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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #301 
Karen, I posted the thread from Jann's board showing 24 pages on the AMMA subject with voices from Mastiff breeders as well. All you need to do is read the posts.

The AMMA people saw an opportunity and took it. They utilized our time honored name and erroneously stated in their copy, that the cross was identical and improved over the Mastiff proper.

If you contend that it was not intentional, or those who structured the strategy, believed it would not impact on the Mastiff breeders & the breed in general, then who am I to change your conception?

The threat to the Mastiff community is evidenced by MCOA disclaimers and breeder disclaimers on their respective websites.

Quantification is validated by those who purchased the AMMA over the Mastiff, due to false & misleading claims.

It's the same quantification used by companies, who discover counterfeiters selling products under their brand label. Or, the use of false claims, as the following site shows:

http://www.businessinsider.com/false-advertising-scandals-2011-9?op=1


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Quote:
Then by definition, anyone who does not agree with this assertion is not healthy or thinking; hence their views may be discredited.


If someone believes & honors the stoning of women who are raped, and believe it to be legally & morally correct under any system of law, then I believe those who endorse that system are not healthy, or thinking properly!

BTW, it was Iranian law, not Afghanistan law, although the practice is used in Afghanistan with few being punished for the act!

http://phys.org/news192693376.html

Excerpt:

Quote:
they think we may be born with a moral code hard-wired into our brains.

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #303 

A clear case of legal vs moral


Man Accused of Blowing Up Dog Not Charged With Animal Cruelty

 

By Jessica Wilder

Aug 6, 2013 5:31pm

A man accused of blowing up his daughter’s dog because he was mad at her is being held on $500,000 bail, but not for harming the pet pooch.

“In the animal cruelty statute in the state of Washington it talks about animal suffering,” Undersherriff Dave Cox told ABC News. Since the dog died instantaneously and didn’t suffer before it died, “the prosecutor was concerned about that verbiage,” Cox said.

Christopher Dillingham, 45, of Stevenson, Wash., allegedly killed the yellow lab named Cabala on Sunday after a dispute with his daughter, who was given the pet by an acquaintance just six months prior.

“We’re taking this very seriously because it is clearly a violation of state law.  It’s a pretty laid back bunch of folks here who own a lot of animals, so it was fairly disturbing to have this happen,” said Cox.

Dillingham was originally arrested under animal cruelty  charges, but those charges were dropped.

He is now being charged with two counts of reckless endangerment and one count of possession of an explosive device.  If convicted of these charges, he could face up to 22 years in jail.

“We are reviewing the animal cruelty statutes and case law, and if the law allows we will file additional charges in relation to the killing of the dog,” said Adam Kick, the Skamania County prosecutor.

Dillingham owns and operates a firework stand called “Thundershack” in the Stevenson area and puts on fireworks shows for neighbors.

The suspect remains in jail and could not be reached for comment.


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #304 


Quote:
Karen, I posted the thread from Jann's board showing 24 pages on the AMMA subject with voices from Mastiff breeders as well. All you need to do is read the posts.


Steve, if the subject has been 'done and dusted' on her forum, why should it be reprised here?
Quote:
 They utilized our time honored name


In what way is it 'time honoured', when it has not been officially adopted?

Quote:
….and erroneously stated in their copy, that the cross was identical and improved over the Mastiff proper.

As I have said, now it seems infinitum, the American Mastiff Family board, and the AMBA no longer embrace the statements of 'identical and improved' at least in terms of the drool situation. As I have said, on at least three occasions, take legal action against FWF, if you believe Fredericka's position statement is actionable.

Quote:

If you contend that it was not intentional, or those who structured the strategy, believed it would not impact on the Mastiff breeders & the breed in general, then who am I to change your conception?

As you know full well, I made no contentions, I asked questions -- which remain unanswered.

Quote:
The threat to the Mastiff community is evidenced by MCOA disclaimers and breeder disclaimers on their respective websites.

From my perspective, the breeder disclaimers are more focused on providing potential buyers with valid information as to the differences between the breeds. I would also ONCE AGAIN point out that the MCOA disclaimer was titled “ The English Mastiff versus the American Mastiff”.


Quote:
The Quantification is validated by those who purchased the AMMA over the Mastiff, due to false & misleading claims.

It's the same quantification used by companies, who discover counterfeiters selling products under their brand label. Or, the use of false claims, as the following site shows:

A class action settlement last year forced Dannon to pay up to $45 million in damages to the consumers that filed the lawsuit and others who said they'd been bamboozled.

 

Although this is hardly a legitimate, business oriented site, the $45 million in damages, IS a quantifiable figure. What are the losses and damage to the Mastiff community?

Quantification requires verifiable data. As you are fond of corporate analogies, let’s consider how might Alan Mulally respond if an executive were to assert, “Our market share and sales have been eroded by false advertising on the part of competitor X’. What do you think his first question would be?


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Karen
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #305 
Hi everyone. I would like to chime in here and personally thank Steve0 for the awesome free advertisement of the first book on American Mastiffs. *Virtual high five!

I've enjoyed reading this thread, truly. I found it both comical at points and very enlightening at others. I value the point of view of a select couple of people on this particular thread. The ones that see things through a realistic and compassionate mind. It seems that a few of you, however, have lost your way in your love of animals, and in particularly, dogs. It is also apparent that there is a missing link between personal perception of the "mastiff" and the actual history and truth behind it. So, let me assist if I may…

1. the term Mastiff does not reflect an individual breed (as has been pointed out already on this board, but no-one seemed to reply to her statement) ;-)
Mastiff is a reflection of a "type" of breed family, to include a LARGE amount of specific breeds. This term originated from ancient war dogs of large size and strength combined with extreme courage. From that point, many…MANY breeds have come to be through mankind manipulations in order to achieve certain "selfish" goals, if we are being honest.

2. While I can appreciate that you would like to differentiate your specific "mastiff" from the American Mastiff and all other mastiffs, I would ask you to look within your own "AKC breed" and determine why that particular breed has never been given a true name (not "type" but name). As was pointed out earlier in the post, there are no AKC breeds simply named "shepherd" or "terrier", etc. It was the AKC and breeders who decided to name the breed with a "type" designation. Sounds more like extremely poor planning and judgment on their part, if you ask me. ;-)

3. Speaking of dog breeds, the AKC, and names…let's look back into "real" history, instead of emotionally biased history. The "English" mastiff, for which the current "mastiff" in america is suppose to represent was actually extinct outside of Great Britain. North America wanted to recreate the breed, so an actual female English Mastiff was used along with an unidentified sire. A request was put in with the AKC to "call" the unrecognized sire an English Mastiff in order to establish a left breeding program. This sire had a "masttify" look, so he was approved and used to establish the breed you own today. Some individuals on this post would consider the offspring of these two dogs to be "mutts" or "mongrels"…and thus the "mastiff" in North America was formed.

4. The American Mastiff is not an AKC dog simply because it is not important to the breed or the breeders and buyers of these wonderful animals. While you can still buy GREAT pups that are AKC certified, you can also buy very sick puppy mill AKC pups from pet stores, flea markets, and back yards all across america. The AKC stamp is no longer a valid representation of quality in any way, shape, or form. They are a business like any other, period. On a personal note, I am not a huge fan of attaching animals to any breed registry. I am more focused on the ancestors of the pups, quality of life, and ability to perform given duties (guard, herd, hunt, companion, etc). One of the hardiest dogs breeds I've ever known is the American Bulldog bred in the southeast. They are not recognized by the AKC either, and will hunt boars like no other, are incredibly healthy, and as loyal a family dog as they come. For anyone looking for those particular traits in a dog, then its a perfect fit, so why limit the options of families to just ONE breed registry??? It just doesn't make sense in my mind.

5. I'll make this my last point, as I've rambled on much too long already. ALL, and I repeat…ALL domesticated dogs with the exception of a couple breeds ARE MUTTS by definition. Every non-ancestor  dog breed was created by man in a way that took the traits from multiple breeds and combined them until a sufficient animal was created that fit that breeder's personal intent. The English Mastiff, American Mastiff, and your "Mastiff" have a tremendous amount of breeds tied into their creation. And if we start getting into the whole "watch out for the Anatolian coming out" debacle, then dive into the actual history of your "Mastiff" and you might be surprised as to what can "pop up" so to speak. The ancient "Mastiff" type dogs were fierce warriors and incredible guard dogs. Man has bred downward in an effort to make them more "family" dogs, but still endorse that they have a natural instinct to guard their family. Doesn't this mean that ANY mastiff breed has the potential to do damage? I mean, lets be reasonable here! The Anatolian blood in the AM doesn't make them any less predictable then a chihuahua, poodle, english mastiff, or golden retriever. That whole theory is ridiculous. Anyone who feels that way I can presume also feels that all pit bulls are killers and untrustworthy, right? And for those who do feel that way, shame shame shame. The American Mastiff is a large and powerful breed that needs good leadership JUST LIKE your "Mastiff", no different. There are breeds that need a certain level of leadership and others that do not. Mastiffs as a whole NEED good leadership in their family, period. Oh, and as far as American Mastiffs being in shelters, that is false. AMs are microchipped which would allow anyone with a reader to know exactly where they came from. To my knowledge, there aren't any AMs in shelters because we do an awesome job as a community of helping AMs in need, as well as the breeders. As a large group, we have successfully re-homed, rehabilitated, and rescued Ams all over the country due to numerous circumstances similar to any family situation involving animals. It is our close knit community that allows us to make the claim that Ams aren't seen in animal shelters. Perhaps something can be learned from that. ;-)

My family LOVES LOVES LOVES ALL animals, and we continually rescue animals in need. We LOVE the English Mastiff, what you call the "Mastiff" of today, our American Mastiffs, and the other handful of Mastiff around the world, along with all breeds. It is hard for us to fathom such hate towards our animals, their breeders, and their namesake or description/traits. Haters are going to always hate, I can only hope that perhaps one day they will find a peace within themselves and enjoy the life they've been given while helping others instead of hurting. :-D

Peace and Love,
Anthony

If anyone wants to learn more about life with an American Mastiff, feel free to search American Mastiff on Amazon and the only book on the breed will pop up. Thank you to all the animal lovers out there. :-D
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #306 
Hi, Anthony, thank your for your contribution and perspective!
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Karen
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #307 
Ok Anthony,

If the AMMA has less health problems than the Mastiff (as stated on the AMMA breeder websites) where are the copies of the health tests to prove this statement is true?
If the AMMA lives longer than the Mastiff, where are the charts proving this over several generations?
How is it that it was deemed the AMMA drools less than the Mastiff?  Are there flow charts to support this claim?
Why does an AMMA have to come with documentation proving that it is an AMMA before the breeders will take it?  It's easy to say you microchip your dog and then turn around and not do it, therefore the dog bred cannot be traced back to the AMMA breeders and therefore ends up in MASTIFF rescue.
Why the high prices for mixed breed dogs?  Surely it doesn't go toward health testing since this isn't done among your crowd...
Why is there a designation of "pick of the litter" when none of the dogs can be shown??  My guess is everyone gets pick of the litter so everyone pays the $2,100 charged.
Where is the COE?  The AMMA breeders state they have one, but it can't be found anywhere, I would love to know what it says.
When an AMMA mauls a person are the AMMA people going to correct the press when it is wrongly identified as a Mastiff?  Will they actually take responsibility?
They say the AMMA is "identical" to the Mastiff.  Really?!?!?!  I mean really?!?!?!?

Come back when you have proof of all their claims that can be shared with all of us haters out there.

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #308 
And one more thing as to the EARLY outcrossing of the Mastiff:  Where would your beloved AMMA be without the Mastiff?
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #309 


Quote:
Karen, I posted the thread from Jann's board showing 24 pages on the AMMA subject with voices from Mastiff breeders as well. All you need to do is read the posts.


Steve, if the subject has been 'done and dusted' on her forum, why should it be reprised here?
Karen, you were asking why if this was such an important issue, then where are other posters on the subject. When I show you additional posting from that forum, you then ask why it's being reprised!
Quote:
 They utilized our time honored name


In what way is it 'time honoured', when it has not been officially adopted?
Once again, the name referred to the Mastiff in America since 1492!
It was adopted by the American Mastiff Club as their unofficial name for the breed in America.
Unofficial adoption ,does not diminish dominion!


Quote:
….and erroneously stated in their copy, that the cross was identical and improved over the Mastiff proper.

As I have said, now it seems infinitum, the American Mastiff Family board, and the AMBA no longer embrace the statements of 'identical and improved' at least in terms of the drool situation. As I have said, on at least three occasions, take legal action against FWF, if you believe Fredericka's position statement is actionable.
Why don't you take legal action if you believe I am correct? It's MORALLY reprehensible!
The damage has been done.
It's like lowering the volume on your radio, after all your neighbors move away!

Quote:

If you contend that it was not intentional, or those who structured the strategy, believed it would not impact on the Mastiff breeders & the breed in general, then who am I to change your conception?

As you know full well, I made no contentions, I asked questions -- which remain unanswered.

Quote:
I have asked several times for some quantification of the damages being done to the Mastiff community, and none has been forthcoming. I have suggested we consult with breeders of the Mastiff for their experience, views of damage and losses, etc and perceptions of how important to them the 'naming' situation is. I have heard from someone who said they were irritated by this argument, and wouldn't care if our breed were called 'Whirlygigs' -- that it is the DOG that is important, not the name. If, as you contend the 'backbone' of the Mastiff community is far broader than breeders, then by all means, let's consult them as well.


It's obvious from the above quote you made, that you're not digesting the history & timeline of this debacle.
If you still believe that names are unimportant, after the MCOA & Breeders have disclaimed the cross, due to it's naming & misdirected information, then it's fairly obvious you have certain contentions in favor of what they have done & continue to do. Singling out the obvious (Flying W's present wording) leaves you little wriggle room, so you keep telling me to take legal action if I think she is wrong, but what do you think? Why don't you take a stronger position in condemning her past & present practices? Why aren't you outraged and clearly seeing what she was attempting to do for herself on the shoulders of our breed? Is the breed identical? Does it drool less? Is it healthier? Where do you stand?

Quote:
The threat to the Mastiff community is evidenced by MCOA disclaimers and breeder disclaimers on their respective websites.

From my perspective, the breeder disclaimers are more focused on providing potential buyers with valid information as to the differences between the breeds. I would also ONCE AGAIN point out that the MCOA disclaimer was titled “ The English Mastiff versus the American Mastiff”.

I guess you can put on rose colored glasses and choose to believe whatever you wish!
When the AMMA people berate the Panja (American Mastiff) with disclaimers stating the aggressive breeds that went into the making of the Panja, followed by a BEWARE OF IMPOSTERS, I guess it's just used by them to inform about differences between those breeds too!

The MCOA disclaimer is due top the confusion to the public, solely based on the naming of the cross and their distorted advertising practices! Get real!

 

Quote:
The Quantification is validated by those who purchased the AMMA over the Mastiff, due to false & misleading claims.

It's the same quantification used by companies, who discover counterfeiters selling products under their brand label. Or, the use of false claims, as the following site shows:

A class action settlement last year forced Dannon to pay up to $45 million in damages to the consumers that filed the lawsuit and others who said they'd been bamboozled.

 

Although this is hardly a legitimate, business oriented site, the $45 million in damages, IS a quantifiable figure. What are the losses and damage to the Mastiff community? It can be evaluated based on the number of AMMAS sold!

Quantification requires verifiable data. As you are fond of corporate analogies, let’s consider how might Alan Mulally respond if an executive were to assert, “Our market share and sales have been eroded by false advertising on the part of competitor X’. What do you think his first question would be? Your legal loophole has certainly aided the AMMA people in continuing the charade, and you can certainly maintain your closed acceptance of the moral claims I've expounded. I use the corporate references only to show how false advertising is wrong and even worse, when you target a competitor's product with false & misleading info, coupled to using a name identical to your competitors. Why you struggle against seeing the moral wrong, is something only you must assimilate & digest.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #310 
http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/06/20/price_fixing_alleged_in_american_mastiffs.htm
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #311 
http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/06/20/AmerMastiffs.pdf
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #312 
PS Anthony
Welcome to the forum

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Karen
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #313 
http://nv.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20090306_0000166.DNV.htm/qx
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #314 
http://www.mastiff-forum.com/showthread.php/1487-American-Mastiff-Breeder..
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #315 
http://www.vorys.com/assets/attachments/Antitrust%20Claims%20Against%20Dog%20Breeding%20Group%20Tossed.pdf
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #316 
Kaern,

Plaese take the tmie to raed the court doucments beofr actually resopnding!

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #317 
Anthony, as I've stated in this thread & others, the dogs are not to be blamed for the people who gave rise to them.

I strongly suggest you do a bit more research on the history of the Modern Mastiff, because many of your facts are blurred and simply incorrect.

I've also stated, that many AMMA fanciers are good people who just love dogs!

Therein lies the problem, since the love of all dogs can cloud the understanding of the importance in maintaining specific breed identity, especially regarding the Mastiff.

The Mastiff is the progenitor of all other Mastiff types. A Mastiff is not a Molosser as the Mastiff type predates that designate.

One can make an argument, stating there were many infusions of crosses over the last 6 millenniums. It's why we shouldn't use ancient examples, in pursuit of validating any clueless crossings done in the present. If one travels back far enough in time, we go back to the wolf. Should that justify wolf crosses?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #318 
LMAO, and the hate, OF COURSE, continues. ;-D

I didn't have high expectations of opening the minds of the narrow minded on this page, but I do hope to help other folks who stumble upon this thread to know what is going on and to try and figure out themselves what all this hate you guys spew is all about. :-D

If the AMMA has less health problems than the Mastiff (as stated on the AMMA breeder websites) where are the copies of the health tests to prove this statement is true?

This is something that I cannot provide paperwork on, as I am not an original AMBC member or breeder. Can you pull the original documents from the "mixed breeding" of the current "mastiff" you have in American???? I BET not! ;-) If you could, then you would be well enlightened as a "mastiff" owner in a debate against new breeds. *clears throat....you own a "new breed" as well in the scope of things ;-)

If the AMMA lives longer than the Mastiff, where are the charts proving this over several generations?

I know of some 16 and 14 year old American Mastiffs. Now, to say that ALL AMs live longer than ALL "mastiffs" would be ridiculous and I do not feel that is the intent of the AMBC's statement. I believe the intent is that the AM as a whole...on average.... lives longer than other Giant breeds, including the "mastiff" you are claiming. Any level headed person would know that not every dog is the same, some die young, some die extremely old...just like humans and all other living things...IMAGINE THAT!!! Hell, my mind is blown. You mean to tell me that my dogs are guaranteed to live 16 years?? Whaaaaaat, not I'm totally bummed. hahaaha *sarcasm, in case you missed it.

How is it that it was deemed the AMMA drools less than the Mastiff?  Are there flow charts to support this claim?

Not sure what kind of flow chart you need for this one. Is there a chart showing that a toy poodle drools less then a Saint Bernard??? No? Well hell, I guess toy poodles are heavy droolers then. :-D
This is a no brainer, the AM has a tighter lip on average, which equals less drool. Not rocket science.

Why does an AMMA have to come with documentation proving that it is an AMMA before the breeders will take it?  It's easy to say you microchip your dog and then turn around and not do it, therefore the dog bred cannot be traced back to the AMMA breeders and therefore ends up in MASTIFF rescue.

AMs are microchipped, not much to argue there. As for breeders requiring proof, this is hardly ever needed, if at all since there are only a handful of AM breeders. The AM community is very close knit and we can all spot an AM from our particular breeder a mile away. The AM community has great success stories of breeders who have taken back dogs due to family situations and have gave them perfect forever homes. AMs aren't tossed around as you make it sound. And I know of ZERO that have EVER been in a mastiff rescue not associated with the AM community. There are actually Mastiff and Giant breed rescues who HAVE an AM or two as part of their families that they got from one of the breeders.

Why the high prices for mixed breed dogs?  Surely it doesn't go toward health testing since this isn't done among your crowd...

High prices for "mixed breed" dogs.... you have to be kidding yourself. You have a "mixed breed" dog to my dear. ;-) Did you take in nothing from my original post about the creation of the "Mastiff" you hold so high??? hahahah. Health testing is done within the AMBC, any faults found in any generation is taken into consideration as part of the breeding program of each breeder. I feel that you guys have been barking up the wrong tree in an effort to gather information. Perhaps reaching out politely and professionally to actual breeders would better suit your needs in lieu of the AM family forum, which is not ran by an AMBC member or breeder, although is a great location for information on the AM and all our families, as this forum is as well.

Why is there a designation of "pick of the litter" when none of the dogs can be shown??  My guess is everyone gets pick of the litter so everyone pays the $2,100 charged.

The breeders I've worked with do not charge that high of a price, nor do they offer a "pick of the litter". AMs are chosen to best fit the family looking to add them as part of their family. I did not know which pup I was going to get either time I added an AM to my family until about a week out from pick-up day. This allowed the breeders and handlers to see the personalities of each pup, thus allowing them to match up the proper AM to the right family based on household members, experience, and lifestyle, etc. This is not to say that ALL the AMBC breeders operate this way, but let it be known that the way in which you stated in this question is not the common way of the AMBC. And as for not being "shown": A. these are family dogs, not show dogs B. they can be shown, just not in and AKC breed show. There are plenty of AMs that compete in obedience through the AKC and CKC as well as RALLY, yes RALLY!!!! The AKC isn't god of all things dogs, as much as you would like to believe that.

Where is the COE?  The AMMA breeders state they have one, but it can't be found anywhere, I would love to know what it says.


A question that could politely be asked of an AMBC approved breeder :-D

When an AMMA mauls a person are the AMMA people going to correct the press when it is wrongly identified as a Mastiff?  Will they actually take responsibility?

1. an AM has never mauled anyone to date. 2. There will be ZERO need for correction if the media simply states it was a "Mastiff" as they would be 100% correct, an AM ISSSSS a MASTIFF! Geez, what is so hard about understanding this. hahahaha. The "Mastiff" you speak of techinically has no name. The AKC breed "Mastiff" has been given a name for a dog TYPE, not a BREED!!! If a German Shepherd attacks someone and the media says it was a Shepherd attack, they would be CORRECT. Once more information is collected, then the media would be able to say it was a German Shepard. Same goes for the term "Mastiff". Whether the attack be done by a French, Bull, American, English, Tibetan, Neapolian, etc... the media would be correct in using the term "Mastiff" in ALL cases, until more information was attained, at which point they would differentiate. And in the case of one of your mastiffs being involved, the most appropriate use of the term for the media to use would be an English Mastiff, even though we both know that your mastiff is not exactly an English since it was created with an unidentified mastiffy sire from the get-go. But being as though it doesn't have a specific breed name, the English would be the closest representation of it. ;-)
Further more, since when do breeders of ANY breed take responsibility of an individualized attack??? I've never heard of one....EVER! Typically the breed as a whole is stereotyped...which is really sad and unfortunate. So once it was determined that the "Mastiff" was an AM then it would be a media scar on the AM. It's REAAAALLLY easy to find out the breed of an AM, just ask the owner or check the micro chip, DUH!

They say the AMMA is "identical" to the Mastiff.  Really?!?!?!  I mean really?!?!?!?

Now you are just making stuff up again. hahaha. The description on the AMBC page states that the AM looks NEARLY identical the the English Mastiff. In that respect they DO look nearly identical, why else do we all ( I mean ALL of us on this forum) get asked what kind of "Mastiff" we have??? They are all very similar in appearance, but each dog is different, JUST LIKE IN THE MASTIFF COMMUNITY. Some "Mastiffs" are blockier than others, some dryer mouthed then others, some heavier boned, some more athletic, some dopier and droopier in appearance, etc. So in regards to appearance, YES the AM, EM, and you magical "Mastiff" breed are all nearly identical in appearance with respect to individuality amongst breeding programs. If you would like me to test your ability to pick between an AM and your mastiff in photos then please challenge me on this. I will gladly show you side by side images of both breeds and would bet any amount of money that you would not be able to pick the AMs from the EMs. :-D
On another note...Do all pitbulls look the same? How about German Shepherds? Labs??? I'll answer for you...NOPE! Different breeders breed towards their preffered look and ability. Stocky, muscular, athletic, blocky, etc. Mastiffs aren't the only breed type that does this. It's a universal tactic. So would you say that pitbull breeder A should call there dog something different then pitbull breeder B because one breeds for traditional athletic build while the other breeds for blockiness??? Of course not! The AM isn't calling itself your precious "Mastiff", it's an actual individualized breed established over 3 decades ago and given an appropriate name separate from any other breed name. You can't and DON'T own the breed "type" Mastiff. it describes the type of dog, not the breed. If you continue to hate on the AM then you might as well create more threads on how much you hate the other dozen "Mastiffs". lol.

I hope that helped you out a little, more than likely it didn't, but fingers are crossed. :-D
I will still love your mastiff, even if you don't love mine.
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #319 
Thanks Karen, I'm happy to be here. :-D I like to be the contribute as a voice of reason when possible. You have done a great job as a neutral party. I'm not sure how some of your points have not been given proper validation...
:-D
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Reply with quote  #320 
Your ignorance is absolutely astounding......  I will admit, your responses are so incorrect and clueless in nature I have no idea where to start.
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Kristie in Texas
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And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #321 
Steve, while I appreciate that you do recognize that we all love dogs, I'm afraid you didn't let the information I posted soak in. I love Mastiffs to the core, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news brother, but your mastiff is as much a mutt as the AM, just a little bit older mutt. ;-) And we love these mutts EM and AM because they are awesome. Nothing wrong with mutts, especially since all AKC dogs are mutts, right? :-D If you fail to realize that, then you fail to offer any insight on the topic of canines. Just because the AKC endorses line breeding to an extent that the modern dogs of all breeds have health issues that dogs would have never actually had in nature, doesn't make AKC dogs special in any regards. And I'm not saying the the AM doesn't have any line breeding in it as well, but you seem to have a clouded vision on your breed's history and even today's common practices. Much like the royal families created some of the diseases us humans would have never had, due to their policies on marrying within the family and producing children. Nature has a funny way of letting us know when we are doing things wrong.

With that little history lesson out of the way, lets refocus on the "Mastiff". Again, the mastiff you have in your family is NOT, i repeat...NOT the same mastiff that you perceive to be an original breed from centuries ago. In fact, your mastiff has as much in common with that mastiff as a poodle. Sorry dude, just the way it is. I stand behind the history of your mastiff being created by an unidentified sire. Your mastiff is a "new" breed in the broad scope of things. It has no ties to the original Mastiff, it simply shares the same name because the creators of the breed named it "Mastiff" after a type, instead of giving it a proper breed specific name followed by the type, like American "Mastiff", Tibetan "Mastiff", Neo "Mastiff", etc. Perhaps this hatred is based on the fact that the mastiff you have in your family could have and probably should have been named "American Mastiff" many years ago, as it was a recreation of the English mastiff in North America. I feel that the issue lies within your own breed organization and not the AM. ;-)
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Reply with quote  #322 
Kristie, I'll take by that response that you either A. didn't grasp any of the facts that I stated, or B. where just frustrated with the facts that you didn't wish to add a retort. :-D It's ok, we all have our faults in life, and we are all wrong at something at some point. The difference is whether or not a person is willing to open up and learn something new, or if they are so stuck in their falsehood that they will hold on to it until it consumes them. I believe all my answers above are 100% accurate and factual. IF you differ, then please provide proof otherwise rather than attempting to criticize my intellect or nature. I like to think I have pretty awesome thought processes. Let me know when your book on mastiffs comes out please :-D
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Reply with quote  #323 
Thought you guys might want to take a look at this, taken straight from the MCOA. It does two things... 1. tells how the mastiff did NOT come before the Molosser nor Alaunt and 2. that the Look of the OEM is so varied in height and weight that it would be VERY easy to say the AM is nearly identical to the OEM.

A Mastiff is a giant breed of dog, descended from the ancient Alaunt and Molosser. Today, mastiff is used to describe many different breeds around the world, all descended from the same root stock.

In the US and other English speaking countries, Mastiff is used to refer to the Old English Mastiff (OEM), developed in England and nearly extinct after WW II.

With that in mind, Mastiffs (OEMs) are generally very large dogs; fawn, apricot or brindle in color; all with a black mask and ears; possessing a medium to short coat with very little white (which, if it appears, should be confined to the chest but often appears on the toes as well).

There is no upper height limit and no weight range in the Mastiff Standard.

In height they generally range from the Standard's minimum of 27 1/2 inches up to 36 inches for the exceptionally tall ones. They can weigh anywhere from 110 pounds to the 343 pounds of Zorba, the world's largest dog, although most Mastiff males weigh around 160-230 pounds and females around 120-170 pounds.

theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #324 
This also taken from the MCOA official page: telling how the term "Mastiff" represents a large variety of breeds and NOT one specific breed, that the "Mastiff" you guys have in your family should be referred to as and OEM, as that is what they are supposed to be created after. (the pure female OEM and the unidentified sire) :-D hehehehe.

Oh, that's not what you meant? While it is correct that the breed of mastiff dog developed in England has pre-empted the official name of 'Mastiff', according to the AKC's 'The Complete Dog Book', 18th Edition, "The breed commonly called "Mastiff" in English speaking countries is more properly described as the 'Old English' Mastiff." From the same source: "The term 'mastiff' describes a group of giant varieties of dogs rather than a single breed." Today this group of giant breed dogs is more commonly referred to as 'Molossers'.
h

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Reply with quote  #325 

We have a few American Mastiffs in my town; Northport, NY.  You must know them as they are part of your buyer base.  All I can say is based on experience.

Every single one of them has expressed how much they wish they had done their research before buying.  Every single one of them wishes they had a confident, well socialized dog like mine. 

None have ever had their dogs with them.  What does that say?

This is just one, true account.  I wonder how many others have experienced this.

H




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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #326 
Anthony,

Please go to the link and actually READ it, dude....

Note the use of:  identical, less health problems, mix between a Mastiff and Anatolian Mastiff (which does not exist) etc.

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/01-Amastiff_History.html

You people really need to do your research before even trying to debate something you know nothing about...

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #327 
And the addition of the TM behind the name is very new, maybe a preemptive CYA on their part????
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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #328 
Ok Steve, in the spirit of fairness,  please tell me where you have posted the 24 pages from Jann's forum as I couldn't immediately locate them.
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kcornel4

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Reply with quote  #329 
Kristy, I have (long ago) read the court documents as well as the final adjudication.
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dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #330 
"Identical" to the Mastiff???
http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/D_images/Luna%20L/Luna%20L-Oct2010crp.jpg

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #331 
I'm going to need Kristie and SteveO to learn the history of your own breed before demanding info on the AM. :-D It is obvious to me that no research has been done on your part, other than trying to pick a part what has been posted on some AM pages. How can others help you, when you can not help yourselves? How do you demand such specific information through paperwork and charts when you know little about the history of your own breed?

Bottom line is the mastiff that you have in your family is very much a mixed-breed as the AM, even within 30 years of each other, that's right...30 years. in the beginning of the 20th century the OEM all but went extinct, but some fanciers wanted to keep the breed alive so the st. bernhard was used to help rejuvenate the few OEMs that was capable of breeding. This was done until the desired results produced enough healthy pups. Then in the 1930s the breed almost went extinct again due to lack of food and poverty levels. in the latter part of the 1940s, the breed was to be revitalized, so other breeds to include great danes, bullmastiffs and saint bernhards were used in an effort to get the breed established AGAIN!!!

So let me make this very clear. The "mastiff" (which we have already established is not a BREED name) that you two have in your family is a new creation based on the crosses of multiple giant breed animals. The American Mastiff (which is a BREED name) is a new breed created based on the cross of multiple giant breeds.

IS IT STARTING TO CLICK YET? maybe a little? Just a small click? Perhaps just a little "pop"? Anything? LOL. I'm totally writing this with a smile on my face, so please do not be totally offended. :-D
dirtpoor

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Reply with quote  #332 
Kaern,

Sicne yuo admtitdly dindt raed teh lnik teh fisrt tmie heer it is agian:

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Reply with quote  #271 
From Jann's forum:

Quote:
We ended up feeling very foolish and a bit deceived, but grateful that we found out beforehand.  To be honest, from a newbie's standpoint and a VERY uneducated eye, they did look exactly alike.  We now have a mastiff, have attended many shows, researched breeders, breeding and standards and obviously 2 years later, we know MUCH more now.  At this point, I don't think they look ANYTHING alike but that is only because now I know what to look for. Post #63 from 2006



http://mastiffmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post/American-Mastiff-How-big-of-a-problem-is-this-1349375?&trail=350

There are 24 pages on that thread, so you can't say nobody speaking out.

http://mastiffmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2308582

 


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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!

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Kristie in Texas
Proud mom of Daisy and Gunnar who live in Heaven with God and my daddy, Grace my silly clown who makes me laugh when I cry and every opportunity she thinks she can, Oliver who beat the odds and survived the impossible, Chigger, he's an a$$ but he's my little A$$....

And my new boy Elah!!!!!!
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Reply with quote  #333 
H, that is unfortunate, as I have never heard of or personally met anyone with an AM that wishes they did not have them in their family. And I have traveled the US and Canada talking with breeders and families about their AMs. I've met as many "unsocial" AMs as I have "unsocial" EMs. Just saying.

Not that I don't believe you, I just have never had that experience.
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Reply with quote  #334 
Quote:
Sicne yuo admtitdly dindt raed teh lnik teh fisrt tmie heer it is agian:


Kristy, with all apologies, what are you saying?
But I shall check out the link.

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Reply with quote  #335 

Regarding posts by theamericanmastiff (Anthony) .

Semantics may make clear that a word can have different meanings . The word Mastiff in its perhaps most ordinary signification may refer to any large solid dog in ancient history , whether or not embedded in sceneries of fighting . Significant forms of canine classification may have started after the Middle Ages by people like Linneaus , Caius & others . Significant forms of canine breeds came along with the founding of kennel clubs during the late XIX C .

That most ordinary signification of the word Mastiff does not exclude the validity of the other signification , ie designating the breed Mastiff (incl its standard) recognized by the Kennel Club in 1873/4 and afterwards recognised by the majority of Kennel Club institutions world-wide . The word Mastiff here is a textbook example of linguistic development , also subject to semantics . In short , the word Mastiff is 100% valid in order to designate the breed recognized by the KC in 1873 and still running smoothly under that same name , almost world-wide . So your argument that the word Mastiff is not a true name to designate a particular breed is simply not right , period .

The breed name Mastiff may sound poor planning but it isn’t because it was the first KC recognized breed which carried that name . Those which came later on had to differentiate their name , p ex Bull Mastiff , &c . 

The Mastiff breed was nearly extinct in Britain after WWII (one remaining breedable female) and your statement that – ‘actually extinct outside of Britain’ is not correct , witnessed by the eight early P-WW II importations (a/o from Canada) of Mastiffs tracing back to original British stock .

And correct , there was that sire with a ‘mastiffy’ look (Templecoombe Torus) and perhaps he was not a fullbred Mastiff but perhaps a mateing between a Mastiff and a Bull Mastiff , the latter of course created by using ad multum the blood of the former annex a dash of the old type of Bulldog . That sire with a 'mastiffy' look is well documented by extensive descriptions coming from a/o its owner & by a significant load of photographic material . How about the Anatolian used to create/improve the American Mastiff ? Was it an Anatolian Shepherd , an Anatolian cross-bred Shepherd/xxx or simply some black masked large dog imported from the Middle East ? Which were his qualities . Which was his presumable origin ? Are there pics of that super-cross sire who , by the way , lived decennia later on ?

Note about cross-breedings - Factually they may be identical but practically there are great differences , ie an accidental cross-breeding without any purpose but further on loosely used in a breeding program , a short-sighted crossbreeding which aims at improving a particular point while naively expecting that the rest remains about untouched , that opposite to a purposeful global viewed cross-breeding which beforehand calculates the possible goods & bads in the understandment that by cautious long-termed selection procedures  , one may end up with a standard of quality better than before the cross .

If you are not a huge fan  of breed registry , that may be fine . Breed registry nevertheless present a broad framework for every fancier into the breed to find out any ancestral background . Without breed registry one only may know those of own dogs & perhaps of befriended fanciers and then it stops , iow a very small pool to fish and/or to improve own stock .

And by the way , it’s not because one’s is pro breed registry , one should be anymore able to focus upon quality of life , abilities to perform , &c . What you may tell about the not AKC registered American Bulldog is your (unconfirmed) story . Have heard other ones of the same hue , iow overloaded by superlatives and absolutely no negatives , always a tricky stance , isn’t it ?

Quote – ‘This is a no brainer, the AM has a tighter lip on average, which equals less drool. Not rocket science.’ - This can be one of the different factors . Do google a bit and you’ll find out it may be more than a no-brainer , iow drooling is not only determined by tightness of lip .

Quote – ‘The description on the AMBC page states that the AM looks NEARLY identical to the English Mastiff.’ – This may be true when comparing low quality specimens of both breeds . But as you may know , in Mastiffs there’s a fancy which goes for the best , ie they try to breed toward that breed standard , bring them to shows to be judged by third parties of some or great breed knowledge . Those Mastiffs are placed according to respective merits and come into the limelight of the breed public which may make use of what’s shown in order to even produce better stock . It’s a chain of interaction which is sadly lacking in American Mastiffs , no shows , no judgment by qualified 3rd parties , no presentation before a substantial public , all things which could improve the breed of American Mastiffs . 

In this respect , it seems quite odd that , although the American Mastiff breed is publicly ‘invisible’ in the flesh (at shows , &c) , the people of the AM try their utmost best to promote it (online) as superior to the Mastiff breed whose fancy is not afraid to present it before the public on all breeds shows , even organises club shows on their own to show the qualities of their breed for everyone interested , so not only to SPEAK about the qualities and actually to remain a virtual www ghost-like breed of superior quality , a position which may describe the actual AM situation .

Rounding up – Repeat , it may be true that American Mastiffs may look nearly like Mastiffs when comparing low quality specimens of both breeds . But what may happen if one could compare both breeds simultaneuosly under the skilled eyes of the canine fancy ; the best American Mastiffs against the best Mastiffs in the same ring . The American Mastiffs still superior ? I know , there’s more than beauty & shows but I think it’s fair for everyone to remain a bit more modest instead of trumpeting own virtues . And just like in Mastiffs , there’s also a whole lot to be done in American Mastiffs in order to fullfill the qualities claimed at .

Quote - ‘in the beginning of the 20th century the OEM all but went extinct, but some fanciers wanted to keep the breed alive so the st. bernhard was used to help rejuvenate the few OEMs that was capable of breeding . – Let’s put it straight –In those days the Mastiff breed was at a low ebb but there still were long-established breeders having genuine stock who bridged the then difficult times and yes there may have been made use of familiar breeds due to shortage of breeding stock in times of increasing demand but it certainly wasn’t restricted to the then St Bernard who , by the way , carried most probably Mastiff blood , that along the Captain Piddocke' ch Ogilvie used by the notorious Saint breeders Dr Inman & Walmsley .

Quote - Then in the 1930s the breed almost went extinct again due to lack of food and poverty levels.’ – If this goes about Britain , then it’s pure nonsense as the breed became very popular & numerous amongst the large breeds , especially in the mid-thirties , patronized by a substantial lot of wealthy people incl nobility .


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SteveOifer

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Reply with quote  #336 
Quote:
Dobermans (for example) were developed using a number of different dogs, but when you breed a Doberman to a Doberman, the resulting litter does not produce German Pinschers, Weimaraners, Rotties, and Dobermans. It does not produce the breeds used in early development -- it only produces Dobermans, the true breeding descendant.


The above excerpt taken from a blog.

In the photo from your book (post #1) it clearly shows the Anatolian influence, yet you claim, nearly identical status in form to the Mastiff proper.

Do you begin to recognize the dissonance in your comparative evaluations?



AMMA supposedly 1/8 Anatolian

VS


Anatolian Shepherd 100%

VS

The real deal!


Nuff said!

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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #337 
This is one of the more compelling posts I've seen on this thread, despite the tone.  According to the site, this breeder has produced roughly 250 puppies in less than 12 years.  (I read and counted.)  That's a lot of puppies and obviously an enterprise rather than hobby.

In this particular instance, I think monetary gain is reasonably put forth as a motivating factor.  Without the costs of showing and/or health testing and assuming AM's breed and whelp with relative ease, I think it could be said that breeding AM's could be a profitable enterprise.  That said, there are more than a handful of EM breeders who could be put into the same basket.

I'm sorry but, even with 8 pages of hard debate, I still have no argument with the creation of new "breeds" other than the general belief that the U.S. is already overrun with homeless animals.  Honestly, to be completely objective, my gut tells me that moratoriums should be placed on ALL breeding until such time as the supply no longer exceeds the demand.  But that's another debate... and I'm not up to it.  

As I've said in the past, God did not create the world in 6 days and drop purebreds into our laps on the 7th.  What we call purebreds today did not evolve naturally.  Our EM is no less a product of mankind's manipulation than the AM.  What the motivating factor behind the AM is I can't address because I don't know. Therefore, neither can I judge it.  Much as I'd like to think that need and functionality were the driving forces behind any breed, in truth many came about out of sheer whimsy and were perpetuated by fancy.  Nothing wrong with that -- but let's at least admit it.

Regarding naming, I've already stated that I don't think we will ever be able to protect the name "Mastiff" in that it's a widely used general term.  If we're determined to stick with it, we're acknowledging the consequences in advance and agreeing to accept them.  

From the International Trademark Association:

Generic terms are common words or terms, often found in the dictionary, that identify products and services and are not specific to any particular source. It is not possible to register as a trademark a term that is generic for the goods/services identified in the application. If a trademark becomes generic, often as a result of improper use, rights in the mark may no longer be enforceable



Quote:
Originally Posted by erikam
Anthony if anyone is laughing, it is the folks that sold you a cross-bred mutt and convinced you that it was some kind of improved model. I have this really really nice bridge Anthony, it looks JUST LIKE the one in Brooklyn...LMAO !!   You paid $$ for a dog of unknown origin you bought from a cabal, you don't know your history, you don't know your facts, and you don't know what went into the dog you own. Those AMA breeders are breeding HUNDREDS of these crosses, and they LOVE gullible people like you and they love taking your MONEY.  Who do you think is REALLY having a laugh all the way to the bank Anthony ?  HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA the joke is on you !

Go count the pups on this site:
http://www.deepwoodmastiffs.com/A-Zpups.htm

These folks are asking $1,500 a pup. I counted to 100 before I got to the letter K. Let's See Tony, that's $150,000 and we're not even 1/2 way through the alphabet !!! And NO health testing (save some $$ there HAHA !!), this breeder requires puppy buyers sign a spay/neuter agreement, gee I wonder how that is enforced over 100's of puppies HAHAHAHAHA. Apparently you have LOTS of company in the gullible camp Tony, HAHAHAHAHHA !!!!!!    And now you wrote the book on 'em WHOO-hoo.  I hope it is as "fact filled" as your prior posts LOL. Just out of curiosity, Tony, any PEDIGREES in that book of yours ? Do we have pedigrees for the foundation animals

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Reply with quote  #338 
What gives us the right to determine whether someone else's needs/wants are valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikam

... If someone can read through this list
http://www.fci.be/nomenclature.aspx and STILL thinks they need a new breed, then they want something that really doesn't exist and should consider that metal dog robot.

What gives us the right to determine whether someone else's needs/wants are valid?

And BTW, in that list, it is "Bulldog", and "Mastiff". Not English Bulldog, and not English Mastiff.

Of course, those are the breeds' official names which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided are appropriate and stand by despite the fact that we can exercise little to no control over how they are used.  We've made our decision with eyes open and in full understanding of the consequences, one of which we are witnessing and dealing with in this very thread.  

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Reply with quote  #339 
Being from New England myself and living in Georgia, I'm well aware of the logistics.  The fact is that the U.S. euthanizes millions of dogs every year.  Are any of the New England states going to financially back the transportation of and find loving homes for millions annually?

I couldn't agree more on advocating/enforcing laws but, until such time as that happens (and the resistance seen even on this board is very discouraging), the fact remains the U.S. is overrun by homeless animals and, like it or not, New England is part of the U.S.?

   

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikam
(and BTW, the US is not over run with homeless animals - here in New England, we SHIP IN dogs from the south. What is lacking is decent animal control/spay neuter laws, enforcement of housing and treatment and cruelty laws)

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Reply with quote  #340 
The breed  name ‘Mastiff’ is there and does not need our protection because it’s protected by the rules of the leading canine bodies which shall not allow another breed to be registered as ‘The Mastiff’ . Simple & fine . That the name Mastiff (partly) may be used to designate other (new) breeds is not to avoid as provisionally the Mastiff community not yet dictates the whole world and its use of words .


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Reply with quote  #341 
Quote:
There will be ZERO need for correction if the media simply states it was a "Mastiff" as they would be 100% correct, an AM ISSSSS a MASTIFF! Geez, what is so hard about understanding this. hahahaha. The "Mastiff" you speak of techinically has no name. The AKC breed "Mastiff" has been given a name for a dog TYPE, not a BREED!!!


The above quote from the author of the new book on the AMMA posted earlier on this thread.

If the AMMA is identical to the Mastiff, or almost identical (as some have amended their faulty jargon in print), then in the mind of this esteemed author of the book on this crossbred creation, it ISSSSS a MASTIFF!

Yet, if one challenges the impact of that false belief on the general public, or questions the negative impact on the Mastiff proper by such erroneous claims, we are met with disbelief & resentment!

If a designer dog is made to be a Mastiff, by those who support it, and the name is taken from the Mastiff and used as the formal name for the new creation, then the public will see the new creation as.......A MASTIFF!

That's the goal and that's the agenda!

Believe it, or not!



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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #342 
SteveO, none of your post makes any sense dude. You talk yourself around in circles. While others on this thread still debate and petition against the AM, at least some of them have actual points and developed thoughts. The images you have "hand selected" to demonstrate make me question your integrity. I can gather images of EM's that have longer, thinner snouts, and I for damn sure have plenty of images of AMs who have huge blocky heads and strong bones like the royal EM shown in the last image. I would offer you the same challenge as I presented before... I'll show you some different images of "mastiff" and let you pick out the ones you think are AMs and EMs (or just Ms as you like to call them). But in terms of talking/debating, I'm gonna have to end that with you sir, as I am gaining nothing more from your perspective that I don't already know.

Karen, THANK you for giving an honest outlook on the whole situation. I really and honestly respect the new posts you've made on page 8. Sincerely, no sarcasm at all, but the honest truth. I dig it!

Marcel, thank you for at least coming to the table with an actual viewpoint based on educated material that you have read. While I do not agree with some of the paragraphs or references that you presented, I do appreciate the value that you brought to the debate. I'll go back in a minute to review your post again and give a retort from my angle, but I'll admit that we are both on the same page on MANY aspects, we just choose to word things in a different manner to promote favor.. totally human, and the way to debate ;-)
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Reply with quote  #343 
Sorry you don't like what you hear from me and the images used to show the 1/8th Anatolian percentage as purely a myth, or wishful thinking.

No doubt this post will also be unintelligible to you!

Yes, variability exists in Mastiffs as well, but most of it stemming from breeder stamping, or poor breeding, rather than from recent crosses to any Anatolian.

As stated, the history of the modern Mastiff has not been without crosses, but those crosses were designed to either reinvigorate type & soundness (DDB cross), or to reconstitute a weakened number (Bullmastiff cross), or to add size, head & substance (Saint cross) etc. These breeds being the repository of Mastiff traits, that could be tapped if the Mastiff ran aground.

All geared towards eventually eliminating the traits of the cross and enhancing the breed's historical qualities, based on the standard.

Why was the Anatolian used?

To reduce drool!




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For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
KarenK

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Reply with quote  #344 
If someone asks me for a Kleenex, I'm obliged to give them a Kleenex tissue.  If someone asks me simply for a tissue, I assume any brand will do.  Likewise for "Coke" and "soda".  Please, at a minimum, admit that the word "Mastiff", in the absence of any clarifying context, is subject to interpretation... just as in H's story... "What kind?"

I truly understand having emotional ties to history and a name but is it really practical?  For instance, as it is, any Tibetan, Neo, Bull, American, etc. involved in a bite incident is usually reported as being "a Mastiff" -- technically accurate -- yet we foam at the mouths when they are reported as such because we have elected to reserve that term for ourselves... and we can't.

Generic terms are common words or terms, often found in the dictionary, that identify products and services and are not specific to any particular source. It is not possible to register as a trademark a term that is generic for the goods/services identified in the application. If a trademark becomes generic, often as a result of improper use, rights in the mark may no longer be enforceable

Mastiff

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 

Dogs[edit source | editbeta]

mastiff is a type of large dog often used as guard dogs. Mastiff breeds include:

  • English Mastiff, the breed most commonly referred to when speaking of a "Mastiff"; originated as a Roman war dog
  • Alpine Mastiff, an extinct breed originating in Switzerland
  • American Mastiff, a breed of dog originating in the United States
  • Anatolian Mastiff, an ancient breed of dog originating in Turkey —see Anatolian Shepherd Dog
  • Argentinian Mastiff, or Dogo Argentino a mastiff developed in Argentina for large game-hunting
  • Boerboel, a breed of dog originating in South Africa
  • Bordeaux Mastiff or French Mastiff, two alternative names for the Dogue de Bordeaux, one of the most ancient French breeds
  • Brazilian Mastiff, another name for the Fila Brasileiro a breed of dog originating in Brazil
  • Bullmastiff, said to be a cross between the English Mastiff and the Bulldog
  • Cane Corso Mastiff, or Italian Mastiff, breed which originated in Italy and best known as the Cane Corso
  • Cuban Mastiff, an extinct breed resembling a Bullmastiff, originating in Cuba
  • German Mastiff, better known as Great Dane, a breed of dog originating in Germany
  • Japanese Mastiff, also known as Tosa Inu, bred as Japanese fighting dogs
  • Korean Mastiff, also known as Dosa Gae, a breed of Korea bred from Tosa Inu and European breeds
  • Neapolitan Mastiff, an ancient breed of dog originating in Italy
  • Gran Mastín de Borínquen, also known as the Puerto Rican Mastiff, a breed of dog originating in Puerto Rico
  • Pakistani Mastiff, also known as the Bully Kutta, developed for bear and dog fighting, lately introduced outside of Pakistan, as a safeguard dog
  • Perro de Presa Canario, a breed originating in the Canary Islands of Spain
  • Portuguese Mastiff or Alentejo Mastiff, alternative names for the Rafeiro do Alentejo, a breed of dog originating in the Portuguese region of Alentejo
  • Pyrenean Mastiff, a guardian breed of the Spanish Pyrenees
  • Rottweiler, a guardian breed, police dog, guide dog, search and rescue dog
  • South African Mastiff or Boerboel, also known as Boerboel, a breed of dog originating in South Africa
  • Spanish Mastiff, an ancient breed of dog originating in Spain
  • Tibetan Mastiff, an ancient breed of dog originating in Tibet
  • Abruzzese Mastiff, a breed related to, but distinct from the Maremmano-Abruzzese from the Italian region of the Abruzzi
  • Kumaon Mastiff, a rare breed of dog originating in India

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Reply with quote  #345 
... and the winner is!  I had no idea!  As if it wasn't convoluted enough already. 



Mastiff (company)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 


Mastiff
IndustryVideo games
Founded2002
HeadquartersTokyoJapan
San FranciscoUSA
Key peopleBill Swartz, Mika Hayashi, Danny Hammett, Charles Van
Websitehttp://www.mastiff-games.com

Mastiff is an American publisher of video games, with offices located in both Tokyo and San Francisco.
The executive staff includes Bill Swartz, Mika Hayashi, Danny Hammett and Charles Van.    
<scroll right>                                        


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Reply with quote  #346 
This reminds me of the Iranians, who wish to be treated with equal respect and dialog, not sanctions, while they continue take hostages when they can, support Al Qaeda & to build their atomic bomb!

I know the comparison is odious regarding the scope of one issue in comparison to the other, yet the thinking is the same.

The AMMA folks want equal footing in this dialog and have never once given an inch regarding any concerns we've raised.

No one speaks about the wording of the false claims made past & present. All we see are convoluted rationalizations to justify every act & word used to validate their cross.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
theamericanmastiff

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Reply with quote  #347 

Marcel,  here's what I've got after digesting your post (which I did respect) :-D

1. I'm glad you understand that the word Mastiff is utilized in multiple ways, but I do still disagree that it is deemed a "specific" breed of current time. In my mind, this would be like calling people Persians in modern time. Throughout time, a large group of people have diversified and developed more close-knit and individualized social structures giving way to new modern designations like Indian, Turkish, etc. For me, this is the same for ancient dog breeds. Sure a registry can "call" a breed whatever they want, but that doesn't make it "the dog" of ancient times. If that was the case, then perhaps we shall begin to rework other ancient type canines and just name them the same thing as they were called centuries ago.

Therfore I still stand by my statement that the word "Mastiff" isn't exactly the best suited name for the common English type mastiff in America. I never refer to any mastiff I meat as just a "mastiff".

2."The breed name Mastiff may sound poor planning but it isn’t because it was the first KC recognized breed which carried that name . Those which came later on had to differentiate their name , p ex Bull Mastiff , &c .

This is exactly what the AM has done, right? The AM was developed through selective breeding and given the name "American" mastiff as it could not just be called "mastiff" due to the AKC policy, correct? So why is the AM such a big hate factor on this site, and especially this thread? It was developed much in the way of any other "mastiff" counterpart, given a proper description, and registered as such. I'm just wondering why there isn't more hate threads about bull mastiffs, neos, tibetans, alpines, french...etc.

3. It's awesome to know that we are on the same page with the regeneration of the modern mastiff as being a so called "mutt" according to others on this site based on the sire not being an OEM. In regards to answering the question about the Anatolian presence in the AM's gene pool, I cannot answer that as I was not involved in the creation of the breeding program. Those answers can only be answered by a select few people, I unfortunately am not one of them. This would be great historical information to know, so if and when it is documented and or released, I would be interested in reading about it as well.


4. In terms of cross-breeding to create the AM, as you are implying that it was done naively only in an effort to improve upon one characteristic isn't accurate. There were many aspects that went into the breeding program of the American Mastiff. In terms of doing a cross-breeding to change one aspect without changing others... that is totally doable. It wont happen on the first breeding, but throughout generations that objective can be accomplished. I.e. short hair terrier, wire hair terrier. Same dog, same characteristics at the core, different hair.

5. Yes, you are correct that breed registry helps in keeping an official record of sorts in terms of breeding programs, BUT this does not have any reflection on the quality of dog one obtains. I want to make that very clear. If anyone finds my statement to be inaccurate then go to any petstore that still sells those poor puppymill pups and you can read all about their AKC certifications. Breeding programs that don't affiliate with any registry can be some of the TOP programs in the world. Of course this is probably as many as AKC or CKC progams as well, so I'm not even attempting to say that non-affiliated breeders produce better stock, I'm simply stating the being a part of a registry has no reflection on quality of dogs. Before registries were created, dogs were bred for potential and continually bred for perfection in the needs of their desired working area. Registries were not needed, just great dogs. :-D

6. Drool: lol. I laugh, becuase, let's be honest...none of us on here have a problem with our dogs' kisses or slobber. I stand firm on the tighter lip = less drool though. There's no way around that. In terms of other factors that create drool, sure... an AM owner will tell you that their pup drips at the face when they really want that hotdog in your hand, or when it's super duper hot, and of course when they decide to carry their water in their mouth instead of drinking it, then come and lay their head in your lap. YUP, all the mastiffs in the world fit that bill, hands down. hahaha. Just part of their charm, but I will say, you will find few and far between AMs that are as drooly as an OEM, due to their tighter/dryer mouth.

7. The look: you state it would be acurate to say that there is a similar look when comparing poor specimens of both breeds. Well, I don't know about you, but I never view any dog as a poor specimen... of course I don't stand strong behind breed registries and standards either, so that may have something to do with it. ;-) I'm all about how awesome the dog is in health, personality, and ability, but not whether or not they have a white toe, or a freckle on their belly, lol. I will say, you do have a point about the public being able to improve upon the breed through shows. I totally got where you were coming form on that one. I will say though, that it's a slippery slope once a breed takes that route though because then more and more inbreeding occurs in an effort to keep those winning blood lines, which will inevitably introduce more healthy issues in future generations. I'm not saying the AM is immune to that, I'm just showing the adverse reactions of showing dogs.

8. No AM owner or breeder tries to promote the AM as a better breed, dog, or companion than the EM. Ask any AM owner or breeder about EMs and AMs and NMs and FMs, and all the Ms, hahaha, and they will tell you they love them all and they all rock. :-D Picking an AM is just a personal choice similar to choosing a Bull or Neo over an EM, it's just personal preference in what the person wants out of the new family member.

9. In terms of all the history stuff, yes there is no way to prove that the breed went extinct because there were still specimens out there, while insufficient to the "standard", they were still out there. Crossing in the Saint, and other giant breeds the OEM was rejuvenated.

I know you will still not agree with some of the things I've stated, but at least we can debate about the AM, EM and "M" on a civil and factual basis. :-D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveOifer

The AMMA folks want equal footing in this dialog and have never once given an inch regarding any concerns we've raised.

Yet again, I ask... did MCOA ever formally approach them to ask for a constructive discussion of these concerns?  (Will I get an answer this time?)

No one speaks about the wording of the false claims made past & present. All we see are convoluted rationalizations to justify every act & word used to validate their cross.

I can control no one but myself.  If, after attempting to find a resolution, I find am powerless to effect a change, I am obliged to (1) make modifications on my own part to minimize my own damage or (2) accept it.  To do neither is to choose to play victim and not conducive to mental soundness.  


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Reply with quote  #349 
That stings a little and, for the first time in this thread, I'm feeling a little defensive.  

Is it really what you meant to say to me?  The horrid reality is that "no kill" doesn't necessarily translate to "quality lives".  What about the desperately miserable souls who suffer while we work toward our "achievable goal"?  Do we build more shelters to accommodate them so they can live long lives in concrete block cells?  Do we load the terrified helpless victims into vans to relocate them to places where we think they might fare better?  Better yet... let's use Amtrak to maintain a constant river of miserable unwanted creatures from one part of the country to another because there's a never ending supply down here.  I'm from Connecticut and it's a pretty small state and there's a heck of a lot bigger supply than there is New England demand I can promise you!

I may propose a different way of achieving it but don't dare tell me I don't believe no-kill is an achievable goal!!     

Quote:
Originally Posted by erikam
... there is some feeling out there (which I am well aware you don't agree with) that no kill is an achievable goal. ... 

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Reply with quote  #350 
Quote:
Yet again, I ask... did MCOA ever formally approach them to ask for a constructive discussion of these concerns?  (Will I get an answer this time?)


I honestly don't know. But if they didn't, does it change the erroneous facts & intent of what the AMMA folks put out as gospel?

Must I contact every person who throws a stone through my window and hope for a constructive dialogue?

Must we hold the victim responsible for the act of the criminal?

This isn't Iran!

There's a dialogue taking place right now on this forum.

It was the result of this thread.

Let's see where it leads, but I'm not optimistic, based on the position of the AMMA folks and their thinking.


Quote:
I never view any dog as a poor specimen... of course I don't stand strong behind breed registries and standards either, so that may have something to do with it.


When a proponent of a crossbred designer dog debates someone who represents a purebred dog, attitudes count in the ability to see beyond your own nose. If you don't believe strongly in standards, or registries, and view all dogs as God's gift to the universe, then where is any conversation, debate, discussion, dialogue, headed concerning following certain tenets that represent a breed's identity? Of course the AMMA fancier would like to drag us down to their level, then they've won! Their argument is flooded in loose history and convoluted logic, which under magnification is purely irrational.

The Anatolian cross is not a Mastiff, contrary to the false logic used by Mr. A. Williams!

It's the same argument that a proponent of a Malamute X Anatolian cross would make to a purebred Malamute defender.




__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
TEST YOUR DOGS!
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