This Forum is brought to you by The Mastiff Sweet Spot and Friends of the Forum.
Register Calendar
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #1 
Quote:

As for reverse brindle, that is a term used in North America to describe a dog with an extremely high concentration of brindle striping. In some parts of Canada, the same colour is called "seal" brindle. Elsewhere in the world, it is just called dark brindle. Note that "extremely high" does not mean just a lot - and most of the dogs people describe as "reverse" brindle are not A dog that is reverse brindle has the appearance of being black - it is only upon inspection that you will see (and should be able to clearly see) the fawn. This is "reverse" in the sense that it appears that the dog has a black base coat, and some fawn striping. In fact, it is an extremely high concentration of black stripes on fawn ground colour - just like any other shade of brindle.



The above is from the boxer board and it was the way I learned the term many years ago.

Most Mastiff folks seem to use the term in "reverse" (pun intended) as pertaining to a very light brindle ( i.e. a light fawn or apricot with few black stripes overall, is commonly called "reverse brindle").

Therefore, a very dark brindle is the reverse brindle and the light to medium brindle is the generally accepted term of just plain "brindle"!

No doubt this will be challenged, as we tend to become familiar with erroneous terms and then apply it to represent common concepts. But it would be good if we can all be on one page, or just drop the term "reverse brindle" altogether and use light brindle, medium brindle and dark brindle as the representative terminology to describe a brindle's appearance!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #2 
Well you can count me amongst those who always think of a "reverse" as the light brindle.  I love a dark brindle and have always thought of them as the correct type of brindle.
Almost everyone I know thinks the same.  Is it possible that it is different for the boxer than for the mastiff? 
Janine.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #3 
I'm in the dark on this one Janine!

I have heard it spoken of both ways by a number of well known people in dogs over the last 40 years and I can't place a handle on origin, or the basis of proper usage.

That's why I'd prefer to use light brindle, to dark brindle, as terminology rather than "reverse".

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #4 

Quote:

The coat colour of a boxer dog is either fawn (aka red) or brindle with a black mask. The shades of fawn range from a pale tan to deep deer red. Brindles have the same range of background colours overlaid with black stripes, the concentration of which range from just a few stripes to such heavy concentration that the dog has the appearance of fawn stripes on a dark background. Depending on the shade of the base colour and concentration of stripes, a brindle may be described as a ‘light’, ‘golden’, ‘fawn’, ‘red’, ‘mahogany’, ‘dark’, ‘reverse’ or ‘seal’ brindle (those are just descriptions though – the correct term for any shade of brindle is brindle). White markings are permissible, providing that these do not exceed 1/3 of the total coat.



http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/view_boxer-coat-colour.htm

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #5 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindle


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #6 
From AKC's glossary:

Quote:

Brindle A marking pattern used to describe many breeds, usually in conjunction with another color. Layering of black hairs in regions of lighter color (usually, fawn, brown, or gray) producing a tiger-striped pattern. Brindle is often used to describe Great Danes, Bulldogs, and Boxers. In Boxers, Reverse Brindle may occur; i.e., there is such a heavy concentration of black striping that the fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (appears black with fawn stripes). Color definitions may vary by breed. Always check the breed standard for the definitive color description.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #7 
It probably just comes down to personal preference anyway, but I think there is a difference between light brindle and reverse brindle. 
I saw a boxer at work who was tan with black stripes, fine for a boxer but first thing I thought was "reverse".  Did not like it one bit.  I have always thought the background should be black with apricot or fawn stripes, not apricot or fawn with black stripes.
Some may prefer the light, I prefer the dark, I know type is more important and colour is just colour but a nice dark apricot brindle is very eye catching.
A lighter brindle looks wishy washy to me.
Janine.
gwenstone

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
I know type is more important and colour is just colour

I agree but to be honest, I really would have a hard time deciding to breed to a typey reversed or light brindle. I just can't get over this color. I really find it ugly on a Mastiff. I LOVE dark brindles and certainly the apricot brindles. I'm not that fond of apricot though.  A slight problem when you want to breed, LOL.

Carl


__________________
Carl & Bes Van Bael



"Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world."- Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881
"Let him that would move the world first move himself."-Socrates
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #9 

Personal tastes aside, it would seem from the AKC glossary, that "reverse brindle" means just the opposite of the way most Mastiff folks use the term!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #10 
I agree Carl, colour can be a real turn off.  I have always been a brindle person, I have had a couple of fawns and one apricot over the years but the majority of my dogs have been dark brindles.  I am picky with fawns too lol, I like a "clean" fawn, dont like smutty ones so I guess I am just a fussy person when it comes to colour.  I do think though, when looking at a dog, colour can take a lot away from a good dog.
Janine.
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #11 
Their glossary may just be a blanket statement, what is right for a boxer is wrong for a mastiff.
From The Complete Mastiff.
Brindles also vary from being very nearly black in colour all over, with just a very few faint stripes, to an apricot brindle where the stripes are a very attractive apricot colour.  However, a 'reverse brindle', where you have a light background (instead of a dark background) with a very few faint stripes of another colour is not desirable.
This goes against the glossary but I agree with it.
Janine.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #12 

There's a difference between preference and correct application of terms.

A dark brindle may be preferred over a light colored brindle, but the term "reverse" may be being applied incorrectly!

The use of fawn, or apricot, striping is also used incorrectly in my view, as the ground color is always fawn or apricot with the brindle being the black overlay, which creates the black chevron pattern.

There can be no fawn/apricot stripes as fawn/apricot is not a pattern, but brindle (black) is!

Now, a "reverse" color can be applied to any color in which the "norm" is reversed into it's opposite. So if the dark brindle is the norm, then a "reverse" would be the light brindle in one breed and if the light brindle is the norm, then the reverse would be the dark brindle.

The Standard is not specific in this regard and I feel that "reverse" is a euphemism that's taken hold over the years!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:

Any shade of brindle, fawn or red; colour to be pure and clear.  A slight white marking on chest permissible. Other white markings undesirable. Black muzzle essential, toning off towards eyes, with dark markings around eyes contributing to expression.

 

From the Bullmastiff Standard.

 

As the "night watchman's dog" one would think that a dark brindle would be preferred over "any shade of brindle"!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
JennMarie

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 644
Reply with quote  #14 
My two cents:

They are all just brindle dogs.  Brindle is a color pattern and from my reading it can not be reversed in a literal manner of speaking.  Coming from APBTs this term was always funny to me, because in most APBT circles the term "reverse brindle" is regarded as a BYB type of term and frowned on.  They use terms like red, chocolate, blue, and mocha a lot in discribing the underlying color.  What is right or wrong I have no idea lol, but to me they are brindles reguardless. 


__________________
Jenn

RAWR
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #15 
As in most discussions, differences of opinion will reign supreme, in my opinion it is just what individuals believe in and like, brindles have never been just brindles to me, the darker the better and I always prefer apricot brindle to fawn brindle.
I dont care what the AKC Glossary states, I dont care what is right or wrong, I just know what I like.
I know this is no answer because I dont think there is one answer, people will continue to go for what takes their eye, and when I look at a what I consider to be a good brindle my first impression is that of a black dog with nice even markings.
What is "correct" for another breed is not "correct" for a mastiff no matter how closely related they are.
Janine.
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #16 

I just got this off a site called Reverse Brindle Mastiff.  I agree with this dog being a reverse but according to your AKC Glossary it is not.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: emma_bedrock_rev_brin_158.jpg, Views: 307, Size: 51.46 KB 

Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #17 
This bitch is almost black, you can see some of the brindle striping but I much prefer her to the other one.  There is no way would say this bitch is apricot with black markings.  So she would be incorrect???
Janine.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Picture_158.jpg, Views: 363, Size: 94.09 KB 

Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #18 
From the Australian Kennel Club Glossary of Terms:

Brindle:  A fine even mixture of black hairs with hairs of a lighter colour, usually gold, brown or grey, usually in stripes.

I disagree with this too, the background colour is different for many breeds, I have seen blue brindle staffs, red brindle boxers etc.



Janine.
Lynai

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 979
Reply with quote  #19 
Janine, good illustrations...then according to the AKC the lower one is going to be the reverse.

Years ago, I thought the lower one was the reverse, then someone "corrected" me and said the top one was the reverse, so for years now I have had them backwards?? now I'm so confused!

It's funny how tastes differ when it comes to coloring. I much prefer the color of the dog on top. But I wouldn't kick the lower dog off my bed if I found it there I have my color preferences but there isn't one color I cannot stand to look at, I like them all, just varying degrees.


__________________
Faith Walk Mastiffs
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #20 
Hi Lynai,
That's right, according to the Glossary from the AKC the lower one is reverse.
According to website I took this photo from, The Australian Kennel Club and The Complete Mastiff the top one is reverse.
When I look at both I say the top one is reverse brindle. 
If you did reverse the colour on the top bitch she would be really nice, she is a lovely bitch but the colour takes it away in my eyes.
I agree 100% about tastes being different, it is funny how we can all see things in all walks of life differently.
Janine.

SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #21 
Click image for larger version - Name: Picture_158.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 94.09 KB  
The above brindle, is genetically speaking, a brindle, no doubt, but the detailed brindled pattern is absent and the dog appears to be a black with some mottle.

Stripes, or marbling are a distinctive aspect of a "good" (as the old ones would say) brindle pattern.

Although I personally like the color of the dog pictured, I must leave those subjective thoughts at the door, so to speak, and draw upon the historical range of brindled patterns that relate best to the issue.

There are references of almost black Mastiffs, but they don't seem to have been in favor given the number of "Tiger" handles affixed to even the earliest pedigrees.

After all, tigers have stripes and without those stripes, they wouldn't look much like tigers. Some of the early founders felt that the brindle was the "original" color of the Mastiff. I don't believe that to be the case, but it was an important color for sure and part of the attraction was the distinctive pattern that evoked the association to the largest jungle cat in the world.

As we breed towards darker and darker brindles, they will become brindle in genotype only, as their pattern will become less distinctive as they fade to almost black in greater numbers.

They say, "everything in moderation", should this not hold up for the intensity and range of the brindle color as we have come to know it?

Almost every shade of fawn, apricot and brindle is acceptable, based on the generalized wording in the Standard. In my view, that does not mean that purity of color should share in equal status to less than pure colors .

For example, a silver fawn that is correct in every way, should outpoint a similar silver fawn that is dirty (smudged with extended black). Just as white on a brindle should not carry the same weight as no white. Why then, should we equate equal status to no stripes on a brindle?

Being an accepted color, does not mean more, or equally desirable, even if unique!





__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #22 
Yes, she is very black Steve, you can see more stripes in other pics but she would be one of the darkest bitches I have seen.   But the question is, which one is reverse.  Technically, both of these bitches are apricot brindles, which one is reverse and which is not???
Janine.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #23 
If we assume that an average brindle represents the mean, then both are reversed as pictured! Each to each extreme.

Or, we can abandon the term "reversed", so as not to confuse and simply say jet black brindle, or very dark brindle, all the way to very light brindle, in order to complete the spectrum. Another suggestion is "reversed to the dark", or "reversed to the light"!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
Sandragon

Avatar / Picture

SUPER POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 4,215
Reply with quote  #24 
In Danes the black or even dark brindle is incorrect. They want stripes, they dont even want marbling. They want stripes! But in the last couple of years the darker and marbling is being seen more and more in Danes.

Our standard state Completely covered in stripes so that gives the impression of the darker being correct.

I agree we should probably just say light, med or dark brindle.

__________________
Lorie
Sandragon Mastiffs
Where Mastiffs and Dragons play!
http://sandragonmastiff.com


This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #25 
If I were to say that a piece of paper should be completely covered with horizontal lines, does that mean we should not see the lines?

Completely covered in stripes, means total coverage, not partial coverage. That means the entire dog must express the brindle stripe, not just certain parts leaving other parts without stripes!

It also does not mean the absence of stripes, or almost black.

A tiger has stripes that completely covers it's body.
Yet we "see" the stripes, otherwise they would not be called stripes!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #26 

One can make a case that this Dane does not exhibit complete coverage, although streaks of brindle is on most parts of the dog, the pattern is sparse and not "complete". In a Mastiff this end of the spectrum, or "reverse to the light" would be incorrect!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #27 

This brindle also exhibits less than complete coverage. The wording in our standard was meant to fault such brindle patterns and should not be taken literally as wanting very dark to black brindles by it's meaning of "full coverage".


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
collie

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 2,430
Reply with quote  #28 
I agree the phrase "reverse brindle" is confusing because it means opposite things to different people, and I'm not aware of it appearing in any breed's standard. (The boxer standard only mentions "the appearance of reverse brindle".) Also it doesn't mean anything genetically, because there is no single gene which creates either effect. In the nineties a dog was being exhibited in the Birmingham (UK) area which was completely black. The owner said you could see a marking on one toe, but I couldn't see it. If that dog was used at stud, more black "Mastiffs" may appear. I am suspicious of it being a cross, because of it's small size and untypical head. I suspect a Labrador cross, though Dane is possible.

Incidentally, I rescued a stray black Labrador-Dane cross when I lived in Philadelphia (I brought him home on the subway: who was going to challenge me, he was huge). Had I not found his owner, I would have kept him. He was like The Hound of the Baskervilles! I walked him through a group of hospital union workers picketing, and they parted like the Red Sea.

__________________
"Nothing is foolproof, because fools are ingenious"
ConnecticutYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 379
Reply with quote  #29 

Using the term "Ugly" is a strong word.

As Professor Tolkien once said: "we were all Orcs in the Great War."

A dog is either brindle or it's not!

Mark


__________________
Mark and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack

A standard poorly expressed and badly drafted can lead to grave errors and to the creation of teratological creatures.
gwenstone

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Using the term "Ugly" is a strong word that one should hesitate to use.

Why??? It's about a coat color. This doesn't say anything about the Mastiff.
I like a BMW. But a BMW in olive green I find ugly. What's wrong with that?
When I see a beautiful woman with an ugly coat, then I have the right to say... look at that woman with that ugly coat. The woman remains beautiful but the coat would make her less attractive. The designer of that coat probably won't agree with my opinion but who cares... we're living in a free country so I have the right to find it ugly.
Same with brindles. I find reverse brindle an ugly coloring. This has nothing to do with the quality of the Mastiff wearing that color or even the Standard. This is my personal taste.

Carl


__________________
Carl & Bes Van Bael



"Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world."- Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881
"Let him that would move the world first move himself."-Socrates
ConnecticutYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 379
Reply with quote  #31 
Choosing a dog or bitch based on coat color when breeding could certainly limit one's choices. Breeding is hard enough without adding coat color to one's palette.

The increased prevalence of dark/very dark brindles that lack stripes of any kind concerns me more than the wording itself.

Mark



__________________
Mark and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack

A standard poorly expressed and badly drafted can lead to grave errors and to the creation of teratological creatures.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #32 

If I think BMW's are ugly, but like green cars, should I go for therapy?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
gwenstone

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #33 
No... but you could go live in the midwest.

For those rednecks: just kidding guys... 

__________________
Carl & Bes Van Bael



"Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world."- Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881
"Let him that would move the world first move himself."-Socrates
CChauncey

Avatar / Picture

SUPER POWER POSTER>FORUM SUPPORTER
Registered:
Posts: 4,119
Reply with quote  #34 

VERY likely you should!    Just out of curiosity, what kind of green cars do you like???  Back on point, this thread is very interesting and I sure understand now why it's so confusing too - especially to us Newbies!


__________________
Cindy

It is wiser to find out than suppose.
- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #35 

Well I once owned a Triumph TR4A in British racing green and a dark green Caddy, but that was over 40 years ago!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
gwenstone

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #36 
Exactly what I wanted to say: dark green makes a Triumph, MG, etc... a beautiful car. Light green would make them ugly.
This is what the whole discussion is about. But again... be my guest and drive a light green one when you like it.

Carl


__________________
Carl & Bes Van Bael



"Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world."- Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881
"Let him that would move the world first move himself."-Socrates
Janine

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,524
Reply with quote  #37 
A woman who lives near me has a car the same as mine, only she has painted hers in pastel pink, I think it is the ugliest car I have seen, looks hideous in my eyes but she obviously loves it.  Mine is silver grey with black trim.  I like that.
I like the bitch in the photo I put up showing a "reverse" colour but I dont like the colour of her.  I think that is an ugly colour.
I love the bitch in the second pic that is very dark, I will find another photo of her and you can see her striping more clearly but she is still a very dark brindle dog.
For 30 years I have always thought of the "light" brindle as a reverse and I cannot see myself changing my mind on this now, but what I think is just that, same as I dont want a pink car, I dont have to have one.
When selecting a stud many things were taken into consideration and colour was one of them.  I had people who did not want to use my dog because he was brindle so I guess I am not the only one down here who places colour on the list. 
Janine 



SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #38 

And no!....It wasn't bred by St. Patricks!!!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 379
Reply with quote  #39 
Steve,

I saw the picture you posted of Mrs. How.

Your Triumph TR4A would have been forced off the shoulder by her Jauguar SS100 or Bentley Turbo!

Mark

__________________
Mark and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack

A standard poorly expressed and badly drafted can lead to grave errors and to the creation of teratological creatures.
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #40 

In that case, I'd be forced to use my Rolls!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 379
Reply with quote  #41 
The English have given up on semantics concerning coat color and have amended the KC Standard as follows:

Colour [Delete ‘Apricot-fawn, silver-fawn, fawn, or dark fawn-brindle’] Apricot, fawn or brindle. In any case, muzzle, ears and nose should be black with black around eye rims, and extending upwards between them. Excessive white on body, chest or feet is unacceptable.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2236

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/55

Mark

__________________
Mark and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack

A standard poorly expressed and badly drafted can lead to grave errors and to the creation of teratological creatures.
Lynai

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 979
Reply with quote  #42 

Quote:

No... but you could go live in the midwest.

For those rednecks: just kidding guys



Hey Carl,
I live in the midwest and I can Garanty, I raise 1st class dawgs

and have first class frendz


__________________
Faith Walk Mastiffs
CChauncey

Avatar / Picture

SUPER POWER POSTER>FORUM SUPPORTER
Registered:
Posts: 4,119
Reply with quote  #43 

Tks Lynai!!


__________________
Cindy

It is wiser to find out than suppose.
- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927
oldschool

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 240
Reply with quote  #44 
collie wrote:  I agree the phrase "reverse brindle" is confusing because it means opposite things to different people, and I'm not aware of it appearing in any breed's standard. (The boxer standard only mentions "the appearance of reverse brindle".) Also it doesn't mean anything genetically, because there is no gene single gene which creates either effect.

I know everyone has moved on from this thread but I just wanted to highlight this one portion of the discussion just to be sure that it didn't get overlooked. I think that a breeder would be misguided if they chose to avoid breeding to a nice dog because of the type of brindle pattern (either too much black or not enough). The reason, as collie stated above, is because it is not a particularly heritable thing. I'm sure if you selected a particular pattern for generation after generation you could increase your chance of getting that pattern with more consistency in a litter, but just breeding to a dog of a particular pattern does not mean they will produce that pattern. I know, because our Ursa was an apricot brindle who had very few black stripes, with one side having less stripes than the other.
Ursa: you can see her "other side" in this video


She never produced a puppy with that pattern, and in our 7 generations of line breeding on Ursa we have not gotten that pattern. In fact, she had a vew very dark brindle pups, and many very evenly brindled pups, plus fawns and apricots.

We have had a few brindles in the generations since that could be considered light, but they were all evenly covered in black stripes. None had Ursa's type of pattern where there were more stripes on one side than the other. My most recent litter (which represents an unbroken bitch to bitch line all the way back to our foundation, including Ursa, and is also heavily linebred on Ursa elsewhere in the pedigree) was out of two somewhat lighter fawn brindles, and the 2 puppies were both very dark brindles.
sire

dam

puppies


However, we have a boy (that is a one-quarter outcross to Iron Hills/Caledonia) out of a black brindle bitch and a fawn father, that is a light apricot brindle.

father


mother (on the far left, with the middle dog being our light boy's littermate)


our light brindle boy


I guess all this rambling is meant to say: breed to the dog, not the coat pattern. =)
Oh and BTW, I prefer to say light brindle, not reverse brindle, because to me "reverse brindle" means a black dog with apricot or fawn stripes. Literally the reverse of a brindle, which is a fawn or apricot with black stripes.

__________________
Jess
Old School Mastiffs (the next generation)
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/

Member Chesapeake Mastiff Club
http://chesapeakemastiffclub.com/
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #45 
Several queries Jess,

If the bitch that was missing stripes on one side went up against an identical bitch with full coverage, how would you judge them, if all other things were equal?

The brindle pattern consists of black stripes/marbling and can never be striped in fawn or apricot, since both are recessive ground colors. Do you not agree?

Lastly, the OEM standard will now simply say fawn, apricot and brindle.

How would one judge a brindle with only one leg brindled, or only a tail brindled? Shouldn't there be a qualifier in the wording, which would correct equal values in dogs that exhibit unequal coloration?







__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
gwenstone

Avatar / Picture

~ POWER POSTER ~
Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
but just breeding to a dog of a particular pattern does not mean they will produce that pattern.

I agree... I have the same experience. I also experienced that the light brindle tend to pop up again in later generations.
I'm the first one to say that color is only cosmetic but I would lie if I told you I like light brindle. I really try to avoid it. This doesn't mean the dog can't be of superb quality. It's a personal taste. Some breeders don't like brindle at all. Others prefer only brindle.

Carl


__________________
Carl & Bes Van Bael



"Popular opinion is the greatest lie in the world."- Thomas Carlyle 1795-1881
"Let him that would move the world first move himself."-Socrates
SteveOifer

Avatar / Picture

POWER POSTER
Registered:
Posts: 25,881
Reply with quote  #47 

The brindle gene must have a modifier that also controls intensity and degree of brindling. That's why Gloria gets such dark brindles by doubling up and lights appear every now and again, if a light was somewhere in the past pedigree.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
ConnecticutYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 379
Reply with quote  #48 
I just finished reading this and thought to share the link for people who have not yet read it.

http://www.gwenstone.com/coat_color.htm

Mark

__________________
Mark and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack

A standard poorly expressed and badly drafted can lead to grave errors and to the creation of teratological creatures.
oldschool

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 240
Reply with quote  #49 

Steve wrote: If the bitch that was missing stripes on one side went up against an identical bitch with full coverage, how would you judge them, if all other things were equal?

First off, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be two bitches, exactly equal in all ways other than coat pattern dogs. This is not a realistic scenario.  However, I know you asked this to force your point so I'll answer as if it were possible. At the time we were showing Ursa, there would have been no difference in the two, they would have been equal per the AKC standard. With the way the AKC Standard is worded now, the more evenly striped bitch would be preferred. With the way the UK standard is worded the bitches are equal.

Steve wrote: The brindle pattern consists of black stripes/marbling and can never be striped in fawn or apricot, since both are recessive ground colors. Do you not agree?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. Clairify? Also, are you speaking only of the brindle pattern in Mastiffs? Because there are brindles of many other colors in other breeds/species.

Steve wrote: Lastly, the OEM standard will now simply say fawn, apricot and brindle.

How would one judge a brindle with only one leg brindled, or only a tail brindled? Shouldn't there be a qualifier in the wording, which would correct equal values in dogs that exhibit unequal coloration?

You judge the dogs based on their merits (structure, body, bone, headtype, bite, movement, etc.). Why do you feel there has to be a "more correct" type of brindle? Are you also advocating a more correct shade of apricot or fawn? Should we create little paint swatches for judges to hold up to coats to determine correct coat color? LOL. ;-P  Seriously, I think the UK standard is correct to simply state fawn, apricot and brindle.

__________________
Jess
Old School Mastiffs (the next generation)
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/

Member Chesapeake Mastiff Club
http://chesapeakemastiffclub.com/
oldschool

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 240
Reply with quote  #50 
Carl wrote:

I agree... I have the same experience. I also experienced that the light brindle tend to pop up again in later generations.
I'm the first one to say that color is only cosmetic but I would lie if I told you I like light brindle. I really try to avoid it. This doesn't mean the dog can't be of superb quality. It's a personal taste. Some breeders don't like brindle at all. Others prefer only brindle.


Carl, I suppose, my point is, it has been generation after generation of line breeding on a bitch who was a very light brindle, and we have never gotten another one colored like her. Logan is the lightest one we have had since (8 generations later), and he is still fairly evenly brindled. So when you say it may pop up in the future, you are talking about probably less than 10% of the dogs you will ever produce as a breeder. With something as minor as a color one doesn't like, I consider that to be negligible to the point of not being a consideration in breeding, all things considered. I respect other breeders preferences, of course, but to me it doesn't seem logical to avoid a certain pattern of brindle on the chance that every now and then one of the pups in a litter might be lighter. That's my preference. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that there are some breeders that just don't like brindles! To each his own. =)


__________________
Jess
Old School Mastiffs (the next generation)
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/

Member Chesapeake Mastiff Club
http://chesapeakemastiffclub.com/
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.