize it would be virtually impossible to gather together all the aberrant genes needed to produce such an animal.

 

In conclusion, Mastiffs are a breed with a limited variation in colour, nothing like as complicated as Poodles or even Great Danes. No one is likely to see the most extreme possible combinations of unusual genes, unless some unscrupulous person resorted to cross-breeding to more variable breeds like Neapolitan Mastiffs. It therefore remains with the breeder and the judge to take into consideration the overall animal when considering how much ''weight'' to apply to individual colour faults.

 

By David F.Collinson, Ph.D.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #343 

 

PYRENEAN MASTIFF

Pet Meds
Pet Meds
Find Pet Med At Ask
PATTERDALE TERRIER
PEKINGESE
PERDIGUEIRO PORTUGUESO
PERRO DE PASTOR MALLORQUIN
PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO
PERRO DE PRESA MALLORQUIN
PERUVIAN INCA ORCHID
PHARAOH HOUND
PLOTT HOUND
PODENGOS PORTUGUESOS
POINTER
POITEVIN
POLISH HOUND
POLSKI OWCZAREK NIZINNY
POMERANIAN
POODLES
PORCELAINE
PORTUGUESE WATER DOG
PUDELPOINTER
PUG
PULI
PUMI
PYRENEAN MASTIFF

Additonal Breeds Starting
With Letter:

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P R S T U V W X Y

Sponsor
Auction Help Site

COUNTRY: Spain
WEIGHT: 120-155 pounds
HEIGHT: 28V2-32 inches or more
COAT: Moderate length on the back; longer on tail, neck, chest and backs of legs
COLOR: Basically white with body or head markings of grays, brindle, black, orange or fawn obligatory
OTHER NAMES: Perro Mastin del Pireneo, Mastin d'Aragon
REGISTRY: FCI
GROUP-.Flock Guard
PYRENEAN MASTIFF

Massive flock-guarding dogs arrived on the Iberian Peninsula over 30 centuries ago. Cargos of Assyrian and Sumerian-type dogs were traded around the Mediterranean by the Phoenicians. Many of these dogs were left in Spain, where they found ample employment with the great flocks. As they spread throughout the peninsula, the dogs developed several regional variations. Moving north into the ancient kingdom of Aragon, the Pyrenean Mastiff was born.


Until nearly 1500, Spain was divided into several small, ever-changing, often warring, principalities. But a most civilized system of sheep raising developed that transcended political and economical uncertainties.
The Trashumante, or the formal mass migration of flocks to and from grazing grounds, paralleled the history of the Pyrenean Mastiff. The Visigoth King Eurico created the first regulations for these migrations in 504 AD, which continued through the 18th century. The routes (always north and south from the mountains to the lowlands) for each grand flock were formally delineated, and the shepherds, sheep and sheepdogs were allowed to cross political barriers and to supersede wars in then-search for grass. The sheep were divided into herds of 1,000 head, each assigned a shepherd and five mastins—no more—with the canines each receiving the same food allotment as each human. The dogs protected the flocks from wolves and bears and were highly esteemed.

Named for the area of the Trashumante source, dogs coming with flocks from Aragon were called Mastin d'Aragon. Those accompanying the migration from Navarre were dubbed Mastin Navarro, etc., with minimal type variations.
It wasn't until 1946 that any attempt at consolidation occurred. At that time, the smooth-coated, heavier headed, more solid-colored dogs from La Mancha, Extremadura, Castille and Leon were lumped together under the name Spanish Mastiff (Mastin de Espariol). The longer coated dogs with more white from the north and northeast were grouped as the Pyrenean Mastiff.
The Pyrenean dogs, once in danger of extinction, are now benefiting from a resurgence of pride in Spain for the native dogs of that country. They are magnificent companions and guardians, a living piece of Spanish history.
A proper Mastin del Pireneo should be distinctly different from both the Spanish Mastiff and the Great Pyrenees. The Spanish Mastiff is smooth-coated; has lower set, larger ears and more stop; and has more color—often solid-colored. Differing by his much more refined head, the Great Pyrenees is also rangier for his size and is all white. The Pyrenean Mastiff carries a very deep head frequently accompanied by a considerable wealth of dewlap, as well as "showing the haw." His ears often fold back into his neck ruff, like so many dogs in this group.
His temperament is benign, even with other animals, as long as property and beings under his watchful eye are not threatened—then he can be formidable. Owners say he has a "clear concept of his strength" and doesn't need to show it off. The breed has a good many proponents at home, with a fair amount of interest established in Sweden, Norway and Finland.



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #344 

Linkage and Segregation Analysis of Black and Brindle Coat Color ...

An additional aspect of coat-color variation in domestic dogs that appears distinct from most other mammals is the phenotype known as brindle, ...
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17483404 - Similar pages

Coat Color Genetics

The color has very little similarity to brindle in the dog. Brindle in dogs consists of black, vertical stripes on a sable/fawn background, usually rather ...
bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

Perro de Presa Canario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of our present understanding of canine coat genetics is based on the work of Clarence Cook Little, author of "Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs" (1979) ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presa_Canario - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Linkage and segregation analysis of black and brindle coat color ...

Melanocortin signaling. Agouti gene. Pigmentation. Brindle coat color ...... an East Asian origin of domestic dogs. Science 298: 1610-1613. ...
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/rapidpdf/genetics.107.074237v1.pdf - Similar pages


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #345 

Canine Coat Color - Inheritance and Appearance (coat colors and coat color inheritance in dogs) with an emphasis on Colors in Borzoi

©1995,1996, 1997 Bonnie Dalzell, MA, version 8-21-97

About this article. This is a work in progress. As of 8-21-97 links are being added to pictures with examples of the colors in question.

Many writers have written books that discussed canine coat color genetics. The best known of these books is by Little, the most recent that I have read is by Malcolm Willis. Because canine coat color genetics is an area of knowledge that is only partially understood NONE of the published accounts has proposed a completely correct genetic system for dog coat colors.

It is also most important to understand that there is a major difference between the appearance of an animal (called its phenotype) and its genetic makeup (called its genotype). Most commonly encountered discussions of canine coat color are basically phenotypic, as in most cases we can only describe the colors that we see in the dog in front of us.

Before we examine the colors of domestic dogs let us look at the colors of their wild relatives. This link takes you illustrations of wild canid colors

Here are the basics of dog coat color genetics as I understand them:

First we will discuss a series of genes (the S locus) that control the distribution of color on a dog. Then we will discuss the varies series of genes that control the colors themselves. The A (agouti) locus (which is the principle set of genes that govern distribution of black pigment relative to red pigment in the coat), the various dilution loci, the brindle and black mask loci.

Spotting and white markings

The presence of color in a mammal is due to the presence of granules of pigment in pigment bearing cells called melanocytes. Where melanocytes are present the animal has the potential to produce color. Melanocytes serve an important function in shielding deeper structures from harmful ultraviolet radiation.

The first variable of animal coat color is the distribution of these pigment bearing cells. There are sets of genes that influence the distribution of melanocytes on the body. When these cells are absent, unpigmented white patches appear. If one of these patches of white skin is taken and transplanted into a dark colored spot on the animal the resulting transplant will remain white since it has no pigment cells. Injuries that damage the melanocytes in an area can result in white scars due to failure of these cells to regenerate.

Melanocytes are rather special cells. First they take their embryonic origin from the same part of the embryo and at the same time as the central nervous system (the brain & spinal cord). After the brain and spinal cord are formed these special cells that are left over at the edge of the area of central nervous system formation are called Neural Crest Cells.

These special Neural Crest cells then migrate throughout the body to form the melanocytes of the skin, the adrenal glands, the dentine of the teeth,some of the bones of the base of the skull and the voice box, the cornea of the eye, special sensory cells of the ear and special components of the involuntary nervous system in the viscera.

The genes producing unpigmented white patches on the body do so by interfering either with the total number of neural crest cells produced or with their ability to migrate. In the developing embryo some structures have a stronger attraction for these migrating cells than others and in a sense have a 'priority' on them if they are in short supply. The skin has the lowest priority and this competition for limited numbers of neural crest cells accounts for some of the commonest patterns of distribution of white markings on domestic mammals.

The major series of genes affecting the distribution of melanocytes in dogs are commonly called the "S" or spotting series - alleles that affect the distribution of pigment bearing cells. There is a bit of controversy even here but most workers agree on at least 3 alleles.

  • S - self color - totally pigmented
  • s-i - irish marked (i.e. collie marked or boston marked)
  • s-p - piebald spotting (20 to 60 percent colored but broken up into spots)
  • s-w - extreme white piebald - color confined to ears and maybe tail base.
Most white dogs are s-w, s-w for color distribution (meaning that they have the extreme white piebald gene (s-w) at this chromosomal site on both the chromosome inherited from the dam and the one inherited from the sire) and then have inherited various of the dilution genes that reduce color intensity so that the few spots that are present are diluted out and not noticable.

Controversies concerning the S series: Irish marked animals bred to spotted animals can produce self-coloreds as well as irish marked and spotted animals. If the above "S" gene mechanism were the only way to produce "Irish", this should not be possible, so there are times when the Irish pattern appears to be due to some other modifiers acting to restrict color in a self-colored dogs.

  • White appears commonly on the toes and tail tips in most breeds unless extreme selection in exercised in breeding programs (as in Irish setters).

  • All other things being equal, the colored spots are larger in dogs with full color (especially black) and smaller in littermates who are paler, diluted colors.

  • The S series is important in Borzoi as almost all of the "white" Borzoi are s-p or s-w dogs with diluting genes producing such pale spots that the animals appear all white.

"T" or ticking series - the dominant gene T allows formation of small speckles or spots of the whatever color the dog is in the areas of the dog that are white due to the action of the S series alleles. The ticking is usually absent at birth and the concentration of ticking can increase with age. Ticking is much more obvious in dogs with a black coat than in diluted cream dogs. Ticked bicolor (black&tan) dogs will have black ticks on the body and tan ticks on the extremities. Heavily ticked animals in pointer breeds are termed "beltons". Ticking is present in Borzoi and helps to produce harder black claws and black foot pads in otherwise white dogs. The mechanism of action of the ticking gene may be similar to the action of the apaloosa gene in horses.

It should be noted that in other breeds of domestic animals multiple loci have been shown to be important in producing spotted animals. In horses there are at least two different loci producing piebalds the overo and the tobiano.

Colors, shades and distribution of color in the coat.

The second great variable in coat color is the shade, intensity and distribution of the colors present in the pigment bearing cells. There are two primary pigments in the coats of mammals, red and black. Outside of spotting all other aspects of coat colors are due to the action of a series of genes that affect:

  1. The presence or absence of one or both of these pigments in the hair and skin.
  2. The degree of dilution of the pigments present.
  3. The patterns of distribution of the pigments within a given hair
  4. The pattern of distribution of different colors of pigmented hairs over the body.
We can most easily understand coat color if we first consider color patterns that are the result of these separate actions and then consider the results of these actions taken together. Most canine coat color researchers agree on the presence of the following sets of genes as controllers of coat color in dogs (each set is called a genetic locus - the alternative genes for each locus are called alleles). The alleles are listed in order of most dominant to most recessive. A dominant color will normally mask a color recessive to it. Any given normal animal can have a maximum of only two alleles at a given locus. For each locus I list first the gene name then a physical description of the gene's action.

1. "A" locus - The Agouti or primary coat color locus

Allele name Color nameCombinations that can give this color A Dominant black A + any other a-locus allele a-y a-y red a-y / a-y or a-y / a-t a-t black and tan a-t / a-t
Gene locus name
A or Agouti
This locus is the major determinant of color of hairs over whole body unless colored hairs are suppressed by spotting (i.e. piebald or pinto). This locus is named the agouti locus and it produces much of its effects by controlling the distribution of pigments within individual hairs. The various alleles (genes) in the agouti series act differently on hairs in different parts of the body.

The classic agouti hair has multiple bands of contrasting color which mark alternating episodes during the growth of the hair when the production of black pigment was allowed and then inhibited. The multibanded agouti guard hair is distinctive from the dark tipped sabled hair in which black pigment was deposited during the initial stages of hair growth but then inhibited for the balance of the growth of that hair.

  • A = dominant black - the color of a typical black labrador retreiver.
  • a-y = "a" locus red - the body color of a typical Belgian Malinois or a red collie - also called dominant yellow or golden sable.
  • a-g = agouti - the banded wolf sable coat color of a German Shepherd dog. Saddled beagles and foxhounds may also be this color - there is some controversy here which I will discuss under the complications section This color is probably not be present in Borzoi. In dogs with this allele there will be many multibanded hairs. If the dog is primarily black the banded hairs will occupy a transitional band between the dark areas and the tan areas.
  • a-t = a locus bicolor , the color of a rottweiler. Geneticists call this color tan point or bicolor, dog breeders usually call it black and tan. Confusion arises when the tan is diluted to such a pale silver that the animal appears to be black and white. In this document I will generally refer to it as 'bicolor' or 'black&tan'.

Some "A" locus complications:

  1. A dog that is a-y, a-t will have more black hairs in its coat than a dog that is a-y, a-y. The a-y, a-y dog is called a clear red, the a-y,a-t dog is called a sabled red. This distinction is readily seen in collies and Borzois - breeds in which both red and bicolor (black&tan) exist. The black hairs scattered in the coat will either be all black or black tipped, but not multiply banded.

  2. There is a dilution of a-t which has been called by some Borzoi fanciers, "agouti". I feel this designation is incorrect and should not be perpetuated as it leads to confusion with the banded coat hairs seen in German Shepherds and some other breeds. This color is also silver sable (Borzoi), domino (Afghans) and grizzle (Salukis). In Borzoi, Salukis and Afghans breeders sometimes speak of it is an additional A locus color recessive to black&tan. It was not until I had A (dominant black) dogs to deal with that I was able to see some breedings showing this color to be a dilution of a-t rather than an additional allele on the A locus. In these dogs the vast majority of the hairs are only dark tipped, rarely can an occasional multi-banded hair be found. This may be the common color pattern of Malamutes and Siberian Huskies

    If any one animal can have only two alleles on a locus it can be difficult to decide if a third color is due to a third alternate allele for that locus or if it is due to a modifying factor that alters the appearance (phenotype) of only one of the alleles.

  3. Dr Acland pointed out to me that in most mammals the agouti banded wild type is the dominant color of the A locus series. This is not true in dogs, where we have the unbanded dominant black as the most dominant allele. This is actually a major complication. Although it does not falsify the relative inheritance of the colors grouped as being on the "A" locus it does raise the possibility that this locus is not homologous to the A locus common to other species of mammals.

II. Dilution loci

- these affect the intensity of pigment in the coat, skin and eyes.

Dilutions affecting black pigment the most profoundly:

1. "B" series

Allele name color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color B Normal B / B or B / b bbrown dilute b / b liver, chocolate
Gene locus name
B or brown


(two alleles: B,b) - commonly called liver dilute, red dilute or brown dilute - black pigment is lightened and reddened to chocolate, liver or deep red. Red pigments are lightened from red to tan. Liver dobes, Pharaoh hounds and Ibizan Hounds are common examples. I have seen liver dilute Borzoi also but it is very rare and undesired since the noses are definately red to brown.

The color of skin that is normally black is also affected, as is eye color. The dogs will have yellow eyes and pink to red to chocolate nose leather, lip rims and eye rims. The liver or brown (b) condition is recessive .

2. "D" series -commonly called blue dilute -(two alleles: D,d) black pigment is diluted to blue, red & yellow pigment is washed out towards silver. The dilute (d) condition is recessive. Blue danes and dobes are common examples. This dilution is more common in Borzoi than liver dilution since a dark grey nose in a white or silver dog is not as markedly light as is the liver nose in a white dog. They eyes are generally lighter than in undiluted litter mates and may be blue at birth darkening to a paper bag colored yellow-gray by a year of age. The nose leather, eye rims and lip edges will be dark grey. Some blue dilute individuals may have acceptably dark eyes. This is probably due to the presence for an independent gene for dark eyes.

3. "C" series (also called albino and chinchilla dilute) - Black and red pigments are both reduced in amount. Blacks become silvery grey, reds become cream to off white. Several alleles.

  • C full color
  • c-ch chinchilla - red lightened or removed from coat, black lightened to grey - the Borzoi grey pups that turn gold at 6 to 8 weeks are probably c-ch golds.
  • c-d white coat with black nose and dark eyes (Samoyeds) - there is controversy as to whether this gene really exists.
  • c-b called Cornaz albino - blue eyes with pale greyish coat - described in Pekinese and Pomeranians only.
  • c pink eyed white (full) albinos. Not found in Borzoi.
Controversies about these three dilution loci: The B and D series seem to be the major gene loci on which all workers agree. The C series may have more alleles, perhaps minor variants on the c-ch allele, a variant may be responsible for the Borzoi greys that turn gold.

4. The "E" (extension locus).

Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
E or extension E Normal E / E or E / e
e extension yellow e / e gold, yellow, cream, irish setter red


This is quite controversial. I (BD) feel that there are two alleles -- E, which allows for full expression of black pigment distributed as the dog's A locus genes dictate, and the recessive e, extension yellow, in which all black is supressed in the coat from birth. We have extension yellow in Borzoi.

5. The Superextension (Black Masked) locus

Gene locus n Allele name< Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
Super extension SE Black mask E / E or E / e
se no black mask e / e reverse mask


Many workers put black mask (super extension) and brindle on the E locus. However the presence of black masked but otherwise clear gold dogs argues for a separate super extension (black mask) locus. Black mask has a number of different phenotypes - from the fox black muzzle which may lighten by 3 years of age to the fully black head with black on the toes, chest, tail tip, ears and genital region (sort of a mirror image of the bicolor condition). We have black mask in Borzoi. These could represent different masking alleles.

6. As for brindle, the clustering of black pigment into stripes wherever the coat is red, I (BD) have a lot of breeding records to indicate that it is a dominant gene that is independent of black mask and does not belong on the E locus. The degree of brindling varies greatly from individual to individual. A brindle can have a few widely spaced stripes or it can be so heavily striped that the base color is seen as only a few pale streaks in an otherwise dark coat. The genetics of this range of brindling intensity are not well understood but are thought to be inherited independently of the presence or absence of brindling.

7. "G" locus - greying - a dominant gene G that progressively greys black pigment in the coat and a recessive gene g that fails to cause greying. Kerry blue terriers and scottish deerhounds are a good examples of this. Pups are born black, the GG and Gg pups turn blue grey with black nose leather and lip pigment, the occasional gg pup will remain black.

8."M" - Merle series. Another controversial series that may have several alles. Normal is recessive. M is dominant and in many breeds MM dogs have reduced vigor and the breed commonly has mm normals as well as Mm merles. Colors associated with the M series include merle in collies, merle and harlequin in danes, dapple in dachshunds. The M gene does not occur in Borzoi, fortunately.

Unexplained mysteries.

Is there a red intensifier locus responsible for intense red pigmentation in e,e dogs such as Irish Setters, Salukis and greyhounds. Some red Borzoi from the United Kingdom appear to have this intensifier. Little proposed a dominant gene "P" which affects depth of pigment.

Mahogany sabling - many a-y red dogs are born black, lighten until puberty and then with each new coat lay in more and more black hairs in a distinctive mantle that somewhat resembles the phenotype of the "dominos". However the "dominos" are born domino patterned and do not lighten to an unpatterned state. Mahogany sabling in Borzoi is seen in both dark and washed out (probably c-ch) red dogs and also occurs as an overlay on many brindles, producing a mahogany brindle. My breeding records suggest that the mahogany sable factor is recessive . It is important to remember that the original meaning of the word sable is black. Originally collie fanciers spoke of "sabled reds" that is red dogs with black hairs in their coats, but time and linguisitic shift shortened this to "sable" for a red dog with black hairs. In the interest of linguistic accuracy this usage should be discouraged. "Sabled red" is to be preferred. This mahogany sabling appears to occur in Akitas and Belgian Tervuren (where it is combined with black mask). I have seen it in Borzoi in unmasked individuals.

"Argent" silvers. This is a dilution of the dominant black. Self colored dogs are born dark silver, being darker on the face and legs. As they mature the entire dog lightens and the body coat becomes a mixture of white, black and grey hairs. I suspect that this is the same dilution acting with the dominant black as the 'agouti' acts with the bicolor (a-t). It may be that the cream sables are this dilution applied to an a-y red.

B liver, chocolate

Summary of Canine coat colors found in Borzoi


Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
A or Agouti A Dominant black A + any other a-locus allele  
 a-y a-y red a-y/a-y Clear red - there can be a few black hairs
 a-y a-y red a-y/a-t Sabled red, red with an overlay of black hairs
 a-t black and tana-t/a-t Tan point, Grizzle. domino. silver sable, agouti

Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
B or brown Normal B / B or B / b
b brown dilute b / b
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Gene locus name Allele nameColor name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
E or extension E Normal E / E or E / e
  e extension yellow e / e gold, yellow, cream, irish setter red

Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
Super extension SE Black mask E / E or E / e
se no black mask e / e reverse mask

Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
BR or Brindle BR Brindle BR / BR
or
BR / br
br absence of brindle br / br

Gene locus name Allele name Color name Combinations that can give this color Other common names for the color
T or Ticking BR Ticked T / T
or
T / t
Belton (heavy ticking)
dalmation - distinct spots
br no ticking t / t
"Br" locus                            S locusBr          striped (brindled)      S           solid colored (self)br          not striped             s-i         irish marked (collie mrkd)                                    s-p         spotted                                    s-e         extreme white spottedT locus                             G LocusT           ticked                  G           greyingt           not ticked              g           not greyingC locus C           full coloredc-ch        chinchilla dilute
Remember that each dog has two genes at each locus. The genes may be identical in which case the dog is homozygous for those genes - or they may be unlike - in which case the dog is heterozygous.

8 accepted loci, 2 controversial loci for which there is good evidence in Borzoi and the hypothetical mahogany sable overlay condition, a conditon which is well observed in Borzoi and Akitas even though the genetic details are yet to be worked out. It should be noted that all of these loci can occur in different combinations with each other leading to over 4000 possible color combinations.


Glossary

  • Analogous, analog - in biology analogous structures are structures similar due to similar function - as in the flipper of a porpoise and the diving plane of a submarine. The contrast is with homologous structures which are structures which are similar because of a common structure in the common ancestor. Thus the wing of a bird and the foreleg of a dog are homologous structures since the structures are both derived from the foreleg of a common ancestral primitive reptile.
  • Dominant - in genetics, the situation in which the presence of a single gene of a given pair will cause the trait or condition to be apparent in the animal.

  • Homologous, honolog - in biology this means similar because of a common structure in the common ancestor. Thus the wing of a bird and the foreleg of a dog are homologous structures since the structures are both derived from the foreleg of a common ancestral primitive reptile. Analogous structures are structures similar due to similar function - as in the flipper of a porpoise and the diving plane of a submarine.

  • Recessive - in genetics, the situation in which the presence of a single gene of a given pair is not sufficient to cause the trait or condition to be apparent in the animal. Recessive traits are sometimes called hidden traits.

jill

Avatar / Picture

** Power Poster **
and
FORUM DONOR!!
Registered:
Posts: 1,933
Reply with quote  #346 
Is ticking the parts that are not stripes and not spots?  like the small black parts of Dozer's white?      



__________________
If you can't run with the big dogs-Stay on the porch! hehehehehe-Leo's mama


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #347 

Coat Color Genetics

T, ticking. Some dogs develop flecks of color in areas left white by genes in the S series. The clearest and most obvious ticking is seen in Dalmations, ...
bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

Ticking in Dogs - The White Aussies Project

Solid color dogs (with no white) can carry ticking. However, you won't be able to see it, since ticking is only visible in white trim areas. ...
http://www.lethalwhites.com/merle/ticking.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Canine Coat Color Inheritance and Appearance - coat colors and ...

Ticking is much more obvious in dogs with a black coat than in diluted cream ... of genes as controllers of coat color in dogs (each set is called a genetic ...
http://www.batw.net/borzois.com/coat.color/coat.color.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Coat Color Genetics in Dogs

For the latest on general information on coat color alleles in dogs, ..... "ticking locus" produces pigment spots on areas of white coat color. ...
http://www.chromadane.com/standardcoat.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #348 

Color Inheritance in the English Mastiff

The three AKC standard acceptable Mastiff colors, fawn, brindle and apricot are shown below. .... T - ticking; distribution of melanocytes to specific areas ...
http://www.molepharmer.com/mastiff/colorinh.html - 53k - Cached - Similar pages

Coat Color Inheritance in the ASD - ASDI, Inc.

Leg ticking is often observed, but body ticking is not. Because this is primarily a working breed of dog, little attention should be paid to color, ...
http://www.anatoliandog.org/genetic.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
jill

Avatar / Picture

** Power Poster **
and
FORUM DONOR!!
Registered:
Posts: 1,933
Reply with quote  #349 

thankyou Deborah


__________________
If you can't run with the big dogs-Stay on the porch! hehehehehe-Leo's mama
Kiokeemastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 371
Reply with quote  #350 
  I had the opportunity to see MoJo and Col. Of Shiloh in person on several occassions--both were very nice dogs.  Both had a few white markings and lots of dark pigment.  Ellen Montgomery who owned both at one time was and still is a dear friend.

  I find the genetics of pieds fasinating--it takes the right combination of genes to cause this pattern to show up.  It can lay hidden for several gererations before showing up; so an open discusssion of lines that has produced it is very beneficial to all of us who breed.  If we know there is a possibility of the "genes' being hid in our lines then we can breed to avoid any further combinations.

   I am almost sure there is a Saint Benard behind this pied gene--the patterning and the ticking is a dead give away.  I am also very sure we have those among us who know exactly when it was done--so the lines could be identified.  My guess is that it has been done more than once  by well meaning people who hid it not thinking about long term effects.

I also see way too much Dogue de Bourdeax traits in some apricots--I'm sure there is a few of those hidden away in a few lines.  I have seen Apricot puppies with almost no mask--and they do look way too much like a DdB. The very light eyes are another give away. Another well meaning outcross that has had long term effects.

   I am  familiar with the Tigger Lily side of MoJo's pedigree--Some of my dogs are line related to her through her sire--Smokey.  I have not--so far--produced any pieds out of my lines and I have over 7 generations bred.

   Any time the gene pool is restricted and generations of closely related breedings are done--we will see genetic abnormalities.  Sadly, it the breeder of the litter  that produces these problems that gets the blame when it could have come from a breeding some years past.  No wonder breeders "hid" their mistakes--many can't tolerate the criticism  and mud that would be flung their way.  It's the main reason many will not admit to genetic problems in their lines.  It takes a tough hide to survive as a breeder--often we feel as if we stand alone.

  Ok, it happens.  So what?  Why are we finger pointing and blaming?  Believe me there are much worst things in this world. I really don't care WHO did it--just where is this gene and how can we work to decrease it in our lines is my main concern.

  When a breeder is honest enough to speak up about these types of genetic issues in their lines--why do others dive in for the kill?  Do we make ourselves look better by making someone else look bad?  Do we have to step on others to elevate ourselves?  Does the success of others decrease our own? 

  Those of my generation who were raised In the south were taught if you can't say anything good about a person--say nothing.  It's called respect and manners.  I do not have to agree with all you do and say--but I do have the ability to control my reactions and NOT to react to unkind or untruthful statements made by others.  As a nurse, we are taught to neither comdemn nor condone the actions of others--it's not our place to judge the actions of others.  It's not our place to say it's right or wrong--it's up to those who made the decsion to make that judgement.  It's called insight.

  I see a lot of "judging" in here at times. To comdemn a person for a decision they made is harsh--we do not always have all the facts, nor have we walked in their shoes and stood where they stood when they made their decisions.  Anyone can stand in hindsight and make a great 20/20 decision.  I may disagree with another's decision, but I will stand up for their RIGHT to make any decision they wish and to support THEIR decision.

  Life would be so boring if we all bred our dogs the same--it's the individual differences that make a "breeder's line" or "look"--and I for one cherish the differences we have in our dogs. Thirty years ago, our breed had a much more "regionalized appearence--breeders did not travel very far to breed and thus all the dioogs in one area would look very similar. It's with the use of AIs and the Internet(because we can all now go looking far and wide for the "right" stud dog) that is beginning to change this  trait.

It's these minor differences that make our breed stronger because in each generation we add to this "mix" to make great dogs.  In another 30 years will the appearance of our dogs be more "standardized"?  Heads, pigment, height, toplines, rear angulation, and other traits be more alike?  Will we have less differences between east and west coast dogs? Will the issue of DR and DRF lines still be raging (I hope not) or will a harmonious blend be accomplished?

When we share information of both bad and good results, we can help others.  Supporting each other and working together is the key to success.  Too bad so many think they need to do it alone.

 



__________________
Catie C. Arney

"Stupid people Shouldn't breed; themselves or dogs."
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.