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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #101 

Kristen,

 

Typically in true bloat/torsion there is no vomitus, there is just the wretching sound with no discharge of stomach contents. In your case, the brown fluid being purged was a contrary indication leading away from true bloat.


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #102 

"Steve,

Regarding getting a dog vertical when bloating. We've had several where we caught the beginnings of the bloat and when we got to the vet it was gone. We finally figured out it was the way we were putting the dogs into the Suburban (very high off the ground). We'd put up the front feet first, and then the back feet, and this stretching would straighten things out in the early stages of bloat. So from then on we'd make an effort to mimic this if we had a bloating dog. We'd put their front legs up on a table, or, if Dad was home he'd pick the dogs up high... It does help to do this if you catch it early.

We've found the best way to deal with bloat is to avoid it to begin with... Avoid foods that contain soy, and, of course, follow the standards of no strenuous exercise too close to eating and no gulping down of food/water.

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"Steve,
I also want to clarify, for any who might misunderstand, that this method is NOT meant to REPLACE veterinary care. It is just a procedure to try, especially if you know you've caught it in the early stages. It can work. However, we ALWAYS would continue bringing our dog to the vet after trying this. It's just that our vet was a 45-minute drive from our house (well...maybe 30-minutes when we had a bloating dog or other emergency) and death before making it there was a real possibility if we didn't try something. This really tended to work when we caught it early. But, not always. Also, we've noticed that once a dog bloats once, even if it is only mildly, they are much more prone to it in the future. Knock wood, once we switched foods to something our gang digested easier, and now on raw, we haven't had to deal with the issue.

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Old School Mastiffs
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/ "


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #103 

Steve is right - many of us have vets that are far away.  The closest ER vet is over 1/2 hour.  My regular vets are over an hour.  We have closer vets, but I would never taken an emergency to them (did that once, and it was a waste of time!). 

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Reply with quote  #104 

Phayzyme?


 


 


 


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AnnaJo

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Reply with quote  #105 

I am new to this board, and to the world of mastiffs, but I wanted to ask a question on bloat.

 

-->How many of the dogs were fed raw foods as opposed to kibble based diets? 

 

All the very sad and tragic experiences with this condition have me wondering if this is a deciding factor on how to prevent this from happening?  Kristen you mentioned this in your post and I was interested in learning more. 

 

Steve you indicated that you have been studying this for 30 yrs, and wondered if the type of diet fed is soemthing that was recorded also?  If there is someplace online that I can read any facts I would appreciate being directed to it.  Your input would also be most appreciated.   

 

I am very concerned about this happening to my new grandDog, when he is in my care.

 

I know how difficult it must be to recall anything that relates to the loss of a loved companion, but if someone , such as myself, can learn from your experience and if a tragedy can be prevented, their life was not in vain.

 

Thank you so much for your help!

 

Anna Jo

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Reply with quote  #106 

Hi Anna,

Welcome to the club!

 

You will hear lots of anecdotal stories about all sorts of issues surrounding bloat/torsion.

 

The bottom line is that nobody has a cure, or specific reason for it's occurance!

 

Raw feeding eliminates grains, which can cause fermentation & gas and might then trigger an incident of bloat.

 

It's still all speculative.

 

The Purdue study is of interest, but still comes up short.

 

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/bloat.htm

 

I suggest that you read as much as you can about bloat, from as many reputable organizations as possible and then form your own opinion.

 

There is no 100% fool proof method to prevent bloat!

 

I wish it were otherwise!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
AnnaJo

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Reply with quote  #107 

Thank you for your response Steve.  I will review the information on that website and continue doing more research.   

 

I would never mean to be insensitive to those that have lost a loved companion, but what about those on this group that have lost a dog to bloat/torsion.  

 

Were they fed natural foods, or kibble?  

 

Perhaps sharing any information about diet, and other habits would help others avoid such a tragic events. 

 

My heart goes out to those that have lost a pet to any illness or condition.  They will all be in my prayers.  

 

Thank you again for any responses. 

 

Anna Jo

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Reply with quote  #108 

There has been some mention of body length adding to the risk factors in triggering bloat.

 

Has any breeder had any experience in the increased frequency of bloat in some of their longer dogs compared to their squarer dogs.

 

Needless to say, these will only be anecdotal stories, but it might form a trend-line, which could shed some light on this supposition.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #109 

Anna Jo, I have never had Bloat in any of my dogs.  I do not feed raw protein anytime.  The time I did was disastrous for me for other reasons.  The dogs eat fruit and veggies but not a lot, and of course graze on grass.  They consume the left overs of ranch animals with great enthusiasm.  I do not know if it has anything to do with bloat.  My baby goats, I must watch closely on too much milk they get if bottle feed, and when they start eating green grass.  They drop over in an hour sometimes.  The strange thing is the bloat affects their left leg-- it goes paralyzed.  You can sometimes save the baby goat with Pepto -Bismo.  Just strange.

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #110 

"Dogs most susceptible to bloat are the large, deep-chested breeds, in whom the stomach appears to be more mobile within the abdomen. Risk factors are: hereditary predisposition, over-eating (large meals), rapid eating, raised feeders, pre-moistening of dry food preserved with citric acid, feeding dry food with a fat in the top four ingredients. The risk of bloat increases with age. Feeding a food with a rendered meat ingredient, inclusive of bone, in the first four ingredients decreases the risk of bloat.

The Purdue veterinary research team, who conducted a research study in 2000 into the risk factors associated with bloat concluded these are the things you can do to help prevent bloat:

a.. The strongest recommendation to prevent GVD (bloat) should be to not breed a dog that has a first degree relative that has had bloat. This places a special responsibility on an owner to inform the breeder should their dog bloat.
b.. Do not raise the feeding dish.
c.. SLOW the dog's speed of eating.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!


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Reply with quote  #111 

No more Blood Hounds?



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Reply with quote  #112 
Bump


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working for the MAN-Bump

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Reply with quote  #114 

Bump for heather


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #115 

Quote:

The pattern suggested that incomplete dominance of a major gene is the mode of inheritance of chest depth/width ratio. The data support the hypothesis that dogs with a deeper chest relative to width are at greater risk of developing bloat than dogs of the same breed with smaller chest depth/width ratios. The pattern for this family will not be complete, however, until all dogs have been followed throughout their lifetime. Breeders who want to do a similar family study can call Dr. Schaible at 812-876-9884.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #116 
When the stomach twists on itself it can't easily untwist, especially when the dog is standing on 4 legs.

The position of the stomach during bloat, should be viewed much like a filled water balloon that has been held at each end and then rotated.

If that balloon is held horizontally it can never correct for the rotation on its own.

I've experimented a bit and found that the only way to physically rotate the stomach back into its original position would be by standing the dog in an upright position ( on two legs ) and rocking the dog laterally.

From a physics perspective, using the balloon analogy, when you change the horizontal balloon into a vertical balloon it automatically can "untwist".

Perhaps this "Oifer maneuver" can save some lives!

S.O.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #117 

Canine Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (Bloat) 

School of Veterinary Medicine 

Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907-1243

Non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in large and giant breed dogs

Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; 
Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA

Summary of findings (references 1 & 2) -A 5-year prospective study was conducted to determine the incidence and non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) in 11 large- and giant-breed dogs and to assess current recommendations to prevent GDV. During the study, 21 (2.4%) and 20 (2.7%) of the large and giant breed dogs, respectively, had at least 1 episode of GDV per year of observation and 29.6% of these dogs died. Increasing age, increasing thorax depth/width ratio, having a first degree relative with a history of GDV, a faster speed of eating, and using a raised feed bowl, were associated with an increased incidence of GDV. Table 1 summarizes the magnitude and direction of GDV risk associated with having each of these factors. The relative risk (RR) indicates the likelihood of developing the disease in the exposed group (risk factor present) relative to those who are not exposed (risk factor absent). For example, a dog with a first degree relative with a history of GDV is 1.63 times (63%) more likely to develop GDV than a dog without a history of GDV. As another example, if dog ‘A’ is a year older than dog ‘B’, then dog ‘A’ is 1.20 times (20%) more likely to develop GDV than dog ‘B’. 

 

Risk FactorRelative RiskInterpretation
Age in years1.2020% increase in risk for each year increase in age
Chest depth/width ratio
(1.0 to 2.4)
2.70170% increase in risk for each unit increase in chest depth/width ratio
First degree relative with GDV (yes vs. no)1.6363% increase in risk associated with having a first degree relative with GDV
Using a raised feed bowl
(yes vs. no)
2.10110% increase in risk associated with using a raised food bowl
Speed of eating (1-10 scale)
[for Large dogs only]
1.1515% increase in risk for each unit increase in speed of eating score for large dogs

Most of the popular methods currently recommended to prevent GDV did not appear to be effective, and one of these, raising the feed bowl, may actually be detrimental in the breeds studied.In order to decrease the incidence of GDV, we suggest that dogs having a first degree relative with a history of GDV should not be bred.Prophylactic gastropexy appears indicated for breeds at the highest risk of GDV, such as the Great Dane. 


References:

1. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Incidence of and breed-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs.Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;216(1):40-45. 

2. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in large and giant breed dogs. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;217(10):1492-1499. 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #118 

Bloat is the common term for Gastric Dilation-Torsion Complex.
This condition involves the swelling of the stomach from gas, fluid or both.
Bloat is a Veterinary Emergency!!!
There are no home remedies.
Symptoms can be subtle. Learn to recognize them.

  • Paces around continuously, or, lies down in odd places
  • Salavating, panting, whining
  • Acts as if he can't get comfortable
  • Acts agitated
  • Unproductive vomiting or retching (the dog may produce frothy foamy vomit in small quanties)
  • Excessive drooling, usually accompanied by retching noises
  • Swelling in abdominal area (may or may not be noticeable)

If you see ANY combination of these symptoms, CALL YOUR VET and get the dog...there as fast as possible.

Bloat is LIFE-THREATENING. Do not wait until you see/feel an enlarged stomach!

See the excerpt from Perdue University's Bloat Notes below for details.

Excellent information, statistics, research.

A Message to Dog Owners from the Director of the Purdue Bloat Research Program

Excerpt from Bloat Notes, January 1997
(note: permission to reprint is given by the author)

Several times a week I receive a phone call from someone whose dog has died of bloat. Usually my role is to provide a sympathetic ear and assure the callers that there was nothing they could have changed to prevent the incident. Our current knowledge of bloat does not allow us to identify specific events that trigger an acute episode in susceptible dogs, although some form of "stress" was probably involved. One of our long-term research objectives is to better define what constitutes stress for dogs and to measure their physiological response to it. However, the primary goal of the research is to determine why some dogs are more susceptible to bloat than others, i.e., what are the risk factors for bloat. This has led to studies of the physical conformation of dogs, their diet, vaccination histories, and even to new ways to evaluate a dogís temperament and personality.

The overall bloat fatality rate approaches 30% for dogs with a dilated, rotated stomach. Approximately half of the dogs that die with a rotated stomach will do so before veterinary medical or surgical treatment is obtained. Dogs may be found dead or die on the way to the hospital, or may be euthanized by the veterinarian because of their poor prognosis or the owner's financial considerations. In contrast, dogs properly treated have [greater than] 80% probability of surviving a bloat episode and then leading a normal life. Veterinarians over the past 2 decades have reduced dramatically the postoperative fatality rate from gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) from [greater than]50% to [less than]20% by using improved therapy for shock, safer anesthetic agents, and better surgical techniques.

Too often, however, owners of dogs that died of bloat tell me that they had recognized that the dog had a serious problem and rushed the dog to a veterinarian, only to be told that it was probably only a "belly ache," or that the dog's stomach was dilated, but not rotated. Sometimes the veterinarian recognized dilatation, but not a rotation (volvulus, torsion), passed a stomach tube to relieve the pressure, and sent the dog home. Or the dog was diagnosed as having dilatation and rotation, and a stomach tube was passed to relieve the pressure, but surgery (gastropexy) to permanently correct the rotation was delayed, either because the dog was thought to be too ill to withstand the surgery, or the veterinarian was not adequately equipped or prepared at the time to perform the operation. The latter may occur if the veterinarian is in the midst of busy office hours or if -- especially at night -- there is insufficient technical help available to properly perform the surgery, which requires careful administration of anesthesia, appropriate fluid therapy, and close monitoring of the dog's vital signs.

Numerous clinical reports from Europe and the United States show that gastropexy to prevent gastric rotation should be performed as soon as possible following stomach decompression on all dogs with gastric dilatation, whether or not the stomach is thought to be rotated at the time. The recurrence rate of gastric volvulus in dogs treated for bloat conservatively, i.e., without surgery, approaches 100%, whereas the recurrence rate following gastropexy is [less than]5%. The stomach of a dog that has had a gastropexy can still dilate, but it is unlikely to rotate, so if dilatation does occur after gastropexy, it can probably be treated conservatively.

What does all this mean to you? If your dog suddenly develops a distended abdomen, appears uncomfortable, and gets progressively worse, rush the dog to a veterinarian, preferably one equipped to do emergency surgery. Gastric distention is a life-threatening condition, even if the stomach has not rotated. Immediate decompression is required to relieve pressure on blood vessels and to restore circulation to the heart, because shock can occur within minutes of the first clinical signs. Fluid therapy is indicated to treat shock, and drugs may be needed if the heart rhythm is irregular. This should be followed as soon as possible by surgery to reposition and immobilize (gastropexy) the stomach before it is irreversibly damaged. The best indicators of how well the dog will do postoperatively are its physical condition (state of shock) prior to surgery and the appearance of the stomach during surgery (since dead or dying stomach tissue implies a very poor prognosis). Intensive monitoring is usually required for several days postoperatively in case complications occur.

If you suspect your dog has bloat, but the veterinarian dismisses it as a minor problem, inquire about radiographs to rule out GDV. If dilatation with or without volvulus is diagnosed and the stomach is decompressed, either by passing a stomach tube or by piercing the stomach with a large needle (trochar) passed through the body wall, the dog should be considered as a candidate for immediate surgery, unless its condition is too unstable to tolerate anesthesia. If the veterinarian recommends that surgery be delayed for any other reason, seek a second opinion immediately. Delay in surgery will increase the chance of the stomach rotating if it hasn't already, or will decrease the chance of the dog surviving if rotation has occurred.

Following is an excerpt of a letter that illustrates some of these points. "I noticed Kelly [an Irish Setter] attempting to vomit with nothing coming up. Grass? Chicken bone? I watched her and we continued to walk. She was happy and greeted people, wagging her tail, ... and had fun. We went home and Kelly went upstairs where she attempted to vomit several times. I immediately called my vet. Kelly and I arrived at the veterinarian's office within five minutes of the phone call. I told the veterinarian that Kelly had vomited two or three times with nothing coming up. I said that she looked a little broad around the ribs. The veterinarian did a physical examination and concluded that Kelly's problem was just a "stomach ache." ... I was directed to give her Pepto Bismol®. I took Kelly home and she lay down on the bed. About 45 minutes later she went out to the back yard. When I went out 10 minutes later, I found her bloated up. I grabbed her, took her back to the veterinary hospital, but she died on the operating table." (Comment: There is no guarantee that if radiographs had been taken during the first veterinary visit, Kelly's outcome would have been different. However, radiographs might have confirmed the presence of gastric dilatation or volvulus, and thus the need for immediate gastric decompression and surgery.) Be prepared -- Teamwork between you and your veterinarian is your dog's best hope when it comes to bloat.

For more information on the early signs of bloat, talk with your veterinarian. Ask what treatment he/she recommends for bloat, and if their hospital has a 24-hour emergency service.

--Larry Glickman, VMD, DrPh


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LukaMom

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Reply with quote  #119 

My 160lb Malamute got bloat - I got home from bible study, noticed something was wrong w/Kodiak - got him into the van (pure adrenaline-I only weigh 105) and rushed to ER (less than 4 min from my house) and they had to do emergency surgery that second - I had like 2 seconds to say "be strong and I love you" when they took him back.  Scariest thing EVER!!!  He survived it - it was a rough recovery on the poor guy - but he made it through.  Then diagnosed w/bone cancer a year later and I lost him Feb. 07.  Best friend I ever had.  Now Luka - the love bug Mastiff is here healing our hearts and cracking us up...but I am ever paranoid of bloat - once you go through that you really watch for it!!!  Follow your instincts if your dog doesn't seem 'right' - is pacing, panting and generally looks uncomfortable.  Bloat is such a timing thing - you have to get to the ER FAST!!!

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Reply with quote  #120 
 


Save this illustration!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #121 
Dr. D. Twedt was involved with the study done on bloat funded by the Morris Animal Foundation. I sent him the technique illustrated in an earlier post above and this is his response and my follow up response.....

Quote:
In my experience that will sometimes work but many times it does not.
  I advise with any bloating dogs get a gastropexy to prevent from
reoccuring.  I often suggest prophylactic gastropexy in lines having
problems.   We usually do it via laparoscopy a quick 30 min procedure..
  Research needed though there is some evidence that motility may play a role.

David C. Twedt DVM, Diplomate ACVIM
Professor and Small Animal Section Chief
Department of Clinical Sciences
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523


"As we both know, there is a short timeline between onset and death, if some type of immediate intervention is not available. Very often a vet is not close by, or available at certain hours. Gastropexy will certainly help down the road, but when bloat initially occurs the average owner is clueless & helpless at that moment. I agree with prophylactic measures, but often there is little history of prior bloating within the line in question. Do you feel that hyper-motility might be a factor and if so, would a "slowing down" of motility through a Librax type of product be indicated in high risk candidates?"

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"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #122 

A response from Dr. M. Pletcher who was involved with a study on bloat at Purdue.

Quote:

Dear Steve,

Your description makes sense to me but I am completely unqualified to provide an opinion about it.  I am a geneticist by training and profession and don't really deal with the physiology of the disease.  A vet would be a much better person to ask.

Thanks for sharing this with me though.

Mat

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #123 

http://pets.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1476592120.cms

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Goats-3480/Bloating-miniature-goats.htm

The possible connection............

http://www.moldpets.org/Mycotoxin%20FAQ.htm


The possible preventative...............

Calcium Montmorillonite

See Eileen's thread ..."Let's get dirty"!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #124 
http://www.mrcrottweiler.org/updates/bloat1.pdf

http://www.mrcrottweiler.org/updates/bloat2.pdf


Required reading!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #125 

buumpp


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #126 
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_dogs_cough_up_hairballs

Yes they can, but it's not as frequent as in cats, nor as intense.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #127 

http://www.procto-med.com/gastric-volvulus-stomach-volvulus/

Key excerpt:

Quote:

Frequency of the Stomach Volvulus

Because many cases of chronic volvulus are not diagnosed, the incidence and prevalence of gastric volvulus is unknown. Ten to 20% of cases occur in children, usually before age 1 year, but cases have been reported in children up to age 10 years. Gastric volvulus in children is often secondary to congenital diaphragmatic defects. The condition is uncommon in adults younger than 50 years. Males and females are equally affected.


I might add, that this is a rare occurrence in humans. The reason, in my view, is that humans walk upright!

One can note that the frequency is greater in children under 1 year of age. Typically, it's at a time when children are crawling on all fours! This would increase the chances of rotation. Adults over 50 also seem to trend in keeping with the stats of older dogs as well.

Sometimes common sense can Trump medical models, vis a vis corrective measures, which can be taken at the onset of torsion.

We should not discount certain clues in humans, that can increase our collective understanding of this process in other creatures as well!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Steph

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Reply with quote  #128 

So when someone's dog because of the Oifer method, who is going to be liable?


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #129 
Steph,
 
The method won't kill the dog!

Bloat will kill the dog!

So when someone's dog dies from you bashing this method, who will be liable?


If you read what the researchers have stated, then in my view, it's worth the try, but you can continue to bash the idea, if you please to do so!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #130 

In lieu of Erika's issue with Chance and the subsequent internet study that was mentioned being done by Battaglia et al, it may be of interest to recognize that this forthcoming study is not scientific. Although using a broad based consensus, it's mostly anecdotal and relies on past memory for most of the responses. I know, because I was part of the study and even though it may be informative, I don't believe anything of substance will emerge from this technique in data gathering!

Bloat will continue to exist in many breeds, as it's onset is multilateral in most instances and at best, one can only hope for reductions in it's occurance, as we try to tailor food, exercise & genetics in order to stem the frequency of onset.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Tracy

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Reply with quote  #131 
having read the study I beleive it goes against most everything I know about the body, digestion ect toward bloat
My response from another board.

wow, that study goes against everything I think would cause it!!  esp the running around after feeding, it would to me anyway seem to increase the chance of bloat. Digestion is a low priority function, so if a dog has consumed a meal, the starts running and playing the body naturally shunts of the majority of blood flow to the muscles that are used for activity ( higher priority), allowing the food to sit in the stomach and build gas!  Just my thoughts on it anyway.  and one more insight, I believe, and it may just be ancedotely but I think we have seen more intact males bloat than females. which again to me I think a factor in bloating is having an intact males(s) around a female in season, raises the stress, reduces the food down to gulping, increases the running around before and after eating, an def increases the water intake


 

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Reply with quote  #132 
Morris Animal Foundation has been doing bloat studies for as long as I can remember and are no closer to knowing what causes bloat. 

In my many years in Danes, it has been a source of concern for so many Giant breed owners.  This is what I have seen.  Many cases of bloat are in certain lines so it's pretty obvious there is a hereditary link to it.  Genetic......maybe.  I know of dogs who have bloated during a thunderstorm with a history of tremendous anxiety during storms.  Bitches often boat during their heat cycle. 

I have never had a dog bloat and I've had this breed since 1964 and my breeding program always takes that into consideration.

One thing I do suggest for everyone with a susceptible breed and that is to get a tube kit and learn how to tube a dog.  It's not hard.  I've done it many times to dogs I've had in my care and for friends.  It really give you the time you need to get to a vet.  As far as the needle is concerned, that is rarely used and I would never do it under any circumstances.

It's odd that my first breed, Standard Poodles, never ever bloated when I was involved with them and now it is included as one of the breeds that is susceptible.

I have my own theories.

A


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Steph

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Reply with quote  #133 
It is not known what causes bloat. Theories are from stress, exercise after eating, cheap food causing gas, genetics and it goes on and on....

In talking to my Vet, any dog can bloat from a pug to a Mastiff. He also mentioned a study about a muscle attached the stomach and another part of the body becoming loose in older dogs. I do not know the technical names and would dare to guess. Will see him on the 4th and will have him write it down.

In TroyP's case I am  attributing to just coming off the road from 7 days, not being fed on his schedule, the excitement of being gone then coming home the day before and in the middle of changing his food. our room was extremely hot at the hotel and asked to changed but they were booked, the entire town was booked. There is not a history of it on either side of his pedigree.

He is tacked and doing well, still the crazy puppy who lived through being born almost a week early and then bloating at 7 months. He just turned a year  on the 7th.

He is currently training in SAR. We will be hitting the road for shows as soon as the weather clears and warms up. Next to Tessa, of course.


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Steve Jobs
erikam

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Reply with quote  #134 
Quote:
n lieu of Erika's issue with Chance and the subsequent internet study that was mentioned being done by Battaglia et al,


Just be clear - I think cross posting is very rude, and I think lifting a conversation from another board and placing it on a different one is not only rude to the original poster (who in this case would be me) but also a disservice as it is inevitably devoid of context.  The other board is open to anyone to read, you need not be a member. 

That said, here is the study referenced,
http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/bloat-survey.php
Here is an excerpt:
-------------------------------------------------

Data taken from a more recent study (2010) will be reported in the months ahead.

The study has been titled: "Risk factors for surgical gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs: an internet-based survey"

The investigators are: Marko Pipan, DVM1; Dorothy Cimino Brown, DVM, MSCE, DACVS1; Dr. Carmelo L. Battaglia, PhD2; Cynthia M. Otto, DVM, PhD, DACVECC1

  1. Section of Critical Care (Pipan, Otto) Section of Surgery (Brown), Department of Clinical Studies-Philadelphia, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, 3900 Delancey Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104
  2. American Kennel Club, 260 Madison Ave, New York, NY 10016

Until the final report is published only a limited amount of summary information is available. The following is the abstract of the manuscript submitted to the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association for consideration.

ABSTRACT

Objective – To evaluate risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) in a large number of privately-owned dogs across a wide geographic area. Design – Internet-based case-control survey. Animals – 2551 privately-owned dogs.

Procedures – Respondents were recruited by posting the electronic link to the survey on websites for dog owners; the information was also disseminated at meetings of dog owners, newsletters and email lists for dog owners and breeders, owner-oriented dog publications, and through emails forwarded by participants. The questionnaire addressed dog specific, management, environmental and personality associated risk factors for GDV in dogs.

Results – Factors significantly associated with an increased risk of GDV were being fed dry kibble. Other related factors were found to be: anxiety, being born in the 1990s, being a family pet, and spending at least 5 hours a day with the owner. Factors associated with a decreased risk of GDV were playing with other dogs and running the fence after meals, fish and egg dietary supplements, and spending equal time indoors and outdoors. A significant interaction between sex and neuter status was observed with intact females having the highest risk for GDV.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance – In dogs with a high risk of GDV, regular moderate daily and postprandial activity appears to be beneficial. Feeding only commercial dry dog food may not be the best choice for dogs at risk; however supplements with fish or eggs may reduce this risk. The effect of neuter status on GDV risk requires further characterization.

=====================================

and here is my comment on said study:
"
I am looking forward to the new data, as it sure does seem counter-intuitive, especially 'A significant interaction between sex and neuter status was observed with intact females having the highest risk for GDV.'
I don't know - will be interesting to see the final paper ....I am not certain that I am loving the methodology ("Internet-based case-control survey.") huuummmmm (and I must admit as well, there are individuals whose associations automatically set my bat-senses to tingling, fair or not)"

Steve, I would ask that you refrain from proxy-cross-posting-referencing  of anything I have written on other forums in the future, surely my words/thoughts/experiences are not of such uniqueness that you are unable to provide your own, original text.

Erika M,



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Reply with quote  #135 
Sorry if you were offended Erika, as my post did not cross & paste your original content verbatim. Just thought the generality would add to existing info on this bloat thread. It was targeting the study, not you, and any reference to you was only done to credit you with surfacing that study in your posting from another board. I thought it was conscientious, but no good deed goes unpunished!

Mea culpa...........

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #136 
usus cautio non culpa
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #137 

It's been pondered well, and I hope you have done the same!


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #138 
Interestingly, the only factor known to increase the likelihood of survival from GDV is time from occurance to surgery. Also, interestingly, I have seen some unfortunate dogs that are severely distended and go undiagnosed due to how deep their chest is. In fact, I would say, if the vet is a few hours away and your dog is pacing, agitated or retching/ having unproductive vomiting I would get in the car and be on my way. Know how to take their heart rate also, this is excrutiatingly painful for them and, honestly an elevated HR would be reason enough for me to xray. Also, some dogs will produce phlegm that they swallow so they are able to hack up some fluid, because it never makes it to the stomach. I saw someone saying that they would pass a tube, obviously we all use our own judgement, but if the stomach is devitalized, any tube strong enough to get through a twisted esophageal sphincter could rupture the stomach, dumping stomach contents into the abdomen.
 I do use trocharization ( which is what steve is describing passing a needle through the skin into the stomach). However, only when I know I am going to surgery, as the spleen is out of its normal position and can get lacerated. In the end whatever you decide to do should be in the car on the way to the vet. Both of these procedures can potentially compromise your pet and prolong surgery which is never good.
Betsie
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Reply with quote  #139 
Laura Nelson DVM was given a grant to further study bloat in dogs awhile back. I contacted her to see if anything has progressed in that regard. Her response is as follows in an e-mail I received this morning..................



Quote:
Thank you for your interest in our study. As yet, we are still in the relatively early stages of data gathering (approximately 30% of the way completed at this time).  I hope to have some results to report next year. 
 
Sincerely,

Laura Nelson
 
Laura L. Nelson, DVM, MS, DACVS
Assistant Professor
Small Animal Surgery
Dept. of Small Animal Clinical Sciences
Michigan State University
(517) 353-5420

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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