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gwenstone

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Reply with quote  #51 
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I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that there are some breeders that just don't like brindles!

So do I. Brindle is the only color that brings a never boring coat on the Mastiff. Brindles are always different, always new patterns. After a while you get tired looking at solid colors. They all are the same.

Carl



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collie

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Reply with quote  #52 
As I write I'm looking at two litter brothers, my breeding, from a nicely brindled dam and a fawn sire. One is a fawn brindle with a somewhat smudged coat, but with normal coverage, the other is an apricot brindle who is lightly and unevenly striped. I've taken a quick snap as illustration. (Please don't think I keep them in a tiny pen, that space opens on to a big fenced forecourt with graveled and grassed areas.)

Clearly the detais of the brindle pattern depend on a number of genes, and so is polygenic, even though the determination of whether or not a dog is brindle seems to depend on a single gene. I do wonder if the apricot background affects it, only because I have seen more lightly striped apricots than fawns.

Ursa, mentioned by Jess (Hi, Jess), was a gorgeous bitch despite her unusual colouring. In my judging, I make no bones about the fact that colour/pattern is the least of my considerations. At The Swedish Mastiff Club Show in 2005, I picked a bitch with a heavily shaded coat. She was a high quality specimen that some judges would have ignored, but that is up to them.

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #53 

Modifier Genes

Instead of masking the effects of another gene, a gene can modify the expression of a second gene. In mice, coat color is controlled by the B gene. The B allele conditions black coat color and is dominant to the b allele that produces a brown coat. The intensity of the color, either black or brown is controlled by another gene, the D gene. At this gene, the dominant D allele controls full color whereas the recessive d allele conditions a dilute or faded expression of the color expression at the B gene. Therefore, if a cross is made among mice that are BdDd, the following phenotypic distribution will be seen:

  • 9 B_D_ (black)
  • 3 B_dd (dilute black)
  • 3 bbD_ (brown)
  • 1 bbdd (dilute brown)

The D gene does not mask the effect of the B gene, rather it modifies its expression.

Modifier genes - genes that have small quantitative effects on the level of expression of another gene


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"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #54 
I agree that color, aside from mask, is not overly important in this breed, but it still presents interesting conundrums, if we try to determine values based on the OEM Standard, which says nothing about that aspect of color.

Once again, two bitches equal in every way except full coverage in their brindle pattern. One is brindled on only one side and the other is totally covered.

Which dog do you place before the other and why?

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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collie

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Reply with quote  #55 
Sure, you pick the fully covered brindle because it looks better, but think how likely it is that all other factors are equal. I once picked a dog with hardly any mask, and I like a good mask. It was at an open show with a small Mastiff entry, and it was otherwise easily the best Mastiff.

(By the way, that show had my proudest moment in judging, because I also judged Any  Variety Not Separately Classified (AVNSC, the joke being it's actually Any  Variety Not Seriously Considered) and I picked a Tervuren, whose owner told me afterwards that that was the dog's 100th win.)

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #56 

Therefore, there is a value placed on brindle patterns, even if unwritten?


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #57 
bump - relevant to recent "reverse brindle" topic

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Joeycorso91

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Reply with quote  #58 
His name is Cassius ( 5mo. Old/55lbs.)  hes a reverse blue brindle or blue apricot for short 





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Reply with quote  #59 
Joey, do you have papers on him?
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Joeycorso91

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Reply with quote  #60 
Yes he is out Pinnacle Cane Corso in phx,Az. ICCF registered and AKC


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Reply with quote  #61 
Joey, he would not be considered a true reverse brindle in Mastiff circles and his coloring (blue cast) would also not be desirable (for a Mastiff).

His coloration is just fine for a Cane Corso, so not to worry!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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JkinBlack

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Reply with quote  #62 

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #63 
Bear in mind that the term can be misleading.

In Boxers, the reverse of the reverse in Mastiffs, is considered the reverse!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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GinaG

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Reply with quote  #64 
So is reverse brindle incorrect brindle? just with a different name?
Reverse brindle came out in the 90s when Scott delivered the phrase ringside as I remember. Only in Mastiffs that is. I love a true correct brindle with plenty of stripes showing the undercolor between either fawn or apricot. With nice pigment on muzzle and ears. To me that is a brindle. Why do we have to have so many lables? And it's not in our standard right?

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Reply with quote  #65 
Reverse brindle has been called that in the 70's as well!

The Boxer's reverse brindle is what we call correct in the Mastiff. But as long as the stripes are covering the entire body, in a uniform fashion, both brindle patterns are essentially correct.

For the brindle Mastiff to have been considered a cross between dog & tiger 2000+ years ago, it's logical that the reverse brindle represented the preferred pattern back then. Today we consider the reverse pattern less desirable, but it should not be seen as such, since the standards do not clarify any fault in this regard.

From a utilitarian advantage, a very dark brindle would have an edge over a lighter brindle, during night work. Gamekeepers would favor the dark over the light.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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GinaG

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Reply with quote  #66 
Thanks Steve...I wasn't "in" Mastiffs then. But what if the brindling is broken and scattered? Is that still considered correct? You are right, the standard does not specify, but I still like a brindle Mastiff to show true color.
G

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #67 
"True" color is a debatable conception.

Every age may have their own concept of what true actually represents.

The standard sets the tone and based on the standard you follow, there can be a broad interpretation of correct!

The AKC standard states ....."Brindle should have fawn or apricot as a background color which should be completely covered with very dark stripes."

Define ....completely?

One interpretation can mean, stripes all over the body, so that no gaps or missing areas are present. Another interpretation can mean, full (total) black stripe coverage, with background fawn or apricot defining the black stripe.

No mention is made of marbling, which seems to be the nature of most dark brindles.

A well defined black stripe, cannot be so close to one another as to lose the stripe effect and turn it into marbling instead.

So many interpretations can be debated as to true, or correct coloring for a brindle. There was a time, that apricot as a ground, was not part of the brindle color in the standard.

Presently, most forms of brindle are acceptable under the UK standard, while the AKC standard is more specific (black stripes) in worded expectations, even if not in greater clarified breadth of it's interpretation.
One can then assume, that the AKC standard is specific, if one wishes to follow the letter of the wording, but those who own marbled brindles, will naturally oppose such directives!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #68 

This is my boy Ch. Kiokee Tuff-E-Nuff--he was bred 3 times--he produced 2 puppies patterned the same as him-- light apricot brindle, and 1 that was a light fawn brindle--none were ever bred  so I can't tell you if the "pattern" was carried on.
Tuffy also produced dark brindles and very dark apricots.

He was my first champion that I handled and finished by myself--and often he was the only brindle in the ring.  He was my "heart dog"--and loved me above all others--just ask my kids!   I cremated him when he died--he will be buried with me.

I attached a photo of my T-beau--he is not as light as Tuffy--but you can clearly see how his mask stands out from his coat pattern--so to me he is a "light ' brindle.

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Reply with quote  #69 
Technicality:

Fawn and apricot are colors
Brindle and solid are patterns

**************

Based on how I believe the standard is commonly interpreted, it is my opinion that it would be improved if the word "completely" were replaced with the words "consistently and evenly".

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #70 
The OEMC standard originally stated ...."Apricot or silver, fawn, or dark fawn-brindle."

This has been amended to read "...Apricot, fawn, or brindle".

So still no in-depth clarification as to the qualities of the brindle, or shades of apricot & fawn.

The AKC version recognized the nebulous nature of the wording and amended it to read as Erika posted.

Yet, we have no precedent to validate the AKC's version of their correction! It was done to validate the consensus of opinion regarding correct brindle patterning, but not anchored entirely in historical substance.

In the Boxer, this patterning is viewed slightly different.....AKC...."The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling)."

UK version..."Colour
Fawn or brindle. White markings acceptable not exceeding one-third of ground colour.
Fawn: Various shades from dark deer red to light fawn.
Brindle: Black stripes on previously described fawn shades, running parallel to ribs all over body. Stripes contrast distinctly to ground colour, neither too close not too thinly dispersed. Ground colour clear, not intermingling with stripes."


So one can see that (AKC) reverse brindling can mean different things to different people and is breed dependent!

The precedent for the UK version, was essentially based on Wynn's indifference to color.

"Colour, after all, is the last requisite, since you may always breed, in a few generations, any colour you please. The purest fawns have descended from the most decided brindles, and, from time to time, the white face especially has and will occur, and generally in the finest specimens, and those which most closely resemble the paintings of their progenitors."....Wynn

Wynn then goes on to state, under his pointed scale...("a good brindle preferable or equal to fallow").

Today, we don't believe that a brindle should be favored over a fawn, or apricot.

I would disagree with Erika's view, that greater clarification requires hundreds of pages, in order to obtain a more comprehensive understanding of the standard. As we can clearly see in the Boxer's standard, pertaining to color, properly used wording can enhance & clarify meaning, without becoming too elaborate!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #71 
Any change must be done with mindfulness. Otherwise, we get non traditional (paraphrase) add-ons, as in the revised UK color wording, which once proposed, was shot down!

Nothing wrong in revisions, if the revision is worthy. Many like to quote AKC over UK and others the reverse.

It's why I called for unification of both standards, so that we could all attempt to appear on one page regarding form.

Any unification would involve a revision. Comes with the territory.

Nothing hypocritical in seeking a comprehensive, well thought out and reworded standard revision.

I might add, that you were one of those who professed that change was not necessary, so I guess you were also opposed to this latest revision by UK. Yet, you don't seem to see the fallacy, or negative ramifications in having more than one standard!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #72 
If you recall Erika, I always stated that I would not be on any committee, if ever one was formed, to do just that! Thereby taking myself out of the equation!

My proposed standard was just done to show that changes & tweaking  can be done and was delivered only because Pallone demanded that I right something rather than just talk about it!

Just for the record!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #73 
So, would you consider this girl a properly marked fawn brindle or are the stripes not distinct enough?Name: Sable_2012_4th_in_Sweeps_(640x512)_(640x512).jpg, Views: 117, Size: 276.72 KB

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Reply with quote  #74 
Depends on the standard you adhere to and the interpretation!

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoX9akeZPmGAAKWiJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dbrindle%2Bmastiff%26phrase%3D1%26fr%3Dytff1-tyc%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D135&w=383&h=336&imgurl=1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_bl5dv2GvXgI%2FSTYhtCpkfnI%2FAAAAAAAAAVQ%2Fd2X8YQNOLxM%2Fs400%2FEng%2Bmastiff%2BBrindle.JPG&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcklargebreeds.blogspot.com%2F&size=29.1+KB&name=FRENCH+MASTIFF&p=brindle+mastiff&oid=07ab03ddb2fe4c4688a0037ebc005732&fr2=piv-web&fr=ytff1-tyc&tt=FRENCH%2BMASTIFF&b=121&ni=112&no=135&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=112abvtfd&sigb=13jpdh48m&sigi=12va3gvs5&.crumb=z34ueyzPId3

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #75 
*To see the image from the site above, paste the entire site provided into the info bar.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #76 
Personally, I believe that striping and marbling should carry equal weight, but the AKC specifically states stripes and no mention of marbling. therefore, clarification is need in the AKC version. The UK version just says brindle, which covers all ground, but Erika advocates for the AKC standard and therefore she should be asking for greater specificity.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #77 
CH .Beezaville Coram Judice

CH .Beezaville Coram Judice
h

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Reply with quote  #78 
Gregory,

That is a striking dog.  He is almost black.  How does that happen, genetically?

H

CH .Beezaville Coram Judice

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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #79 
Glad to see you asking for greater specificity!...LOL
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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #80 
And it's also the reason why I state that a photo cannot always be totally truthful about a dog. But let's not mention that, so your premise can remain intact!
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #81 





Quote:
Posted 06/04/08 at 01:12 PM Reply with quote #34The premise, is whether both dogs are the same, or different in the two photos.

I could put up two photos of different dogs, that would clearly show that they are not the same, nor share any minor similarities.

Photos can be deceiving and "cookie cutter" mastiffs will never come to pass.

But some photos are very telling, as our missions to Mars have proven!





 

Erika, as you can see in black & white from an earlier post I made in 2008!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
GREGORY

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Reply with quote  #82 
YES H
The umbrous polygenes Is one way to answer your question
 
It has already been mentioned that the type- of light pigment present in Mastiffs allows the presence of some dark tipped hairs, or sabling. The extent of this can amount to visually nil or very heavy shading, and this variation is attributed to the umbrous set of polygenes. These genes can lead to the so-called "smutty" coat. These polygenes may also have an effect on patterns such as brindling or the saddle pattern, but these probably have there own sets of polygenes. The saddle pattern seen on some dogs, including a few Mastiffs, may be the result of polygenes alone. In Mastiffs there may be polygenes affecting the width, frequency, intensity, and evenness of brindle stripes, but no research has been done. Other polygenes may affect mask. There are probably lots more sets of polygenes, but they are very hard to research, as their inheritance modes are so much more complex than the major genes.
 
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Reply with quote  #83 
Ok.  I am cross-eyed and confused.  Elah seems to be on the dark side (I could be wrong as I lack experience in identifying a lot of the things mentioned in the Breed Standard) so is he just Brindle or would he be categorized as Brindle with a sub category such as:  Light; Medium; Dark; or Reverse?
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #84 
You can use a sub category for illustrative purposes, but the standard is less demanding, or less specific.
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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Reply with quote  #85 
So then it is appropriate to go with Brindle no matter the amount/or lack thereof of striping?  I know the Standard says the base coat is to be Fawn or Apricot and the striping is black but from looking at him it almost appears as though he has a black base coat with Fawn stripes.  Is this normal or am I being too subjective in my interpretation?
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #86 
Quote:
So then it is appropriate to go with Brindle no matter the amount/or lack thereof of striping?


A dog can be considered brindle, if only one stripe appears.

A proper brindle should be covered evenly all over.

Stripes are stated in the AKC standard, but marbling is more typical in dark brindles.

It's why specificity, or simplification can cure all ills.



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
LindaGreesonRice

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Reply with quote  #87 
She is properly marked as far as I am concerned - and she is also properly put together! A beautiful bitch..
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Linda Greeson Rice
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http://www.bluequaker.com/Mastiffs.htm



We do not breed often, but we do our best to breed top quality mastiffs
with excellent pedigrees to back them up. All breedings are carefully planned to produce
the very best mastiffs, sound in both body and mind, beautiful and strong,
representing the true mastiff standard.

We fully test our dogs. We believe that a person that "just wants a pet" has a right
to own a beautiful, well bred dog that is sound and healthy
every bit as much as someone wanting a "show dog".
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Reply with quote  #88 
https://books.google.com/books?id=AQCQAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT171&lpg=PT171&dq=aristotle+on+brindle+dogs+tigers&source=bl&ots=iBqkT20z-T&sig=Fr-3VyQKulJVziXisf05QzhvEzA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIu_zr8KHbAhWExVkKHWWAATsQ6AEIjQEwDQ#v=onepage&q=aristotle%20on%20brindle%20dogs%20tigers&f=false
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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #89 
Therefore, Aristotle must have witnessed definitive stripes on these brindles. They were most likely not darkly marbled, but probably had apricot grounds and distinctive stripes.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!

SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #90 
example

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!

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